400EX porting

[chad502ex]

what chaw'll think on my porting?



anyone else got any porting pictures for the 400ex?

[chad502ex]

the drg signature series

[stc416rider]

is there anyway to tell if ur engines ported without lookin in it

[chad502ex]

Good question.

I'd say it would be hard to tell.

[JOEX]

Will you post a pic of stock ports and point out what you did to make it better?

[chad502ex]

here's a picture of stock.

the major difference hear, besides better shape, is that the short side radius is rolled forward more and the floor of the ports surface area is increased allowing more of the charge to be pulled lower in the ports. This keeps the mainstream from washing the walls high when WOT. With the floor pushed outward, more of the triangular mainstream off the needle during WOT entered the cylinder for filling. Velocities in this port is already high from factory. It's the cross-sectional choke point is what inhibits top end performance. The strength of DRG is that it uses dimensional porting for high velocities while allowing for larger cross sectional for top end gains.

remember:
cfm = cross-sectional times velocity (generally speaking)

Secondly, ever seen the front of an aircraft carrier? Look over the DRG porting picture above and notice the front look of the runner how the leading edge looks similiar to a carrier leading edge knifing thru. That leading edge is not only used to knife, but also accounts for the ships height above water-line. I use the runner leading edge to adjust the where-abouts of my mainstream charge to keep it lower in the port. ;)

[figair]

Chad so I take it,you think your good.......:D
lol,Thats port looks sweet,nice job......................

[Dupontster]

Send me the head and I'll try it out and let you know how ya did...:D PM me for address...

[Dupontster]

Chad....Got a carb recommendation for a 400EX?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Dupontster
Chad....Got a carb recommendation for a 400EX?

I used the 40mm Lectron PowerJet carb for a long time. Many ppl I've built for use the 450R carb and they like it too.

[1fst400]

"velocity" port job.

[chad502ex]

thx for posting a pic of the HVP.

DRG also offers full DRG for the 400ex with HVP posted on the website.



Any other porting picutes for the 400ex application?

[figair]

Chad Pm me if you can, Im wondering what ya charge to do a crf head.Thanks Eddie

[JOEX]

Originally posted by chad502ex
here's a picture of stock.

the major difference hear, besides better shape, is that the short side radius is rolled forward more and the floor of the ports surface area is increased allowing more of the charge to be pulled lower in the ports. This keeps the mainstream from washing the walls high when WOT. With the floor pushed outward, more of the triangular mainstream off the needle during WOT entered the cylinder for filling. Velocities in this port is already high from factory. It's the cross-sectional choke point is what inhibits top end performance. The strength of DRG is that it uses dimensional porting for high velocities while allowing for larger cross sectional for top end gains.

remember:
cfm = cross-sectional times velocity (generally speaking)

Secondly, ever seen the front of an aircraft carrier? Look over the DRG porting picture above and notice the front look of the runner how the leading edge looks similiar to a carrier leading edge knifing thru. That leading edge is not only used to knife, but also accounts for the ships height above water-line. I use the runner leading edge to adjust the where-abouts of my mainstream charge to keep it lower in the port. ;)
Okay....

Would you mind educating us (me, at least) a bit rather than reeling off some technobabble that very few (me again) understand? This kind of stuff interests me, kinda like reading a book:)

Please define or describe (diagrams and comparisons pics would work great):

'better shape'

'short side radius'

'rolled forward'

'floor of the ports surface'

'the charge'

And it's relation to:

'pulled lower in the ports'

This is cool stuff to learn about:)

[TURBO-530R]

Originally posted by Dupontster
Chad....Got a carb recommendation for a 400EX? KMS EFI

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by JOEX
Okay....

Would you mind educating us (me, at least) a bit rather than reeling off some technobabble that very few (me again) understand? This kind of stuff interests me, kinda like reading a book:)

Please define or describe (diagrams and comparisons pics would work great):

'better shape'

'short side radius'

'rolled forward'

'floor of the ports surface'

'the charge'

And it's relation to:

'pulled lower in the ports'

This is cool stuff to learn about:)

good questions again:

better shape referring to a linear approach (something with dimensions) having better shape for flow than and egg port shape that is difficult to maintain velocities thru the choke point.

