milling head with 12.25:1 To make 14:1

[Over-land 450r]

I was wondering if any one new how much you would have to mill the head or cylinder with a 12.25:1 or a 11:1 to make about 14:1

Im want to reduce the dome size.

What about thinner gaskets? This is for a 05 450r and i ride Mx

Thanks Rob

[R3Concepts]

You would have to take a LOT off the head to get to 14:1. Not a great idea. You would have to degree the cam back in and retard it to compensate for the decking.

Just get a piston. Its the best safest way to accomplish what you are trying to do.

[Over-land 450r]

ok thanks any one have a 14:1 or a 13.5 or a 13:1 with a small dome to it.

[400exrider707]

Like he said the piston is the easiest solution, otherwise by milling your going to throw off the timing.

[Over-land 450r]

what hi comp piston has a flat dome? Thanks alot

[angry450r]

I would check into a possible aftermarket rod if your looking 14:1 thats allllooot of compression for that rod and possibly the crank. just my .02

[440ex kid]

what hi comp piston has a flat dome? Thanks alot



They all have domes to them thats how they get the compression up. Get a je 13:1 or the baldwin 14:1



I would check into a possible aftermarket rod if your looking 14:1 thats allllooot of compression for that rod and possibly the crank.


You should be alright with stock rod and crank. Ive seen people run 14:1 with no problems

[Smidgy]

yea well no problems now, I imagine you will see future problems, the crank and rod, were made to run on 10.5:1 comp on your case with a little safety margin, taking it to 14:1 is adding a lot of extra pressure, well over the over design of the engine. If you do this, don't expect your engine to last anywhere near as long, without putting in stronger components like rod and crank, i can hear it let go from here. haha

[R3Concepts]

The stock rod will hold 14:1 all day long.

[Over-land 450r]

yea thats what i thought. i herd that Rage had a piston made over 13:1 but it had a flat dome like it was just lifted.
i thik i might go with th sparks motor. setup. HOw do they work
They say i can have natalies old motor setup (cam and piston) whos is also Wimmers motor setup now for around $500 Plus port and polish. I dsont no what to get yet what do you think?

Thanks alot you guys ROb

[angry450r]

ya you keep telling yourself that it will last!Yea it will last all day long and at the end of the day there will be a nice window in the side of your block ,just look at it this way it shouldnt be to hard to take the rod out then LMAO!! Im not saying its gonna jst explode but there will be NO longevity seen it happen man!

[Martin Blair]

I would go with the 13:1 JE. Its great in combination with a stage 2 hotcam. Its very reliable and good power all around.

Here is a picture of the piston in the cyclender

[Over-land 450r]

Thats its not that much more that a 13:1 and theyhold up fine.
I might go wit the 13.5:1 from sparks and use there cam.not sure yet.

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by angry450r
ya you keep telling yourself that it will last!Yea it will last all day long and at the end of the day there will be a nice window in the side of your block ,just look at it this way it shouldnt be to hard to take the rod out then LMAO!! Im not saying its gonna jst explode but there will be NO longevity seen it happen man!

Ive been running at least 13.5:1 for 2 years now(differs with builds). All on the stock rod, same rod to boot, and this is on a drag TRX, wide open all the time. Hows that for longevity?

[Smidgy]

Actually being a drag bike isn't a good example, because you will not be up and down the throttle all dayt long like on a race bike or something that would have a lot longer of a run.

I am not saying that your wrong just bad example. I agree it depends on the build, but 10.5 to 13 is a very large jump. Without adding stronger components the ENGINE WILL NOT LAST AS LONG AS STOCK. the entire reason is fatigue the extra force to compress something form 10.5:1 to 13:1,13.5:1,14:1 is a fair amount, and it will faitgue your rod etc, until the weakest part lets go, and you got a better idea of how it feels to push it home. The longer it lasts is a testiment of how honda builds its engines, but too much is too much, and you are knocking on its door. In my opinion it is all up to what u plan on doing with it, if u plan on riding with your buddies all day long forget it, you will blow up. Drag bikes, or anything else that you don't plan on running all day long doing stupid stuff well it could be feasable. I would never do it to my bike, the cost is not worth the reward for what i do, but i don't race much.

[440ex kid]

I have never heard of anyone that has blown a 450r motor, besides ones that are really strung out there. I agree the motor might not last as long as stock, almost any performance mod will do that. You guys act like it wont last 5 minutes. I know people with built 450s and they hold up just fine, and they beat the **** outa them.

