hot cams stage 1 or 2

[FAST400]

i am thinking of getting a hot cam to put in my 400ex.just wanted 2 ask which one is the better cam.i have a e series slip on,k&n,jetted,modded air box lid an everything else in motor is stock.i run in mid an upper rpm's most of the time,an the only racing i do is against my friends.im also thinking of getting a higher compression piston.wood i need 2 get stronger valve springs with the hot cam,or will the stock one work fine.

thanx 4 all the help!!!!!!!!!!

[Ex'r Marlin]

Originally posted by FAST400
would i need 2 get stronger valve springs with the hot cam,or will the stock one work fine. No, you should be just fine with your stock valve springs.

A friend of ours on here (440ex4me) Lenny, has a stage 1, and I understand that he is looking for a little more than what it offers. I went with a stage 2, which is still a "drop in cam", and it still uses your stock valves springs, and no need for harden rockers:cool:

Another friend of ours on here (Jhallet) Josh, recently got a stage 2 installed and noticed a very positive differece!:cool:

I quess it is up to you, but where you say you run your rpms at, I would personally recommend the stage 2 cam.

As for a higher compression piston...... Oh yeah!!!! (You may want to think about getting a stock bore high compression piston)

[PsychoDave]

DOES THE STAGE 2 GIVE BOTTOM END TOO? I HAVE A 416 AND A XR400 CAM AND I WAS LOOKING FOR A LITTLE BIT MORE FROM MY 416.....

[JhallettEX]

Dave, they say you will loose some bottom end, but after installing mine I did not notice any loss in the bottom end. Overall, The stage 2 is the way togo. Major increase in mid to top and it pulls so much harder.

[skemp]

I have the Stage 2, and I noticed a loss in the low end, but I would take 5 times the loss in low end for the improvement in top end. It is amazing. Best thing I have done so far is the 416 piston and HC.

[KingRage12]

You know, I have been browsing through these pages reading the replys and advise some of you guys share with each other and I would like to add my 2 cents, that is as a race engine builder. I have learned in my many years of putting these things together not to listen to some smuck I cant even see giving me advise on what works in an engine. I have years of experience in building dependable engines and the last thing one of you guys need to do is start tinkering on your own. Pay the experts to do the job. Its expensive for a reason. It takes time to "degree a cam in" and properly tune an engine. I specifically like the term stage 1 and 2 cam. What stage? A rider engine , B rider engine, what I guess a stage 3 would be a full pro race engine. Huh Huh, I tell you what. I will give you all a lesson that will make you think. Alright, here is an example of sales bull@##$ propaganda. Trinity boats there 440 big bore jacks the horsepower up on the 400 from 27 to 50! wow, you go 40 ccs with hardly anywork and you get 13hp. I dont think so, but you guys will believe anything you read. My advise is to be patient and join a local club and get hands on results. This is the only way you will be truly happy with the way you spend your money.
But I can tell you that there is relativly no differences in any of the exhaust except for looks and sound on the 400 untill you exceed 416 cc. I have a dyno and have seen the results. www.rageatv.com Call me on your nickel, and I will consult! Dee

[skemp]

You callin' me a smuck? :macho j/k ;)

Well, really though, who is the smuck here? I think everybody has given a response to the question with at least some basis and knowledge. We aren't engine builders, but we have some experience with the topic.

[VegasEx'r]

King, what the he!! are you talking about?!

First you call us smucks (BTW it's "schmuck" or "shmuck") because there is just NO WAY we could be capable of working on an engine by ourselves, since we are just lowly hobbyists, not all knowing professionals (I guess like you :huh ).

Then you berate us for being so stupid as to believe one of the professionals (Trinity), who you just told us to have do the work.

Finally, you tell us to, "be patient and join a local club and get hands on results." WTF do you think we are doing here???

Dude, you can't have it both ways (or all 3 ways, as it appears). Leave it to a pro, don't trust the pros (except for you, apparently), learn how to do it yourself. If you are trying to drum up business, there are better ways to do it than to insult potential customers & talk in circles to them.