short side radius is, in this case, the port floor radius before it enters the port bowl before the valve. imagine the port, cross-sectionally, in this case the port floor radius into the cylinder is shorter in length than the upper length. Shhh, don't tell anyone, but one of the best attributes to the shape of DRG porting is that the upper port length and the lower floor port length is nearly the same. The same length roof and floor keeps equal vaccuum on the charge and centers the mainstream charge in the port, keeping the fuel in constant suspension.

rolling the radius forward is making the floor short side radius have a less dramatic longer arc from the port flange to the valve. it should be as smooth as possible, since the mixture (charge) doesn't like changing direction around a tight bend.

the charge is referred to the A/F mixture with momentum. Keeping the charge low in the port allows the charge to be vaccuumed into the cylinder for filling easier than the charge being high in the ports and having more of a chance to splash into the wall and fall out of suspension

[JOEX]

Originally posted by chad502ex
good questions again:

better shape referring to a linear approach (something with dimensions) having better shape for flow than and egg port shape that is difficult to maintain velocities thru the choke point.

short side radius is, in this case, the port floor radius before it enters the port bowl before the valve. imagine the port, cross-sectionally, in this case the port floor radius into the cylinder is shorter in length than the upper length. Shhh, don't tell anyone, but one of the best attributes to the shape of DRG porting is that the upper port length and the lower floor port length is nearly the same. The same length roof and floor keeps equal vaccuum on the charge and centers the mainstream charge in the port, keeping the fuel in constant suspension.

rolling the radius forward is making the floor short side radius have a less dramatic longer arc from the port flange to the valve. it should be as smooth as possible, since the mixture (charge) doesn't like changing direction around a tight bend.

the charge is referred to the A/F mixture with momentum. Keeping the charge low in the port allows the charge to be vaccuumed into the cylinder for filling easier than the charge being high in the ports and having more of a chance to splash into the wall and fall out of suspension
Gotta read this a few more times... I think I grasped a couple of points but most of it is still over my head:ermm:

[figair]

what he said:confused:

[chad502ex]

glad to help, if i did. :confused:

don't be afraid to ask. it's key to effective communication where one path is transmitting the information and the other path is receiving the information. when the questions stop, so does the communication

[Mobile Dyno]

The DRG porting on the 400ex is Awesome. I have the DRG porting on mine. Chads work is great. He knows his engines...I wake them up...:D

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Mobile Dyno
The DRG porting on the 400ex is Awesome. I have the DRG porting on mine. Chads work is great. He knows his engines...I wake them up...:D

thanks.

[JOEX]

Can porting be done to perform best in a specific RPM range?

How well do 'clean up' port jobs perform?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by JOEX
Can porting be done to perform best in a specific RPM range?

How well do 'clean up' port jobs perform?

All the porters I know ask all their customers the same question everytime:

"what type of riding do you do most?"

For DRG porting, I don't need to ask cause of the increased velocities down low with the linear acceleration while maintaining cross-sectional area for top end.


Clean up jobs, IMHO doesnt offer much to power. To me, your either port or not. again JMHO.

[B-rad D]

what is the hp gain

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by B-rad D
what is the hp gain

this particular port is for an 435EX that will hopefully be put to the dyno test next week.

stay tuned.

[JOEX]

Originally posted by chad502ex
All the porters I know ask all their customers the same question everytime:

"what type of riding do you do most?"

For DRG porting, I don't need to ask cause of the increased velocities down low with the linear acceleration while maintaining cross-sectional area for top end.


Clean up jobs, IMHO doesnt offer much to power. To me, your either port or not. again JMHO.
I'm not an engine builder but i've viewed it with a 'rob Paul to pay Peter' theory: If you want high rpm HP you'll lose HP at low rpm and vice versa. I'm sure there's some gray area in there but generally isn't that the case?

I suppose a good port job can generate gains throughout the rpm range but couldn't certain port jobs be done gain better gains in specific rpm ranges?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by JOEX
I'm not an engine builder but i've viewed it with a 'rob Paul to pay Peter' theory: If you want high rpm HP you'll lose HP at low rpm and vice versa. I'm sure there's some gray area in there but generally isn't that the case?

I suppose a good port job can generate gains throughout the rpm range but couldn't certain port jobs be done gain better gains in specific rpm ranges?

Oh yes, there are port jobs that contain mostly low end, and/or mostly top end. But why, when you can have your cake and eat it too?

I guess if someone asked me, i could as any porter could port for a specific range- no problem.

