Hotcams [Archive] - ATV Riders Forum

400exBro

08-09-2002, 08:20 PM

i think that if you drop in a new cam that you should always always, harden the rockers, stiff the spring and see if you need to put a heavier timing chain in......
look what happen to x-rider when he didn't do it to hes 416 and a high lift cam i think, he ended up dropping a vavle and now he has to pay major bucks to get the ex running again....

if you want all round power go with the wb all round cam or a tc cam they are good cams, i have seen a coupld of guys like weirdcinq and some others run hot cams talk to them and see what they think.
i think duration has something to do with the lift of the came or sumthing like that, let me look in the automotive enclyopida and i will get back to you, but some one else well answer before me, if ya do go right a head

Bro

Dave400ex

08-09-2002, 08:26 PM

With the TC Cam Harden Rockers and Valve Springs are not needed. I have asked him many times and he said I don`t need them. He has been building Motors for over 20 years so I trust him. lol

Black400

08-09-2002, 09:04 PM

What about on the WB:confused:

Dave400ex

08-09-2002, 09:07 PM

I think you have to get the Valve Springs.

Black400

08-09-2002, 09:30 PM

What will happen if you dont have them:(

KingRage12

08-10-2002, 12:02 AM

Alright guys, I will try and help you out here, having trouble sleeping anyways. First off, its all common sense. If you think you are going to get more power from a cam, or a miracle without doing major mods, you are sadly mistaken. You will see some difference maybe in a specific torque curve with a small cam, such as the hot cams 1 and 2, but nothing dramatic. If you want an engine that makes a definate change in power and reliability is a factor, you must consider a couple of things. Heres the common sense part.
1. Honda put a rev box on for a reason, and no its not to hold you back.
2. People will sell you anything to take your money! Thats a fact, I have learned it over the years.
Any time you ad a larger duration camshaft, you alter the maximum rpm. This is provided there is sufficient air and fuel flow. Adding duration also lowers static compression, which causes the low power to suffer, which can be compesated by compression. But when you add compression and more duration, the rpm curve, or power curve moves up. That pesky limiter is there because somewhere around 8000 rpm, a phenomenen called valve float occurs. This is caused from heavy valve train components and weak valve springs, common in aged motors. I have dropped in plenty of cams and I am telling you now, DO NOT DO IT WITHOUT HARDFACING ROCKERS, AND INSTALLING SPRINGS AND RETAINERS. You are only asking for trouble down the road. And for all of the curious bob readers, I have dialed the web 450, TC National, and the white Bros drop in and they are all made be web, and very, very, Very close to each other. On my dyno, there was absolutly no difference in any of them. I have my own cams ground, and will not sell one, or build an engine without springs and retainers, and hardfacing rockers. PERIOD. I could not imagine someone coming up to me at a race, telling me his motor was tapping and had lost power. I always have a ton of people at the race trailer looking at my sponser quads and I would be major embarrased. Just remember, if these "drop in" cams were so great, why didnt Honda put them in the first place. Hmmm. Now I guarantee I get some flack over that remark, but thats my belief, and my engines win races, and run hard. Good Luck !!!! King Rage www.rageatv.com

400exBro

08-10-2002, 08:38 AM

that is a excellent point !!!!
that is what i was trying to explain, i suggest what he said (kingrage12) plus if you have the head apart why not do it now and do it right instead of wating your time later on when the engine gets old and worn which casue you to probably drop a vavle, if you want a cam and have it done right then do it right by installing the stronger vavles, hard face rockers and look into the heavier timing chain from sparks...........
Bro

Dave400ex

08-10-2002, 08:55 AM

I agree with you Guys but when Tom Carlson tells me I don`t need Heavy Duty Springs or Harden Rockers what am I suppose to say oh no I think I need them? He has been Building motors forever I think I trust him.

