250rs Forever 450s eat your heart out. [Archive]

FHKracingZ

01-11-2006, 02:02 PM

Ok buddy you do not know what you are talking about... Your throwing the # of 15:1 compression.. its 13:5 , thats 1.5 points difference, and it may no seem like much but it is... Also , it says webcams , you dont know if its a custom grind cam or even a drop in cam... you dont know !!! And Yes you can get more power out of a 250r for cheaper because theres usally less work to do.. 2 strokes are about as simple as they get... 4 strokes are very complicated... 2 stroke motor working can be done by almost anybody.. But 4 stroke motor working cant, chad502ex with his new porting , sparks , dan from dasa , its not a hobby to them its a science...
My friend who is a pro arena cross racer is putting out 63 RELIABLE horse out of a RMZ450 and puts 80-90 RACE and practice hours on his bike...
Also the key to matinence when having a aftermarket piston in a 4 stroke is taking care of it... All Aftermarket pistons are forged pistons.. Forged pistons have to warmup before they expand, for example. Ever seen a rebuilt 4 stroke smoke untill it gets warm? Thats because the piston isnt fully expanded yet and oil is slipping up through the gap... Look how much we have come with 4 strokes and they are only get faster... Theres so much variables you can do to a 4 stroke its not even funny.

250r's started it all and are still great race machines.. Face it 4 strokes are the future, face it.

jas250r

01-11-2006, 02:49 PM

Curious on what gas you have to run or what they ran on the 13.5 motor? When does alcohol strart for a four stroke? I know a guy here in mI that does sand dragging with trike 250r 's. He showed me a dyno sheet of 80hp running alky with of course all out drag porting and everything imaginable, can't rember what his time was in the 300ft. Don't give a !@#$ about arguing just wanted to know what gas that was ran on, pure curiousity!

slamdak8782

01-11-2006, 03:08 PM

Well I thought that you were speaking of joe byrds 60+ HP engine that Dan from Dasa built and he said in a thread that I read about his 60 + hp engine that it was a custum webcam grind. The CR was very near 15 to 1 and I really doubt that it is attainable as a reliable engine setup. Those engines have a13000 RPM rev limit and as far as me not knowing what Im talking about you dont even know me. Why would you think 2 strokes are so low tech. The fact that you say this shows me you dont know what your talking about. You think it is easy to build 2 strokes compared to 4 strokes. It is harder than what you might think the port timing and duration is determined by where the boost ports and exhaust port is in the head. There is no throw in a hotcam stage two and go for a mid to top end motor. I think two stroke work is more of a science. They are much harder to jet. They are easier to work on to rebuild but the porting is much harder on a two stroke. Both are a science and I agree 4 stroke are the next big thing. All I was saying from the begining is that mod for mod a 250r will whoop on the 450r. Am I saying this only because of the engine. No the 250r outperforms the 450r in teh suspension geometry department as well. You act like chad and Dan from Dasa are the only guys in the world who can do engine work. There is no magic to what they do and there are alot of guys out there who can build fast motors out there. Wild cams high compression pistons and port work. What is so sophisticated about that. I just getting more than little tired of people acting like building a fast quad is so hard to do, or that its a mystery to only the chosen engine building gods. Throw a good combo togethor and youll see power. I remember pulling down a 426 ex from TC racing and looking at it like thats it. The so called scientific porting was basic cleanup porting and a bead blast. So dont tell me I dont know whats going on. Why do you think engine builders wont ever show you there so called scientific porting. Ill tell you why because usually it is so easy to replicate that you could look at it and copy it. To me it is no longer a mystery. Do I think I could build a better engine. Maybe with time. The point is most builders not Dan want you to think it is to hard or complex so that you wont do it yourself.

FHKracingZ

01-11-2006, 04:55 PM

Accually my friend you know how many people have really F'd up a 4 stroke motor by trying to port themselvs?? You take just a .0001 off the wrong place and you can EASILY lose power. About you saying you can just throw is a cam and stuff like that , yes you are right. But throw in a Cam , piston , pipe , porting that all coincide to work toghter you will gain alot more horse... The cam DASA uses works great with his porting and it might not work so good with a HRC Cam or Hotcams Stage 2...
Or how about this , lets see you port a head... Ill give you a head and see how much work you get done... Getting the right air swirl into the head any other tricks are were your HP is gained. And Anybody that says they can port a good head is wrong. Unless you have a Flow Bench you dont know what your doing.... Theres only so much you can do to a 2 stroke.. There motors are limited as far and w/o going to a stroker or big bore... Lets take a stock bore / stroke 450r and you can do anything to the porting , head , carb you want.. Now take a stock stroke 450R and do anything to the porting , head, carb , piston or w/e you want and see who will win.
IF you think Dan or chad502ex dont know what they are doing just get into a little chat with them , they will make you feel so dumb you wont ever post on here again.

have a nice day :)

FHKracingZ

01-11-2006, 05:05 PM

and another thing... if the 250R Geometry is SOO great then how come they all use +1 forward a-arms :rolleyes: ... Its all personal preference... some like how the 250R steers some dont...

dork

01-11-2006, 10:59 PM

regarding the 60hp RHC yzf bike, i believe the cams were the 187/187.5 "race" cams. also i think he ran nutec 4 for fuel. the point was to show 60hp is attainable on stock bore/stroke. the crf motor is just as if not more capable. wonder if anyone has got 60hp on a stock bore/stroke 250r?

slamdak8782

01-12-2006, 01:11 AM

Hey bud you are misinformed they dont all use plus one forward A-arms. The 86 and 87 Rs were different from the 88 89 frames. On the 88 89 frames the arms were moved one inch forward and the rear swing arm was length was also changed so that the weight bias was better than the 86 87 frames. That is why they make plus one to fix the 86 87 R's. As far as the suspension why dont you ask Lonestar and laegers why they copied the geometry from the 250rs. Or maybe you can ponder why there was a yfz at 12 Hours of Pont de Vaux that took the time to change their yfz to a 250r geometry. Or maybe why duncan uses a chassis that is identical in geomtry to the 250r with the exception of the rear end using a cr500 link. Oh and who cares if a stock bore R doesnt get 60. If it is impossible. Macdizzy got 52 hp out of a stock bore. Who has a stock bore R now anyways. You can do a whole lot more than just put a bigger bore on a R. The porting specs on the R affect the timing so it is more complex to port. As far as things you can do to an 250r. Look up Lrd and look at some of the work they can perform. Look a dave more racing. Talk to dennis packard and see what he can get out of a stock bore R. I know for sure he could find 60 hp on a stock bore R. Enough money and it can be done. I am not understanding what you are saying about building a 450r stock bore stroke vs astock bore stroke 450r but I know I could find over 50hp and probably more. Not bad for a backyard mechanic. I know I can port and I have. I ported my 440 and my 250r. They both had gains not losses so hey what do you want? I know I am not chad Dan or curtis sparks but I can find power on my apps relatively cheaply and they are reliable and they make me happy. So I am done here I am not arguing anymore with you because this is retarded. My point is there are more poeple than Dan and Chad who can find power. At one point they were just like me screwing around in the garage. You can take that to the bank.

FHKracingZ

01-12-2006, 12:16 PM

Yes they can.. Did you do acual port work or just a port clean up... 2 different things ... Smoothing it out and accually taking material off are 2 totally different things.

slamdak8782

01-12-2006, 04:28 PM

On the R I did cleanup porting and on the 440 I increased the size of the intake by about 6mm so that it would be concentric and would inprove the velocity by making it the shape like a funnel the exhaust was ported to mirror shine. The guides were brought even with the intake walls. I had a 5 angle valve job done by a local machine shop for about 50 dollars they also shaved the head by.032. This increased my CR while still retaining the flat top for a very even burn and allowing higher CR with lower octane fuel Iam running around 11 to 1 CR on 93 octane. It runs well. The stock carb choke was removed by me then filled with JB weld. It starts very easy with the new 42 pilot. It runs on a 180 main jet. So yes it has very good velocity.

hanzito

01-13-2006, 10:25 AM

can someone please post a link to a website to find out more info on the cr500 conversion for the bottom end of a 250r. I am very interested.

Also the pissing match about getting more power out of a stock bore/stroke 250r vs a 450r is kinda retarded. Because you are compareing apples to oranges. 250cc vs 449cc. and 2 stroke vs 4 stroke. if you take equal displacement the 2 stroke will whoop up on the 4 stroke every time. Escpecially isf you use a power valve to smooth out ht epower.

wilkin250r

01-13-2006, 02:26 PM

I have to admit, them new 450's are awesome. It takes a LOT of work to get over 50HP from the stock bore and stroke on a 250r. And if you do get ove the 50HP mark on a stock bore/stroke, the powerband can't be used for much other than dragging or duning.

Them 450s can hit 50HP rather easily, and still have a that nice 4-stroke powerband that can be used for any type of riding.

However, there is also a flip-side to it. While the 4-strokes are getting better, and able to hit that 50HP mark a little easier, I don't see any of them pushing over 100HP. ;)

TURBO-530R

01-13-2006, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by slamdak8782
Fact also remains that their isnt a 350r or a 370r dyno on here. Well let see some. I really want to see a 450 hit 60 though. Anyways I'll belieive you just show me.

Here is a graph of a drag 530R. Maybe Jim can post some pics of the bike. This bike made 60hp on a +6 extended swingarm.
Mods are:
DASA Full Exhaust
DASA Filter
DASA Head
Dyna Setting-Curve 2
45 FCR Taperbore carb
Web 208/921 Cam
9:1 Comp
180mn

genoapb

01-13-2006, 03:44 PM

Well I kinda skimmed over the arguement you guys are having but this stock bore stock stroke comparison seems kinda unfair so if your going to compare a 530 4 stroke to our 250R's I think its only fair to post a 500cc R. Here is one of the sabertooth kit!!! Unless you put a huge turbo or something on that 4 stroke it will never hit these numbers. http://www.planetsand.com/memberphotos/325361-100hpSaberDyno.jpg

genoapb

01-13-2006, 03:48 PM

Heres a Pro X cylinder 370 kit!! http://www.planetsand.com/memberphotos/339141-dyno001.jpg

genoapb

01-13-2006, 03:51 PM

Pro X 314 73x75 bore and stroke!! http://www.planetsand.com/memberphotos/339493-image004.jpg

genoapb

01-13-2006, 04:00 PM

Heres the topper to be unfair in our advantage, turbo sabertooth!! http://www.planetsand.com/memberphotos/282298-15psi.jpg

FHKracingZ

01-13-2006, 04:24 PM

Ok ill go dyno are Turbo Busa... if u wanna be that technical about 4stroke vs. 2stroke

genoapb

01-13-2006, 04:52 PM

Dude, you know what the point is why are you trying to twist it? We are talking size for size here, now you want to talk about a 1300cc busa. Why not just say a top fuel funny car dyno at 5000hp!!? Try not to get all worked up, its not like im trying to start a war. Just posting some dyno sheets for comparison and im sure some the R guys would appreciate seeing them.

TheIceMan

01-13-2006, 05:03 PM

Hey genoapb,
do you have a sheet for a 295R? :cool:

thanks

chad502ex

01-13-2006, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by slamdak8782
If Chads 530 wasn't even over 60, how is a stock bore and stroke 450 going to hit 60.

Yes my 550 took-a-dump at 57, but my twin 530R made over 60.

So far, I've only seen 2 trx450R's that has dyno sheet proof to crack 60.
They are:
my 530R twin @ 61
and DASA Dans 550R @ 62.

and stay "tuned" for the stock bore DRG450R. I've already measured performancce gains that made me do this :eek2:

Mobile Dyno

01-15-2006, 04:25 AM

Originally posted by chad502ex

and stay "tuned" for the stock bore DRG450R. I've already measured performancce gains that made me do this :eek2:

Me too!!:eek2: :eek: :devil:

400excracer

01-15-2006, 03:26 PM

Dont get me wrong I love 2 strokes, but it just seems that some of these 2 stoke guys are spending way more money than they should to keep these dinosaurs competative and running. I would like to get a 2 stroke just ride once in a while. There is nothing like the feel of a 2 stoke hitting the powerband. But 4 strokes are the future, just look what the top Supercross riders run. It seems like some 2 stoke guys have a chip on their shoulder and are trying to prove something.

slamdak8782

01-16-2006, 08:46 PM

I personally dont have a chip on my shoulder. I was tired of the Rs being under represented on this site. Not to mention the fact that most every kid on here thinks his 450 would destroy all. I started this dyno thread so people could see the facts with a dyno. I didnt want some guy saying my R is really fast with no evidence. What I dont like is people not giving the R its proper respect. That dinosaur should get the respect it deserves. Also to show the R is not gone . We should restore these quads and ride them. That is what they R for. Finally I was not trying to say stock for stock the 450 and 250 are on an even plane. that was something that came later and I knew I was reaching when I was drug into that argument. However how many 250rs are stock now, and mod for mod the 250 will be the faster quad. 2stroke power is a little harder to ride, but what a rush. For racing I would prefer the 450r for the broad powerband, stock for stock. But I would probably take a powervalve worked R over the 450 no matter what the displacement. They are cool to look at and if you have one people admire it when they see them. So ok the 450 is the new quad but the 250 is still around and will never be replaced. I just hope this will gain a little respect for the 250r. Do I have a chip on my shoulder? Well if I do , the reason why would be because people are trying to forget the R because of it being a 2 stroke. Almost like the ATC's. Also the move that required all pro production to be production based model. It was necessary so that the 450s could win otherwise they still would be second best and the 250r would still be king. I guess that kinda bothers me but oh well time marches on. They both are cool quads.

hondardr4life

02-19-2006, 12:36 PM

I agree 100% with what you just said. I like 450r's and I give them a lot of credit, but I am SICK of the 250r not getting any respect anymore. All these people are so cocky with their stock or piped 450r's and they think they can destroy our 250's. The bottom line is that you can get 50 hp out of a 250r with just a good pipe, rad valve, port job, 265cc bore, 38mm carb, filter, and shaved head. To get that out of a 450, you have to pipe/ cam/ filter/ high comp piston/ port/ and maybe a carb. They are both pretty close, but the 250 will end up costing way less to make fast. I like both quads, but noone gives the 250r credit anymore, and it definetly deserves it.

robjohn74

02-20-2006, 11:10 PM

here is the fastest 250r.... i have ran with it and it is very fast there is no way a new four choke will come close to it...

http://saberracing.com/index.php?id=2,7,0,0,1,0

400exrider707

02-22-2006, 01:27 PM

Oooh this is getting good, let me go grab a bag of popcorn....:p

Eddiesanders250

02-25-2006, 10:03 PM

lol I agree with him ^^^. Im with the original R all the way.

Rich250RRacer

02-26-2006, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by slamdak8782
Hey bud you are misinformed they dont all use plus one forward A-arms. The 86 and 87 Rs were different from the 88 89 frames. On the 88 89 frames the arms were moved one inch forward and the rear swing arm was length was also changed so that the weight bias was better than the 86 87 frames. That is why they make plus one to fix the 86 87 R's. As far as the suspension why dont you ask Lonestar and laegers why they copied the geometry from the 250rs. Or maybe you can ponder why there was a yfz at 12 Hours of Pont de Vaux that took the time to change their yfz to a 250r geometry. Or maybe why duncan uses a chassis that is identical in geomtry to the 250r with the exception of the rear end using a cr500 link. Oh and who cares if a stock bore R doesnt get 60. If it is impossible. Macdizzy got 52 hp out of a stock bore. Who has a stock bore R now anyways. You can do a whole lot more than just put a bigger bore on a R. The porting specs on the R affect the timing so it is more complex to port. As far as things you can do to an 250r. Look up Lrd and look at some of the work they can perform. Look a dave more racing. Talk to dennis packard and see what he can get out of a stock bore R. I know for sure he could find 60 hp on a stock bore R. Enough money and it can be done. I am not understanding what you are saying about building a 450r stock bore stroke vs astock bore stroke 450r but I know I could find over 50hp and probably more. Not bad for a backyard mechanic. I know I can port and I have. I ported my 440 and my 250r. They both had gains not losses so hey what do you want? I know I am not chad Dan or curtis sparks but I can find power on my apps relatively cheaply and they are reliable and they make me happy. So I am done here I am not arguing anymore with you because this is retarded. My point is there are more poeple than Dan and Chad who can find power. At one point they were just like me screwing around in the garage. You can take that to the bank.

I have to back you on almost everything you've said, but the arms were not moved forward on the 88-89 chassis. The chassis mounting points are all identical, I've measured all years. The difference is in the arms themselves, which I'm going to check also, I've got a few sets lying around and I want to see the actual difference in them.

Rich250RRacer

02-26-2006, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by slamdak8782
I personally dont have a chip on my shoulder. I was tired of the Rs being under represented on this site. Not to mention the fact that most every kid on here thinks his 450 would destroy all. I started this dyno thread so people could see the facts with a dyno. I didnt want some guy saying my R is really fast with no evidence. What I dont like is people not giving the R its proper respect. That dinosaur should get the respect it deserves. Also to show the R is not gone . We should restore these quads and ride them. That is what they R for. Finally I was not trying to say stock for stock the 450 and 250 are on an even plane. that was something that came later and I knew I was reaching when I was drug into that argument. However how many 250rs are stock now, and mod for mod the 250 will be the faster quad. 2stroke power is a little harder to ride, but what a rush. For racing I would prefer the 450r for the broad powerband, stock for stock. But I would probably take a powervalve worked R over the 450 no matter what the displacement. They are cool to look at and if you have one people admire it when they see them. So ok the 450 is the new quad but the 250 is still around and will never be replaced. I just hope this will gain a little respect for the 250r. Do I have a chip on my shoulder? Well if I do , the reason why would be because people are trying to forget the R because of it being a 2 stroke. Almost like the ATC's. Also the move that required all pro production to be production based model. It was necessary so that the 450s could win otherwise they still would be second best and the 250r would still be king. I guess that kinda bothers me but oh well time marches on. They both are cool quads.