[JOEX]

Originally posted by chad502ex
Oh yes, there are port jobs that contain mostly low end, and/or mostly top end. But why, when you can have your cake and eat it too?

I guess if someone asked me, i could as any porter could port for a specific range- no problem.
With the responses i'm reading I guess my questions are too vague:ermm:

If I had a product that I thought was better than anybody elses and wanted to share it with the public freely i'd have some facts and data to back it up. Have yet to see that in this thread, everything is just technobabble that very few understand. Or is it just me?

If anyone can describe in laymans terms what Chad is talking about please do, i'd like to know. I'd like to know how a flow bench works but i'm afraid to ask:scary:

If you don't hear from me for about a week i'm not ignoring this, i'm on vacation at the dunes :D

[chad502ex]

That kewl, JOEX!

i guess i'm not sure specifically your questions.

I'm planning on getting a flow bench from SuperFlow to flow in my new porting, but from the measurements I've taken from a velocity meter, my porting flowed >10% more velocity a various valve lift that the comparison "Pro" heads that i was testing against.

[jdboy]

Is there any benefit in porting a stock engine?

[rummerd]

While I am sure your porting is the greatest thing since sliced bread...... a few things you say interested me.
First of all, if you are not using a flow bench, how are you getting your "velocity meter" readings? What is a velocity meter, who makes it and how does it work? I am familiar with a flow bench.
Secondly, being no engine porting master, who else puts a knife edge on their port work? I don't recall any porting work I have ever had done come back with knife edges. I remember reading that is bad for flow. I don't see many airplanes with knife edged wings either.
So, if you don't have a flow bench, do you have a dyno? Probably not. So, how exactly are you testing your porting against anyone elses? And who's porting are you testing against?
Forgive me if I seem a bit jaded here, but I really have not read a whole lot in your posts that lead me to believe your claims. The way heads come from the factory leaves a huge amount of power to be gained from a simple "clean up" as the castings are really pretty rough, expecially the area directly under the valves.

Porting is the one place you most definately should not be looking for a deal. Good porting will make an engine perform as you want it too. Bad porting can turn your motor into scrap.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by jdboy
Is there any benefit in porting a stock engine?

not really until other modifications are used in conjection to compliment the porting. I would think it would be best to purchased a high compression piston, pipe, filter, or cam to enhance the power output before you add porting to bring all those components together.

[rummerd]

I think I need to bust out the pancake bunny on this thread!

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by rummerd
While I am sure your porting is the greatest thing since sliced bread...... a few things you say interested me.
First of all, if you are not using a flow bench, how are you getting your "velocity meter" readings? What is a velocity meter, who makes it and how does it work? I am familiar with a flow bench.
Secondly, being no engine porting master, who else puts a knife edge on their port work? I don't recall any porting work I have ever had done come back with knife edges. I remember reading that is bad for flow. I don't see many airplanes with knife edged wings either.
So, if you don't have a flow bench, do you have a dyno? Probably not. So, how exactly are you testing your porting against anyone elses? And who's porting are you testing against?
Forgive me if I seem a bit jaded here, but I really have not read a whole lot in your posts that lead me to believe your claims. The way heads come from the factory leaves a huge amount of power to be gained from a simple "clean up" as the castings are really pretty rough, expecially the area directly under the valves.

Porting is the one place you most definately should not be looking for a deal. Good porting will make an engine perform as you want it too. Bad porting can turn your motor into scrap.

good questions you have.

my velocity readings were recorded from a handheld velocity meter. I have already posted information of the meter somewhere on this site. If your interested in a maker, model number, ect. I'd have to dig that up at home for ya. These velocity readings were recorded at different valve lifts with constant 100cfm (max VE for displacement) vaccuum through both intake ports. I will be getting a Superflow bench real soon to support my veloccity metering. These flow benches don't cost as must as ppl think.

The knife runner is not sharp. It may appear a bit sharp in the photo because the surfaces are sanding in, but the edge would no where near cut your finger if your ran your finger hard across the leading edge. An air foil on the runner edge is good but can cause a push towards the outside of the port. An air foil on a wing push is desireable, but in the constrants of a port is can have adverse effects on vectoring. It's desirable to keep the edge as shart as possible WITHOUT causing HUGE variations with the intake charge VECTORS.