400exBro

08-10-2002, 02:04 PM

if he says it is okay and he had no problems than i guess it will work out with out having done that extra stuff..

does he recommend hard facing the rocker and all that with the tc mx cam or the one that tommy runs in his 406??
i am looking at that cam and a 11.1 or 12.1 compersion and am wondering what cam will suit that well ?
Bro

KingRage12

08-10-2002, 08:26 PM

Well it sounds like you trust your motor builder, Tom Carlson, and thats great. I have the same following with my group. All I am doing is sharing with you the time and money and experience others have spent with me over the years. I like the old saying, "Better Safe Than Sorry". I also like to win and finish races. Another point is that the TC and the Web shelf cams are not really that aggressive. The cams we run in our racing engines have very steep ramp rates and they require the hardfacing. So do what you will, Go fast or be last. Rage ATV. Oh and I will put my 2 cents in on the cause and effect of not running the good stuff.
The chrome face wears off the rocker, and the hardened metal starts to wear or "flat lobe" the cam. Now you have bad rockers, and a bad cam as well as metal shavings all over your motor. Sucks for you. Anyway, good luck, and email me if you need any more info. My phone number is on my webpage if I can help anymore. www.rageatv.com

Dave400ex

08-11-2002, 09:44 AM

400exBro, When I have talked to him Harden Rockers and Springs are not needed and I don`t think Tommy is running them. He has had no problems either.

When I get ready to do Motor work but if he says I don`t need the Springs and Rockers I won`t get them. Greg Trew is running the same Motor he told me and he has had no problems with his motor and is doing very well in Pro Production GNCC.

TRX250XFIRE

08-11-2002, 11:24 AM

Good thing i found this post today, i am getting a 426 as we speak and i was just about to go buy a xr400 cam to give it a little more bite. but theres no way im going to put one in if there is the chance of it screwing up my motor, so i would like to know if any of u can about how much will the springs and harder rocker and all that good stuff run me?? just parts price not labor included. Hey thanks alot,
Cody

Dave400ex

08-11-2002, 12:56 PM

The XR400 Cam will be just fine. That is a very Mild Cam though. A TC will also be fine without that stuff as I remember 465Stroker having his XC Cam in his 465 for 2 years with no wear on the Springs, Rockers, or the Cam.

A4StrokeGuy

08-11-2002, 03:08 PM

This topic has caught my attention. I feel if your going to put say a piston and cam in your motor. thats around $250-$300, if your so cheap u don't want to put hardened rockers and valve springs in it your asking for it. Call LRD or sparks ask them what they think of those mods w/o hardened rockers and valve springs. MR tom carlson may say u don't need them but i guarantee if u go and look at say... Doug Gust's motor i'll put money on it that theres hardened rockers in it. I race with a gentleman with a TC 440 National Motor, he told me he put around 2500 into that baby, now in his case y and in the world would u not put in springs and rockers. If and when i get a motor built if i'm told i don't need hardened rockers and springs i'll make sure that person does not touch my motor. It comes down to a insurance basically, sure its expensive to have insurance on your quad when it gets ripped its nice to have, same thing with rockers and springs, u may not need them now, but 6 months, 1-2 years down the road u'll be wishing u had it.

Jordan

Zero Z400

08-11-2002, 04:17 PM

My uncle has been working on motor for almost 40years, he says spring r a neccessity. I don't think its a good idea not to to put in new springs, i think it is best to build reliabilty into ur motor. Hardened rockers i think can wait but not for to long, i would just buy the cam and springs, then save my money for rockers. My .02cents

Later

PsychoDave

08-11-2002, 04:45 PM

i agree with putting hard face rockers and HD springs....but....i put an XR400 cam in my 400ex engine! the xrcam is a little different but it is what comes stock in an XR dirt bike. You DO NOT need to do anything to your rockers or springs....unless someone can PROVE that an XR dirt bike has hardened rockers an HD springs in it already (stock). The XR cam is a stock cam that gives a little bit more to the engine. Someone Prove me wrong PLEASE!!.

let me clarify a little....i put the XR cam and 416 piston in my quad with very little hours on my engine. Whenever you change cams you should change rockers and springs due to fatigue and wear from the original cam.

