dies when jumped

[NDpredator]

Help me guys!!!!! Yesterday I finally got a chance to go out an jump my quad some, and everytime I would leave the ground it wanted to die. I know a while ago i saw a thread very similar to this one, but i can't find it now. What can be going on? Please give me some ideas, because I am supposed to be at the track tomorrow, and this could really be bad. Thanks

//derrick//

This is DANGEROUS! Tip over switch located under front plactic by the steering stem gets froggy when jumping. Open it up, make sure it is in the safe position and fill it with silicone. Here is a link to the same problem with the GSXR tip over swith.

WILL VOID WARRANTY

http://www.mototuneusa.com/gsxr_tip_over_switch.htm

Good luck.

[NDpredator]

Thanks alot!!! I went out and pulled the front plastic to see what I was dealing with and it was actually rather simple. Out tip-over switch is quite a bit different than the one on the bikes, but it was an easy fix. It's not set up to where we can silicone it, but a piece of black electrical tape will keep it in place and should do the job. Well tomorrow i'll be heading to the track to test my theory, so i'll let you know what happens. Thanks for the help.

//derrick//

[KWAD GAWD]

Where is this thing located exactly? Is it a box of some sort, or what does it look like? Can you snap a pic and post it? This is the first I'm hearing of this problem... good job.

[benbuilt4u]

Originally posted by KWAD GAWD
Where is this thing located exactly? Is it a box of some sort, or what does it look like? Can you snap a pic and post it? This is the first I'm hearing of this problem... good job.

pictures please

[AL Elks]

Here's a link to a pic that shows it:

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/9991/ltrelectricalcomponentsjpg6ya.jpg

It's actually #6 in the picture.

Here's another pic. It's G in this one:

http://www.postnetlnc.com/LTR450/Pics/Sensors/TipOver.jpg

[KWAD GAWD]

What are we doing to this thing again? Filling it with silicon so it can't move? Is it similar to the street bike TOS shown in that other thread?

[LTandRaptorider]

Originally posted by KWAD GAWD
What are we doing to this thing again? Filling it with silicon so it can't move? Is it similar to the street bike TOS shown in that other thread?

Yes, filling it with a di-electric material such as silicone keeps the bar from moving and tripping to shut off the fuel. But.. doing this of course defeats the tip-over feature... I wonder if doing something to impede the switch movement a little might be a better idea. So it would only trip on a roll-over. Just a thought.

[INFANTRY RACING]

the switch isn't the same as the gsxr's i took some pics today and if i have till i'll upload them

[HiperEX]

infrantry did u get the pics uploaded yet id like to take a look at this

[INFANTRY RACING]

working on it but i bought a mac so i have to do it off my moms dial up

[NDpredator]

I'll be posting up some pics this week also of our tip-over setup. I used electrical tape to keep mine in place, and all it takes is just a little bit. By the end of the week i'll have pics up for you guys, sorry for the wait.

//derrick//

[KWAD GAWD]

It not hard to figure out.
It's a little black rectanglar box mounted in a rubber sleeve, located on the inner side of the center bracket that holds the CDI and things. Look in from the top and it's the ONLY thing you see there in the middle. The rubber sleeve slides over a little mounting post, you just slide it off the post and unplug it.
It make a rattle sound when you shake it.

Then take the box apart, very gentle.
There are some small plastic, and a rubber seal things in there that comes out first. Then the TOS assembly pulls out last.

You have to secure the half circle thing in the center.
I used silicon on the front side only. Because the metal sensor part is on the back, and I didn't want to interefere with.

[dustinb]

is this necessssary to jump your LTR? im thinking about buying one but have never heard of this mod yet and dont really want to do it

[liloldbie]

I'm thinking that there might be a way you could take that metal "U" out and file down the metal edges and put a very small piece of electical tape over it so only a very small portion of each metal end is showing. This would increase the distance that the metal ring would have to move for the machine to shut down or "bog." I don't currently own a LT-Z, or something similar yet, but if one of you guys want to try something like that I'm sure that'd work really nice.

Here's a picture to try and explain what I'm talking about. Not sure if anyone wants to put in the time to try something like this, but I know I would.
Also not sure if the ring has to touch the metal stoppers or just the metal "U" to deactivate the EFI or not. Let me know though.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/liloldbie/TipOverSwitch1.jpg

The black is what would be the new grinded down part of the "U" with some sort of slippery tape put over it or something of that sort. I'd just make sure that there's still a lip so that the ring can freely move without any irregularities in the "U."

Sorry if I confused any of you.

[dustinb]

yea i really want to know if moost of oyu guys have done this mod to your LTR. i have never heard anything of this until i saw this post today and it may sway my decision in getting one of these LTR's since i WANT the warranty and extended one

[bwamos]

Originally posted by dustinb
yea i really want to know if moost of oyu guys have done this mod to your LTR. i have never heard anything of this until i saw this post today and it may sway my decision in getting one of these LTR's since i WANT the warranty and extended one

You could alway's buy a 2nd tipover switch. Disable one, and have the spare incase you need to take it in for warranty work. ;)

[dustinb]

yeai could do that................but will it work how it is stock racing MX?

[trick250r]

im glad i read this, a lot of people at my local track have been having these problems.

[grabasack85]

It is not the tip over switch that is causing this problem. This problem started with the first batch of ltrs first released a few months ago. Dirt is getting into ur fuel system, which is causing the injectors not to spray right. This happens in the air only. Go buy fuel injector cleaner and start with that. Pour it into ur gas tank and problem solved. This is only a temporary fix.

[FourFiftyFour]

then what is a permanent fix? I already have a broken wrist from the Dales motor locking up in midair on me...dont need another case of something similar.

[Dan_Guetter]

Funny

On every page there's someone having problems with the ltr.



Wait another year or buy something else

[dustinb]

im not having any problems with it. i dont even have one yet. im debating buying it or not. i was just curious since ive read some people had to silicone this part. and that it will void the warranty if you do. so i just want to make sure before i fork out the almost 8k on this bike.

[kids on quads]

we had the same problem, and talked to PT at the georgia wpsa and was informed that the fuel filter under the gas tank needed to be changed, no problems since.

Originally posted by Shift_DVS
Funny

On every page there's someone having problems with the ltr.



Wait another year or buy something else

thanks for that contribution, I'm sure it helped the thread maker very much:rolleyes:

[CdaleXtreme]

Im not sold that your probelm is the Tip over switch.

I dont see how that switch can move on a vertical jump. The way it is designed the quad would have to pitch right or left violently for it to move. IMO

I have had problems with my fuel system, and changing that filter and cleaning the system was the solution.

[ECATV Raptor]

i have the same problem on my raptor 660r. Everytime i hit a jump or wheelie it bogs down and I nose dive it. Do the raptors have any thing simular to the LTrs setup? Any info would help.

[Derno24]

At the expense of sounding dumb here can't we just eliminate the tip over switch? Seems like it is a ground out set-up. Most of us will have tethers or have them. Just curious.

[CdaleXtreme]

The ECU is designed to accept certain signals from the T.O.S. and if they arent being recieved it will shut the system off.

I am sure it could be removed, but not just elimanted by splicing the together where the T.o.S. used to be.

-----

The problem with the LTR fuel systems is that they are very fickle and will no accept any sort of Debris into the system. If you do get dirt in the system you will have to clean it from top to bottom, and replace your swirl tank filter.

EVERY LTR owner needs one of these.


http://www.cernicsracing.com/2006funnelkit.htm

If you dont have one, Get One. Its a simple fix to a big headache. Even if you are running race gas. Do you think a $7.00 an hour employee at VP canning the fuel gives a rip about fuel quality and your LTR?

[Crazie]

I'm a little late at replying here, but it's not the TOS.

The TOS is designed to completely shut off the quad, and requires the key to be turned off and back on in order to reset the circuit.

You won't get a bog if the TOS is causing the problem, the engine will shut off completely and you'll have to shut it off via the switches, then turn it back on.

If you think about it, the TOS is a safety feature. Why would it allow the bike to keep running once it's tripped? It wouldn't be much of a safety feature if it did.

I had a friend of mine who ended up replacing the fuel pump to fix his problem. He said his filter was dirty, but that dirt must have either passed through the filter, or he just had a bad fuel pump.

If it's still under warranty, take it in and have the dealer look at fixing this at no cost. The filter alone is around $50 I believe.

[AL Elks]

I'm having problem believing it's a fuel filter because if it was it woud do it all the time and not just when you jump. Can someone please educate me as to why it would only happen when you jump?

Seriously, does someone have an explanation to this? I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm just trying to learn something that I may not be aware of.

[user101]

I also would like to know the solution to this problem. Mine will be goin back to the dealer for a frame replacement next week and i would like to have it taken care of then. Mine has done this once while jumping. If the filter needs to be replaced I will have it done.

[Crazie]

Originally posted by AL Elks
I'm having problem believing it's a fuel filter because if it was it woud do it all the time and not just when you jump. Can someone please educate me as to why it would only happen when you jump?

Seriously, does someone have an explanation to this? I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm just trying to learn something that I may not be aware of.

I have no idea why the filter would affect it like it does. But, then again, the only quad I've personally witnessed this with, had to replace his fuel pump.

[CdaleXtreme]

The fuel pump pumps fuel vertically into the throttlebody. It must maintain 40 something pounds of pressure to keep a steady flow of fuel to the injectors.

I assume while the fuel system is already struggling to meet its pressure requirements, the G's on a take off may send it into deficit fuel pressures.

I am not sure how accurate the above statement is but it seems to be the case.

I can tell you this though. Bike bogs and runs like crap. Clean the fuel system replace the filter: Bike runs like new again. :cool:

[AL Elks]

I'm playing devils advocate here. It would seem that the pressure would increase on takeoff as the fuel is being pushed down the tube due to the bulk of the fuel being pushed to the bottom of the tank thus increasing the pressure towards the fuel pump which pulls fuel from the tank so it doesn't rely on pressure but rather a good fuel supply.

I wouldn't think past the fuel pump would be affected as it's under constant pressure.

[kids on quads]

I will try to say this again, this is not guess work. paul turner from team suzuki says its your fuel filter, we changed ours and have not had any trouble since, listen to him I think he might know what he is talking about

[AL Elks]

Listen brother, I'm not trying to piss you off. I just don't like doing things because someone says so. I like to know the ins and outs of things. You'll never learn anything if you just go do what someone else tells you to and just leave it at that.

Now if he's figured it out then ask him what the reasoning is behind it and then we will all be the wiser. If it's not guesswork then I guess (pun intended) he can explain to us why it happens.

[FourFiftyFour]

Originally posted by AL Elks
Listen brother, I'm not trying to piss you off. I just don't like doing things because someone says so.

Then why are you on a forum?? Because this is about people saying stuff.....

[AL Elks]

Because I learn things on the forum. Let me try and say it another way.
Man this thread could turn ugly.

I'm on the forum to give and receive advice and to learn more about the sport I love. I'm not on here just to ask general questions on how to fix something and just going out and doing it. You'll never become a good mechanic just by replacing components and now knowing what the problem really is and what causes the problem. You'll spend a lot of money replacing parts until it's fixed though.

The site has a fantastic bunch of people with tons of knowledge. I'm a sponge and the more I learn the more I can pass that information on to others.

Personally I find your post somewhat of a personal attack and for the life of me I don't see why you posted it.

Now can you possibly answer the question. If not then my question to you would be "why are you in this particular forum"? I would assume that it is to learn something.

I'll say it again. I don't just do things just because someone says to do it. I thoroughly research the answer before resolving the issue. If it's a simple issue with a logical suggestion then fine I may try it. If it can't be explained then I have to do more research.

If you're the type of person that doesn't know squat about your ATV other than what someone else tells you GREAT. Not everyone has the drive to know all the workings of their ATV. That's not my cup of tea though. I've seen riders that couldn't even tell you what work has been done to their bikes as their "builder" does all the work. Personally it's my belief that until you learn the workings of the quad and can talk intelligently about it you'll never get the bike tuned in properly as you don't have a clue as to what is going on with the bike.

Just the thoughts of an old fart who likes to go fast.

[FourFiftyFour]

if you think my post is a personal attack then you are way too sensitive. Your previous post did not make much sense, because forums are basically people telling others how to do things. Take it as you want.

[AL Elks]

Originally posted by AL Elks
Listen brother, I'm not trying to piss you off. I just don't like doing things because someone says so. I like to know the ins and outs of things. You'll never learn anything if you just go do what someone else tells you to and just leave it at that.

Now if he's figured it out then ask him what the reasoning is behind it and then we will all be the wiser. If it's not guesswork then I guess (pun intended) he can explain to us why it happens.

Can you please point out which part doesn't make sense?

[atvmxer88]

Lets turn this topic back into an informative discussion.

My LTR dies when I'm in the air trying to give it gas before I land. I have checked my filter and just had a few particles in it. I have heard of the fuel pumps braking down. I believe that when jumped the pump no longer has any head pressure pushing against it and therefore with dirt or break down of the pump in the suction side of the pump doesn't draw the vacuum needed to acheive proper fuel pressure.

Another theroy of mine is that it could possible be a clogged injector. Although this is less likely. It does make sense though because the motor is under nearly 100% load on the takeoff and then instantly is under 20% load. The fuel must atomizer much quicker under the 20% load. If the injector is not properly spraying the fuel the fuel with not properly atomize.

These are just a couple ideas of mine that I am throwing out there. I have a new fuel pump and injector on the way . I will let you know if it fixes the problem.

[FourFiftyFour]

the part where you say you dont like doing things because someone says so... this is a forum...people tell you what to do due to their experiences. Thats what did not make sense to me. Because isnt that pretty much the whole purpose of a forum?


now back on discussion...with the cannondales i know that dirty fuel filters would make the quad run like chit and yes it has been known to make them die. Injectors could be another reason as well, but like is has been said its not as likely. Fuel filters are inexpensive and easy to replace. I would definitely try to replace the filter before anything else. Could be an easy fix and it was the solution to some Cannondale quirks for me and some of my friends who owned them as well. As this quad is similar to the Cannondale (EFI) I would definitely check the fuel filter before spending hefty money on something else that MIGHT not be the real problem. Of course, this dying problem might be a bunch of different things such as filters, injectors, tip over switch, etc etc

[AL Elks]

Oh, I'm with you on the not spending money on something unless it's going to fix the problem. I'm just the type of individual that likes to know why and how things happen and this is a perfect example. Why does the quad bog/die only on the slope of the jump? How does a dirty fuel filter cause this?

By the way you have to read an entire post in order to get the true meaning of what is said.

The next two sentences qualified the first sentence. The sentences were:


"I like to know the ins and outs of things. You'll never learn anything if you just go do what someone else tells you to and just leave it at that."

So just to look at the first sentence would be taking that sentence out of context. I think that you just misread what was intended. That's what sucks about forums at times. What you may have typed may not be perceived in the same light as you intended.

[Blackkawi400]

CDale is my kind of girl!!!

I love a woman that does what she's told and doesn't ask questions!!!

Call me later! :devil:

[armysig]

Oh man Black , :eek2: I think you're about to get your arse beat. lol

[Blackkawi400]

I'm cool with S&M too!! :D

[Crazie]

Originally posted by Blackkawi400
CDale is my kind of girl!!!

I love a woman that does what she's told and doesn't ask questions!!!

Call me later! :devil:

You crack me up!!! :D

[AL Elks]

Here's a writeup from the Yoshi site:

FUEL FILTER
Inside the swirl tank (small reservoir attached to the petcock) there is a small fuel filter. This filter needs only to be replaced maybe every six months to a year if you run pump gas. But- with some race fuels, the filter needs to be changed frequently. Some race fuels will dissolve the filter. The symptoms of a bad filter are when the bike inexplicably starts to cut out. Usually in the air off of jumps with a chopped throttle.

Looks like I need to eat some crow because I didn't believe a clogged fuel filter could cause the quad to cut out in mid air. I still would like to know the physics of why this happens.

[RIDER11X]

Originally posted by AL Elks
Here's a writeup from the Yoshi site:

FUEL FILTER
The symptoms of a bad filter are when the bike inexplicably starts to cut out. Usually in the air off of jumps with a chopped throttle.

What a time to be troubleshooting your motor! Someone needs to sell an FCR conversion kit!:eek2:

[CdaleXtreme]

http://www.cernicsracing.com/2006ltr450fuelfilter.htm