The attached image is a perfect example of the real intent of the leading edge of the runner. As on any aircraft carrier, the leading edge of the ship assists in the ships ride height above water-line. The concave curve of the ships leading edge determines the pull downward or push upward. The leading edge in a port can act the same. Refer back to the stock 400ex picture I posted in the thread beginning and notice where the runner leading edge center is located, then look how my "center" is lower. a lower center assists in the downward pull of the intake charge towards the floor of the port. this is exactly where the charge should be since it'll be pulled real fast into the cylinder. a runner centered causes a splash-down effect on the port walls in the bowl area due to the limited vaccuum of the single cylinder.

I dyno test all my builds. All of strokers and stoke bores are making killing power.

[rummerd]

Well this all makes perfect sense to me now. How much to have my aircraft carrier ported?
Seriously, I am not sure that anything you have posted makes any sense to me at all. Keeping in mind that I am not by any means a subject matter expert here..... I still want to know what builders you test against? I may be wrong, but your velocity meter sounds a lot like my shop vac. Is that what you are using, a shop vac and some sort of hand held wind meter? When I say a knife edge, I am not talking about a sharp blade, but a blade like shape. I am not too sure I believe your claims. It is very easy to toss out a lot of promises of horsepower gains, better torque figures, and "better than the Pro engine builders" statements, but I dont see where you have any proof. Any riders winning with your setup? Do you do your testing "in house" or are you just some guy trying to make a buck here? Just because you have a higher velocity of air, does not mean you are making an improvement to the way an engine breathes. If your velocity flowmeter sucks 100 cfm, does it matter what your ports look like? I would argue that you are not addressing the volume you are flowing. If I am moving 100 cfm of air through a household air duct, I wont have much velocity, but if I move that same 100 cfm through a garden hose, my velocity will really be high, wont it? Which flows better?
Water and air flow differently. I fail to see what an aircraft carrier has to do with the ports inside an engine. Something else to consider, an intake charge flows differently than just air alone. It is my understanding that you need some turbulance to keep your fuel properly suspended in your intake charge. That is one of the advantages fuel injection has over carburated engines. You do not have to take into account keeping a fuel/air mixture flowing, you only need to find the best way to get air to your engine. Your fuel is injected directly at the intake valve in most cases in the fine, perfectly atomized state ready for combustion.
There is a lot more to making an engine breath than just hogging out the ports.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by rummerd
Well this all makes perfect sense to me now. How much to have my aircraft carrier ported?
Seriously, I am not sure that anything you have posted makes any sense to me at all. Keeping in mind that I am not by any means a subject matter expert here..... I still want to know what builders you test against? I may be wrong, but your velocity meter sounds a lot like my shop vac. Is that what you are using, a shop vac and some sort of hand held wind meter? When I say a knife edge, I am not talking about a sharp blade, but a blade like shape. I am not too sure I believe your claims. It is very easy to toss out a lot of promises of horsepower gains, better torque figures, and "better than the Pro engine builders" statements, but I dont see where you have any proof. Any riders winning with your setup? Do you do your testing "in house" or are you just some guy trying to make a buck here? Just because you have a higher velocity of air, does not mean you are making an improvement to the way an engine breathes. If your velocity flowmeter sucks 100 cfm, does it matter what your ports look like? I would argue that you are not addressing the volume you are flowing. If I am moving 100 cfm of air through a household air duct, I wont have much velocity, but if I move that same 100 cfm through a garden hose, my velocity will really be high, wont it? Which flows better?
Water and air flow differently. I fail to see what an aircraft carrier has to do with the ports inside an engine. Something else to consider, an intake charge flows differently than just air alone. It is my understanding that you need some turbulance to keep your fuel properly suspended in your intake charge. That is one of the advantages fuel injection has over carburated engines. You do not have to take into account keeping a fuel/air mixture flowing, you only need to find the best way to get air to your engine. Your fuel is injected directly at the intake valve in most cases in the fine, perfectly atomized state ready for combustion.
There is a lot more to making an engine breath than just hogging out the ports.

WOW, you are making me detail a theisis here.


a ported aircraft carrier, huh? an aircraft carrier leading edge was suppose to be synonym to the port runner edge since it can assist in "steering" the charge.