I am not flaming on anyone!!!!!

KingRage12

08-11-2002, 05:18 PM

I think you are all getting the point. I am basically telling you that you are not going to win a race by squeezing out 1 or 2 horses out of an engine. That is not the way it works in motocross. Now I know some of you will argue that point, but motocross is 5% machine, 95%rider. And what is the sense in spending money twice. You will put in the XR cam, and tell yourself, WOW I can really tell a huge difference. I will be blazing the trails or winning my next race because of the change I made. NOT. Oh, and warrior man let me put an end to your confusion because you obviously think the Mr Tommy hung the moon. And thats fine, but the air cooled honda engine is what he has been specializing in for the last 15 years. I would hope he is good at them, and he is. I have just never seen an engine from his shop produce a lot of power, or no more that anyone else. I have one of his 416 here and a 465, and I am not impressed. Run about the same as one of our riders on an LRD motor. They are all fine! The main thing that I am getting across to the readers from an engine builder prospective is that to make real power, takes a dramatic change, and one would have to make upgrades to there existing valvetrain for dependability. Dont think I am hazing on Tom, because I have respect for the man, but in our series here, his motors, that people spend a lot of money on finish behind the 416s that we build with our own grind cam and ...... a stock carb! We will have some riders in the B class this year running these engines. Just make up your mind, if you want a bitty change, throw in an xr cam, and a slip on and 155 main and have fun. But if you really want to rock, install a J&E .80 piston, hard face rockers, titanium retainers with high tension springs, and a web 479, megacycle x2, or RageATV Z100 cam, with only a small amount of clean porting, and you will have a reall reason for a rev box. And a 16 front tooth sprocket will be a must. We like the 416 better, because of the wide power band, the 425 is OK, but not our choice. Good Luck with your decision!!;)

Dave400ex

08-11-2002, 08:34 PM

Yes I know Tom is not the best out there. When I call and ask him about Motors though I always trust him because he knows what he is doing. Now I got a question just I want to get your Opinion. He told me not to run a Synthetic because I would be replacing many Clutches to just run a normal Petroleum Blend oil that is 20w50. He also said to run the 20w50 year round. What you think about that? Also he said running higher octane gas would be better.

Now I know what your talking about on these Rockers and Valve Springs. I have talked to many Guys with TC Cams and none of them seem to run that stuff. I asked Tom and he said their was no need the stock honda rockers are already hard. When I talked to Hetricks he was gonna put in a TC Cam and still no Harden Rockers or Springs. So what am I suppose to do? If I get Harden Rockers and Springs and the Cam is not suppose to have them will the Cam wear down?