I don't follow GNC at all, but the 250R's were forced out of the Pro ranks in the GNCC, and I'll bet Yamaha (GNCC's biggset sponsor at the time) had alot to do with that. The year before the rule change, nearly everybody switched to four-strokes and Borich stayed the his R. He destroyed everybody. In fact, Balance had to break out his old R at the Ironman to win. I guess it all came down to politics. Yamaha just couldn't handle the embarassment of getting B**** slapped by "20 year old" technology.

hondardr4life

02-26-2006, 06:15 PM

I agree with mostly everything you guys have said. But there is no point in trying to convince these 4 stroke people... Like somebody said before, every kid with his piped 450r on here thinks he can destroy all, and nothing will change their mind.

JR3

02-26-2006, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by slamdak8782
Just so everyone knows the facts on what a 250r can do. I didnt want all these young guys to be misled. Oh and by the way. The biggest bore I put on here was a 330 and 250r can be built to a 600cc beast. So any 450s think they can top that?
also take into account reliability

zeppelin

02-26-2006, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by Rich250RRacer
I don't follow GNC at all, but the 250R's were forced out of the Pro ranks in the GNCC, and I'll bet Yamaha (GNCC's biggset sponsor at the time) had alot to do with that. The year before the rule change, nearly everybody switched to four-strokes and Borich stayed the his R. He destroyed everybody. In fact, Balance had to break out his old R at the Ironman to win. I guess it all came down to politics. Yamaha just couldn't handle the embarassment of getting B**** slapped by "20 year old" technology.
you mean they actualy allowed some one to race a quad that had been fine tuned over 20 years untill it was near perfection. against a first year quad :eek2:. when yall talk about how great your Rs are just remember how much of it is actualy original honda. if you want to bring your 20 year old 2 smokes back after the yfz has had 20 years of modding done to it, and then race them. then,you can compare them like that.

135boom

02-27-2006, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by hondardr4life
I agree with mostly everything you guys have said. But there is no point in trying to convince these 4 stroke people... Like somebody said before, every kid with his piped 450r on here thinks he can destroy all, and nothing will change their mind.

.................kind of like every old fart on here with his old school 250 cant get over the fact that there machines are going on "ancient" and that new better things are out!
ha ha ha.

It cracks me up, some of what has been said on here. YES, absolutely, the 250r has to be given respect. HOWEVER, the power that those things put out is really not that spectacular anymore. STOCK 450's are putting out 40 horse. Pipe, intake, jetting, cammod your just shy of 50. Do high comp piston and you are there or slightly over. My setup right now on a yfz 439 is a WB carbon pro II, fuel customs intake, yz needle and proper jetting, cammod with crower intake cam, and gytr high comp piston 13.1 and am running in the mid 50's. There are plenty of guys out there running stock bore 439's that are almost pushing 60 horse. Also, that power that I am putting out is broad and across the board. The 250's is either on or off.
I'll give respect to the 'ol 250's for being awesome handlers on the track, but power wise, they have been more than beat!
CURRENT 250cc motors are putting out about 45 horse stock and thats on dirtbikes. CURRENT 450 motors are making about 50 stock on the dirt bikes.
If you want to go all insane with big bores, thats fine, Im sure you can make some good power. I'll be the one driving by laughing though when your motor pops!

hondardr4life

02-27-2006, 07:03 PM

I'm not old buddy. Show me a dyno of 40 HP on a stock yfz... I HIGHLY doubt you can get into the mid 50's on a 450 without a port job. I have yet to see one.

xx3003xrdrxx

02-27-2006, 07:04 PM

135boom

02-28-2006, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by hondardr4life
I'm not old buddy. Show me a dyno of 40 HP on a stock yfz... I HIGHLY doubt you can get into the mid 50's on a 450 without a port job. I have yet to see one.

Hey look, I was just kidding around withthe old fart thing. Sorry. As far as a stock yfz making 40, look around. they are always making 39-40 horse bone stock with dyno tires. Mine dyno'd 39.7.....so ok....not 40......but close enough. You must be thinking with knobbies or something.
I do not have porting done yet...I have the WB carbon pro II, Fuel customs intake w/o lid (new, better than any other out there by 1-2 horse across the range) yz needle and proper jetting, cammod and crower gen III intake cam, gytr 13.1 piston, gytr cdi
53.2 horse power with slicks.
With my exact setup (different pipe), but WITH the porting there are several guys getting 58-59 horse on a stock bore over at yfztech.
So tell me again how this is not possible. How we are all getting these results?
Tell me again......how scared of a 250r I should be in the power department.
Tell me again how your ancient 250cc is going to out perform the brand new 250cc 2- strokes out there right now, that are making 45 horse at the wheel on a DIRT BIKE, compared to a 450 making about 50 at the wheel and 61 at the crank?
AND.....if (which maybe they indeed do) have better geometry then the brand new honda 450r.....why would honda make a lesser machine then what they had is the mid 80's. Doesnt make sence. THEY ARE OUT TO WIN......not make a slow poor handling piece of crap. I will agree that is stock trim, when I rode the trx450, I thought it was tipsy, compared to a yfz and a 250r. Then only thing the 250 has going for it is weight and CG. As far as geometry goes, the 250 stock is no better.
Let that old 80's beast go.......geez, pro mxrs still have the choice to be riding the old 2-stroke 250's, and yet almost every single one of them rides a 450.....and those that do sometime ride a 250 have a 450 for the majority of the time........... they only race the 250 on occasion.....wonder why that is......wonder why they dont go pull out a 87 cr 250 and try to keep up with the newer 250's and 450's........hmmmm.....I wonder???

Dont get pissed at me cause I bring up a point. You dont have to agree with it, but there is no reason for some of you to call names. Counter me on it like "hondardr4life" did.
Talk to you later

135boom

02-28-2006, 01:08 PM

"hondardr4life " i dont have a scanner to put my dyno on here, but there are others I am sure on this vary site that have dyno'd a stock yfz.

"mobiledyno" is one, he said the trx was making 38-39 and the yfz 40-41.
Yfz seems a touch high, but never the less. They are right about 40 rear wheel horse power, with slicks.
Almost every major mag has said the same. Except of course the new dirtwheels that used knobbies on both and didnt apply verticel restraint worth a crap to the yfz, giving into wheel spin IMO.
I know a lot of guys over at yfztech always got 39 horse from there 439 and seems like about 40 or so on the 449.
happy hunting!

hondardr4life

02-28-2006, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by 135boom
Hey look, I was just kidding around withthe old fart thing. Sorry. As far as a stock yfz making 40, look around. they are always making 39-40 horse bone stock with dyno tires. Mine dyno'd 39.7.....so ok....not 40......but close enough. You must be thinking with knobbies or something.
I do not have porting done yet...I have the WB carbon pro II, Fuel customs intake w/o lid (new, better than any other out there by 1-2 horse across the range) yz needle and proper jetting, cammod and crower gen III intake cam, gytr 13.1 piston, gytr cdi
53.2 horse power with slicks.
With my exact setup (different pipe), but WITH the porting there are several guys getting 58-59 horse on a stock bore over at yfztech.
So tell me again how this is not possible. How we are all getting these results?
Tell me again......how scared of a 250r I should be in the power department.
Tell me again how your ancient 250cc is going to out perform the brand new 250cc 2- strokes out there right now, that are making 45 horse at the wheel on a DIRT BIKE, compared to a 450 making about 50 at the wheel and 61 at the crank?
AND.....if (which maybe they indeed do) have better geometry then the brand new honda 450r.....why would honda make a lesser machine then what they had is the mid 80's. Doesnt make sence. THEY ARE OUT TO WIN......not make a slow poor handling piece of crap. I will agree that is stock trim, when I rode the trx450, I thought it was tipsy, compared to a yfz and a 250r. Then only thing the 250 has going for it is weight and CG. As far as geometry goes, the 250 stock is no better.
Let that old 80's beast go.......geez, pro mxrs still have the choice to be riding the old 2-stroke 250's, and yet almost every single one of them rides a 450.....and those that do sometime ride a 250 have a 450 for the majority of the time........... they only race the 250 on occasion.....wonder why that is......wonder why they dont go pull out a 87 cr 250 and try to keep up with the newer 250's and 450's........hmmmm.....I wonder???

Dont get pissed at me cause I bring up a point. You dont have to agree with it, but there is no reason for some of you to call names. Counter me on it like "hondardr4life" did.
Talk to you later

No offense taken on the old comment. What I meant by it is that I am not old at all, hahaha, im actually 16. I'd love to have a 450, but I don't just for money reasons. I do disaree however on when you said that the pro's have a choice. They don't have a choice though, since it is pro production, plus noone will sponser people with 250's anymore. Also, everyone out there wants a factory sponsership, and no factories will sponser riders on 250's. 450's deserve a lot of credit too, but I just get annoyed with the other kid my age who have stock, or slightly modded 450's and they think they can absolutely destroy all. I am personally not that worried about top speed, I'm mainly into track performance. 450's are definetly good, but the 250r will still run right with them. It's just annoying how 2 years ago the 250r was the greatest thing since canned beer and sliced bread, and now most peopel say it sucks.

dork

02-28-2006, 04:22 PM

too bad you guys can't ride the dyno's in the dirt...

one fact is the 4strokes have better power curves than the 2strokes. look at a yfz @9500, you better be shifting if you're on the 250 or you're getting passed.

fmfracing5

03-01-2006, 05:37 PM

the 250r hasnt had 20years of tuning and modding, it was only in production for 3 years, inless your talking about aftermarket then yea this i there 20th ann. this year

135boom

03-02-2006, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by hondardr4life
No offense taken on the old comment. What I meant by it is that I am not old at all, hahaha, im actually 16. I'd love to have a 450, but I don't just for money reasons. I do disaree however on when you said that the pro's have a choice. They don't have a choice though, since it is pro production, plus noone will sponser people with 250's anymore. Also, everyone out there wants a factory sponsership, and no factories will sponser riders on 250's. 450's deserve a lot of credit too, but I just get annoyed with the other kid my age who have stock, or slightly modded 450's and they think they can absolutely destroy all. I am personally not that worried about top speed, I'm mainly into track performance. 450's are definetly good, but the 250r will still run right with them. It's just annoying how 2 years ago the 250r was the greatest thing since canned beer and sliced bread, and now most peopel say it sucks.

......Well good. Didnt want to piss anyone off with my sarcasm. I am not that old either, but I have 10 years on ya. I dont believe I ever said that the quad racers really have much of an option anymore as far as racing 250r's. I was saying that on the mx track on 2-wheels, you dont see guys getting on 87 cr 250's and trying to keep up with NEW 250's and 450f's. IN FACT, most EVERYONE has switched to 450's, even though 250's are still aloud on 2-wheels. Very seldom do you see a 250 on the track anymore. Most people have realized there is more HP and a broad power range on the 450 as oppose to the 250. The 250's still have there +'s though on short tight tracks. But the 450's reak havic on anything bigger. Even the 2-stroke nuts have seen the light on 2-wheels.
I also dont want you thinking that me, or anyone else was trying to say the 250r went from the best to the worst and that they are pieces of crap now. THEY ARE NOT. That is still hands down the bset for the money if you ask me. But if you do have the money I think HANDS DOWN the new 450s are much better. 250's will probably always hold there own in the handling department, but the power department is lacking and is 20 years old now!
Anyway, talk to you later. Glad know ones mad!

trx250rkid

03-02-2006, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by 135boom
......Well good. Didnt want to piss anyone off with my sarcasm. I am not that old either, but I have 10 years on ya. I dont believe I ever said that the quad racers really have much of an option anymore as far as racing 250r's. I was saying that on the mx track on 2-wheels, you dont see guys getting on 87 cr 250's and trying to keep up with NEW 250's and 450f's. IN FACT, most EVERYONE has switched to 450's, even though 250's are still aloud on 2-wheels. Very seldom do you see a 250 on the track anymore. Most people have realized there is more HP and a broad power range on the 450 as oppose to the 250. The 250's still have there +'s though on short tight tracks. But the 450's reak havic on anything bigger. Even the 2-stroke nuts have seen the light on 2-wheels.
I also dont want you thinking that me, or anyone else was trying to say the 250r went from the best to the worst and that they are pieces of crap now. THEY ARE NOT. That is still hands down the bset for the money if you ask me. But if you do have the money I think HANDS DOWN the new 450s are much better. 250's will probably always hold there own in the handling department, but the power department is lacking and is 20 years old now!
Anyway, talk to you later. Glad know ones mad!

yea i think everyone has to agree that the 250r is down on power but if you get a nice powervalve topend and stuff on it, they can still be just as competitive as the 450s. theres really no way that u can say no to that. i mean take jeremiah jones for example. in '03 or '04, watever the last year he rode his 265PV was, he wasnt down on power at all. he used to pull holeshots over the crf450 hybrids which were just as fast as the new production quads. thats basically proof that 250rs can still be just as fast as 450s without having huge big bore cylinders
By the way that whole thing about how u dont see people racing 87 cr250s anymore doesnt really make that much sense. dirtbikes have taken a much bigger step in technology in the past 20 years than quads have. Dirtbikes are 10X better in every way than they were 20 years ago. they're better in handling,power, weight, and suspension. The only thing that quads improved on is that the motors are a little better.
im not someone thats saying the 250rs can smoke the 450s, but they definately dont GET smoked by 450s.

robjohn74

03-02-2006, 07:32 PM

i dont think that a new 450 can get more hp than this 250r.........

http://saberracing.com/index.php?id=2,7,0,0,1,0

hondardr4life

03-03-2006, 04:37 AM

Originally posted by 135boom
......Well good. Didnt want to piss anyone off with my sarcasm. I am not that old either, but I have 10 years on ya. I dont believe I ever said that the quad racers really have much of an option anymore as far as racing 250r's. I was saying that on the mx track on 2-wheels, you dont see guys getting on 87 cr 250's and trying to keep up with NEW 250's and 450f's. IN FACT, most EVERYONE has switched to 450's, even though 250's are still aloud on 2-wheels. Very seldom do you see a 250 on the track anymore. Most people have realized there is more HP and a broad power range on the 450 as oppose to the 250. The 250's still have there +'s though on short tight tracks. But the 450's reak havic on anything bigger. Even the 2-stroke nuts have seen the light on 2-wheels.
I also dont want you thinking that me, or anyone else was trying to say the 250r went from the best to the worst and that they are pieces of crap now. THEY ARE NOT. That is still hands down the bset for the money if you ask me. But if you do have the money I think HANDS DOWN the new 450s are much better. 250's will probably always hold there own in the handling department, but the power department is lacking and is 20 years old now!
Anyway, talk to you later. Glad know ones mad!

I agree 100% with what you said about best for the money. If I was 26, or out of collage or something, I would definetly have a built 450. Just at this time, I have like no money, and I need to buy a car soon too. I only paid $3200 for my quad, and once I'm done with it, I will have anout another 1000-1500 in it. It had a lot of mods to start with, i'm just getting everything back into perfect running shape. So thats adds up to around 4500, I could have maybe got a stock or piped 450r for that much. Then I would have to drop at least 8 grand modding it. So for me, and other kids my age, the 250r just makes sense, and will still make enough power to keep up.

knelson

03-03-2006, 07:27 AM

Is it always about being better than this or that quad? Hell I ride these things to have FUN (Imagine that?), I own a 450er and the power is pretty amazing I also think I could put down a better lap time on it with out being as tired as riding my 250r (310cc) but, I feel like I am going 10 times as fast on the 250r and It's just alot more fun to ride granted it takes more work.You think I would get rid of my 450er and only ride my 250r,I don't think so (definatly not on our night trail rides!)On the onther hand I am going to winchester bay next wendsday, When I get there which one do you think I will unload first? :devil:

135boom

03-03-2006, 11:58 AM

"By the way that whole thing about how u dont see people racing 87 cr250s anymore doesnt really make that much sense. dirtbikes have taken a much bigger step in technology in the past 20 years than quads have. Dirtbikes are 10X better in every way than they were 20 years ago. they're better in handling,power, weight, and suspension. The only thing that quads improved on is that the motors are a little better.
im not someone thats saying the 250rs can smoke the 450s, but they definately dont GET smoked by 450s. [/B][/QUOTE] "

..........I just wanted to say the reason I said that is I think quads have come a LONG way. Yes, your absolutely right that quads are not up to par with dirtbikes....yet, but they have made significant advances, and it all started when the yfz came out on 2004. Race suspension. Race motor. Race geometry. Sure, the thing didnt come with elkas, and a tuned to the max race motor, nor did it have a aluminum frame, but by god how much of a difference it was then the current "sport" quads out at the time. To say that there has not been atleast 5-6 steps to the 10 you say the dirtbikes take is rediculous. They have taken huge steps from the days of the 250r, especially in STOCK trim.
I was mostly bringing that argument up, because of the power difference that exsists today. 450's are putting out more HP (50) and lots more torque and its across the board. The current 250's are making about 45 horse stock, a lot less torque and the power is anything BUT across the board. What I was trying to show, is not only where some people comparing a 250 to a 450, but you guys are comparing the 450's to the OLD SCHOOL 250's, hince the reason I said its like taking on a brand new crf450 with a 87 cr250. The difference is huge.
Anyway, just thought I would explain myself a little deaper
Talk to you later

135boom

03-03-2006, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by hondardr4life
I agree 100% with what you said about best for the money. If I was 26, or out of collage or something, I would definetly have a built 450. Just at this time, I have like no money, and I need to buy a car soon too. I only paid $3200 for my quad, and once I'm done with it, I will have anout another 1000-1500 in it. It had a lot of mods to start with, i'm just getting everything back into perfect running shape. So thats adds up to around 4500, I could have maybe got a stock or piped 450r for that much. Then I would have to drop at least 8 grand modding it. So for me, and other kids my age, the 250r just makes sense, and will still make enough power to keep up.