[Smidgy]

i guess it just sounds so dangerous that i can't just say go do it. I agree i have never heard of a 450r engine blowing either, but i don't see many extreme built ones either, the only ones i know that are built to race, they put the stronger components in, it is so cheap compared to blowing up or rebuilding your motor, it isn't worth it.

[trick450r]

Originally posted by R3Concepts
The stock rod will hold 14:1 all day long.


my stock rod that broke clean in half last weekend under 14.5:1 compression says different....

[440ex kid]

my stock rod that broke clean in half last weekend under 14.5:1 compression says different....

I would like to see pics of that. I dont mean to start an argument, I just want some facts. What else was done to your motor? What kind of piston was it?

Rossier did mine head, piston, and cyl.
I got a 12:5;1 piston with the cyl. shaved so im at 14:1, Pulls like a train! Strong motor, just make sure you change the oil offen!

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by Smidgy
Actually being a drag bike isn't a good example, because you will not be up and down the throttle all dayt long like on a race bike or something that would have a lot longer of a run.

I am not saying that your wrong just bad example. I agree it depends on the build, but 10.5 to 13 is a very large jump. Without adding stronger components the ENGINE WILL NOT LAST AS LONG AS STOCK. the entire reason is fatigue the extra force to compress something form 10.5:1 to 13:1,13.5:1,14:1 is a fair amount, and it will faitgue your rod etc, until the weakest part lets go, and you got a better idea of how it feels to push it home. The longer it lasts is a testiment of how honda builds its engines, but too much is too much, and you are knocking on its door. In my opinion it is all up to what u plan on doing with it, if u plan on riding with your buddies all day long forget it, you will blow up. Drag bikes, or anything else that you don't plan on running all day long doing stupid stuff well it could be feasable. I would never do it to my bike, the cost is not worth the reward for what i do, but i don't race much.

I would agree but since the bike used to look like this Im going to have to disagree. Like I said the stock rod will last all day long.

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by trick450r
my stock rod that broke clean in half last weekend under 14.5:1 compression says different....

Think about what you just said and re-evaluate it. I know for a fact that you run a big DASA motor.

You said it still had a stock rod, so even with it being as built as it is/was, it STILL has a stock rod. Meaning that Dan USES the stock rod. I know of DASA 550s that are USING the stock rod. So, again, for the 5th time, the stock rod is plenty strong.

I will back you on that!:D

[300extreme#8]

Originally posted by angry450r
ya you keep telling yourself that it will last!Yea it will last all day long and at the end of the day there will be a nice window in the side of your block ,just look at it this way it shouldnt be to hard to take the rod out then LMAO!! Im not saying its gonna jst explode but there will be NO longevity seen it happen man!
dude, duh, anything you do to it that is adding aftermarkt stuff enginewise is going to do something to the engine life... But guys dont let it scare you, yes it may not last as long bout u gotta go back and rebuild them once ayear anyways, more if u race, and angry450r dude, i know that alot people here on this site race and does what it takes to keep the life up in their motor, and when u race you watch the stuff alittle diff, you dont just go ride,but dude lay off, if he wants to run 14:1 it's his decision it's not goin to throw a rod out the side of your motor ,so you have nothin to be scared of, although i might understand u replacing stuff before the year is over but thats part of it.. but i bet angry450 dont race and if he did he'd understand what advange havin alil more power does for you

[Smidgy]

Why wouldn't you put an aftermarket rod in it? Save a little money? doesn't make sense to me, if you can make it bulletproof why not do it? "The stock rod will hold up" well maybe it will maybe it won't i guess we will see, but if he put in a stronger lighter aftermarket one, your engine has less rotating mass(it will rev slightly faster) and it is stronger! When you race and you put that kind of money into a motor, why wouldn't you put the little extra into it to make it better.

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by Smidgy
Why wouldn't you put an aftermarket rod in it? Save a little money? doesn't make sense to me, if you can make it bulletproof why not do it? "The stock rod will hold up" well maybe it will maybe it won't i guess we will see, but if he put in a stronger lighter aftermarket one, your engine has less rotating mass(it will rev slightly faster) and it is stronger! When you race and you put that kind of money into a motor, why wouldn't you put the little extra into it to make it better.

I think you guys are missing the point that the stock rod is a GREAT unit.

Jim(530R) just broke a Falicon Knife Rod in half, and its suppose to be the better, stronger rod.

The rod takes hits when slack it created. I.E. Turboes or Nitrous bikes. NA stock bores dont have that slack, in essence creating a very low rod failure percentage.