KingRage12

08-12-2002, 06:30 AM

Well to answer you question on the motor oil issue,
Most automotive synthetic blend oils have moly and teflon additives that are not friendly to our wet clutch situation. Motul and Bel Ray and other motorcycle oils take this into consideration when they are blended and most are very good. Engine oil weight! there is a reason that your manual tells you to run different weights at different times of the year but instead of explaining to you why, you can research that answer a bit more on the net. I will tell you what I prefer and you go from there...I run a vavoline vr1 10-30 racing oil. Usually a couple of bucks a quart. I have found this oil to have a low foaming property, which is what oil does when its areated, and it has a great heat tolerence. I like to run the 10-30 because it helps the engine dissipates heat quicker that the 20-50. Running a 50/50 mixture of 107+ octance fuel also keeps the engine running cooler and consistant. We also change the oil every race in our engines.
Alright on the valve train issue, and I am done on this one, tired of typing. Imagine a cam and lifter being a tire going over a speed bump. The faster the tire goes over the speed bump the harder it hits the ground and the better shock you need. When the camshaft lift is increased, the lobe height is taller. What this means to you is the spring gets depressed further and for a longer period of time. The higher the engine revs, the harder it is for the stock, sometimes well used and overheated, springs to keep up. When this happens the rocker begins to bounce on the cam surface, which in turn starts to eat both components away. I have not seen a case in one of these engines where high spring pressure or hardfacing cause and significant wear. In every case where I have seen flatting of the camshaft has been attributted to high lift cams with stock springs. Just dont take the Chance!
By the way on the oil issue, you might find this interesting, I dont know if any of you notice when you start a cold engine but when you revv it before its warmed completely you might here a slight sqealing sound coming from the right side of the crankcase. That nice little noise is from the oil pump cavitating, which in short means the oil is to thick for it to pump when its cold. The pump looses its prime and starts mixing air with the oil and pumping it to the top of the valve train. Not good on a cold engine. WARM THOSE ENGINES AT IDLE FOR 7 MINUTES! Just my two cents. Dee

Dave400ex

08-12-2002, 08:15 AM

Ok well then Synthetic I know now is not the way to go. I think I am gonna get the Maxima Premium Oil which is a Petroleum Blend with High Temperature Additive System. Now I think I will just stay from from half Synthetic and everything just get normal Petroleum. I am only not sure on weight. I have read guys run 20w50 during summer and 10w40 during the winter. Is it ok to run the 20w50 year round or not?

400exBro

08-12-2002, 10:03 AM

what about running kendal full synthetic motorcycle oil i think a 5w-50 for all year round racing/riding will this cause my clutch to fry???
thnxs
Bro

MIKE400EX

08-12-2002, 02:30 PM

KingRage12, why do you feel that a 416 would have a broader powerband than a 425 in identically prepped engines (other than bore size of course)? Also, would you share "your" cam specs. with us? Thanks!

KingRage12

08-13-2002, 05:51 AM

The Kendel oil is great, I used to run the same stuff but it is hard to come by in this area. One of the most important things that I can share with you on the motor oil issue is not to mix different oils in the engine. In other words if your going to change weights or name brands, I would get enough oil to flush the old oil completely out. The reasoning behind this is sometimes manufactures install additives in one brand that will not mix with another, and the end results is the oil breaks down and burns up very quickly.
On the cubic inch question, hmmm, lets see. This is due to a combination of things. The engine was designed in the first place for much smaller cc, and the head and valve combination was designed for an air flow profile of the smaller combination. Enlarging the engine parametters is easy, valves, porting ect, but camming this motor is a bear. You see all of the cam manufactures only grind cams based on 107 degree lobe centers, and they are very limited on the ramp rate of the cam. Now you all should know that when you increase cubic inches or cc/s, in most cases the cams profile should be increased. There is also the crank issue, remember this engine has a counter balancer that was balanced 85mm piston, add 2 or three mm of aluminum forged piston and guess whats going to happen. Vibration, and this kills the engines ability to rev smoothly. Balancing the crank is an option but very expensive. I only do this on the 425, 440 and 479s that I have put together. Well I hope that answers you question though. Will I give out the specifications on the cams I have web grind me, well call Curtis or Tom Carlson and see if they will give you theres. Too much time and research to just throw out there. I will tell you that mine is a much more aggressive cam that the TC and is relatively close to the Sparks race, just not as much duration.

400exBro

08-13-2002, 03:55 PM

i am sticking with full synthetic for good and kendall to, all our viechles run syenthic oils but just different brands and from the dealer ship so i won't mix em up, with kendall i get a deal with a box of 12 bottles for 42 cnd i think is extremely cheap compraed to 12$ cnd for 1.
thnxs
Bro

Dave400ex

08-13-2002, 04:14 PM

I think I am gonna run the Maxima Premium Oil. I will ask a few more Guys about it and maybe call Tom about it but I think that`s what I will run.