...........Yeah man, I dont blame you one bit. If I was out for a mx quad and didnt have a lot of money, I would FOR SURE go with the 250r.
Its just like the position my cousin was in recently. He wanted a yfz450, but couldnt afford it. I told him to get a banshee, as FOR THE MONEY, its the fastest best handling quad for open class type riding you can get IMO. The seat hight is low, its not tipsy, and has plenty of power. AND, its fun! We ride a lot of fire roads and woods type stuff, along with occasional MX. Thats why I steared him that way, instead of the 250, as I thin k the 250's a little lost in the wide open stuff!

slamdak8782

03-04-2006, 07:03 PM

250rs are better THE END

trx250rkid

03-04-2006, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by slamdak8782
250rs are better THE END

haha AMEN:devil:

FHKracingZ

03-04-2006, 10:48 PM

Jones R he ran in 03 was a 330r.

hondardr4life

03-05-2006, 04:13 PM

:huh :huh What are you talking about?? He ran a 265PV. Unless you are talkign about open class. But I believe he was still running a 265 when he was running against all the crf hybrids.

450rJam

03-07-2006, 08:18 PM

I have an 87 250r and an 06 450r and both are fun but if im really pissed (at wife,kids,taxes haha anything) the 250r is great anger management. 450r is also great. two totaly diff. ways to have fun. like skiing (snow, water ) its all fun

trx250rkid

03-08-2006, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by FHKracingZ
Jones R he ran in 03 was a 330r.

yea dude jones' bike was a 265. If it was a 330, why would LRD sell a 265 jeremiah jones replica cylinder kit?

ESR250R

03-09-2006, 09:37 PM

yep JJ was on a LRD 265 pv. the 450's and 250r's are very close in the power department. a good portjob on a 250r will get you right with any piped 450, and your powervalve 265r will get you right alongside a worked 450. a good pv 265r should have no problem getting 52-60 hp, plus the 250r will be a little lighter and have closer gearing. the 250r handles just as good if not better than any of the newer quads due to a lower center of gravity. if you think for one second that JJ or alot of other racers wouldnt switch back to the 250r if they could get the benefits/backing there getting now, your dead wrong. pro production and factory backing is what killed the 250r on the racing scene.

450rJam

03-10-2006, 04:02 AM

AMEN..............you got it, and i love my 450r.

400exrider707

03-21-2006, 01:51 PM

Im actually quite surprised that this thread took a turn for informational instead of useless bickering.

Ok so stock for stock I would say that the 450 is the best hands down over the 250. BONE STOCK! Once you start modding both then I say they could be even, depending on mods.

hondarder4life - I only paid $3200 for my quad, and once I'm done with it, I will have anout another 1000-1500 in it. It had a lot of mods to start with, i'm just getting everything back into perfect running shape. So thats adds up to around 4500, I could have maybe got a stock or piped 450r for that much.

I have a hair more than $4000 into my 450 including the purchase price and I have it to where I can race it now, including suspension.

Iliketogofast

03-26-2006, 11:15 AM

I think 62hp is a possibility with stock bore and stroke. Anyway, isn't the legal limit for 2 strokes 265 now?

If that's so, 62 hp is definatley a possibility. So if you were to make it fair and give both quads max legal size limit, I think that you could get much more horsepower, and of course less weight from a two stroke

hondardr4life

03-26-2006, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by 400exrider707
Im actually quite surprised that this thread took a turn for informational instead of useless bickering.

Ok so stock for stock I would say that the 450 is the best hands down over the 250. BONE STOCK! Once you start modding both then I say they could be even, depending on mods.

hondarder4life - I only paid $3200 for my quad, and once I'm done with it, I will have anout another 1000-1500 in it. It had a lot of mods to start with, i'm just getting everything back into perfect running shape. So thats adds up to around 4500, I could have maybe got a stock or piped 450r for that much.

I have a hair more than $4000 into my 450 including the purchase price and I have it to where I can race it now, including suspension.

So you are saying that you have $4000 plus the price of the quad, or a total of $4000 meaning price of quad plus all modifications. I can believe a full LT pep/ JB suspension setup for $4000 because that is pretty close to what that setup costs. But then you haveto figure in the motor. To get a 450r HP wise up to where my 250 is, youre going to need a pipe, cam, piston at least. Maybe a port job too, but the port would put it a little over mine. I've rode a lot of 450's and none are that impressive. My friend just got his FULL baldwin motor finished (same motor as Tim Farr), so I am anxious to find out if he will even let me ride it now, but if I do ride it, I can't wait to see what kind of power it has. I think that if I was to get a 450, I would haveto get the full baldwin motor, and that costs around $3000 alone.

kandk_racer25

03-30-2006, 12:39 PM

I have an 88' 250R with cool head 19cc dome stock bore port job pipe and carb and it is right there with my buddies piped yfz and 450r 250R all the way

Iliketogofast

04-18-2006, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by FHKracingZ
Ok ill go dyno are Turbo Busa... if u wanna be that technical about 4stroke vs. 2stroke

You're a dumbass. That's a 4 cylinder crotch rocket motor, you can't compare it with a single cylinder 2 stroke.

Now let's see somebody get the 100 hp mark with a 450, 530, whatever. Anybody.

Just like Wilkin said, it's not going to happen.

And I forgot to mention that even when 450's have lots of power, they still feel slow.

Just look at this - how many 2 stroke ute's do you see? They are all four strokes. That's what four strokes are good for.

walsh450rHonda

05-06-2006, 02:49 PM

My god, I can't believe I read this entire thread. I must have no life. I read each post hoping for some extension of the arguement. First you guys have to consider application. No one would take a 100+ HP quad on a motocross track. Next did anyone mention TORQUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The affect that torque has on maintaining HP has alot to do with the ease of rideability of a 4stroke. A 4stroke can have slightly less HP but much more torque and still be faster from point A to point B. Also a motocross ATV with more than 60hp is hard and tireing to ride unless your a top Pro. Many of them like motor builds in the mid 50's. If your discussing pure dragracing the 4 stroke does not have a chance. The two stroke has a technological advantage at cc for cc comparison. That is why in all forms of racing the rules are written as to almost double cc size for 4strokes. This rule allowes for equal competition of both technologies. So if you are going to compare a 500cc saber motor, very impressive had me drooling, you must look at a 950 to 1000 cc 4stroke engine. If you turbo charge both and run alcohol or nitromethane, or what ever they will be very close. Now the only 950 to 1000cc engines we can look at are mostly street bike engines witch are mostly multiple cylinder which skews the arguement. But this is also a technology advantage of the 4stroke. You can take this further and look at multiple cylinder snowmoble engines that are 2stroke. There is a local shop getting more than 300 HP!!!!! Then we need to look at reliability under boost. 4strokes can handle more boost pressure for a longer duration. Turbo 2strokes often need rebuilt after a weekend of fun.

Back to which is faster on a motocross track? Well this should end this discussion. On almost every national track 4stroke ridden atvs have set new records for fastest lap times and total times of the amount of laps per race. Also Corey Ellis set the 3rd or 4th fastest lap time ever on any machine, 2 or 4 wheels, at Red Bud. I think its Red Bud, it is the national track in Michigan though. The only lap times that beat him were by Ricky Carmichael. Those were his best laps in over a 10 year career. So Corey Ellis was riding faster than all other 2 wheeled pros. Now that is a serious acheivement for ATV's. When you guys talk about atv technology being behind that does not show true in overall performance. Perhaps ATV's were just years ahead of Dirtbikes in the late 80's and a 10 year absence has not really hurt us.

Just remember you cant compare a saber 500cc drag engine to a motocross track engine. Compare it to what it should be compared to a 900cc Plus 4 stroke engine and then make your conclusions. If one is turbo then the other should be the same. Also I have seen a Dyno chart on a DS 650 that was bored to 750cc. It had a turbo and hit 117Hp. Plus the torque was over 100 ft/lbs. I've seen videos of it eating 125 hp banshees. Tell me what you think.

MR.BIG

05-08-2006, 01:22 PM

A couple years from now all of you 4 stroke haters will probably be riding one. The 250r's are great machines but you some of you seem to have a problem with the new 4 strokes. Ride what you like and stop *****ing about what someone else likes better. It's all preference and I had many 250r's but after having my 450r I wouldn't go back.:huh

450rJam

05-08-2006, 09:46 PM

well said mr big
I bought a 450r and sold my 250r with no regrets.
I'm glad I was able to own and carve the dunes on a piece of history.
the 250r is no punk still to this day but its like a classic old muscle car, there will always be a following and everyone will always respect it.
but only a fool will argue the fact that a new kid is on the block and he is ruleing the neighborhood.
the 450's are doing what the 400's couldnt.

And I am not nieve enough to believe that the 450's or any other atv will last as long on top as the 250r. (not even the banshee)

H-bombwarrior

05-18-2006, 01:31 PM

i personaly like the 250r better than the 450r deftinatly on track,but as far as trail rideing goes i would much rather have the 450 simply becuase of its 4 stroke motor. my 86' suzuki lt250r quadracer that i used to have it was really bad about foulling plugs on the trail mainly becuase didnt have enough space to run it hard enough to stop the carbon from building up on the plug

slamdak8782

05-20-2006, 08:06 AM

Hey i didnt mean to start a war. You can argue ll day about this but you are coming on too a thread about 250r's and *****ing about us talking about 250r's. Now I dont really get why you are mad at me for saying a 250r is superior but to each his own. I know that I love my 250 and I think that to get rid of one for a four stroke. You must be crazy. Also when we talk about old muscle cars how many guys say man that car was so great. Next statement is man I wish I wouldn't have sold it. Well ok take your 450 and shut your mouth about *****ing about us *****ing on a thread started for 250's. Go play with your four stroke or bs with the other 450 guys on the 80 million threads about them. Can we please quit cluttering this thread with random bs and put some more dynos or good info on here so that others may benefit. Thanks

05-20-2006, 09:16 AM

the 450s wont dominate as long as the 250r did, if pros still could they woudl be riding 250rs and if honda updated a produced them again, the 450s sales wouldnt be there

MMcCannon

05-20-2006, 11:32 AM

Last I checked, the name of the thread is "250rs forever 450s eat your heart out."
Just by the name alone.....you were trying to start a *****ing war, and its not just a thread for 250's. And anuff about the friggin Sabertooth kit....we get it.....its fast....its got a cool name....it putts out big numbers..... GREAT! But like walsh450rHonda said, you would have to compare that to a 900cc 4 stroke to be anywhere close to being apples to apples, even though they are still nothing alike.
I agree that the 250R is a great machine. It dominated for a long time and should get alot of respect. I am a big 250 fan and always will be. I also know that the 450 is the future and allso needs respect. On my fairly stock 450, I ride side by side with a couple buddies who have fairly modded 250's. I also like ridin the 250s and gettin crazy on them. They are both great machines. And to Honda86...the 450 is about as close to an updated 250 as you will ever see again, and the sales are there!
I just had to say this cus I think this pissing match had drug on way to long. slamdak8782, your invinting everyone and there brother to come to this thread and ***** just by the name you put on it, so don't complain when the obvious happens! If you like it....keep it. Good for you, by the way, your still an idiot! I am leaving now.....I can argue with my own grandpa without using this damn keyboard. Thank you to 450RJam and the few others who had intelligent things to say, no matter which side they favor.

p.s. before I go......please please show me the sabertooth dyno one more time. I didn't get a good look at it the first 4 times you felt the need to put it on here!

MMcCannon

05-20-2006, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
Just look at this - how many 2 stroke ute's do you see? They are all four strokes. That's what four strokes are good for.

One last thing.

Iliketogofast, just when I was starting to think that you were a very intelligent and opened minded person, you had to go and say something completely f***in retarded! Just trying to bring the completely different world of ute's into this is stupid. You had made a couple valid points up till this comment, which is the dumbest thing said so far in this thread....which is really saying something. :eek2: You my friend........are the dumbass.

walsh450rHonda

05-20-2006, 02:35 PM

Honda86 you are wrong about the pros would still use the 250r. I don't know if you read my initial post but pros on 450's are producing the FASTEST LAP TIMES EVER on almost every national track. Do some research befor you open your mouth. You are the problem that this website has, you make blind statements with no FACTS!! If you actually found out this information you would be really disapointed with your own view point. Think befor you speak............do some actual research...........then post real information not opinionated lies. So go find out the fact.

05-20-2006, 03:52 PM

well, then why would they make pros ride quads that are still in production? And i didnt say ALL pros would, but some would go back to the 250R (as many have said) Many pros in interviews said that the 89 250R was the best quad that was ever made, and if honda made an updated aluminum frame 250r with a powervalve motor it would weigh less then the 450s and make the same, if not more HP...

Do you honestly think that if there was an updated aluminum or titamium frame, fuel injection powervalve 250R that people would still buy the 450 over it?? lmao the 450 market would be in the ****ter, people still die for a 86 carb, steel framed 250r and the 450s arnt even that much faster..it funny when people think their 4 strokes are fast

When the 450s came out my buddy with his shee went riding with the honda and yamaha and beat both 450s easily, and the same thing happened when the Z400, 400ex, raptor, DS, and V force came out. People buy into so much hype and with what magazines say or what they read...

The 4 strokes ARE NOT leaps and bounds ahead of 2 strokes like people are thinking now...Many 2 strokes walk right over 4 strokes like its their job

walsh450rHonda

05-21-2006, 10:11 PM

Looks pros give respect to nastalgia. Almost all of the top 10 pros were on 450 hybrids 2 to 3 years befor the 250r was removed from the pro ranks. They knew the 250r was at the end of it road. And yes in some initial inteviews in 2004, some pros said they liked thier 250 better but many of them have changed thier mind in interviews in late 2005 and 2006, as they gained experience on the new 4strokes. For example Travis Spader stated that his lap times on his YFZ 450 were faster than he could ever have done on his 250. Anyways there is no point in debating this matter as I said thier lap times are faster than ever. The numbers don't lie.

Also on the matter of a manfacture produced titanium frame................that will never happen. There are many resons for this but I will give you the main two. Cost of material and cost of production. The frame alone would cost between 7 and 10 thousand to produce. I work with titanium and have first hand knowledge of how difficult it is to produce titanium parts. I have a friend that makes titanium aerospace parts. We designed and did a production cost analysis of a steering stem. To make it economically possible the stem would cost just under 3000 retail. The protypes we made were impressive, 1.3 lbs. Aluminum Frames for atvs don't work well. Now you say cannondale but there is a problem with that. Once again the manufacturing cost is to high as the frame needs strength treatment. Japanese manufactures will not do that.

All things being equally the 450's characteristics are better for track racing.

Four strokes are no hype just better to ride.

05-22-2006, 09:26 AM

u still never touched base on a new updated 250 fuel injection 2 stroke motor, and as far as the aluminum frame, it would work. Cannondale already did it and there is not a problem with them, look at the Z400 that frame sucks... but a new updated EPA friendly 2 stroke 250r would outsell the 450s in a heartbeat! everyone knows it too.

4 strokes still cant compete with many 2 strokes in other areas, such as snowmoblies, the new 2 stroke EPA friendly sleds walk all over the 4 strokes, look at the snocross races. I remmeber yamaha brought out their 4 stroke design and it didnt even make it around the track without problems...

My 87 250R still walks all over the quads that are 20 years newer, and so does the banshee...untill there is something that will seriously take the adrinaline rush away from my banshee and to a 4 stroke, ill buy it...as a matter of fact, i havnt even had to shift into 6th gear when i raced agenst any 4 stroke :cool: :D

I am just wondering where is all the proformance to back up this hype? :confused: i rode the new suzuki 450 bike yesterday and that was a disapointment all around, except the bottom end...it had a yoshi pipe and what not on it and a CR 500 or KX 500 would walk all over that bike...even a nicly built 250 would...

i just want to know when a 4 stroke will be able to back up all the hype that they get from the magazines?? i see it every year and every year my 87's turn them down and down again

450rJam

05-22-2006, 04:14 PM

I rode a 87 250r for 5 years, I now run a 06 450r with hrc.
the 250r was bored,wiseco,jetted,turner race pipe,and k/n
the 450r was spanking it !!!!!!!!!!!
not just a little bit but by 10+ lengths in a 300' drag.
the 250r sat lower and cornered better but thats it.
I said I would never sell it...............guess never came sooner than I thought it would because I traded it off for a 250ex for the wife.
glad I had the chance to ride a piece of history.
and history it is, I regret selling my 67 ss chevelle, my big block firebird, and my chevy mud truck.
no regrets on the 250r.
the 450r did what the 400ex couldnt............replaced the legend

walsh450rHonda

05-23-2006, 05:13 PM

I did talk about the cannondale frame. It cost to much on a production level. Aluminum frames need strength treatment and some parts of the frame need machined parts to achieve the strength levels needed. This all cost to much. Cannondale is out of business for many reasons but the main reason is their parent financial company pulled their investment money. The cannondale continually lost money for all financial companies involved. They lost a few hundred on each model sold. This is all in their SEC reports for stock holders.

Also you are avoiding the facts that lap times on a 4stroke are faster at the pro level. If you notice everything you post is pure opinion. I have given you some facts that refuse to hear. Numbers don't lie.

And last if you fuel inject both 2 stroke and 4 stroke you are back at square one.

Ohhh I guess one more thing for you to chew on. Take a que from the 2 wheel guys. Once again their 4 stroke lap times are much faster than their 2 stroke lap times on the same track. I know you like your 250r and truly hope you enjoy it. Just look at the facts and make educated decisions befor you try to make a point.