I will not put "comparisons" out on the table to slandering anyones work, so i won't be specific with company names, but lets just say that one was a builder whos been at the forefront of building winning quads that race up Pikes Peak, and the other builds Pro MX. As far as whose machine have i build that wins? Ask Michael Ouel, a Pro Canadian MX racer whom just signed me up to port his 450R, ask Jim Keglovich whom won 1st for yast years season drag'n my 530R, ask mike nash whom just got his DRG TWIN to race XC, and the other ppl's builds i've posted dyno runs of. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I'm better than the rest, or better equiped than these businesses with internal machine shops and store fronts, I'm just implying that I've been designing strokers for years and "building" Pro power to boot. My dynos posted all over the net proves this. One major difference with my services is that I have no business store front and overhead that other builders have; so my pricing can be a bit lower. I use a nascar machinist 5 minutes up my road so i can get anything machined to my tolerances. I do not toss out promises that I can't deliver either. All the builds I've done are supplied with dyno results and track results too. Am I a guy trying to make a buck? Aren't we all? I offer my services, mainly by word of mouth and the reputation of my strokers pushing the limits with reliability for years (except my last 550R that let go cause of valve float). Many of my customers are repeat business and a few are lined up in my garage as we speak. I'm not into this to make bank, I do this stuff on the side. By day, I'm an electrical engineer that tests products for compliance for the FCC, the MILITARY, and global countries for electromagnetic intereference. If you had any history on this website, I would not be explaining who I was and why I do this.

If you really want to know the truth about porting: getting the intake charge into the engine is the easiest part. It's maintaining velocities, keeping the flow from disconnecting, reducing heavy swirl, keeping the charge suspended and atomized, positioning the choke point, reducing the SSR, considering volume, equalizing the port wall lengths, balance turbulane on the exhaust port, and others that contribute to making Pro power. Far more to it that hogging out ports as you put it.

[CHEVYZ]

Uh oh, I think that I just learned something. :eek:

[rummerd]

Well, my history is in the sport, not in a websight. So if you are a "big fish" here, I have not heard of your work competing at the upper levels of the sport. I have really lost interest in this whole thread. Seems like you have a bit of a following here and in your local area, but I doubt you are producing the power and reliability of the Pros. Just my opinion. I learned a long time ago that a flowbench was required for any kind of decent porting.

[400exbilly]

I am wanting to port and polish my head any of you atv riders wanting to give me some directions or some tips thanks Billy

[Dupontster]

Read above? :D

[chad502ex]

I doubt you are producing the power and reliability of the Pros.

I'm not a big fish here either, just a member like you. Feel free to exit the thread at any time since you are unable to supply the peeps with any pictures of porting, dynos to post, or any explaination to the physics involved, or the research you've developed to validate your claims.

reliability of Pros? are you kidding? when has a Pro build ever lasted more than one race? your history in the sport? what history?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Dupontster
Read above? :D

you from Southern MAryland? what city?

where you ride?

Did you read last sundays washington post cover story about ATV's high-jacking in Laurel MD?

just wondering...

[rummerd]

I am not making any claims, nor am I selling anything. Every motor I have assembled (for myself) has lasted a good long time. Duncan Racing puts a pretty good motor together, I have had a couple of motors built by them. They have stock like reliability. I said up front I am not an engine builder. I do not make my living in this industry, it is my hobby, but I take it pretty seriously. That being said, how many of those pro motors that get rebuilt after one race need it? I would say none, more likely the reason they do a tear down and rebuild is to make sure that it lasts for the next race. If someone wanted to rebuild my motor for me every weekend and it cost me nothing, I think I would let them do it, wouldn't you? Guess what, a lot of those pro riders are testing different setups under race conditions, to find out what works in the real world. Just because it makes good numbers on a dyno, does not mean it will work well in the field. Ever hear of a "dyno queen"? I bet you have. I have used a dyno in the past as a tuning tool and I have dabbled at my own port work. I have not made any claims other than that my OPINION is that if you are not using a flow bench, then you aren't doing my port work. So you can take your shop vac and your little jet of water and call that proof positive that your porting works and sell it to whoever buys it. There is one born every minute. If you want to post dyno runs fine, people who know better understand that comparing dyno runs is pointless, unless you are using it as a tuning tool, not an advertisement. I am still waiting on you to bust out the physics to prove your claims. I have a very easy way to increase your velocity, get a bigger shop vac.

[Dupontster]

Originally posted by chad502ex
you from Southern MAryland? what city?

where you ride?