No one here claims to be all knowing. I have seen a lot of good info, and a fair amount of misinformation & BS as well. It's all part of the wonderful thing we call the Internet. If you've got something helpful to share then share it, if you don't want to then that's fine, too, but there is no need to be rude.

I digress, I am now officially off the soap box...

27 to 50 = 23hp schumck

Hmmm Stage1 or Stage2? (we will get to the king later) :)

Ok here's the deal with the hot cam by my experience. I went with the stage1 due to a desire to keep the power in a lower rpm range (low end) for woods running etc. The problem is that the the specs on the stage1 are bogus. :( The original specs showed a good increase in lift over the stage2 and with a decrease in duration. this was what I was wanting (a smaller cheaper version of the web 479) but the cam I received has allmost the same exact lift as the stage2 and the duration is even a little lower than advertized.

What this has done basicly (besides pissn me off) is givin a good increase in power across the entire rpm range but just not enough of an increase due to the lower profile of the cam. :mad:

It does seem to have added more in the mid range than the others but also did not give up any bottom end and maybe even boosted it a little.

I do plan on testing the stage2 but not till I get all the other problems and mods finished. I expect that due to the similiar specs on lift and added duration the stage two should move the "power band" higher in the rpm range.

Here King here King,


You know, I have been browsing through these pages reading the replys and advise some of you guys share with each other and I would like to add my 2 cents, that is as a race engine builder. I have learned in my many years of putting these things together not to listen to some smuck I cant even see giving me advise on what works in an engine.
Honestly I cant completely disagree with this, and I will go it one further and add that even the telephone has shown some problems in the past and yes even with professional advise.


I have years of experience in building dependable engines and the last thing one of you guys need to do is start tinkering on your own. Pay the experts to do the job. Its expensive for a reason. It takes time to "degree a cam in" and properly tune an engine.
First off and listen verrrrry carefulllly and slowllllllly, I have had as many if not more problems with so called experts as I have had on my own, and it makes you wonder after spending all that hard earned cash paying an expensive expert why there are still problems and everything is not right, and why you need to spend more for your expeert to figure out/fix the problem.

I think that most of the people working on their own enginge mods would tell you that they enjoy it, its a good stress release time and produces a feeling of accomplishment no matter how wrong things may go.


I specifically like the term stage 1 and 2 cam. What stage? A rider engine , B rider engine, what I guess a stage 3 would be a full pro race engine. Huh Huh, I tell you what. I will give you all a lesson that will make you think. Alright, here is an example of sales bull@##$ propaganda. Trinity boats there 440 big bore jacks the horsepower up on the 400 from 27 to 50! wow, you go 40 ccs with hardly anywork and you get 13hp. I dont think so, but you guys will believe anything you read.
At first glance this appears to be nothing but a bash on the "believers" but after taking it apart you have both a very good point and some confusion. First if you dont want to get attacted by the readers here be sure not to include everyone with statements like "you guys" bla bla bla. Sure theres a lot of crap being pushed out there, but hey every engine builder I have taked with has some hyped up push for this or that. And yes those are mass production type cams (hot cams) and will not fit every application perfectly, but this seems to be the case in the ATV industry. Do you offer custom ground cams? If so are they priced competetivly with the production units?


My advise is to be patient and join a local club and get hands on results. This is the only way you will be truly happy with the way you spend your money.
Good thought and I believe this is what this forum is attempting to emulate.


But I can tell you that there is relativly no differences in any of the exhaust except for looks and sound on the 400 untill you exceed 416 cc. I have a dyno and have seen the results. www.rageatv.com Call me on your nickel, and I will consult! Dee
NO not the pipe question again:D You shouldnt get any arguments on this one, and if everyone can feel comfortable with using a engine builder (for work or advise) that has a problem with 50 - 27 (23hp!) maybe you could add more positive input in the future and maybe the readers here could find a new potential engine builder.

I know if you were local to me and had that dyno working properly we would be on a first name basis.