05-24-2006, 11:02 AM

lap times on a MX track are faster on a 4 stroke because of where the power comes from, the lower RPMs witch makes them quicker outta the cornors and what not...however if you put the same size motors agenst eachother only have one 2 stroke and one 4 stroke, the 2 stroke is faster EVERYTIME! and i avoid facts? what numbers do you want? in HP numbers 2 strokes out perform 4 strokes all the time

A piped banshee can make 48-50 HP while a piped raptor 660cc motor vs a 350 motor cant produce that HP with just a pipe...

another comparison on a even level playing field would be a LT 500 vs a predator, do you really think the pred is going to make more HP? And that still isnt even fair because of the damn near 20 year difference

There still hasnt been a 4 stroke that can outrun a LT500 yet, and we are aproaching the 20 year mark now...

plus the companys have been taking HUGE amounts of money to
develope 4 strokes to try and make them compete with 2 strokes

The point i am trying to prove is that 4 strokes are not ahead and are not worth the hype (yes that is my opinon and many others as well)...They are not leaps and bounds ahead of the 2 strokes and if they are the same sized motor, the 4 stroke WILL NOT outperform the 2 stroke in 99% of the cases...

walsh450rHonda

05-24-2006, 05:03 PM

You can't compare 2 strokes and 4 strokes cc for cc as I explained befor. Read my first post on this forum. There is a history of racing and competition rules that set the platform for competition between the two technologies. Once again your examples are off base and of no reguard.

The 250 dirtbike motors can produce 45 to 48 hp when fully built. This is at 250cc. A 250r at 250cc would only be able to match that. The hp gap is shrinking fast. Soon there will be none at all. Also the new snomobile motors, twin cylinder and 500cc, are producing close to 100 hp.

slamdak8782

05-24-2006, 06:38 PM

actually it is very easy to compare the two with the same bore limit and if you want to compare a 900cc engine with a bored out 250 that is fine. Once again i am sitting here scratching my
head. The 250r was as close to perfection that we will probably ever see again. The engine was not overly complex and it was lightweight and powerful. Geometry was very good and maintenence was a snap. Now go ahead and compare 900cc engines. Take the point out of my thread and turn it into a circus. Anyways I feel that you guys are mad that you dropped around 7 or 8 grand for a marginal performance gain in stock form. Yet people still contend that a 20year old bike was better. Well fine you are entitled to think what you want but the R was a great machine and comparing the two is apples and oranges. Im sorry I brought it up. I wish I could change the thread name now. If you do compare a 900cc engine two the modded 250r. Try putting that in a frame and see how great that would be. I would laugh at you and go ride my 250r same as what i am now. I still have a smile on my face. Go ahead and hate.:blah:

walsh450rHonda

05-24-2006, 09:59 PM

Hey now you are taking the 900cc comparison out of context. That was in comparison to a saber 500 motor which is note even a 250r. When you put a cr500 cylinder on 250r bottom end it is no longer a 250r. A sabre motor is a drag motor and not for a normal bike. You could easily drop 900cc motor in an atv frame and make a nice drag machine. Now when you are talking 250cc 2 stroke to a 450cc 4 stroke that is a good comparison. Don't get me wrong I think the 250r is a cool atv. I will eventually buy one again. I own almost every sport atv model and have no problem spending the money. I perfer to ride a variety of atv's over just one model. I have ridden and raced a 250r many times. Don't assume which I like better as I choose not to disclose that.

I was just adding some concise thought to the conversation. I was most interested in responding the the idea that pros would be faster on 2 strokes which is just not true. The lap times have proven this. There should be no more debate on that issue. I just think its funny when people state things as fact that are not true. Anyways enjoy what ever you choose to ride.

slamdak8782

05-27-2006, 11:16 AM

well lets see some lap times. I want to see the lap times. is it true or not and also I bet not every 250r time has been beaten.

MMcCannon

05-27-2006, 02:01 PM

Like everyone has already agreed on, the 250R was a great machine. It also ruled for a long time. Give the 450s half that much time, and I doubt there will be any records still held by 250Rs. Not only will the 4 strokes continue to get better, but the market is so flooded with aftermarket parts and the parts are getting better. Also, quad racing has gained so much popularity in the past few years that there are 3x the racers. Quad racing for many is no longer a hobby, its a job. (A kick *** job by the way!) These guys are taking this much more serious as a lifestyle. The pros will tell you that their diet, excersize, hobbies, and everything in their lives is affected by the fact that they are a racer. Its not a weekend sport anymore. Think of how many fully sponsored guys there were 10 years ago compared to know. These are all reasons that lap times are better now on four strokes, but the point remains that the 250R is a great quad, but is the past when it comes to racing.

Comparing these two quads will remain apples to oranges, there will never be an agreement on any of this unless everyone was to just admit that people are entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. I think I am gonna start a new thread just to have people argue. The title will be.........."Creation or evolution?"

MMcCannon

05-27-2006, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by Honda86
...as a matter of fact, i havnt even had to shift into 6th gear when i raced agenst any 4 stroke :cool: :D

Just curious what u have done to ur banshee. I have raced a few pretty heavily modded shees and never gotten beat THAT bad. Either u have geared it thru the roof and hopped it to the max. or your full of s***! The top speeds are comparible even with some gearing changes. I call B.S.!

walsh450rHonda

05-27-2006, 10:28 PM

Hey I just read an article in cycle world about a new Aprilla dirtbike with a 450 twin motor. It will be released soon. The 450 in stock form produces 60 HP while a 550 version produces 70 HP. Those are amazing numbers. Imagine what a fully modded motor would produce. This same motor was in DirtWheel a few months back as speculation in a new atv. I sure hope.

05-28-2006, 08:46 AM

i have have pipes, carbs, pistons, ported, advacedtiming and a cool head, holehot tires, i was running a 16 front tooth sprocket but now went doen to a 15, i am running 20in holeshot tires and i can honestly say that when racing any other 4 stroke quad i had never had to switch into 6th (but sometimes i do just to put them in their place)... the only thing that has beat me so far was a KX 500 and a piped Cr500, and that was be4 i had my banshee ported...by the way, my banshee mods cost less then a stock 450, z400, and thousands less then the cannondales :D buy a nice banshee for 2500 and put 1500-2000 in motor and you will not be disapointed...youll have a 4K banshee that you will smoke basically everything else out there, and still be able to sell it for 2800-3300 and lose a few hundred, while everyone else on slower 450s and 400s will lose thousands in 2-3 years, while the banshee and R are still holding better value in the long run....i love to see people with new 400s, 450s, 650s, and 700s get smoked by cheaper 2 strokes and then on top of that lose thousands upon thousands of dollars (btw the reason i care about the money is because like 95% of the people here, we dont have money growing on trees)

05-28-2006, 08:53 AM

and to walsh450honda, about the 450 twin motor and the 550 motors that are producing 60-70 hp, thats decent for a 4 stroke but when you compare it to a cub banshee or a 400 banshee that can produce around 85-100 HP and is still smaller, its not impressive...also look at the smaller twin 2 stroke sleds, my 94 580 makes 95 HP...no pipes or anything...people really dont understand what 2 stroke can do, many people on this forum dont ride sleds, they just know about the LT250 500, 250r, banshee and tecate witch is all from the mid 80s when they were being developed...if anyone here has rode the new F series sleds they will know what a simple 2 stroke can do....the 600cc snowmoblies are producing 125 HP!!! while the 800s, in stock from are making 140-145...get it piped and a better clutch and you people on here that just run 4 stroke quads will not beleive how fast a 2 stroke sled is!!!

remmeber the R and banshee are 20 years old in design and they STILL can hang fine with 4 strokes and many beat them :D

walsh450rHonda

05-28-2006, 10:42 AM

Honda86r Im glad you like 2 strokes. You must look at application. No one is riding a 100hp quad around a track or at a crosscountry race. I haven't seen a banshee on a motocross track in many years. Banshees were not built for motocrossing. They are a great fun atvs to ride and excell at dragracing. Sure someone can do it but very few do. 4strokes are better for all racing applications except dragracing and flat track. I used to feel the same way you do until I examined the entire picture. HP is not the most important thing just a part of the overall equation. A 60hp 4stroke engine is just a golden number for most racing applications. I have a buddy who has one of the trinity racing 125hp engines. The banshee can only be ridden in a straight line. Many people have had a chance to race a banshee on closed course racing for many many year but few have and that is for a reason. It is what it is don't try to make it out to be what it is not.

walsh450rHonda

05-28-2006, 10:49 AM

2stroke engine design has changed minimally in the last 20 years. Now your going to say the power valve but that is about it. Put your sled motor in your atv and I will race you any day on my 53hp honda 450r. And you know I don't mean dragracing. Your kinda like one of those angry Macintosh guy that is mad because the Mac is actually faster but lacks many of the applications that the PC excells in. What works best is not always the fastest.

05-28-2006, 05:08 PM

that is a whole different topic when ur saying what works best for different situations, and yes that sled motor in a ATV frame would walk all over your 50HP 450r...do you dare to put that 450 agenst a 350 twin?? let alone a 580 twin?? the sled motor would stomp on that 450, and my banshee, and my banshee would walk all over the 450r...

and 2 strokes have changed in the last 20 years, they have changed ALOT in the past 7-10 years alone...look at the marine 2 stroke motors that polute less then 4 strokes!! powervalve motors are much better, 2 strokes rev higher...you cant say a 1986 250r motor is the same as a 2006 CR 250 motor, your losing credability when you say things like that...

yes i know the banshee is not perfect for a MX track but a true skilled rider can ride on anything and be fast...i used to liek to watch MX racig on tv untill the 450s and 250 4 strokes came out, its just not as exciting, riders are lazier on the track because the 4 strokes let them be...as for me, i am not a pro racer and 99% of the people that ride wont be pro either so i just look for the best rush that i can possibly get for the least amount of money and still have it be fairly relieable....thats why i still ride a banshee and 250r

and when i am typing this, i am not angry at all...i always love to debate on good topics like this...i am just curious, how much ddi your 450 cost and whats done to it, what is the total amount of money you have put into it?

with under 2k into my banshee a frined of mine that rides 450s bikes rode my banshee down the road and he even admitted it was crazy fast, he couldnt beleive how quick it is, and he didnt even max it out :D

walsh450rHonda

05-28-2006, 08:19 PM

When you are talking about racing your banshee or your sled motor against my 450r, I told you I was not refering to dragracing, after the first or second turn it would be over for your 2strokes. This is assuming we have the same riding skill. Hell with you sled motor you would get the holeshot and plow right over that first berm, get back on the track and overshoot the next turn. The point is it would be uncontrollable. If you did make a few turns by lap 2 or 3 you would be so tired I would just relax and run a smooth race. This is all hypothetical of course.

As for refering to 2stroke engine design. The design itself is very simple. Granted there have been improvements but not revolutionary. 2Strokes rev higher now but 4strokes have surpassed them by far in that department. Current 450 rev between 11000 and 13000. The new 600cc street bikes have reached over 17000 rpms. This will just continue to get higher.

Sorry to burst your bubble in the watercraft department but the fastest jet ski is a 4stroke, Bombardier RXP which is a 1500cc, 210hp. The second fastest is the yamaha 1300r, 185hp. Engine tuners are getting 350 HP out of the RXP. Not to bad.

Im sure your banshee is fast. I never said the 450's are faster than a built banshee. Like I've said I have ridden a 125HP banshee, in a straigt line.

As for your money comparison you are specifically talking about just motor work. What about suspension, chassis, controls. I don't ride stock bikes they are no fun. Just doing the suspension alone on your banshee would cost about 2k. Then you need wider aarms, swingarm, steering stem, ....................the list goes on and on. You will spend the same amount of money on chasis and suspension that I will. 2k into a 4stroke motor is more than enough. I wouldn't even ride a banshee until it has a full walsh set up on it something that works as well. As for how much do I have into my 450r well............I have everything that Walsh makes, a pro level motor, sweet graphics, some custom made titanium parts, and Elka's best shock all around. The first set of bumps we would hit you would sure feel them on your banshee, I on the other hand would barely know they are there. Well just for kick what do you have done to your banshee besides the motor.

I do alot of hill dragracing at the sand dunes and I have beat many a banshee. Piped head mods............Now the big bore alcohol buning monster................well they are a drag bike and of course they are faster. I have also beat alot of 250r some even with 330's. Now being reasonable............there many pure drag bikes that kill many 4 strokes. Like I said I have a buddy with a 125HP banshee which is fun to drag. I have ran into a guy with an R1 in a raptor frame an I watched him eat every banshee on a holiday weekend at florence. He destroyed my buddies banshee, it wasn't even close. But...........Its all in good fun.

Im glad your not angry.......................your tone comes across like that some times though..............

MMcCannon

05-28-2006, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by Honda86
(btw the reason i care about the money is because like 95% of the people here, we dont have money growing on trees)

Hey, if you find someone who has a tree, let me know cus i'm robbin there a**! I agree that it all comes down to application. When I bought my 450, I also looked into buyin a 2 stroke. I had ridden a few and loved the thrill. I decided to get something that was a better all around machine. The 4 strokes are just alot better well rounded quad for trails, racing, or anything else. Hey, 2 strokes are a blast, i won't argue there. And with some work, they can be retarded fast. Its just all personal preference. With a close to stock 450, i hang with almost everyone i ride with wherever we ride and however we ride. Thats more than my buddies with hopped up banshees can say. But if you like what you have and it works for you, than congratulations. Thats what counts.

05-29-2006, 10:03 AM

walsh450rhonda, you have basically a whole walsh 450 then? i couldnt imagine how much money has been throw away in that thing, and i agree about racing on a MX track with a sled motor to and extent, however it wouldnt be as bad as you might think....look at the sno-cross races, i enjoy watching them over any MX quad or bike race....

my banshee does not have suspension mods, but i do have a LSR extended axle, and pro peg nerfs, the parts i can justify spending my hard earned cash for....i could not spend a few hundred on a steering stem when it is going to only be raised a inch or 2....and i cant buy a set of 500-800 dollar extended A arms or set of thousand dollar or 1500 dollar elka shocks when they wont do much for me (i dont seriously race) now i told you what i have on my banshee besides motor work, seriosuly take the time and add up how much you have into your 450r...everything that you have done, from graphics to sprockets...i am curious

and 1 comment that i didnt care for was when you said you dont ride stock bikes, they are not fun and when you said you wouldnt ride a banshee untill it had a full walsh set up...im sorry to say and i dont want to sterio type but people like you that are so stuck up into your fully aftermarket quad say that others are not fun, thats just stupid...do you even truly love the sport? because if you did you could go out on a stock banshee, 400ex or even a freakin Lt230 and have a blast...some of my funnest times riding were on my stock blaster out in the woods with my buddies...i also had tons of fun on an all stock kawaski 160 three wheeler...those were the most fun...IMO the sport is always more fun when you feel the bumps and have to work the clutch in the woods and in and out of cornors...you feel more of the rush and thats what its all about...its not about investing 10 thousand dollars into your quad to make it a few seconds faster around the track and its sad because thats what the sport is coming to..

I will admit i dont make or have nearly enough money it go out and spend thousands of dollars into a suspension set up for my banshee, im sure your PURE WALSH 450 is smooth and im glad you enjoy it...

and 4 strokes have not by far surpassed 2 strokes in the rev department, many 2 strokes rev within hundreds with the 4 strokes...many 125s rev out to 12 thousand and some into 13s...as for the crotch rocket motors, thats a whole different story

The main point that i was trying to make is that for the money spent you wont get a better adrinaline rush then the banshee...thats what it is known for..and for those who say it cant be ridden in trails just dont know how to ride...i guess thats just the way it is now with people learning how to use a clutch on a 4 stroke...

I remember learning how to use a clutch on a Cr80 that was stupid fast when i had to put 1 theigh on the seat just so i could reach on my tippy toes...going through mud puddles, sliding out...feeling the bumps that i went over and screming across the feilds, riding thru whatever was infront of me (or atleast tried) not caring if i scratched the plastic or torn the graphics..those were the times that i loved most...and i think its sad because now people WONT EVEN RIDE A STOCK BANSHEE!, i remember when i got my blaster every kid around wanted to ride it...ther ewas nothing and i mean nothing great about that blaster...it was a 1990 all stock (besides holeshot tires in the rear) blaster....we had so much fun on it...riding it in the rain...those were the funnest times...thats why it just makes my stomache turn when people like you with your pure walsh 450 and the yfz450s and now the LTR 450 racers are bought for 7 thousands dollars and some of those riders cant even work a banshee in the woods, it just stupid....

but im glad you enjoy you 5 didget walsh 450 and i hope you break your lap times by atleast 1/2 seconds next time you go out on the track

R3Concepts

05-29-2006, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by walsh450rHonda
When you are talking about racing your banshee or your sled motor against my 450r, I told you I was not refering to dragracing, after the first or second turn it would be over for your 2strokes. This is assuming we have the same riding skill. Hell with you sled motor you would get the holeshot and plow right over that first berm, get back on the track and overshoot the next turn. The point is it would be uncontrollable. If you did make a few turns by lap 2 or 3 you would be so tired I would just relax and run a smooth race. This is all hypothetical of course.

As for refering to 2stroke engine design. The design itself is very simple. Granted there have been improvements but not revolutionary. 2Strokes rev higher now but 4strokes have surpassed them by far in that department. Current 450 rev between 11000 and 13000. The new 600cc street bikes have reached over 17000 rpms. This will just continue to get higher.

Sorry to burst your bubble in the watercraft department but the fastest jet ski is a 4stroke, Bombardier RXP which is a 1500cc, 210hp. The second fastest is the yamaha 1300r, 185hp. Engine tuners are getting 350 HP out of the RXP. Not to bad.

Im sure your banshee is fast. I never said the 450's are faster than a built banshee. Like I've said I have ridden a 125HP banshee, in a straigt line.

As for your money comparison you are specifically talking about just motor work. What about suspension, chassis, controls. I don't ride stock bikes they are no fun. Just doing the suspension alone on your banshee would cost about 2k. Then you need wider aarms, swingarm, steering stem, ....................the list goes on and on. You will spend the same amount of money on chasis and suspension that I will. 2k into a 4stroke motor is more than enough. I wouldn't even ride a banshee until it has a full walsh set up on it something that works as well. As for how much do I have into my 450r well............I have everything that Walsh makes, a pro level motor, sweet graphics, some custom made titanium parts, and Elka's best shock all around. The first set of bumps we would hit you would sure feel them on your banshee, I on the other hand would barely know they are there. Well just for kick what do you have done to your banshee besides the motor.

I do alot of hill dragracing at the sand dunes and I have beat many a banshee. Piped head mods............Now the big bore alcohol buning monster................well they are a drag bike and of course they are faster. I have also beat alot of 250r some even with 330's. Now being reasonable............there many pure drag bikes that kill many 4 strokes. Like I said I have a buddy with a 125HP banshee which is fun to drag. I have ran into a guy with an R1 in a raptor frame an I watched him eat every banshee on a holiday weekend at florence. He destroyed my buddies banshee, it wasn't even close. But...........Its all in good fun.

Im glad your not angry.......................your tone comes across like that some times though..............

Your cocky. Who built this 53HP TRX? Dyno graphs to back up your claims? Build specs? Fuel?

Walsh-overrated
Elka- worst out of the box shocks you can buy

Always remember the internet sure makes everyone look big, and sound like they know things, but when someone comes along and wants to see if you really know what your talking about, and will clown on you if you dont, its better not to get yourself into that predicament in the first place.

86350x

05-29-2006, 10:30 PM

Well I'll offer, the weekend warrior/trail rider point of view. Our 250r was fun to ride, but was way down on power imo stock.

A stock 450 should beat a stock 250r, and with the butt plugg and air box removed banshee. Even lightly modified banshee's.

From what I have seen a 250r with bolt ons is just under 30 hp, and an unrestricted 450 is 35-37 hp. This is rear wheel hp too, not all of these fantasy #'s.

Now after putting a 302 cylinder on the 250r, cool head, air stryker carb, fmf exhaust. It was pretty fast and had good power everywhere but the frame would crack all over the place.

I still own a banshee that would beat that, and does beat 450's with full exhausts, air box deletes, high compression pistons ect. But, it doesn't obliterate them. To even do that, it has an mx tt port job, pipes, silencers, 34mm flat slide carbs, 2 into 1 intake, no air box, and other stuff I won't even talk about. But it's more tiring to ride then a new 450 is. It has great midrange and topend, but I don't think I have ever seen a banshee with bottom power and a smooth wide spread like the new thumpers do.

The beauty about these new machines is that you don't have to do all of these heavy modifications to get power out of them. You just add the exhaust of your choice, rejet it, personalize your ergo's and suspension settings. And its pretty much ready for whatever you want. And not having to worry about mixing gas is a huge pluss. Thats why when I bought a new dirt bike, I didn't get another cr, I bought a 426, and have absolutley no regretts.

MMcCannon

05-30-2006, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by 86350x
Well I'll offer, the weekend warrior/trail rider point of view. Our 250r was fun to ride, but was way down on power imo stock.

A stock 450 should beat a stock 250r, and with the butt plugg and air box removed banshee. Even lightly modified banshee's.

From what I have seen a 250r with bolt ons is just under 30 hp, and an unrestricted 450 is 35-37 hp. This is rear wheel hp too, not all of these fantasy #'s.

Now after putting a 302 cylinder on the 250r, cool head, air stryker carb, fmf exhaust. It was pretty fast and had good power everywhere but the frame would crack all over the place.

I still own a banshee that would beat that, and does beat 450's with full exhausts, air box deletes, high compression pistons ect. But, it doesn't obliterate them. To even do that, it has an mx tt port job, pipes, silencers, 34mm flat slide carbs, 2 into 1 intake, no air box, and other stuff I won't even talk about. But it's more tiring to ride then a new 450 is. It has great midrange and topend, but I don't think I have ever seen a banshee with bottom power and a smooth wide spread like the new thumpers do.

The beauty about these new machines is that you don't have to do all of these heavy modifications to get power out of them. You just add the exhaust of your choice, rejet it, personalize your ergo's and suspension settings. And its pretty much ready for whatever you want. And not having to worry about mixing gas is a huge pluss. Thats why when I bought a new dirt bike, I didn't get another cr, I bought a 426, and have absolutley no regretts.

Well said, and I'm sure that you will continue to love ur 426, they're great bikes! Kind of a b**** to start though. lol. Honda86, you said yourself that the new 4 strokes are allowing riders to get lazy. Some people like that, I for one like to be able to ride all day through whatever and still have the energy to be able to stand around and talk about it with my buddies at the end of the day. Also, if the pros can be "lazy" and still run as fast if not faster than they did back in the day on 2 strokes, than that not supporting your claims that the 2 strokes are better machines now is it. Just an observation. I still like both, but believe the 4 strokes are better all around machines.

walsh450rHonda

05-30-2006, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by R3Concepts
Your cocky. Who built this 53HP TRX? Dyno graphs to back up your claims? Build specs? Fuel?

Walsh-overrated
Elka- worst out of the box shocks you can buy

Always remember the internet sure makes everyone look big, and sound like they know things, but when someone comes along and wants to see if you really know what your talking about, and will clown on you if you dont, its better not to get yourself into that predicament in the first place.

R3Concepts I don't have to prove anything to you!!! I have seen many of your posts on this site in the past. I do not agree with your style of badgering other people and have no reguard for your opinion!!

R3Concepts

05-30-2006, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by walsh450rHonda
R3Concepts I don't have to prove anything to you!!! I have seen many of your posts on this site in the past. I do not agree with your style of badgering other people and have no reguard for your opinion!!

Please copy and paste where I badger others. Or is it that so many other out there, like yourself, dont have anything to back up what they say? :huh Done preaching yet?

Still waiting on your build specs and graphs.

walsh450rHonda

05-30-2006, 07:44 PM

Honda86R don't get me wrong I have paid my dues in the past. I have been riding since I was 3 years old. I have ridden nearly every stock piece of crap ever made. I started out on a pw50. When I was 5 I got an ATC70, which had no suspension. I went through some xr's and then a YAMAHA IT 125, then, some cr's, a YZ 250. I loved all of it. Also I have not always had money to spend to modify my bike. I rode stock bikes for 20 years. I put myself through college and have worked many 60 to 70 hr weeks just to get where I am. Now that I actually have some money to spend on my atv's it is kinda nice. All those years I never knew how precious getting a good suspension was. I must admit now it would be hard to go back to an atv with stock shocks. I recently bought my wife a Raptor 700r. I took it out last weekend trail riding it was fun. I am going to order some front shocks for it though. Of course it is my wife's atv but I bought it for me. Don't tell her that though. Also Im a woods thumper first and a track rider a distant second. There is an article in the new Sand Sport with a 534 HP banshee............................but it has a Hyabusa motor in it. I thought you would like that. Also they talk about the 250r engine design being 20 years ahead of its time. They said those honda guys were genius. Interesting stuff.

walsh450rHonda

05-30-2006, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by R3Concepts
Please copy and paste where I badger others. Or is it that so many other out there, like yourself, dont have anything to back up what they say? :huh Done preaching yet?

Still waiting on your build specs and graphs.

I have no interest in starting a pissing match with you. I don't know you or care about your opinion. If you wanted to discuss something with me you need to try a much more friendly approach. I have all the things you would like to see to make you feel better but I have no need to let you see them. I am moving to Tucon Arizona in a couple of months and i was going to check out your shop or place of business what ever that may be. But it looks like your not interested in my business. You need to be careful the way your attitude come across as you never know how it is going to affect you in the future.

walsh450rHonda

05-30-2006, 08:01 PM

Your opinion on Elka shocks is wrong. All my buddies have Axis and were very dissapointed after riding my Elka's. One of them has since sold his Axis and bought Elka's and is much happier. But of course we all know it is personal preference.

05-30-2006, 09:01 PM

walsh 450, you still said that stock machines are no fun and i will admit that si what pissed me off more then anything i think i have read on this board, and yes the 4 strokes are making riders lazier with the clutch work in and out of cornors and what not...like a kid i know rides 4 strokes and u put him on a banshee and he cant even ride in the woods...i think riders are running faster lap times but are not better (overall and averages) riders...very very few riders can ride a quad, dirt bike, 3 wheeler and snowmoblies to their potential.... and of those few that can ride all of those well, 90% of them are not below the age of 25...

if i was a pro racer or whatever, i dont know what i would ride, but i guess i dont ahve a choice now becaue it would have to be a 450 since Rs arnt allowed anymore, witch is pure BS if u ask me....

as for the suspension, i dont care to spend my money on things like that...

I am also waiting to see this 53 HP 450r...and like was said be4, if a 2 stroke and 4 stroke have same size engine it isnt even close...a 450 banshee or 420r would just kill a LTR 450R or YFZ

and in one of your last posts you said you rode nearly every stock peice of crap made, thats just stupid to say...nothing out there is a TRUE peice of crap! NOTHING! even those little off brand 125cc quads for the little kids are great! a stock blaster is wonderful...i would love to own a stock LT500 or a tecate, those are the best...you have just turned into some freak that dont buy something if it dont have "WALSH" stamped on it...maybe you need to remember where u came from and what u rode in the past before you go and call everyone elses machines on thise forum crap because they are not a PURE WALSH product....seriosuly do it....to all those kids that just saved up their money from 3 summers working to buy that stock banshee or warrior or 300ex whatever it is...post what u post on this thread and see what kind of respect u get, because in my book, you basically have none...

oh and BTW if i ever did meet u somewhere in the dunes or something, you would only be eating the sand cominig right off my paddle tires that are on what? A STOCK SUSPENSION PEICE OF CRAP 20 YEAR OLD BANSHEE

05-30-2006, 09:05 PM

and another thing, those honda guys were not genious' they just built something right... a light weight 2 stroke 250, SIMPLE...there is nothing complitcated about the 250R...NOTHING!! nothing has to be...it was not 20 year ahead of its time, the suzuki competed with it for a long time, was the suzuki LT250 10 years ahead of its time? NOPE

If honda built a simple 250R today it would dominate...i dont think anyone could debate with that

walsh450rHonda

05-30-2006, 09:13 PM

I didn't mean all bikes but a walsh are pieces of crap. I meant the actual bikes I was riding were pieces crap. Like as beat. Broken spokes, hard to start, broken fenders, bent handle bars, broken clutch levers, bent rims, engine blowing smoke, like a cloud. I worked every summer since I was 12 to by these junkes so I can ride. I never even had a new bike until a couple of years ago. I do enjoy the way my honda rides but I also have respect for all the pieces that came befor it.

walsh450rHonda

05-30-2006, 09:15 PM

As for it being 20 years ahead of its time.........I was refrencing to what the owner of CT Racing was stating in an interview. He is considered an expert. Is he wrong?

walsh450rHonda

05-30-2006, 09:17 PM

I never said everyone elses atv's were crap. I choose to ride my walsh atv but have not disreguard for what anyone else rides. I worked hard for my stuff and have no regets.

walsh450rHonda

05-30-2006, 09:28 PM

I don't buy products because they are Walsh. I just happen to have a good connection with them and get great deals on their parts. I deal with Mike and Nate Walsh alot and have lots of respect for the product that they make. They put alot more work into what they do than most other fabricators that I know.

R3Concepts

05-30-2006, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by walsh450rHonda
I have no interest in starting a pissing match with you. I don't know you or care about your opinion. If you wanted to discuss something with me you need to try a much more friendly approach. I have all the things you would like to see to make you feel better but I have no need to let you see them. I am moving to Tucon Arizona in a couple of months and i was going to check out your shop or place of business what ever that may be. But it looks like your not interested in my business. You need to be careful the way your attitude come across as you never know how it is going to affect you in the future.

First off think about what you just said to me and then go back and re-read you post. I stated the obvious for you to think about. Move to Tucson, come buy. Check out all our bikes, hell race us if you want.:D

You care about my opinion as much as I care about your business. And we dont carry Walsh or will we, so you are way above our customer basis anyways. Besides you got a full Walsh bike, we cant be of service to you, but we can show you what Lonestar bikes do.:D I kid, no hard feelings guy. Carry on.

walsh450rHonda

05-30-2006, 10:19 PM

Man I think we killed this thread. We are about 3 miles off topic.

MMcCannon

05-31-2006, 03:22 PM

2.79423niner8501 miles off topic actually. The bad part is that all though its a good discusion basis ( 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke), it will probably never be a peacefull one. Atleast it shows that everyone is proud of what they have and what they believe.

p.s. I still know my 450 is faster than ANY 2 stroke.:macho :D :devil: and thats a fact!!!

LOL, just kidding boys, prolly the slowest one here.

05-31-2006, 05:18 PM

if anyone seriously get pissed off or offended then they shouldnt read this thread, there is nothing but good healthy conversation in here so it shouldnt get locked...

now..the honda was not 20 years ahead of its time, thats just stupid to say that..it was ONE of a kind, but not ahead of its time...

as for the 2 stroke vs 4 stroke battle, both are fast and with both the same sized engines the 2 stroke does win, no one can really debate with that...now at my local MX bike track in the 250 class there is probaly about 22 or so 450s out of the 25 or so bikes...now there is only a couple pingers screaming out there witch is just a shame...they drop the gates and time after time the YZ 250 takes the holeshot, or is in the top 3 after the first or 2nd cornor...this guy wins time and time again, on a YZ 250...my point is that just because you own a 450 it dont make you fast, there still is some rider ability that plays into it...but the average joe can be faster on a 4 stroke, but a good rider is faster on a 2 stroke, and the pros are so good it an go either way... it is harder to ride a 2 stroke...like i said i dont think there are THAT MANY true riders out there, now i ride everything i can and i have sleds, wave runner, quads, and bikes and used to own trikes (looking for a nice ATC 250r btw) and i am best on sleds and quads, i would say, bikes i have and i buzz around on those from time to time but i am not a pure racer but i would calll myself a decent rider...most people cant ride all the things that i enjoy to do...the 4 strokes are making people lazy...i enjoy being dead after trying to hold onto that banshee after riding, feeling the bumps and hydroplating over water, thats what its all about...alot of us (including me) has lost that at sometime or another

the 450 quads are not what they are made out to be, they are not THAT fast...and a R handles better then any of them...banshee is faster then any of them when you talk MOD Vs MOD...and suspension is all aftermarket...there is nothing mind blowing about the 450s...i just wish everyone would realize that...

i would line up a old CR 500 agenst a new 450 anyday...or even a Lt500 agenst a 700 raptor...

a nice 250R that costs the same as a 450 is alot better ride for your money and is a ledgend, not the new kid on the block

i just look for the ledgends in things, gordie howe is a more complete hockey player then sidney crosby, aerosmith is better then green day, 2pac is better then 50 cent...i dont buy into those 1 hit wonders or those fads, if the 450s dominate as long as the R did, then maybe ill buy one, untill then, ill be screaming along on my 2 stroke

walsh450rHonda

05-31-2006, 07:37 PM

niner..........niner...........anyone there

walsh450rHonda

05-31-2006, 07:43 PM

Just to let you know no one has ever tried to say 4strokes are equal to 2 strokes cc for cc. This is about a 250cc 2stroke against a 450cc 4stroke. You keep trying to make the point of 250 against 250 which is just stupid. No form of competition has ever pitted the two technologies against each other cc for cc. It is always aproximately a 2 to 1 ratio. Get that in your thick skull. Your points are null and void. Ignorance is bliss....................

walsh450rHonda

05-31-2006, 07:46 PM

niner............niner...................anyone... ..............niner............niner..............

cannondalefreak

05-31-2006, 08:11 PM

That saber motor is sweet! You guys are crazy!

MMcCannon

06-01-2006, 06:38 AM

Ya I'm here, come on back. I'm headed down highway 95 at mile marker.....sorry, got sidetracked. lol. I wouldn't say that the 250R handles better than anything out today, many of the pro riders have said the new 450 handles better than anything they have EVER rode. Unfortunately, they are talkin about the suzuki 450:( Also, an lt500 would stomp a mudhole in a 700 raptor any day of the week! Quadzillas are the S***! I know there is nothing midblowing about the 450's, but they ARE a great machine. As were the 250's.

06-01-2006, 08:48 PM

the reason they are giving 4 strokes the bigger motor advantages was mainly because a 2 stroke came complete the cycle twice as fast but that dont justify give the 4 stroke more CCs...now that the 4 strokes have come along so much i think they should make the real classes....the only reason you think i have a thick skull is because you just go with what everyone says and how things have been in the past so you dont question it...think outside the box...there is nothing wrong with a fair fight

walsh450rHonda

06-01-2006, 09:03 PM

Your opinion has been noted. I do not go with everyone elses opinion I actually think about the technological differences and the many reasons why the situation is what it is. Perhaps the cc differences could be decreased somewhat but it will never be cc for cc. Back in the 90's they used to allow over 500cc four strokes and then that was reduced to 440. It was raised in 05' to 450. 2strokes are at 265 which could be raised by a few cc's. In 03' and 04' Mark Baldwin and a few others petitioned for 330cc 2strokes but were turned down. This was at a time when the cannondale was released and they could hear that 4 stroke up their *ss.

06-03-2006, 08:30 AM

but the bottomline is that they are trying to promote the 4 strokes and make people beleive that they are something great and they are ok but nothing wonderful they are a pain to start (most of the time) and they just want everyone converted over to them...thats why they are making waverunners and snowmoblies with superchargers and turbos now so they can try and keep up with a powervalve 2 stroke...my F7 would outrun those new turbo sleds

86350x

06-13-2006, 12:47 AM

A few things need commenting on here. Quadzilla's are big old tug boats. They are not that fast stock, a bolt on buggy banshee will honestly beat one in a drag race. If you find a good builder, you can make them pretty fast, but still not as fast as an internally modified banshee. A zilla owner thats honest will tell you the same thing. And they things have alot of issues without an aftermarket head, and air box fix. And the cheapo aluminum that came from the factory can rear its ugly head at any time.