Did you read last sundays washington post cover story about ATV's high-jacking in Laurel MD?

just wondering...

We are WAY down almost on the Va. border....In fact we ride more in Va. than we do in Md...Down by Budds Creek but we aren't too proud of that..:D ..We met you at Rausch Creek last year at the ATV Riders.com ride...
No I didn't read the Wash Post but I still have it here....I'll check it out....Was it in the Metro section?

[chad502ex]

That being said, how many of those pro motors that get rebuilt after one race need it? I would say none, more likely the reason they do a tear down and rebuild is to make sure that it lasts for the next race.
wrong. I talk with many Pro builders on the phone for hours on end, and even in the Pits at the race track, and they all tell me that a Pro race engine is not setup for reliability. The Pro builds are all setup to run one race as lean as possible with cams that push the valvetrain soo hard that a rebuild is a must!
One other thing: a motor is electric, and engine is a combustion pump.
I agree that a flow bench could assist in breaking a barrier that you may not be able to quantify with Peto tubes, which is why I want one, but part of the reason I do this is to gain up on what has been defined as "industry standard". I was very suprised that my velocities were 10% higher than the comparisons using a shop vac too, which is why i obviously am making the Pro level power I am, and my freewheel dyno numbers fall into Pro ranges; so, why wouldn't Peto tubes be enough to quantify the velocities at different lifts? Ya know, there are computer programs available to model the velocities and cfms from port dimensions, camshaft selection, valve size and displacement and I have them. So, what about the builders that use the modeling, then use handheld meters to compare the data? Isn't this how HONDA starts their porting, by using software analysis?

I think it's worthless trying to convince you to think outside the box. You think it can't be done cause you havn't done it. When you purchased porting, were you supplied with any data to support the claims that the porting works? I bet no..... As I've already said, my porting is supplied with data indicating that the porting works!

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Dupontster
We are WAY down almost on the Va. border....In fact we ride more in Va. than we do in Md...Down by Budds Creek but we aren't too proud of that..:D ..We met you at Rausch Creek last year at the ATV Riders.com ride...
No I didn't read the Wash Post but I still have it here....I'll check it out....Was it in the Metro section?

front page of the post.

Oh, Rausch Creek! what was your name again?

[400exrules]

wow, this thread has made me feel so dumb lol


if i put an 11:1 piston in with stock bore, should i get my valves ported and polished?

[chad502ex]

wow, this thread has made me feel so dumb lol


if i put an 11:1 piston in with stock bore, should i get my valves ported and polished?
I apologize that you feel that way. If it weren't for rumored getting his panting in a knot and misunderstanding that this thread was intended to be a central location and discussion for all porting techniques (not just mine) with data, pictures and dyno runs to show the differences of what ppl pay, you may not be feeling this way. Once upon a time, I was ripped off from a respectable builder whom charged me $800 to scratch the surface of the port and "clean" it up. Then, finding out the hard way that the porting was crap made me realize that I could research myself and self educate to save big money and aggravation. Just because someone has a flow bench or dyno, it does not mean that they are able to use another tool. a tool is a tool, and without understanding that a handheld velocity stick tube can equate the same as a flow bench you never be able to save some money and do better yourself.

[400exrules]

k......so should i get my valves ported or not. how noticeable would it be with a stock bore, with an 11:1 piston

and you've been know for your insanely fast 400ex. so, how far can you take the stock rod. will my 1999 stock rod be able to handle a JE 11:1 piston?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 400exrules
k......so should i get my valves ported or not. how noticeable would it be with a stock bore, with an 11:1 piston

and you've been know for your insanely fast 400ex. so, how far can you take the stock rod. will my 1999 stock rod be able to handle a JE 11:1 piston?

thanks. your piston is no problem for your stock rod.

and porting should be one of the last thing you do to bring all the components together more efficiently

[rummerd]

well, my name is rummerd, and I believe the phrase your searching for is "panties in a wad". Now that I have that cleared up, my panties are not in a wad and you don't know what I have or have not done in the past, what I have built or bought either for that matter. You are certainly right about a tool being a tool in sooo many ways. I would rather have a mechanic who has a complete tool box with the knowledge how to use all those tools. You can certainly get by with not having all the tools, as you claim. Did I get detailed info with any porting or engine kit that I purchased? You betcha, before I handed over my money. I did/ do a lot of research before I purchase, talk to others who have use the product/service I am considering, take a look at facilities, etc.
It seems like this has just about degraded into name calling internet BS at this point. I guess its all good until someone disagrees with you. Please make note that I did not insult you or make fun of your lack of spelling ability. I was probably a bit sarcastic, but not disrespectful. Anyhow, this thread is all yours, so make your sales pitch.