[angry450r]

by NO means am I trying to talk him out of it. I was just adding my .02 ya Im sure a racer wants every edge he can get so like smidgy said I would want the insurance of a stronger rod. and thats it I dont care what anybody does screw it throw in a 15:1 for all I care man

[Over-land 450r]

i think im gonna stick with the stock rod. thanks you guys
Rob

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by R3Concepts
Jim(530R) just broke a Falicon Knife Rod in half, and its suppose to be the better, stronger rod.


Are you implying that the falicon that Jim broke isn't as strong as a stocker rod? I hope you are not conveying that because the 530R that I built for Jim let loose on 20 lbs of turbo boost. never did you say anything about a turbo in your post so i wanted the peers to understand that the falicon rod broke well over 100hp.

BTW: I also decked my head 0.040" (1mm) to achieve 14:1. Nothing wrong with this technique at all.

[440ex kid]

How did you mill that 40 thou? Surface grinder? Also is there any other mods needed to make this work safely?

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by chad502ex
Are you implying that the falicon that Jim broke isn't as strong as a stocker rod? I hope you are not conveying that because the 530R that I built for Jim let loose on 20 lbs of turbo boost. never did you say anything about a turbo in your post so i wanted the peers to understand that the falicon rod broke well over 100hp.

BTW: I also decked my head 0.040" (1mm) to achieve 14:1. Nothing wrong with this technique at all.

Implying that even aftermarket parts, regardless of strength and "being better" can still break.

[Smidgy]

man cmon, everything can break, are you nuts or something, i dare you to try to start a motor with 100 + hp with the stocker

[DieselBoy]

If I was going to run 14:1 I would most definately replace it with a performance rod/crank designed for that kind of load. You may not break the rod/disrupt the crank, but the upper rod will wear out at 10x the rate working everything loose...Wiseco builds a performance crank designed for this application, as well Corillo (sp?) rods designed for high compression engines. It's like the studs, you use the stock ones you soon find out that they were not made, and will generally not stand against the excessive load of the higher compression...

High compression is undeniably hard on EVERYTHING in the motor.
I've also heard the reliability factor of the high comp engines is very low, but it's quite obvious.

Not looking to start wars/arguements, though.

[DieselBoy]

Originally posted by 440ex kid
I have never heard of anyone that has blown a 450r motor

Are you sure? I've seen a couple on here, and at the track blow.

Also, if you look around you'll find some on here that have..

[Smidgy]

yea that is exactly what I am trying to say, the additional force that is put throught the rod and crank would benifit the use of an aftermarket performance part that is made for the application. Doing something to your engine or doing a mod doesn't have to be hard on your motor, it just needs to be reverse engineered to prove everything used can be take the force required.

[trick450r]

Originally posted by R3Concepts
I think you guys are missing the point that the stock rod is a GREAT unit.

Jim(530R) just broke a Falicon Knife Rod in half, and its suppose to be the better, stronger rod.

The rod takes hits when slack it created. I.E. Turboes or Nitrous bikes. NA stock bores dont have that slack, in essence creating a very low rod failure percentage.

i try not to call it a dasa motor any more...seeing how it broke, then johnny completely denied any responsibility and even said they never got into the bottom end...oh did i mention this was with only 5 race laps on it? and Dan wont return my calls or e-mails...but yes some crank bearing siezed and then the rod broke, broke 1 case, bent the other, wrecked the crank, rod, and piston...





i dont want to get into what i think about dan but i will say i had RER motorcity rebuild it (sponsor) and they found that it didnt exactly have everything dan said he put in it.

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by trick450r
i try not to call it a dasa motor any more...seeing how it broke, then johnny completely denied any responsibility and even said they never got into the bottom end...oh did i mention this was with only 5 race laps on it? and Dan wont return my calls or e-mails...but yes some crank bearing siezed and then the rod broke, broke 1 case, bent the other, wrecked the crank, rod, and piston...





i dont want to get into what i think about dan but i will say i had RER motorcity rebuild it (sponsor) and they found that it didnt exactly have everything dan said he put in it.

Id be interested in hearing what wasnt in the motor that Dan said he put in there.

Let me get this straight..You built a race motor, well top end at least, didnt freshen up the bottom end (crank bearings) in this case, which are known for a high default rate in a 450R. And you wonder why it lasted 5 laps?

Oops.:ermm:

[DieselBoy]

Regardless, it should last more than 5 laps.

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by DieselBoy
Regardless, it should last more than 5 laps.

I guess I could say the same for him not changing any of the bearings.

I dont see where this is someone elses fault, maybe some more details might help in that.

[Hammer trx450r]

Originally posted by R3Concepts
I guess I could say the same for him not changing any of the bearings.

I dont see where this is someone elses fault, maybe some more details might help in that.


I agree!!!

[trick450r]

Originally posted by R3Concepts
Id be interested in hearing what wasnt in the motor that Dan said he put in there.

Let me get this straight..You built a race motor, well top end at least, didnt freshen up the bottom end (crank bearings) in this case, which are known for a high default rate in a 450R. And you wonder why it lasted 5 laps?

Oops.:ermm:
'

all i wonder is why i sent dan an entire motor to rebuild with him knowing it had two seasons on it and he DIDNT freshen up the bottom end...

[trick450r]

im not going to say anything about what was or wasn't in the motor when it got torn down untill we get ahold of dan...he's got one more chance

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by trick450r
'

all i wonder is why i sent dan an entire motor to rebuild with him knowing it had two seasons on it and he DIDNT freshen up the bottom end...

Im not trying to be a jerk or come across the wrong way. But this is what I am talking about by passing the buck. YOU knew it had 2 seasons. Which is way over due for bearings. Unless you TELL a motor builder to do things then they wont, they cant read minds. Dont be afraid to get in there and say what you want done and checked and so on. Besides Dans work load is off the charts. Im not taking sides here, Im sure he will make it right if its indeed wrong. But I guess a lesson learned? Sorry for your misfortune, we just toasted a motor as well.:ermm:

[370kingR]

Originally posted by R3Concepts
You would have to take a LOT off the head to get to 14:1. Not a great idea. You would have to degree the cam back in and retard it to compensate for the decking.

Just get a piston. Its the best safest way to accomplish what you are trying to do.

R3, i just wanted to correct this statement about degreeing your cam back after shaving the head. If you want to get your cam timing back to its original position of straight up timing you would have to advance it, not retard it. Its retards naturally when milling the head.

On another note, im close to 15:1 on my 450cc motor and beat the balls off it all day long and it was a champ. All this talk over what it can handle and what it cant.....you guys are just speculating from little or no experience. Your all going by hearsay and not your own trial and error testing.

Just because one guy snaps a stock connecting rod and has 14:1 compression doesnt mean that was the problem. That rod could have snapped for several reasons and your all just coming to the conclusion it was the compression all by its self.

IE: The motor was running VERY hot from too lean or incorrect fuel or low oil and the piston swelled up and starting binding/dragging. All that tension making it get even hotter and the problem quickly gets out of hand and snaps the rod......Im not going to get into this all that much but i disagree with alot of the posts in this thread.

Compression equals power, period. Whats safe to run is something that can be debated all day long. A good engine builder can keep plenty of compression in a motor safely, it just needs to be serviced a bit sooner.

[Doak450r]

i run 13.75"1 cp in mine and havent had a problem yet

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 370kingR
A good engine builder can keep plenty of compression in a motor safely, it just needs ...

this you are!

[trick450r]

Originally posted by R3Concepts
Im not trying to be a jerk or come across the wrong way. But this is what I am talking about by passing the buck. YOU knew it had 2 seasons. Which is way over due for bearings. Unless you TELL a motor builder to do things then they wont, they cant read minds. Dont be afraid to get in there and say what you want done and checked and so on. Besides Dans work load is off the charts. Im not taking sides here, Im sure he will make it right if its indeed wrong. But I guess a lesson learned? Sorry for your misfortune, we just toasted a motor as well.:ermm:

i understand where your coming from...but when you ship a motor to someone who supposedly knows everything about that motor and you tell him to do everything single thing he can to that motor, and you also tell him it has 2 seasons and to rebuild EVERYTHING...dont you think he should be telling me i need new bearings...


And i wasn;t even pissed he didnt do that, im pissed he wont talk to us at all.

[370kingR]

Originally posted by chad502ex
this you are!

Well i tip my cap to you good sir for you know more than i ;)

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by 370kingR
Well i tip my cap to you good sir for you know more than i ;)

And to you, for you know more then I:D

[370kingR]

Originally posted by R3Concepts
And to you, for you know more then I:D

Well then i also tip my cap to you for having nicer bikes and a better shop then i have :cool:

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by 370kingR
Well then i also tip my cap to you for having nicer bikes and a better shop then i have :cool:

Nah..Afterall you are the one that inspired me to try the "darkside".:devil:

[Chef]

I ran this 500cc Wiseco bike on 13.5:1 to 13,000 RPM on the stock rod-for like 10 races with no problems as of yet. Theres a Falicon on the bench for it when we get time.