I'd like to see a race between a true stock zilla and an unrestricted 450...........................

Your f7 certainly would not run with a supercharged or turbo charged thumper like an rx1. Nothing will, and nothing will hold together like one of those do making that kind of hp. I can make stock displacement f7's and zr900's look silly on my litely modified srx700 mod slead. And a turbo charged rx1 will smoke me.

The new machines are better in pretty much everyway then the old stuff was. Take one for a spin and see for yourself.

I think that modern 2 strokes could be built just as well as the new thumpers, becausee it would get the new chassis and suspension. And they could pass all of the emissoins. Honda's 400cc exp was a prime example of it. An oil injected newer heavy duty 2 smoke would be nice to see, but you won't see it. The new thumpers rock, I'd rather just gas and go. No checking 2 cycle oil, no worry's about mixing the proper amount(when in the middle of no where looking for gas). Do your regular maintenece,enjoy a super wide powerband, and have fun with less worries.

06-13-2006, 03:52 PM

i wasnt talking about the Rx1 turbo, i was talking about the 660cc turbo (almost the same as my F7)...and yes they could build a ew 2 stroke to not just compete, but win as well

zillas can run pretty well, they are right there with a banshee, and 450s, i would say the zilla stock for stock would outrun the 450s...but if ur running it agenst an unrestricted 450, then u have to do the same tot he banshee and Rs and zillas...thats just being fair, and we all know a piped and tuned banshee can make 46-50 HP or more with the 100cc more 4 strokes are marking around 42-44...

but the bottom line is that weight for power ratio, a 2 stroke motor is the way to go...and they last alot longer then peple think when u just do basic maintainence...and they sound wayyy cooler :D

XANDADA

06-22-2006, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by slamdak8782
Some cool dynos from planet sand

265r with 38tmx

hey that's my quad, don't remember posting it there!

iamjasyn

06-27-2006, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by 135boom
.................kind of like every old fart on here with his old school 250 cant get over the fact that there machines are going on "ancient" and that new better things are out!
ha ha ha.

It cracks me up, some of what has been said on here. YES, absolutely, the 250r has to be given respect. HOWEVER, the power that those things put out is really not that spectacular anymore. STOCK 450's are putting out 40 horse. Pipe, intake, jetting, cammod your just shy of 50. Do high comp piston and you are there or slightly over. My setup right now on a yfz 439 is a WB carbon pro II, fuel customs intake, yz needle and proper jetting, cammod with crower intake cam, and gytr high comp piston 13.1 and am running in the mid 50's. There are plenty of guys out there running stock bore 439's that are almost pushing 60 horse. Also, that power that I am putting out is broad and across the board. The 250's is either on or off.
I'll give respect to the 'ol 250's for being awesome handlers on the track, but power wise, they have been more than beat!
CURRENT 250cc motors are putting out about 45 horse stock and thats on dirtbikes. CURRENT 450 motors are making about 50 stock on the dirt bikes.
If you want to go all insane with big bores, thats fine, Im sure you can make some good power. I'll be the one driving by laughing though when your motor pops!

You know... I didn't read this whole thread, but I got this far and signed up just to post a reply.

The 450 4stroke is fast. But a 450 2stroke would make an absolute joke of it - even without a simple little mechanism known as a powervalve - which by the way would be in a modern TRX 250R, to address your oh so embarassingly low hp concerns of the 80's!... You 450 riders are having fun being proud of your new quads and that's great! You have fun. But I blow off piped 450's with a ported 270 on the sand hills with no problem and I have at least 130 less CC's!!!!

Ok, here is the thing that makes me puke about your trendy 4stroke pride. You're riding an EPA derived motor, engineered$$ to replace the 2stroke at MUCH cost to manufacturers to do it. Here's a small amount of history too. Yamaha and Suzuki back in the early 70's started kicking Honda's *** with 2stroke technology, forcing honda to build the Elsinore 2stroke which later became the CR (notice this solution contained no F in the name). Today, the EPA says, no 2stokes on the street, and no 2strokes off the street. You're Honda, etc., you want to sell motors = you build a Nascar like 4stroke. At the high level, it's a simple equation.

The point rudely put? You're riding EPA slave work arounds, marketed like they're something new! My god what a joke. By the way do you know how much funding marketing and advertising gets?? With all that money pouring into em, you bet they're the future! ...But they're not my future.

Again though, you have fun on em! They're great fun I suppose. But if they were so great for their intended purpose (racing/"R").... Do tell us ALL why, enlightened ones why a 4stroke 450"r" needs more cc's to match the power of the mechanically simple two stroke. Why? Because they're mechanically, fundamentally different. A 2stroke, in this case produces a 250cc power stroke EVERY revolution of the crank.

Get on an XR and enjoy what 4 strokes are great at. Producing reliable, even power that will last for years. Subtract the EPA and the rest of us are screaming on, cheaper and easier to manufactuer AND work on 2strokes. It's not a matter of opinion friends. These 4strokes are a workaround to environmental concerns and your perceptions about them are moved by big dollars, and to me every extra cc more in the same class than a 2stroke points that fact out quite clearly.

If you're going to be a EPA/manufacturer slave, for the sake of our nerves at least realize it.

iamjasyn

06-27-2006, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by FHKracingZ
4 strokes are very complicated... 2 stroke motor working can be done by almost anybody.. But 4 stroke motor working cant

I think only you and god could know how you came to the conclusion that this is a good thing.

Iliketogofast

06-27-2006, 09:07 PM

I love it when a part breaks inside the motor and I don't know what it was! I loooove it! That's my favorite part about four stroke motors!

Iliketogofast

06-27-2006, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by MMcCannon
One last thing.

Iliketogofast, just when I was starting to think that you were a very intelligent and opened minded person, you had to go and say something completely f***in retarded! Just trying to bring the completely different world of ute's into this is stupid. You had made a couple valid points up till this comment, which is the dumbest thing said so far in this thread....which is really saying something. :eek2: You my friend........are the dumbass.

Hey, I'm not a dumbass. That was a compliment! And it's the best one I could think of, too... I can't really think about anything else they are good for. Wait! Lawnmowers!

MMcCannon

07-03-2006, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by iamjasyn
You know... I didn't read this whole thread, but I got this far and signed up just to post a reply.

The 450 4stroke is fast. But a 450 2stroke would make an absolute joke of it - even without a simple little mechanism known as a powervalve - which by the way would be in a modern TRX 250R, to address your oh so embarassingly low hp concerns of the 80's!... You 450 riders are having fun being proud of your new quads and that's great! You have fun. But I blow off piped 450's with a ported 270 on the sand hills with no problem and I have at least 130 less CC's!!!!

Ok, here is the thing that makes me puke about your trendy 4stroke pride. You're riding an EPA derived motor, engineered$$ to replace the 2stroke at MUCH cost to manufacturers to do it. Here's a small amount of history too. Yamaha and Suzuki back in the early 70's started kicking Honda's *** with 2stroke technology, forcing honda to build the Elsinore 2stroke which later became the CR (notice this solution contained no F in the name). Today, the EPA says, no 2stokes on the street, and no 2strokes off the street. You're Honda, etc., you want to sell motors = you build a Nascar like 4stroke. At the high level, it's a simple equation.

The point rudely put? You're riding EPA slave work arounds, marketed like they're something new! My god what a joke. By the way do you know how much funding marketing and advertising gets?? With all that money pouring into em, you bet they're the future! ...But they're not my future.

Again though, you have fun on em! They're great fun I suppose. But if they were so great for their intended purpose (racing/"R").... Do tell us ALL why, enlightened ones why a 4stroke 450"r" needs more cc's to match the power of the mechanically simple two stroke. Why? Because they're mechanically, fundamentally different. A 2stroke, in this case produces a 250cc power stroke EVERY revolution of the crank.

Get on an XR and enjoy what 4 strokes are great at. Producing reliable, even power that will last for years. Subtract the EPA and the rest of us are screaming on, cheaper and easier to manufactuer AND work on 2strokes. It's not a matter of opinion friends. These 4strokes are a workaround to environmental concerns and your perceptions about them are moved by big dollars, and to me every extra cc more in the same class than a 2stroke points that fact out quite clearly.

If you're going to be a EPA/manufacturer slave, for the sake of our nerves at least realize it.

EPA slaves huh??? You do realize I hope that your grand speal above describes 90% of all vehicles on the road today. Cars, trucks, and even Iliketogofast's lawnmower have all been altered drastically over the past years to protect that little thing called the environment. SO, by owning something that has been redesigned and developed to satisfy the EPA makes 4stroke owners all slaves, then I would hope your not to naive to realize that you urself are a slave. Everyone is, even everyday household items have been changed to satisfy the EPA. I hope by now you see that your point in mute, and that you and everyone else fall under you def. of "slaves." So get busy Toby, and stop by a math class when you get done in the fields...450 - 270 = 180, retard.

MMcCannon

07-03-2006, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
Hey, I'm not a dumbass. That was a compliment! And it's the best one I could think of, too... I can't really think about anything else they are good for. Wait! Lawnmowers!

Lawnmowers, and setting track records which we have already discussed. But sorry, I can't spend anymore time here today, I've gotta get my slave a** to the fields. :(

Iliketogofast

07-03-2006, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by MMcCannon
Lawnmowers, and setting track records which we have already discussed. But sorry, I can't spend anymore time here today, I've gotta get my slave a** to the fields. :(

My weedeater will beat your lawnmower any day.

MMcCannon

07-03-2006, 10:30 AM

Ya, well my lawnmower is piped and jetted, and bored .30 over.

Oh ya....I bet my dad can beat up your dad! LOL. :macho

Weedeaters are the s***, your right...I don't want any.

MMcCannon

07-03-2006, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by MMcCannon
Ya, well my lawnmower is piped and jetted, and bored .30 over.

Oh ya....I bet my dad can beat up your dad! LOL. :macho

Weedeaters are the s***, your right...I don't want any.

For anyone that is a little slow....I am joking about the hooked up lawnmower.:ermm:

Iliketogofast

07-03-2006, 10:52 AM

My lawnmower is a 450 hybrid!!

iamjasyn

07-03-2006, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by MMcCannon
EPA slaves huh??? You do realize I hope that your grand speal above describes 90% of all vehicles on the road today. Cars, trucks, and even Iliketogofast's lawnmower have all been altered drastically over the past years to protect that little thing called the environment. SO, by owning something that has been redesigned and developed to satisfy the EPA makes 4stroke owners all slaves, then I would hope your not to naive to realize that you urself are a slave. Everyone is, even everyday household items have been changed to satisfy the EPA. I hope by now you see that your point in mute, and that you and everyone else fall under you def. of "slaves." So get busy Toby, and stop by a math class when you get done in the fields...450 - 270 = 180, retard.

You're right. And now that 90% is extending it's way into offroad vehicles. I'm not arguing with that, you ineffectual. I'm also not arguing with the deisre to protect the environment. I'm arguing with how you think that a 4stroke is a faster motor than a 2stroke. I'm arguing with the fact that you don't seem to realize that you're not riding the motor you would be if it weren't for these new laws - so choke on a timing chain fu**er. So without a counter point that addresses my point, it's your point that is moot. Crack open a dictionary too while you're on your high horse. Oh and you're right again. I'm kicking 450's asses at 180 less cc's. You're 100% right. Thanks for helping my point along further.

Iliketogofast

07-03-2006, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by iamjasyn
- so choke on a timing chain fu**er.

Lol... And stick a valve up your ***!

ESR250R

07-03-2006, 04:26 PM

- so choke on a timing chain fu**er.

HAHAHA thats great.

GPracer2500

07-03-2006, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by walsh450rHonda
...No form of competition has ever pitted the two technologies against each other cc for cc. It is always aproximately a 2 to 1 ratio. Get that in your thick skull. Your points are null and void. Ignorance is bliss....................

That isn't completely accurate. Once upon a time in motorcycle Grand Prix roadracing the displacement limit was absolute--it didn't matter how many strokes you had. Honda bent over backwards to build a 500cc four stroke that could compete with 500cc two strokes. It took them ten years to figure out how to do it while remaining within the rest of the rulebook. They were forced to develop some wicked-far-out technology and eventually won some races. But after a while they relented and started building two stroke 500cc GP bikes and dominated for years....

Comparing two strokes and four strokes bases upon displacement is tricky business. The two engine types operate in fundamentally different ways. They are both reciprocating piston engines, but the similarily just about stops there. Imagine trying to compare a turbine engine to a four stroke engine based upon displacement. They are both internal combustion engines, but they use their combustion chambers in fundamentally different ways. That's kind of an extreme example, but I bring it up to highlight that two strokes and four strokes use their combustion chambers in different ways too--yet we still try and compare them based on displacement.

I've always wondered why no one has tried considering the crankcase volume of a two stroke as part of the total volume needed to complete a combustion cycle. After all, the volume and vaccum created UNDERNEATH the piston in a two stroke is integrated into its opertation. On a fourstroke, the only volume and vaccum that matters is ABOVE the piston. I'm not sure of the technical wisdom of that idea, but comparing combustion chamber volume alone falls short of telling the whole story.

It very difficult to draw meaningful comparisons between two and four stroke engine displacements. And that's unfortunate because using displacement seems like the logical way to compare them.

iamjasyn

07-03-2006, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by GPracer2500
That isn't completely accurate. Once upon a time in motorcycle Grand Prix roadracing the displacement limit was absolute--it didn't matter how many strokes you had. Honda bent over backwards to build a 500cc four stroke that could compete with 500cc two strokes. It took them ten years to figure out how to do it while remaining within the rest of the rulebook. They were forced to develop some wicked-far-out technology and eventually won some races. But after a while they relented and started building two stroke 500cc GP bikes and dominated for years....

Comparing two strokes and four strokes bases upon displacement is tricky business. The two engine types operate in fundamentally different ways. They are both reciprocating piston engines, but the similarily just about stops there. Imagine trying to compare a turbine engine to a four stroke engine based upon displacement. They are both internal combustion engines, but they use their combustion chambers in fundamentally different ways. That's kind of an extreme example, but I bring it up to highlight that two strokes and four strokes use their combustion chambers in different ways too--yet we still try and compare them based on displacement.

I've always wondered why no one has tried considering the crankcase volume of a two stroke as part of the total volume needed to complete a combustion cycle. After all, the volume and vaccum created UNDERNEATH the piston in a two stroke is integrated into its opertation. On a fourstroke, the only volume and vaccum that matters is ABOVE the piston. I'm not sure of the technical wisdom of that idea, but comparing combustion chamber volume alone falls short of telling the whole story.

It very difficult to draw meaningful comparisons between two and four stroke engine displacements. And that's unfortunate because using displacement seems like the logical way to compare them.

Interesting point. How the mixture gets above the piston is where they are exactly different. The combustion area, where the power is actually produced of a 2stroke and 4stroke are both above the piston however, where we can measure the cylinder chamber's available burn in cc's. Since the push from the crankcase is directly related to piston size and stroke, I don't think you could classify the design as a supercharger or something...

The design difference that matters in my opinion is that 4strokes have a more efficient design for completing a burn of the available gases. Simply worded, this is great for fuel economy and in practical terms, enforcing smog controls. The 2stroke we're thinking of in comparison is horrible at both. However, the efficiency of use of mechanical energy and simplicity and weight are where the 4stroke lags behind the 2stroke. It's hard to compete with a burn every (2x) revolution of the crank. Also, the only rotating mass (minus tranny) is the piston and crank. The more mass and the further away it is from the point of rotation requires more and more energy the more these variables increase. If the measure of those variables is 0 (no cam, etc), you're doing even better in terms of mechanical advantage.

Think of how revvy a well-running 2stroke is. Think of all the things in there that aren't rotating around... For what I do, this is more fun.

quadracer3

07-03-2006, 07:34 PM

who gives a f#$@ ya are acting like some little *****s in here and f@#$ those pansie 250rs real motors have valves *****es
:eek2: :macho

Iliketogofast

07-03-2006, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by quadracer3
who gives a f#$@ ya are acting like some little *****s in here and f@#$ those pansie 250rs real motors have valves *****es
:eek2: :macho

Lol...

outlaw450r

07-03-2006, 08:22 PM

If you like 2 strokes ride them, If you like four strokes ride them.

MMcCannon

07-04-2006, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by iamjasyn
You're right. And now that 90% is extending it's way into offroad vehicles. I'm not arguing with that, you ineffectual. I'm also not arguing with the deisre to protect the environment. I'm arguing with how you think that a 4stroke is a faster motor than a 2stroke. I'm arguing with the fact that you don't seem to realize that you're not riding the motor you would be if it weren't for these new laws - so choke on a timing chain fu**er. So without a counter point that addresses my point, it's your point that is moot. Crack open a dictionary too while you're on your high horse. Oh and you're right again. I'm kicking 450's asses at 180 less cc's. You're 100% right. Thanks for helping my point along further.

Ineffectual...OMG how impressive, you can't do 2nd grade math but you have an extensive vocabulary. For the record, I nor anyone else to my knowledge has said that 4strokes are "faster" motors. In fact, several of us have mentioned how much snappier 2strokes are when you hit the powerband compared to a 4stroke. Further more...no one has or would argue the fact that motors would be different without the EPA's influence, everyone already knows this even before your enlightening speech. We would all probably still be riding 2strokes, which would be fine to me (I have pointed out in earlier posts that I enjoy riding 2strokes). Maybe before you try to make your point, you should go back thru and actually read the thread...find out what the f*** we are actually talking about and what we have already discussed. Then, feel free to come up with a point and I will counter. I know you can because I read your post above on rotating mass and crank drag, and you must be a fast learner because it actually made sense. Congratulations.

By the way, I got that timing chain swingin buddy.

07-04-2006, 10:11 AM

bottomline, 2 strokes are faster...CC Vs CC 2 stroke wins 95% of the time, if you ahve to say one is faster then the other that is....2 strokes win its just the way it is...next topic

ohsobad_chevy

07-06-2006, 12:38 PM

AHHHH HAAAA...I knew this would be fun to read. The one good question remains, if 2 strokes are soooo much better.. why do all the pros and freestylers ride 4 strokes???? 250r's had a good run, but they are now obsolete!! I like 2 strokes, dont get me wrong, but 4 stroke technology is going to run 2 strokes off the map!! You can't beat a 2 stroke in the sand fellas!! :cool:

GPracer2500

07-06-2006, 02:22 PM

If only the manufacters would use direct injection fuel delivery technology we could keep buying two strokes. Two strokes can be made EPA compliant--it's currently being done in snowmobile and outboard engine powerplants.

ohsobad_chevy

07-06-2006, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by GPracer2500
If only the manufacters would use direct injection fuel delivery technology we could keep buying two strokes. Two strokes can be made EPA compliant--it's currently being done in snowmobile and outboard engine powerplants.

Yeah, That would be good... don't get me wrong bro. 2 strokes are fun to ride (as with any quad) I just llike thumpers better... personal preference..

07-06-2006, 06:12 PM

2 strokes acan still compete and if they changed the rules (CC vs CC) to a more even playing field the 2 strokes would dominate again but the manufactures dont want that, they want to sell their new top product witch is 4 strokes because of all those tree huggers......and look at how much it costs to rebuild a 4 stroke compared to a 200 dollar job on a 2 stroke, it really comes down to money and 4 stroke motor are way more expensive because they have more moving parts...2 strokes really are the average joes choice on going fast for cheap...you can buy banshees and 250Rs and Lts, 250 bikes all day for 1500-2500 that will keep right up with a 5-8K quad or bike

Iliketogofast

07-06-2006, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by ohsobad_chevy
AHHHH HAAAA...I knew this would be fun to read. The one good question remains, if 2 strokes are soooo much better.. why do all the pros and freestylers ride 4 strokes???? 250r's had a good run, but they are now obsolete!! I like 2 strokes, dont get me wrong, but 4 stroke technology is going to run 2 strokes off the map!! You can't beat a 2 stroke in the sand fellas!! :cool:

Because there isn't a bike that allows them to compete in pro and pro production classes with a 2 stroke. 250Rs were banned a few years before the 450's came out. If they weren't, you'd probably still be riding your 400EX and I wouldn't have any real competetion.

I would also be willing to bet that if the EPA, PETA, and all the other hippies weren't allowed to rule the universe, they would be making 2 stroke bikes to fight right alongside the thumpers in pro MX. You would see an equal distrubution of both on the tracks.

330exkid

07-07-2006, 03:50 AM

i agree with everyone. i own a R personaly
my 3 freinds have the new 450's and i cant complan about the power i keep up with them and they keep up with me
its mostly about to just have fun, and to injoy what we have, ya us R fans will always think that the R will never be replaced, but your new 4 strokes are being replaced as we speak

and to honda im going to be callin you to see if i can work aomthin out with a saber kit
cuz that things crazy lol

to everyone els, just RIDE

ohsobad_chevy

07-07-2006, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
Because there isn't a bike that allows them to compete in pro and pro production classes with a 2 stroke. 250Rs were banned a few years before the 450's came out. If they weren't, you'd probably still be riding your 400EX and I wouldn't have any real competetion.

I would also be willing to bet that if the EPA, PETA, and all the other hippies weren't allowed to rule the universe, they would be making 2 stroke bikes to fight right alongside the thumpers in pro MX. You would see an equal distrubution of both on the tracks.

You seem to be pretty touchy on the subject. You just can't deal with the fact that 2 strokes are obsolete. 4 stroke technology will outweigh 2 strokes to the point of them disappearing. I do agree with you that PETA and EPA are responsible for most of it. F'n basturds!! Do you agree with me that a 450r/yfz450 will beat the **** outt of a stock bore 250r? If you think it won't... you are sadly mistaken, sir. :)

iamjasyn

07-07-2006, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by ohsobad_chevy
You seem to be pretty touchy on the subject. You just can't deal with the fact that 2 strokes are obsolete. 4 stroke technology will outweigh 2 strokes to the point of them disappearing. I do agree with you that PETA and EPA are responsible for most of it. F'n basturds!! Do you agree with me that a 450r/yfz450 will beat the **** outt of a stock bore 250r? If you think it won't... you are sadly mistaken, sir. :)

Obviously you like the 4stroke, cool. But my beef is that like in your last statement you're comparing a large motor to a smaller one. If you want to race your 450 against a 1000CBR who's going to win? If the stock 450 is faster than a stock R, which is probably negligable since they put out about the same hp from what I hear, look at how many more cc's it has. Again, who win's between the 450 and the 1000 if that 450 is sooo dam superior? Compare a 450 2stroke and 450 4stroke and you've got an embarassment on your hands. I beat piped 450's on my 270 with ease. I pass 400ex's like they're fricking standing still! I'm talking paddle tires here. They had to change the whole class structure to even fit somethign competitive in! You have 450's in traditionally 250 cc class, man.

It's not one person getting touchy, it's lots of people brother. Go to everything2stroke.com and see ALL kinds of people who hate 4strokes. They even make money selling t-shirts about their loathing for the fact that their favorite platform is being pushed out.

And you're right, the epa and whoever else are the main catalysts for the move. Marketing departments have HUGE funding for pushing this product. The ad's are funny to us who have been here since before this whole propaganda started. "The new 4stroooke" i hear on the radio... it makes me laugh. It's not new... but I listen to that and I'm like "what??". Whatever... I have enough 2stroke stuff in my garage to keep me on what I like to ride.

330exkid

07-07-2006, 11:59 AM

its to have fun. ya the R my be old but it still holds its own aginst the new 4 strokes
ya a stock 450 will probly eat a stock R but stock R's are hard to find

a 265 witht he right stuff will eat the new 450's

GPracer2500

07-07-2006, 03:44 PM

I don't really buy into the displacement for displacement part of the discussion. I realize that's the natural way to attempt a comparison between the two engine types. It's a (mostly) established fact that a two stroke needs a smaller cylinder than a four stroke to make equal power. But they're just so different in the way they opperate that I just can't draw a meaningful correlation between them based upon displacement alone.

I mean, who cares if a four stroke needs more displacement than a two stroke to make equal power? Why hadicap the four stokes' displacement? If your gonna do that then why not handicap the two stroke to a tiny little exahust system that doesn't capitalize on the reverse supercharging affect of a normal two stroke expansion chamber? Should we limit port size, valve size, and bore/stroke dimensions too? No, of course not. If you want to make a meaningful comparison between different engine types then you've got to let each type exploit various design aspects.

My point is that each engine has different design parameters that allow them to function to their full potential. Two strokes just need less combustion chamber volume than four strokes. So what. Displacement isn't the only thing that makes an internal combustion engine what it is.

iamjasyn

07-07-2006, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by GPracer2500
I don't really buy into the displacement for displacement part of the discussion. I realize that's the natural way to attempt a comparison between the two engine types. It's a (mostly) established fact that a two stroke needs a smaller cylinder than a four stroke to make equal power. But they're just so different in the way they opperate that I just can't draw a meaningful correlation between them based upon displacement alone.

I mean, who cares if a four stroke needs more displacement than a two stroke to make equal power? Why hadicap the four stokes' displacement? If your gonna do that then why not handicap the two stroke to a tiny little exahust system that doesn't capitalize on the reverse supercharging affect of a normal two stroke expansion chamber? Should we limit port size, valve size, and bore/stroke dimensions too? No, of course not. If you want to make a meaningful comparison between different engine types then you've got to let each type exploit various design aspects.

My point is that each engine has different design parameters that allow them to function to their full potential. Two strokes just need less combustion chamber volume than four strokes. So what. Displacement isn't the only thing that makes an internal combustion engine what it is.

I believe you're wrong. If they're not able to be compared cc for cc then tell us why the amount of power produced by a 2stroke on the power stroke, and the power produced by a 4stroke on the power stroke, if they were the same cc and fuel mixture, would be any different. At that moment they are they might as well be the same engine. A small amount of research will tell you that the theory is that 2strokes will produce twice the power that a 4stroke will, simply because it produces the SAME power but just in HALF the crank movement. It's not like one has a turbo and the other doesn't. In fact, the 4stroke actually has the advantage when it comes to efficient fuel/air induction. If you could produce a 2stroke that operated as efficiently as a 4stroke you would find roughly twice the horsepower per cc, per rev. 2strokes by the way run in massive ships and heavy equipment because of the increased power they produce per it's size compared to a 4stroke. I don't want cams and crap in my engine if i don't need them. They're not producing me any more power than I can have without them, per combustion chamber size.

So Honda discontinuing the CR and the R... I wave my middle finger at the industry and sponsored racers alike. fu*k em. I've stocked up on parts and I've turned my back on the industry. That's just me though. Incidently, I saw a sponsored racer pull up next to me at a local track here in the Temecula area. He had two bikes, a new 4stroke and a well used 2stroke. I'm not saying it means anything but he rode the 2stroke that day. Just an observation.

People have this feeling that they want their thing to be the coolest and the best. This has always been and probably always will be. If it weren't so we (I say loosely) wouldn't be so effected by cheap advertising tricks. Why is it that Arnold was elected Governor? Was it because of his resume? I will never say someone's 450 isn't a fun engine (it's just not what I want in my frame in the deep dunes). But I love this topic. I feel strongly about it because I hate that I can't get a TRX with a CR motor in it from the factory. I hate that we wont' be able to buy new 2stroke engines in our bikes much longer because of epa deadlines. I hate that even your 4stroke atv's will have to be reborn with even MORE smog sh*t on it soon to meet the NEXT epa deadline. So don't expect me to stop arguing the move to these engines. I dislike them at the end of my throttle cable but I hate them for what they represent to me.

GPracer2500

07-07-2006, 07:54 PM

You completely missed my point. You're talking like I hate two strokes and am jumping up and down with joy that four strokes are taking over. I don't freel that way. I own two strokes and four strokes and like them both.

Originally posted by iamjasyn
I believe you're wrong. If they're not able to be compared cc for cc then tell us why the amount of power produced by a 2stroke on the power stroke, and the power produced by a 4stroke on the power stroke, if they were the same cc and fuel mixture, would be any different. At that moment they are they might as well be the same engine. A small amount of research will tell you that the theory is that 2strokes will produce twice the power that a 4stroke will, simply because it produces the SAME power but just in HALF the crank movement. It's not like one has a turbo and the other doesn't. In fact, the 4stroke actually has the advantage when it comes to efficient fuel/air induction. If you could produce a 2stroke that operated as efficiently as a 4stroke you would find roughly twice the horsepower per cc, per rev. 2strokes by the way run in massive ships and heavy equipment because of the increased power they produce per it's size compared to a 4stroke. I don't want cams and crap in my engine if i don't need them. They're not producing me any more power than I can have without them, per combustion chamber size.

Wrong about what? Notice that I already agreed that cc for cc two strokes make more power. That's a moot point. My point was that fact in-and-of-itself doesn't make two strokes "superior". If you DO compare cc to cc than a CR250R is going to be higher performing than a CR250F. But who cares? All you have to do is make the CR250F a 450 and now you've got machines that can compete against each other. Each one has it's advantages and disadvantages. THAT'S why I don't place an emphisis on cc vs. cc.

I can sypathize with not wanting valves and cams. There's a lot of good reason not to want them. But that is a different issue than displacement. Related? Sure, but only insofar as a whole bunch of other engine factors are also related. Again, I find more meaning in considering the ENTIRE design of the engine, not just displacement by its self.

Originally posted by iamjasyn

So Honda discontinuing the CR and the R... I wave my middle finger at the industry and sponsored racers alike. fu*k em. I've stocked up on parts and I've turned my back on the industry. That's just me though. Incidently, I saw a sponsored racer pull up next to me at a local track here in the Temecula area. He had two bikes, a new 4stroke and a well used 2stroke. I'm not saying it means anything but he rode the 2stroke that day. Just an observation.

People have this feeling that they want their thing to be the coolest and the best. This has always been and probably always will be. If it weren't so we (I say loosely) wouldn't be so effected by cheap advertising tricks. Why is it that Arnold was elected Governor? Was it because of his resume? I will never say someone's 450 isn't a fun engine (it's just not what I want in my frame in the deep dunes). But I love this topic. I feel strongly about it because I hate that I can't get a TRX with a CR motor in it from the factory. I hate that we wont' be able to buy new 2stroke engines in our bikes much longer because of epa deadlines. I hate that even your 4stroke atv's will have to be reborn with even MORE smog sh*t on it soon to meet the NEXT epa deadline. So don't expect me to stop arguing the move to these engines. I dislike them at the end of my throttle cable but I hate them for what they represent to me.

I'm not arguing people don't have a right to be upset that the manufactures have mostly abandon two stroke technology. If you want to talk about that then I'll bow out because I don't see the point in debating who's mad at who and for what reason.

ohsobad_chevy

07-07-2006, 10:01 PM

I'm glad that we can have this discussion like mature adults and not get on the defensive. I do agree that EPA's bull shiit and not being able to get a TRX with a CR250 2-stroke engine is a load of crap. I think that if they are going to continue to manufacture 4 strokes, they should continue to manufacturer 2 strokes alike. People will always have their preferences and diversity is what makes the world a interesting place, right? I understand why 2 stroke guys are pissed, but I don't think that bashing 4 strokes and saying they are worthless is appropriate. 4 strokes have really came a long way and I personally think that the technology and craftsmanship in a 4 stroke and reliability at the same time, is something that is hard to beat. I will say again, 2 strokes are great fun, I enjoy riding a quad....period, whether it be 2 or 4 stroke. :cool:

iamjasyn

07-07-2006, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by GPracer2500
You completely missed my point. You're talking like I hate two strokes and am jumping up and down with joy that four strokes are taking over. I don't freel that way. I own two strokes and four strokes and like them both.

Wrong about what? Notice that I already agreed that cc for cc two strokes make more power. That's a moot point. My point was that fact in-and-of-itself doesn't make two strokes "superior". If you DO compare cc to cc than a CR250R is going to be higher performing than a CR250F. But who cares? All you have to do is make the CR250F a 450 and now you've got machines that can compete against each other. Each one has it's advantages and disadvantages. THAT'S why I don't place an emphisis on cc vs. cc.

I can sypathize with not wanting valves and cams. There's a lot of good reason not to want them. But that is a different issue than displacement. Related? Sure, but only insofar as a whole bunch of other engine factors are also related. Again, I find more meaning in considering the ENTIRE design of the engine, not just displacement by its self.

I'm not arguing people don't have a right to be upset that the manufactures have mostly abandon two stroke technology. If you want to talk about that then I'll bow out because I don't see the point in debating who's mad at who and for what reason.

I understand what you're saying. My argument is not that a 450 is not a comparable engine with a 250 2stroke - all things considered - the practical application of two competitive systems - the entire bike even. I'm not arguing with that. I'm arguing with what I thougth you were implying that all these other differing factors somehow make the engine's not comparable in cc's. That is an implication that I think is factually wrong. cc's and how they are used is what they actually do have in common is my point. So we make a 250 a 450 to be competitive - makes perfect legitimate sense.

Here's where we should agree. If someone develops a 6 stroke and it turns out that it's 100% more fuel efficient than a 4stroke, and easier to control emisions on, and suddenly 4 strokes were banned, but this engine was also 100% more complicated and burdened with other mechanical inefficiencies, and needed twice the displacement, all "entire" things considered we WOULD NOT be better off in terms of a performance engine, I think you'd agree. We're not using these things to send our family to the grocery store in every day. We want efficient, high output in a small motor. Absolutely I do not want a cam... Why would I? Because it makes a better racing motor? That is my point to the rest of the consumers. ...unless of course as you stated, I liked 4 stroke power - true they have come a long ways. Which I have no argument with at all. But on to another problem, that hopped up 450 is not cheap when you want to upgrade it, manufacture it, box it, ship it, not to mention market it. That 6 stroke may be a great, super engineered motor, but eventually, it would be hard to find people willing to think a round peg through a square hole is the best design idea for small engine racing applications...

GPracer2500

07-08-2006, 01:09 AM

Cool. I think we're getting on the same page now. But to dispel the idea that I've said anything that is "factually wrong" :ermm: , I'll continue.

Originally posted by iamjasyn
I understand what you're saying. My argument is not that a 450 is not a comparable engine with a 250 2stroke - all things considered - the practical application of two competitive systems - the entire bike even. I'm not arguing with that. I'm arguing with what I thougth you were implying that all these other differing factors somehow make the engine's not comparable in cc's. That is an implication that I think is factually wrong. cc's and how they are used is what they actually do have in common is my point. So we make a 250 a 450 to be competitive - makes perfect legitimate sense.

I'm not saying that you can't compare the engines based on cc. I'm saying that I don't think that comparison means very much. All the other things you bring up (cost, complexity, power-to-weight, how the displacement is used, etc.) are what I think are the more important characteristics. And many of them are independent of displacement. So unless I'm restricted by a racing rule book or something, I'm not going to let a comprison of displacement alone decide which engine I like better.

You decide on the number of strokes and how you get the gas in/out of the engine FIRST. Then you pick whatever displacement will give you the performace you're after. Again, that is why I don't think comparing cc to cc means much. The engine type decides what the displacement needs to be (for some specified level of performance), not the other way around. Looking at it that way; displacement is almost a side-effect--not a defining characteristic.