[chad502ex]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rummerd
[B]Did I get detailed info with any porting or engine kit that I purchased? You betcha, before I handed over my money. I did/ do a lot of research before I purchase, talk to others who have use the product/service I am considering, take a look at facilities, etc. [quote]


now this is the type of information that everyone want to know and use. Kinda like what I was asking from everyone when the thread was started. Sure, there was a shameless plug in the beginning, but I also asked for others to input and share their experiences. I wasn't asking for someone to come into my thread and crap on my lawn.

I need no sales pitch. I provide services to a selected few at my pace and don't need a port sales pitch to support a living.

[rummerd]

Soooooo...... As long as I like your porting, its ok to post, but if I tell you what I really think then I am crapping on your lawn.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by rummerd
Soooooo...... As long as I like your porting, its ok to post, but if I tell you what I really think then I am crapping on your lawn.

you've already made yourself clear that you are done with this thread, and that you don't prefer my porting. All perfectly fine with me. I wasn't asking for criticism from you, I was aking for you and others to supply what you do know, not hearsay or rantings on what you don't know. Got a picture, post it. Got test data, post it. Got dyno information to support porting claims, post it. Got an opinion with something you were not successful in, keep it to yourself. Got an opinion about my technique, keep it to yourself.

until your last post you have offered nothing to others on how to port except specifying that it can't be done without a bench. No technique, no theory, nothing but you've heard. So, because you havn't made good power with porting yourself, and you must pay a shop to port for you, you think it can't be done. why would you think that a flowbench is a requirement to produce power when many do it better with other tools everyday of the week? Who says that having a flowbench would enable the builder to build power instantly, when most can't even find the on/off switch? Sound basic an on/off switch, but suprisingly, getting a flowbench and turning it on doesn't tickle the grey matter with all the science and theory about what to do next.

[fasterthantim]

is anyone else tired of rummerd questioning chads claims as if he's a liar? what a prick!

[rummerd]

#1- Never called anyone a liar, I am allowed to disagree and voice my opinions. Welcome to America.

#2- I still fail to see any hard data or proof, if you say it works for you and the people who run your stuff, good on ya.

#3- Who said I did not make good power with my own porting? I definately get more power with someone else's porting, I will admit that. As far as paying for it, yep, I have paid to have porting done. I have also had it done for me as a small sponsorship. At another time, I declined a similar deal, I was not going advertise or use the work offered to me, I did not like it. He was the kind of guy who probably could not turn on the flowbench.

You can tell me to keep my opinions to myself, but you are pretty much wasting your time. Once again, welcome to America.


what a prick!
You have no idea how true that is. I just love an internet toughguy.

[boricua]

ho - ly crap! :eek2:

i gotta tell ya, this was good reading for me. maybe because i understand porting. i see both sides of the coin. i've been waiting for someone to explain their version or theory of porting and another to contest it.....the wait is over :chinese:

rummerd, good job for questioning his knowledge and trying to find out if he has earned his fame or merely stepped on the shoulders of others.....

chad, good job to you too for keeping up! all your answers made sense to me and i can relate to your theories. i think it would have helped if you had a cut-away pic from the side so people could better understand; shape, floors, bowls, balanced/equal length ports, etc....

i think people can be a bit narrow minded sometimes, the belief of "if it aint broke, dont fix it" or the "i want what he has" or my favorite, " monkey see, monkey do" .....that no one wants or dares to experiment with trying to "head" (haha) in a new direction.....
just my two pennies

tired: good luck and to the both of you:tired:

[cals400ex]

i know chad is making good power. i have seen several of his builds on a reliable dyno. i see you think a flowbench is a must have. i agree they are a valuable tool. however, the highest flowing head does not mean it will make the most power. i would bet money that chads porting is as good as many pros, especially what they send the "average buyer." this does not include those individuals who has farr, byrd, natalie, etc on the back of their shirt....

[boricua]

good point, i think the goal here is to achieve max efficiency through high volume and high velocity. you want good velocity throughout rpm range and the volume to supply the engine. lack of one or the other will yield less gains. i have seen the extremes of both on a flowbench and on a dyno, not good.

[rummerd]

Could be that I was not very good about making my point. I too have seen "dyno queens" that put down very good numbers on paper, yet fail to perform well in the field. A flowbench, a dyno, the different software packages, are all tools to be used. Just like the rock crawler crowd uses the RTI (ramp travel index) as a way to measure how well a rig flexes. If we build a rig to get a perfect 1000 on the ramp, that means it will rock the Rubicon, right?
I don't know for sure about the ATV world, but if a guy pays for a builders best work, he should get it, I know I did. A pro rider wins because he rides better than everyone else, and because his bike setup is as close to perfect as you can get. How many races are won by the fastest machine?
I like Duncan's work. I assemble my own engines, but will pay Duncan Racing every time to do my porting. I also think ESR does good work(at least they did 6 years ago) when I was running one of their 310 kits. My snowmobiles are ported by a guy who uses a CNC machine to do the porting and then does the finish work by hand. It is extrememly difficult to get a significant amount of usable power over stock on the Ski-Doo sleds, but there are a few guys who can get it done.
I will tell you that I would not let CT Racing wash my bike. I have seen fast machines from CT Racing, but for the most part, I think that this is the kind of guy that will give the average buyer the shaft.

[boricua]

so your point was not to insult anyones abilities or accomplishments but rather asking for proof that the "work" does as good as promised........correct? maybe you came across a bit harsh and that led to a little scuffle. give him time. if his work is as good as he says, it will get around. of course a lot slower. he doesnt have a hugh company name paving the way for him.
im sure you've heard of people who do very good work but have no following therefore no credability (spelling??).

anyway, im running out of pennies......

[1fst400]

Originally posted by rummerd
It is extrememly difficult to get a significant amount of usable power over stock on the Ski-Doo sleds, but there are a few guys who can get it done.



I could under stand your point of view till you brot out this line of crap. Bit off topic but. We (cupple of dad/me budies) race them sleds on the grass, ski-doo of course. it doesent take much to make these things rip. We have a seld that does over 120 in under 5 seconds on the 8th mile.


what im trying to say is. Your full of bull crap! Go pick on someone eltse.

[rummerd]

1fst400.... I should not even bother but.... My skidoo rips right from the factory. My point was not that Skidoo's suck, far from it. They are so good, it takes quite a bit of knowledge and skill to make them significantly better. But, thanks for your keen insight anyhow. Another internet tough guy. If you smell bull crap, I suggest you start looking a little closer to your own keyboard for the source.

[1fst400]

are you doubting that I race drag sleds?

[boricua]

:huh

WOW..........

:ermm:

[chad502ex]

where is this going?
:confused:

[witech]

Chad I see you to have seen the light when it comes to porting.
As working on strictly Cannondales I have seen the good, bad and the ugly that can come from the so called professional porting world. Several of us have proven that money or big names have nothing to do with making power when it comes to porting. Until last year we never saw a dale break 45hp no matter how much money was thrown at it. It wasnt until us nobodies started experimenting on our own that the real potential was realized. Now 50plus ponies can be extracted from just port work alone using 100% stock parts. Dyno charts are posted in the dyno forum. Of course our results were only as high as they were because Cannondales came with high performance engine parts straight from the factory. With other brands you need to replace many internal parts to get the same effects.
Anyways sorry for being off topic a little but just wanted to give props to those who think outside the box and are willing to share info. Good job.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by witech
Chad I see you to have seen the light when it comes to porting.
As working on strictly Cannondales I have seen the good, bad and the ugly that can come from the so called professional porting world. Several of us have proven that money or big names have nothing to do with making power when it comes to porting. Until last year we never saw a dale break 45hp no matter how much money was thrown at it. It wasnt until us nobodies started experimenting on our own that the real potential was realized. Now 50plus ponies can be extracted from just port work alone using 100% stock parts. Dyno charts are posted in the dyno forum. Of course our results were only as high as they were because Cannondales came with high performance engine parts straight from the factory. With other brands you need to replace many internal parts to get the same effects.
Anyways sorry for being off topic a little but just wanted to give props to those who think outside the box and are willing to share info. Good job.

Thanks for your words of encouragement. Everyone else too.

[chad502ex]

bump,..


anyone else with porting pictures, porting techniques, data, or info?