400exBro

08-13-2002, 07:49 PM

i hear that the maxium oil is pretty good oil, digger doug uses it in his drz 400 and i think dana, and some other run it in their quads and seem to like the oil, i would try if so many people are using it, are going with the sythentic blend or the minerail oil stuff???
Bro

Dave400ex

08-13-2002, 07:59 PM

Tom told me to not run Synthetic. I am gonna get the Petroleum Blend which is the mineral stuff. lol. I am gonna try calling Tom to check on this Oil before I buy it and I may call Duncan if Tom isn`t there.

Ex_Rider43

08-13-2002, 10:13 PM

everybody now know that you have tu run hardened rockers and stiffers springs but nobody answered the question of this thread...whats the best cam ....what is the cam that deliver the most power.

KingRage12

08-14-2002, 07:01 AM

To answer you question about the cam, the best cam for what application in what type of motor. I will assume that you are asking about a stock 400 bore with minor mods pipe, k&n and ect. Then the answer would be the web 450/451 or the hot cams stage 2. I think this will get most of you where you want to be. These cams both work good in engines up to 416cc. Theres you answer and good luck.

MIKE400EX

08-14-2002, 07:09 AM

There's a few BIG misconceptions here! There is no "one" best cam for everybody. The best cam depends upon engine mods, rider, track, conditions and just about any other variable you can think of. Be honest with yourself, when and under what conditions do you want your quad to run the best - then get a cam that fits that set of parameters, or give that info to your trusted engine builder. The cam that makes the most peak power is probably not the cam you really need.
No, hardfaced rockers and stiffer springs are NOT always a necessity or recommended - they also have many drawbacks. If an engine builder insists you put stiffer springs and hardfaced rockers in your pretty much stock EX, he is wasting your money and not working in YOUR best interest - find another engine builder.

Dave400ex

08-14-2002, 08:32 AM

MIKE400EX, He hit the nail on the head. What he said in the last paragraph is what I have been trying to say.

KingRage12

08-14-2002, 11:54 AM

Lets break down what your saying here!

A. There's a few BIG misconceptions here! There is no "one" best cam for everybody. The best cam depends upon engine mods, rider, track, conditions and just about any other variable you can think of.!!!!!______________________________________-
The origional post was if any one has used the w/b cam or the hot cam stage 2 and how did we like them. He obviously was not trying to install a flat track profile cam. I have install both of the cams and a web 450/451 and every one of them run virtually identical. Increase slight amount of low, a lot of mid, and will pull in most cases right through the rev limiter. This is the next step for someone looking for a bit more from there 400. But I have also seen everyone of them, including the TC cam flat lobe or wear rocker faces very quickly in racing applications. Springs are a must and "do not hurt anything". Springs are the main reason these things happen, it just never hurts to hardface the rockers!
_____________________________________________
B. Be honest with yourself, when and under what conditions do you want your quad to run the best - then get a cam that fits that set of parameters, or give that info to your trusted engine builder. The cam that makes the most peak power is probably not the cam you really need.
No, hardfaced rockers and stiffer springs are NOT always a necessity or recommended - they also have many drawbacks. If an engine builder insists you put stiffer springs and hardfaced rockers in your pretty much stock EX, he is wasting your money and not working in YOUR best interest - find another engine builder.__________________________________________ _-

The one good point that you made is the use of hardened rockers or springs is not always needed. Stock applications dont with this engine. But>>> The TC cam, web, and the hot cams will allow the engine to produce much more HPs when tuned properly and will cause them to rev much higher. This is when the valve train improvements are needed. When I build an engine to suit a riders needs, I find out up front what HIS intentions are. Most cases in my buisness, is they want to beat there buddy up the hill or need more speed out of the corners. Simple bolt on crap is not going to make a miracle happen. If it was that easy, everyone would rip! I am only sharing with you my experiences here with engine building, and I have built more the 35 400exs this year and every customer in every case is very happy. Believe me my best interest is my reputation, and watching these kids rip around on the track winning races on the engines I build.
In my opinion, only the xr cam, hot cams stage 1, and the megacycle x1 cam are the only ones that are marketed that do not require stronger springs and rockers. PERIOD!