BTW I think we all would agree that no matter how boneheaded anyone may be if you arent looking for a fight it may be better not to tell how big a bonehead they are. :D :D

[Tlongs400]

DAG--THAT WAS GOOD:D

[KingRage12]

Alright Alright, you know I posted that last night and was half asleep. You guys are touchy! Let me explain a little better. I am the president of a local Quad racing association and I see a lot of people spending huge amounts of money, with horible results with there so called"hobbing, you call it". To me its pretty simple, you see what I am getting at is there are a ton of mail order companies out there that are selling pure bolt on crap. Some of it good, and some bad. One needs to really ask themselfs is the purchase that I about to make going to benifit me and make me feel good about what I bought. Possibly, but cosmetic concerns and speed concerns are worlds apart. Motor modifying is an art that takes years of refinement. I think I will take your advise and pass on some info to help some of the unsuspecting inocent.

In short, any time an engine is modified away from its origional design, compensation somewhere else must be done. Through my research I have found that the 400ex gains no performance gains from a larger headpipe until the rpm band is increase, or displacement is increased over 416cc. So buying a full exhaust for a stock machine is only cosmetic and will only hinder performance. Adding enormous carbs are redundant will the same rule in effect. The main reason compression is increase in a racing engine is to compensate for high overlap on bigger camshafts, although some touque is increased with this mod. Keeping it simple is the key. Small changes never satisfy anyone, so plan out your quest and match every component together. I am tired of typing so I will leave it at this... Buyer Beware, and I will consult, call me during bus hours for suggestions. Dee Rage ATV www.rageatv.com

.

Touchy, now thats putting it lightly. :)

i have to agree with your "mail order" statement as this industry is pretty big dollar wise and very little gets back into the sport. I cant say that I have personally had some of the nightmares that others have but the fact does remain that there are gazillions spent every year on useless bolt on crap. I had purchased my 400 used and am still trying to get the 440 kit dialed in right seven months later:(


I think I will take your advise and pass on some info to help some of the unsuspecting inocent.
I know that I am not alone in saying that I look forward to any reliable tech info that will benefit my set up and that ex-riders needs more tech based threads.

A big part of the problem up here is that there arent any "known" motor shops that have experience, affordability and availability (long delays). You wouldnt believe how long it took me to get a local auto/small motor machine shop to agree to decking the cylinder v/s shaving the head. This stuff is just very foreign to them and they dont have the experience.

There are a couple of small places that I have used for some work that have been ok but they still are not familiar with the little tricks on the 400ex.

I do agree with most of the rest of your posting, but keep in mind that these are things that a discussed here though maybe not enough and many of the people here really do have a firm grip on how not to throw their money away. That doesnt mean that their not going to go out and buy some expensive silly stuff, but hopefully they will gain enough knowledge not to go out and buy everything they saw on a quad at the last pro level race.

Remember that a lot of the parts available have not been fairly tested or evaluated (like deciding which pipe or suspension or even bore size) and I know we try to break it down into little pieces so we can see more clearly as to which mod does what compared to the competition. I am sure you can agree from a professionals standpoint that this info is just curiously missing and it leaves many inexperienced people with nothing but advertising, hype and bogus mag reviews to base their decisions. Hopefully thats where discussions like this can help to clear the air so maybe at least one person can avoid getting ripped off and having a bad experience.

Just look at the all the BS flying around in the debate over the smaller overbores (406-416 etc) and the bigger bore 440. I cant believe all the problems with the mfg's set up on most 440 kits. they are off by so much on the wrist pin location and piston heights etc that more than a few people here think that a smaller bore motor is more powerfull. Well if assembled to the kit mfg specs it very well could be. I am not even going to get fully into al the crap with cams now but I think you would agree its another problem area. This is just a couple of the many things that have been attempted to be "corrected" thru discussion on this site.

And if I can ever find a damn phone number on that site I am gonna call.

[KingRage12]

Well said, and I wish you luck with the 440 endeavor.
Rage ATV Racing 281-593-2481 Dee:cool: