Fuel Question AGAIN?

[USAF Dirtboy]

Tried to look for it on the search section but nothing...anyways I am getting a JE 12:1 HC, and was wondering if i should run 93 or 50/50 (93/110)? What are your opinions on this and if you have this piston...what do u run for the best perfomance? thanks

[JIMTED79]

12:1 is real borderline, I know people that run 91 and it runs fine but IMO the 50/50 will make the motor last longer and run better. Cheap insurance!!!

[QuadRacer041]

i dont know if it true or not but i remember reading that you shouldnt mix race gas with regular(super). what happenes is the to 2 fuels will seperate anyway. its kind of like mixing oil and water, so even if you shake your fuel jug right before you poor it into your tank it will seperate again once in your tank. like i said i dont know if its true but kind of makes sense to me.

[JIMTED79]

Originally posted by QuadRacer041
i dont know if it true or not but i remember reading that you shouldnt mix race gas with regular(super). what happenes is the to 2 fuels will seperate anyway. its kind of like mixing oil and water, so even if you shake your fuel jug right before you poor it into your tank it will seperate again once in your tank. like i said i dont know if its true but kind of makes sense to me.

Not true at all

[quad9]

the fuels will blend ok, but it will screw up the properties of the race gas. unless you are getting "race gas" from the gas station, in that case the fuel is bad to begin with.

[bic's 450R]

what about running aviation fuel, ive heard there are additives in aviation to keep the fuel from freezing, will this hurt performance or the engine itself. seems as though regulations would be tighter on aviation than those for off-road machines. dont want planes falling out of the air!!

[QuadRacer041]

Originally posted by JIMTED79
Not true at all

lol, maybe a little more explanation would be nice, why is that not true?

[quad9]

Originally posted by bic's 450R
what about running aviation fuel, ive heard there are additives in aviation to keep the fuel from freezing, will this hurt performance or the engine itself. seems as though regulations would be tighter on aviation than those for off-road machines. dont want planes falling out of the air!!


some guys run avation fuel, but you need to rember that fuel is made to burn at a very high altitude. so the burn rate is wrong to be running it a sea level. not saying it wont work, but it is just not right.

[nowukno]

Originally posted by QuadRacer041
i dont know if it true or not but i remember reading that you shouldnt mix race gas with regular(super). what happenes is the to 2 fuels will seperate anyway. its kind of like mixing oil and water, so even if you shake your fuel jug right before you poor it into your tank it will seperate again once in your tank. like i said i dont know if its true but kind of makes sense to me.


I sure hope that's not true , i have been mixing 50/50 93 & 110 octane for awhile in my R.

[MR.BIG]

I've mixed race gas and pump gas for years and never had a problem.

[QuadRacer041]

Originally posted by MR.BIG
I've mixed race gas and pump gas for years and never had a problem.

not saying that what you are doing is really working but how do you know it is?unless your running a really high compression you might never know. you might be running not enough octane at times and enough at other.how can you be so sure your getting an even mix all the time.

[Klotz Director]

The long story short is that 50/50 is okay, but why would you want to? You'll still have a gasoline with the bad properties of pump gas even if it is "half" of what it was. In a 12:1 motor I would recommend a straight racing 100 or even a 108.

Okay. So money is a factor. I know this is true for everyone and I understand why you would do this. Maybe check out Klotz Hitrate. It retails for $25 per can and makes 10 gallons of 105 octane race gas from nine gallons of 93 octane pump gas. This is much more economical and gives you the ability to make the gas AS NEEDED so it doesn't sit around getting old.

[400exrider707]

The 06 450R is 12:1 compression stock and honda only recommends pump gas for it.............

[White7]

Originally posted by JIMTED79
Not true at all

How about TRUE

here is some info on why not to mix fuel, race gas with other or any which way you want, and the guy who wrote this knows his poop ( tice)The cocktail that holds unleaded fuel together is different than the cocktail that holds leaded fuels together, the two don't mix. You can pour leaded and unleaded together but, you're not blending the fuels, you're combining them in one fuel tank. For the components that can combine, you end up making fuel that is more volatile and less stable. Meaning more prone to detonation. And then the components separate into different cocktails, usually making fuels that are not what you think, and the octane does not equal a half and half split, the numbers actually raise but the fuel becomes less stable. Mixing leaded to leaded is ok sometimes, as is unleaded to unleaded. Just make sure one of them is not oxygenated. The corrosive attitude of oxy fuels can sometimes get very aggressive when mixing and form oxides that will be caustic enough to oxidize aluminum. I can't say this enough to you guys or any of my customers, buy the fuel you need, don't try and make your own. If you don't have the facilities or the chemical engineering background, don't mix fuels.

Heres some more good reading,has to do with go carts but interesting still

http://www.foxvalleykart.com/fuel1.html

[JIMTED79]

Originally posted by White7
How about TRUE

here is some info on why not to mix fuel, race gas with other or any which way you want, and the guy who wrote this knows his poop ( tice)The cocktail that holds unleaded fuel together is different than the cocktail that holds leaded fuels together, the two don't mix. You can pour leaded and unleaded together but, you're not blending the fuels, you're combining them in one fuel tank. For the components that can combine, you end up making fuel that is more volatile and less stable. Meaning more prone to detonation. And then the components separate into different cocktails, usually making fuels that are not what you think, and the octane does not equal a half and half split, the numbers actually raise but the fuel becomes less stable. Mixing leaded to leaded is ok sometimes, as is unleaded to unleaded. Just make sure one of them is not oxygenated. The corrosive attitude of oxy fuels can sometimes get very aggressive when mixing and form oxides that will be caustic enough to oxidize aluminum. I can't say this enough to you guys or any of my customers, buy the fuel you need, don't try and make your own. If you don't have the facilities or the chemical engineering background, don't mix fuels.

Heres some more good reading,has to do with go carts but interesting still

http://www.foxvalleykart.com/fuel1.html

Dude, you just said not to mix fuel because leaded does not mix with unleaded. Well you should read your own page you attached "part 3, third paragraph from bottom" where he says go for it to get the proper octaine rating. Also he said aviation fuel is another good way to get more octane but to remember to much octane can hurt performance. You almost had me.

[OKTRX450R]

Originally posted by quad9
some guys run avation fuel, but you need to rember that fuel is made to burn at a very high altitude. so the burn rate is wrong to be running it a sea level. not saying it wont work, but it is just not right.

Really? Do they use different fuel for take off?

Just think about what happens at take off versus cruising altitudes...go to your local dragstrip and count the cars running on avgas...

[Klotz Director]

AvGas is very dry. Do you like rebuilding that nice and complicated four-stroke?

[MR.BIG]

Originally posted by JIMTED79
Dude, you just said not to mix fuel because leaded does not mix with unleaded. Well you should read your own page you attached "part 3, third paragraph from bottom" where he says go for it to get the proper octaine rating. Also he said aviation fuel is another good way to get more octane but to remember to much octane can hurt performance. You almost had me.

Yes how do you explain that.

[wvspeedfreak]

This is a very interesting thread.I have never heard that you shouldn't mix race and pump gas.Please continue with this debate,I might learn something :)

[White7]

Originally posted by JIMTED79
Dude, you just said not to mix fuel because leaded does not mix with unleaded. Well you should read your own page you attached "part 3, third paragraph from bottom" where he says go for it to get the proper octaine rating. Also he said aviation fuel is another good way to get more octane but to remember to much octane can hurt performance. You almost had me.

Yes and i agree with him,he did say you could mix and i agree with him BUT he doesnt say what hes mixing

You know it is OK to mix fuels
Heres a chart for mixing pump and race gas to get your octane ratings
http://www.rockettbrand.com/technicals/documents/BlendingCharts/93OctaneBlendingChart.pdf
Notice anything?

My post was about mixing leaded to unleaded

But hey Im not trying to stop you ,Its you bike do what you want,Ive just found to much info on why NOT to do it that it by far out weights the go ahead and do it argument

[JIMTED79]

Originally posted by White7
Yes and i agree with him,he did say you could mix and i agree with him BUT he doesnt say what hes mixing

You know it is OK to mix fuels
Heres a chart for mixing pump and race gas to get your octane ratings
http://www.rockettbrand.com/technicals/documents/BlendingCharts/93OctaneBlendingChart.pdf
Notice anything?

My post was about mixing leaded to unleaded

But hey Im not trying to stop you ,Its you bike do what you want,Ive just found to much info on why NOT to do it that it by far out weights the go ahead and do it argument Your

So what are you saying , it's ok or not ok? On your first post you were all about how it won't work and now your saying heres a chart on how to do it. Is that your way of saying you were wrong? If you read your attachment like I said you would see that he recammends adding leaded products to your unleaded fuel.

[450rJam]

What about using the over the counter octain booster ? does it do anything ? besides waist my $ ?
like the 104+ off road stuff ?

[goldrims04]

i heard that the klozts fuel additive that makes 105 octane works well and isnt too expensive

[Klotz Director]

That fuel additive is HiTrate. Ask for some at the GNCC races, we usually bring a couple gallons but don't display them.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by 450rJam
What about using the over the counter octain booster ? does it do anything ? besides waist my $ ?
like the 104+ off road stuff ?

You said it best, its just a waste of money. Its not 104 octane. It goes by points. Each bottle might add like 10 points. Well an octane is something like 7 points, so your only really raising it like 1 1/2 octane! Worthless. I've heard about it gumming stuff too, but not sure if its true.

[Klotz Director]

Klotz Octane Booster raises 1 gallon of gas 2 1/2 points per ounce. This works up to 10 points with 4 ounces per gallon. So a premium gas of 93 octane will be raised to 103 with 4 ounces per gallon.

On a side note: Our Octane Booster comes in a metal container, as does any other effective octane booster. Anything powerful enough to boost the octane will eat through plastic in it's concentrated form. NEVER buy octane booster in a plastic bottle.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by Klotz Director
Klotz Octane Booster raises 1 gallon of gas 2 1/2 points per ounce. This works up to 10 points with 4 ounces per gallon. So a premium gas of 93 octane will be raised to 103 with 4 ounces per gallon.

On a side note: Our Octane Booster comes in a metal container, as does any other effective octane booster. Anything powerful enough to boost the octane will eat through plastic in it's concentrated form. NEVER buy octane booster in a plastic bottle.

Cool thanks for the info. So you think you could explain this mixing and not-mixing nonsense?

[Klotz Director]

One of my sales guys likes to say this:

Sure you can mix it. But why bother? Part of running race gas is the perfect engineering that goes into making a clean fuel with power building properties. You're essentially destroying that as soon as you mix it.

[JIMTED79]

Originally posted by Klotz Director
Klotz Octane Booster raises 1 gallon of gas 2 1/2 points per ounce. This works up to 10 points with 4 ounces per gallon. So a premium gas of 93 octane will be raised to 103 with 4 ounces per gallon.

On a side note: Our Octane Booster comes in a metal container, as does any other effective octane booster. Anything powerful enough to boost the octane will eat through plastic in it's concentrated form. NEVER buy octane booster in a plastic bottle.

So is klotz octane booster leaded? and what is a rough cost and how many gallons does it treat?

[Quadkid4105]

i mixed mine for a while and it ran fine then i went to straight race fuel and raised it 1 more horsepower

[Klotz Director]

Originally posted by JIMTED79
So is klotz octane booster leaded? and what is a rough cost and how many gallons does it treat?

Klotz Octane booster is a tetraethyl lead substitute. The cost varies depending on the size of the bottle. One Ounce will raise One Gallon of gas 2 1/2 points. This works up to 4 ounces for 10 points. Check out pricing on www.klotzlube.com, but your local dealer can probably cut you a better deal.

[JIMTED79]

Originally posted by Klotz Director
Klotz Octane booster is a tetraethyl lead substitute. The cost varies depending on the size of the bottle. One Ounce will raise One Gallon of gas 2 1/2 points. This works up to 4 ounces for 10 points. Check out pricing on www.klotzlube.com, but your local dealer can probably cut you a better deal.

Thanks for the info I'll defiently look into that.

12:1 and what cam, if your running a high overlap like the HRC or stg 2 hotcam, you can run 93 no problem, if your just using the stock cam i still wouldnt see a problem with 93

also, the octane booster, i dont think thats a good idea, ive heard of some bad side affects of that on your engine, if they use the right solution it wouldnt cause a problem, but some companies dont, im not sure if they do or not, never used it

also raising 1hp by using race fuel, your engine makes the most power when using the least amount of octane possible for the engine to not ping, so how would that happen unless you were using oxygenator

as for aviation gas, bad idea, dont do it

and i just noticed your using a sparks cam, u can run 93 no problem, i wouldnt even worry

[Klotz Director]

[i]
also raising 1hp by using race fuel, your engine makes the most power when using the least amount of octane possible for the engine to not ping, so how would that happen unless you were using oxygenator
[/B]

The advantage in horsepower comes from the more complete combustion that occurs with race fuel. Oxygenators achieve a similar thing. Many octane boosters also claim to create the similar effect, but don't work. This is also why your spark plugs matter. They create this better combustion. As for octane. your engine runs best when it runs as lean as possible. Running TOO MUCH octane can create problems, but not as severe as running to little. There is a "window" in which most amateur racers will be fine if they over octane their engine.

Originally posted by Klotz Director
The advantage in horsepower comes from the more complete combustion that occurs with race fuel. Oxygenators achieve a similar thing. Many octane boosters also claim to create the similar effect, but don't work. This is also why your spark plugs matter. They create this better combustion. As for octane. your engine runs best when it runs as lean as possible. Running TOO MUCH octane can create problems, but not as severe as running to little. There is a "window" in which most amateur racers will be fine if the over octane their engine.

good point :macho