WYO330EXRIDA

08-14-2002, 12:27 PM

what do you think of my set-up King rage
Do you think that I could have benifited from maybe a wilder cam
(I am trying to build a dependable 4-stroke dune machine)
I started with the 300ex because I got it cheap and I love the way I feel riding it 155 pounds 5'7"

Dave400ex

08-14-2002, 01:16 PM

Well KingRage12 knows what he is talking about. I`m just not sure what to do if I go to get a TC Cam and Tom says no need for Springs or Rockers. What am I gonna say no I think I need them? I may ask him if I call about the Oil but the Shop is closed all week for them to get ready for Loretta`s.

I also may call Duncan about Oil because I know they are big fans of Maxima. When I do that I want to ask about their Cams, Springs, Rockers, Pistons, and Stuff. The Guy who works on our Quads is a Duncan Dealer and he thinks they are the best Motor Builders so I need to find out a setup from them.

KingRage12

08-14-2002, 10:48 PM

Hey WYO330, sounds like you have a pretty good set up for a 300. I built my wife one last year with a 12.5 to 1 300 with the same setup. Real peppy machine! I was a tight wad when I built hers, because after all these years of me riding, she just in the last year decided to start riding. I put 400ex a-arms on the front with blaster shocks, and a 350 swingarm and shock on the back. It handles pretty good for what it is. Great bike!
Anyhow WARRIOR MAN, you can talk to Tom and I know what he will tell you, but if I were you, I would at least put the kibblewhite spring kit in just to be same. Take it from me, they cost around a 100 bucks or so, but you can be assured that you wont tap a valve with the piston when you overev on accident. Better safe than sorry. You know, I think the last time I talk to Tom, he was suggesting that you run Castrol 20/50. Been a while though, but I know he is like I am about the synthetic. Dont use it. !!! unless its a motorcycle wet clutch blend. Good Luck!!!:)

KingRage12

08-14-2002, 11:03 PM

By the way WYO330,
The only one that I know that is more radical if memory serves me right is the web 240 grind. Thats a pretty healthy stick, and would require somewhere around 13 to 1 comp to work right in your application. That about kills your idea of a dependable 4 stroke. When you get up there in the RRRs with that much compression your really asking for problems unless you were racing it on ice, or oval track where you could inspect it every race. If you just stick it in right now with what you have, you low end performance will go to crap, it wont even be fun to ride. I would stick with what you have. Was the head ported and combustion chamber worked over with the rebuild was done. I have found that little motor likes to be velocity ported with epoxy in the intake short side radius. Let me know!

Blizzard24

08-14-2002, 11:50 PM

I am no motor builder at all, so what I am saying may be the furthest things from the truth, but here goes. If i am not mistaking, the Hotcams are cast as opposed to cams like Web which are welded then machined to the correct grind. Being that the hotcams are cast they are softer than the grind cams. Why would rockers have to be hardsurfaced if they did not need to be hardsurfaced for the stock cam? Now I know w the grind cams, the weld material is MUCH harder and starts wearing the rockers prematurely, am I mistaking in saying this?

As far as the valve springs are concerned... I totally agree that w ANY cam, the springs should be changed to stiffer springs to prevent valve float at higher RPM's, especially if you are changing the rev box, and the lift duration of the cam.

just my $.02

WYO330EXRIDA

08-15-2002, 08:09 AM

KING RAGE, It didn't get ported, but I think I will get that done in Vegas when I'm there. What do you think? Will I loose any low end or gain it because the head on the 300 is the same as the 250x and it was even small for that. So I am thinking that will realy make my engine come alive. Am I thinking right? Do I also wan to get it polished?

KingRage12

08-15-2002, 08:39 AM

Mr Raptor,
I think you misunderstand what I am saying here, let me clarify some for you. The stage 2 cam has a cam profile that is very very close to the web and the TC, both of these cams have more lift and a much steeper ramp rate than the stockers, or the stage 1 hot cam. MY EXPERIENCE is flat lobing and worn rockers, I agree with the hardness of the metal, but with the cam surface machined right, I dont think it really matters. Springs are a definate, rockers hardened is just good insurance, with the BIGGER CAMS, 345 LIFT, AND SOMEWHERE AROUND 250 @50 DURATION. Our enemy is valve float, also where the rocker actually bounces like a hammer on the cam lobe when an engine is revved very high. Another point that I did not mention is heat dissapation in these air cooled engines. 9 out of the 10 400s that come through my shop have been overheated at some point or another. Pretty evident when the guides and metal dowls are discolored with that pretty rainbow effect. Guess what this does to the springs, an old trick years ago that we did on our drag cars to lower them, was to heat the coil springs on the front end. You could set that baby on the ground if you werent careful. Anyway, its very good to install new springs and the moly or titanuim retainers are very light, and lower the odds of you floating the valve train. We do lots of things to dissapate the heat as well, things like.
a. header wrap
b. running 50% pump gas, 50% 110 race fuel
c. Air Scoops directed at cylinder head,
d. Air Scoop on the oil cooler.
Just a few ideas! Need to get back to work, later. :p

KingRage12

08-15-2002, 08:46 AM

WYO 330,
If done properly and matched to the components in you motor, flowing and porting the head will give you a tad more throttle response and a smoother pull on the top end. I would do it and have you head porter relieve the schrouding in the combustion chamber around the valves. I always polish the chamber and the exhaust ports just because I take pride in my work. Tell you the truth, I havent seen a noticable diffence on the dyno! But I know if does not hurt, just dont polish the intake, finish it with about 200 grit. Hope that helps. :)

Dave400ex

08-15-2002, 09:04 AM

Yes I know. I was worried about the Springs and Rockers before. When he said I didn`t need them I was happy, but I want to get some if he will sell them to me just to be safe.

Yeah on the Oil I know he said no Synthetic and a 20/50, but he said any brand and I asked about Maxima he said sure. I just want to make sure I get the right Maxima oil though. I don`t want to get something wrong I just want to ask if the Premium is good.

Blizzard24

08-15-2002, 02:14 PM

I totally understand what you are saying KINGRAGE... again I am by no means a motor builder, so I am trying to understand the hardened rockers on a cast cam, thats all.

LRD_27

08-18-2002, 02:50 PM

If I got a cam.Do you have to change other thing when you put it????

KingRage12

08-18-2002, 05:48 PM

For a stage one or a small cam, you can get away without any major mods but you will definatly benefit from a higher compression ratio. But again, for the smaller cams, no major mods.

BadA$$440

08-18-2002, 08:26 PM

Hey KingRage, where did u learn all the stuff you know at? Like what school. I am in y last year of high school and would like to open up a quad/dirtbike repair shop and would like to attend a good school.

Dave400ex

08-18-2002, 09:16 PM

MMI maybe?

08-18-2002, 09:54 PM

my .02

If your thinking of running XC or trails should you even be looking at those long duration cams in the first place?

I am running the stage 1 hot cam and though it not right for my set up (I had the engine apart and just threw it in there to checkit out till I had time for the major work) it seems like it would really wake up a 400-416 etc with basic mods and an owner on a budget.

King rage I dont know if you remember our conversation earlier this month (I was the one with the bad cell conn and had called you back several times) where we were discussing the potential of the 440 and some of the problems with the compression and flow.

Well I have a question:
I am looking at installing the web 479 or other mfg with same basic high lift short dur specs and new springs guides and will be giving into the over priced hard facing as well. I still have not decided on a pipe and the problem seems to be that all that allow the 440 to breathe seem to also cut down on the bottom end, and this is a concern since I am setting up for Xc type use.

I was thinking that if I did go with something like the lrd or sparks etc (over the supper trap ids2 that I was orig thinkiing) that I would need to up the piston to 12:1+ to compensate for the lost bottom grunt torque, or am I better to just go back to my orig thinking of the super trap and stay with the 11:1 (decked so that its really close to 11:1) for reliability?

Any ways thanks everyone for your thoughts.

PS the suspension is almost finished so its motor time again wooo hooo:D :D

Dave400ex

08-18-2002, 10:20 PM

You could get the TC Pipe. It works good on built 440`s too.

Regulator 250X

08-18-2002, 10:50 PM

Heres the skinny my royal engine builder... I am racing motocross on my 250x. Its setup quite nice except for the motor.... You sound very knowledgable on here and on your website which i visited so i come to you for advice. Hopefully this is easier than calling you..... My motor is stock. It is on the stock bore, the stock piston and stock cam... and its an 87 model. You wouldnt believe how reliable this machine is. It amazes me everytime i am on the track cuz it is so reliable. It is just slow and underpowered. This offseason a friend of mine and I plan on rebuilding it. We both have the knowledge and tools to accomplish this. He is a motorcycle mechanic and just graduated from school. We just dont have the knowledge on exactly how to mod the motor. My thoughts were to bore the cylinder until we can get good tight clearances. Neither of us know how out of round it could be. Then drop a wiseco high comp piston, preferably 11:1, along with that i would like to drop a more wild cam. Not nessecarily one that needs valve springs and hardened faces. I realize this just might have to get done considering on how old the engine is. But i just want a cam to make it hit harder throughout the whole range, I really need one to come out of the corners harder. The question here is if this even sounds like a good enough set up. I dont plan on keeping up with 400's, even though i usually beat a banshee or three...... Anyway..... I hope you can help me out and maybe give me some advice. If you would rather have me call you i can possibly do that. Thanks for any help King....... later dudes.

KingRage12

08-19-2002, 06:50 AM

To many replys to answer all at once, but I will give it a try. I have been racing and riding quads my entire life all over the country. Many people are fascinated by different chalanges in there life, and mine has always been making the engine pump more air. I have drag raced cars, boats, motorcycles, and just about any other fuel powered transportation that you can think off. I have just always had my heart in the quads. This is why I committed my entire life to the sport. This gives me more time for research on my engines, as well as working with other riders preparing for our races. My education is as follows, lots and lots of late night studyings and hours of trying differents ideas. I think that most of these schools, such as MMI, and some of the Tech schools are great, especially if your knowledge about engines is limited. And the most important thing that I have that you can only aquire with time is..... experience! I can almost bet that whatever you are wanting to try, I have done it and have my own results. Engine building is very elementry as long as you understand all the facts about the project you are trying to create. I have built my family on these fundementals and consider myself very successful. My best advise for someone endeavoring in this field, is TAKE NOTES ON EVERYTHING YOU DO!. I heard one time a man said I have forgotten more that you will ever know about engines. Funny, maybe if he could remember some of those things, his engine would have fininshed better this weekend. Get a notebook and keep notes on everything. And QUESTION EVERYTHING!, years ago the majority thought the world was flat. One man was indifferent and we laughed at him. Who's laughing now? You can get books from you library on Laminar Air Flow, 4 stroke engine theory, and Air flow dynamics. Unfortunatly if you guys dont like math, some of the reading wont be that much fun! Lots of info on the web as well, just have to know where to look. Good Luck, and love what you do, or dont do it!
I think I will refrain today from engine combinations suggestions, maybe tommorow or you guys can call me today at the office, but I need to know some more facts to help you out. Sorry. :D :D