If one wants to tout the advantages of the two stroke then great. But don't focus on displacement. That doesn't really get to the root of the difference between them. Using an expanded definition of displacement that is the cc's of combustion space actually used for combustion per 360 degrees of crank rotation would make more sense. It makes more sense because then what you're really considering the total amount of space used for combustion over time (two stroke cycle vs. four stroke cycle).

cc's ARE an obvious way to compare them. I mean, most racing organizations that allow both types use displacement as the comparison point. In fact MOST PEOPLE use displacement as the primary way to compare the two. While this is practical and it sort of works on some levels--it's my contention that we'd be better served looking at the whole package before judging based on displacement. If it was such a 1:1 or 1:2 (or whatever) comparison than why didn't the four strokes start out as 500s?

I don't know how many ways I can try to say it. Displacement isn't the way to look at this.

Originally posted by iamjasyn

Here's where we should agree. If someone develops a 6 stroke and it turns out that it's 100% more fuel efficient than a 4stroke, and easier to control emisions on, and suddenly 4 strokes were banned, but this engine was also 100% more complicated and burdened with other mechanical inefficiencies, and needed twice the displacement, all "entire" things considered we WOULD NOT be better off in terms of a performance engine, I think you'd agree. We're not using these things to send our family to the grocery store in every day. We want efficient, high output in a small motor. Absolutely I do not want a cam... Why would I? Because it makes a better racing motor? That is my point to the rest of the consumers. ...unless of course as you stated, I liked 4 stroke power - true they have come a long ways. Which I have no argument with at all. But on to another problem, that hopped up 450 is not cheap when you want to upgrade it, manufacture it, box it, ship it, not to mention market it. That 6 stroke may be a great, super engineered motor, but eventually, it would be hard to find people willing to think a round peg through a square hole is the best design idea for small engine racing applications...

I do see what you're saying there and agree to a significant extent. There's all sorts of directions that engine technology can go--and not all of it is good for us.

We might be ending up at the same place but coming from different angles.

MMcCannon

07-08-2006, 11:28 AM

I see both sides but still agree that cc vs. cc is not a legitamate comparison point. The bottom line is that a 2 stroke produces power twice as often. It only makes sense that your going to need twice as many cc's to make the same amount to power on a 4stroke. I like both types and ride both types, both have advantages and disadvantages but cc vs. cc is no way to compare. The difference in design is way to different.

07-09-2006, 08:31 AM

i think its great when a new 2006 updated 4 stroke (some have EFI, some dont but all will soon) get all impressed that they beat a carb 2 stroke from the mid-late 80s....look at the 250R trikes, they kill alot of quads and bikes out there, its great! and they ban the 250r being run in races, its the only way they could try and get people to switch over....

as for me, i will always stay 2 stroke...its funny when people blow up their 4 stroke and it costs them over a grand to replace the motor (if its even worth replacing) and to the Rs and shees, and 2 stroke bikes, itll cost us around 200 bucks (sometimes less)...i dont want valves and cams in my motor when i dont need them to haul ***....the less moving parts the better....

and just like someone said up there, the R will never be replaced while the 450s are being replaced as we speak, thats great! if they so much as bumped a 300cc 2 stroke agenst a 450 4 stroke, you would see all the 450s out to the road....

but bottomline is that yamaha, honda, suzuki, kawi...they dont care if u ride a 4 stroke or 2 stroke, its all about the money and pushing the "hot" product...and right now the 450s are the hot thing....its just a business and they are out to make the most money that they can...just like why didnt yamaha come out with the EFI yfz yet?? they are just milkin a product till sales drop and then release something "new" but the smarter people are the ones that are going out buying those aftermarket framed Rs while they are cheap and are getting twice the quad for 1/2 as much as a stock 450

ohsobad_chevy

07-09-2006, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by Honda86
i think its great when a new 2006 updated 4 stroke (some have EFI, some dont but all will soon) get all impressed that they beat a carb 2 stroke from the mid-late 80s....look at the 250R trikes, they kill alot of quads and bikes out there, its great! and they ban the 250r being run in races, its the only way they could try and get people to switch over....

as for me, i will always stay 2 stroke...its funny when people blow up their 4 stroke and it costs them over a grand to replace the motor (if its even worth replacing) and to the Rs and shees, and 2 stroke bikes, itll cost us around 200 bucks (sometimes less)...i dont want valves and cams in my motor when i dont need them to haul ***....the less moving parts the better....

and just like someone said up there, the R will never be replaced while the 450s are being replaced as we speak, thats great! if they so much as bumped a 300cc 2 stroke agenst a 450 4 stroke, you would see all the 450s out to the road....

but bottomline is that yamaha, honda, suzuki, kawi...they dont care if u ride a 4 stroke or 2 stroke, its all about the money and pushing the "hot" product...and right now the 450s are the hot thing....its just a business and they are out to make the most money that they can...just like why didnt yamaha come out with the EFI yfz yet?? they are just milkin a product till sales drop and then release something "new" but the smarter people are the ones that are going out buying those aftermarket framed Rs while they are cheap and are getting twice the quad for 1/2 as much as a stock 450

Thanks for sharing your opinion. The 450r will last at least twice as long as the 250r before it needs any type of work. Your 250r will need a hone and a new piston approximately every 150 hours, sometimes less. It all boils down to personal preference and I do like 2 strokes, just prefer a 4 stroke instead. In a good life, we would each have a 2 and a 4 stroke in the garage to play with. :D :D

07-09-2006, 11:15 AM

no the new high cmpression 450s do not last nearly as long as the 400exs or other mild 4 strokes...they are finding out that the new 450s need to be kept up just like a 2 stroke, and yes all a 2 stroke needs is a hone and piston and rings...80 bucks ofr piston and ring and i hone all my own jugs...now a 4 stroke rebuild will costs hundred apon hundred of dolars, and if lasts twice as long the 2 stroke is still ahead :D and yes is a perfect world we all would own both

LT250Racer609

07-09-2006, 11:39 AM

about how much HP does the new LTR with the map mod, air box lid removed and gutted exhaust put out??

GPracer2500

07-09-2006, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by LT250Racer609
about how much HP does the new LTR with the map mod, air box lid removed and gutted exhaust put out??

About 45 I think.

I think it's mostly true about the 450F bikes not having the reliability and low maintanence we usually associate with four strokes. The Yamahas seem pretty darn durable but even they recently recalled some 250Fs for valve issues. They'll get better though. The quad versions of these engines all seem to be more reliable. With Honda's 4 valve Unicam, replacing the ti valves with stainless makes a big difference in reliabilty (the TRX has stainless). Maybe give Yamaha the edge in the valve train department because of thier 3 intake valves. My theory: 3 intake valves = less aggressive cam specs = less valve wear.

iamjasyn

07-10-2006, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by GPracer2500
I think it's mostly true about the 450F bikes not having the reliability and low maintanence we usually associate with four strokes. The Yamahas seem pretty darn durable but even they recently recalled some 250Fs for valve issues. They'll get better though. The quad versions of these engines all seem to be more reliable. With Honda's 4 valve Unicam, replacing the ti valves with stainless makes a big difference in reliabilty (the TRX has stainless). Maybe give Yamaha the edge in the valve train department because of thier 3 intake valves. My theory? 3 intake valves = less aggressive cam specs = less valve wear.

You have fun with that! Just pokin ya. :D

guggi102

07-13-2006, 11:22 AM

Well, first off to increase a 250r's displacement to a 450 would be a very large advantage for the 2-stroke. A 2-stroke vs. 4-stroke engine comparison is harder then just look at numbers. Each machine would need to be riden be a rider who rides each machine properly. What I mean by this, I have a friend who races Southwick with a yz250. One of few in his class. Ported, suspension, and a cool head. He wins or places every weekend. The same person has a yz450f and does not use it. Why? Because his riding style is more suited for a 2 stroke. There is a reason AMA and all the motocross groups allow a 4-stroke DOUBLE the displacement of a 2-stroke.

I enjoy seeing people say they are on a 250r because they couldn't afford a 450, but you look in their sig and theres a list of mods ontop of the machine purchase. Not everyone wants to have payments, but maybe save instead of modding a machine you don't want? I own a 250r and have spent just over 4500 building it now(I started with a frame) and had I wanted a 4-stroke it'd be sitting in my yard currently because for the 5500 total goal I am trying to stay under can buy me a 450. Not many people on here have stock machines. I love the early comment about spending thousands to keep these "dinosaurs" running and racing. Is your machine stock? I am pretty sure a set of LT a-arms for a 250r and a 450r is comparable in price. Money should not truely be a factor in what machine you want, save and hold out for what you want. I wanted a 250r for years and couldn't afford it with drag racing my mustangs and other hobbies, but now that I can I have what I want.

The way a 2-stroke runs is easier to wrap your head around and work on for many people. 4-strokes are more complex, each has mods that increase power more then other things. 2-strokes tend to be able to run at a higher RPM for a longer period of time without engine failure, but a 4-stroke can drag a house with torque. Each can be as fast as the next, a dyno doesn't says who comes in first on any track...

Both machines are works of art, don't cheat the other group of admirers, our reason here is to enjoy riding. The 250r will ALWAYS be what it is, right now slightly downplayed by the arrival of 450's but I am pretty sure when I walked into K&K ATV I saw two beautiful 250r's and not 450's. Every needs to respect both machines, 250r's gave us our sport, 450's are continuing it.

broke

07-24-2006, 07:59 AM

I'd be interested to see a side by side comparison of equal sized 2 and 4 strokes. I know the two stroke would make more power, but where and how long it makes the power is of more interest to me. CP Industries makes a 500cc jug for 250rs and I know there are big bore versions for the 450. Iknow the 500 will make 90HP+, but how does it ride in real world applications.

I myself like the dinosaurs, my Banshee to me is something I can't replace. I fell that I would be taking a step down to go to a new four stroke. The only thing that would keep me from winning anywhere on this is the pilot.

It would cost close to 20K to build it, but oh well.

iamjasyn

07-26-2006, 01:48 PM

Pulled this from another site:

Go here (http://www.lasleeve.com/master.html) ....then click on "Dirt Bike Magazine: Cost of 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke..." on the lower right, THEN to read all the article click on the "tumbling star" above the date!!!

DezSled

07-27-2006, 12:31 AM

This has to be one of the best threads I have read to date. Your posts have been very thought provoking. I dig 2 strokes and have just purchased a 4 stroke 6 months ago. I am stoked at both, just that the 2 stroke still gives me that special 'scare' when I downshift to fifth at speed when I hit that gnarly whoop going down that desert wash and I am still on four wheels gassing it...
4 strokes are kinda heavy tho, but the torque mmmmyah but the rev happyness of the 2 stroke...goes on an on

Never give up on the 2 strokes, if your old you like 4s if your young its 2. wow I said that (remember patrol packs?)

can you spell saber?

ohsobad_chevy

07-27-2006, 08:23 AM

To Each His Own!!!!;)

iamjasyn

07-27-2006, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by ohsobad_chevy
Thanks for sharing your opinion. The 450r will last at least twice as long as the 250r before it needs any type of work. Your 250r will need a hone and a new piston approximately every 150 hours, sometimes less. It all boils down to personal preference and I do like 2 strokes, just prefer a 4 stroke instead. In a good life, we would each have a 2 and a 4 stroke in the garage to play with. :D :D

Not to pick on you personally, but I'm wondering if you read that "reality check" article I just posted? If not, you may want to check it out if for no other reason to see what technicians are observing about the high hp 4's.

guggi102

07-27-2006, 11:59 PM

The new 4 strokes hold no benefit in the racing end of the spectrum in terms of rebuilding and what not. The new 4's with a nice 15,000 area rev limit do NOT hold many more hours then a 2 stroke top end. Price out a 4' top end valves and parts and labor. Doubled edged sword here. Riding style should be the main factor.I dont care if I have a single rear wheel HP, if I am faster then you, I win.

ohsobad_chevy

07-28-2006, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by iamjasyn
Not to pick on you personally, but I'm wondering if you read that "reality check" article I just posted? If not, you may want to check it out if for no other reason to see what technicians are observing about the high hp 4's.

Not to pick on your personally...but do you know how to post a link to the thread?? I will write up a how to if you wish. :p

iamjasyn

07-28-2006, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by ohsobad_chevy
Not to pick on your personally...but do you know how to post a link to the thread?? I will write up a how to if you wish. :p

Not to pick on you personally, but go ahead, because the link seems to work from my browser. I think 2 and 3 clicks are all that's needed. So what now? ...Not that this has anything to do with 4strokes being a maintenance nightmare, which was my point.

iamjasyn

07-28-2006, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by iamjasyn
Not to pick on you personally, but go ahead, because the link seems to work from my browser. I think 2 and 3 clicks are all that's needed. So what now? ...Not that this has anything to do with 4strokes being a maintenance nightmare, which was my point. Go ahead.

Since you can't seem to make it work from here, try it from here. The guys there seem to have been able to. thread (http://forums.everything2stroke.com/2-strokes-news/11735-2stroke-vs-4stroke-maintenance.html)

ohsobad_chevy

07-28-2006, 11:03 AM

Yes, the new 450s are making higher compression and are loosing reliability, but all quads require maintenance, 4 stroke or 2 stroke...
I am not going to play this game of which one is better, I like 2 and 4 strokes, alike! :)

iamjasyn

07-28-2006, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by ohsobad_chevy
Yes, the new 450s are making higher compression and are loosing reliability, but all quads require maintenance, 4 stroke or 2 stroke...
I am not going to play this game of which one is better, I like 2 and 4 strokes, alike! :)

I understand you like 2 and 4strokes - but 4strokes better. I like XR, M3 4strokes. I was ONLY pointing out that this statement regarding 450's may not be as true as you thought - and if you do go twice as long, it DEFINETLY is going to cost you more to do that work. Read that whole article. It's interesting if nothing else.

"The 450r will last at least twice as long as the 250r before it needs any type of work."

wilkin250r

08-22-2006, 09:48 AM

I don't quite agree that the only reason the 250r isn't raced is because it was unfairly forced out of competition. Sure, there was some pressure, but I recall a LOT of YZ426 conversions even when the 250r was perfectly legal.

csr250r

08-27-2006, 08:05 PM

ya 250rs r 20 years older and they still compete and can win without much effort. i respect the new 450s but 250rs were raced in gnc and gncc till the last race the EPA let them and they still wooped the 4 strokes. horse power really dont mean ****. i have seen drag bikes lose to other drag bikes that have 50 less hp.

buck naked-r

08-27-2006, 11:22 PM

i sure would like you 2-stroke guys to come around my way......i just left the drag-strip>>[660ft on pavement]...and theres was 4banshees there

ask me if they won

ive ran into alot of banshees......and only one has beaten me>>>and it was bad>>>he got me by about 8bikes

but for most of you who just put bigger carbs,boost-bottles,pipes,bored out>>>[thats not enough if you line up by me]

better bump the compression,stroke,and port it first....>>and be REALLY good off the line

2-strokes are PLAYED OUT

08-28-2006, 04:26 AM

id put my shee up agenst you....hell my R is alot slwer then ym shee and my R was faster then the 450s at the track this weekend

broke

09-01-2006, 04:36 AM

2-strokes are PLAYED OUT

That almost made me spit my coffee on my Keyboard. I'm a little curious about you motor, 68hp is a pretty serious motor for a four stroke.

As far as 2 strokes being played out, amusing if nothing else. I still can not find any of the 450s putting out big enough numbers to say they are superior to the 2s. I'm just stating facts, it's hard to argue them. I don't even want to hear about dyno numbers, we all know those are whatever we want them to be. There are just too many variables involved on a Dyno for me to ever consider them infallible.

09-01-2006, 06:19 AM

yeah bucknaked R...what is all done to your 450?? id put my shee up agenst you any day of the week...68 hp is alot for a 4 stroke, the most i ever seen outta a 450 was about 58-60 while tons and tons of cub banshees are making 95-120 hp for cheaper...i love how people blow their money trying to mod a 4 stroke motor

broke

09-01-2006, 06:59 AM

i love how people blow their money trying to mod a 4 stroke motor

While I don't consider it blowing money, "bang for the buck" just does not apply to the thumpers. I guess I just find it funny how people need to justify to themselves spending that amount of money to make marginally more HP. They find the "law of deminishing gains" quickly, the factories just did a very good job getting the motors to run well stock. It takes a lot to squeeze more out of them.

To get a Banshee for example to double it's stock HP is pretty easy, but to get a 450 to do it is expensive and just makes it's reliability questionable.

I'm not bashing the four strokes, so please don't get defensive. I agree that they will be the future, I just don't think they have the R&D time to have become a replacement for 2 strokes yet.

BucknakedR, why can't I find any of your dyno runs over 50HP? I'm just curious, maybe I just missed them.

csr250r

09-01-2006, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by buck naked-r
i sure would like you 2-stroke guys to come around my way......i just left the drag-strip>>[660ft on pavement]...and theres was 4banshees there

ask me if they won

ive ran into alot of banshees......and only one has beaten me>>>and it was bad>>>he got me by about 8bikes

but for most of you who just put bigger carbs,boost-bottles,pipes,bored out>>>[thats not enough if you line up by me]

better bump the compression,stroke,and port it first....>>and be REALLY good off the line

2-strokes are PLAYED OUT

lmao. if they r played out y the hell im i wasting any 4 stroke i race. i doubt that u r taking down every shee u face... show something to prove yourself, i have seen banshees waste preds yfz and 450rs without leaving 5th gear, and all it had was pipes.

i would put my life savings on a banshee that had the same ammount of money into it that u have into ur 450. maybe u can bs some ppl on this site but u dont have me fooled:D

ohsobad_chevy

09-01-2006, 09:04 PM

Hey guys...I have a 400ex with a UNI filter and a full HMF system....I put out about 30 horses but guess what....I have just as much fun on my quad as anyone else....dont get me wrong, a moded 450 and 250r will be in the garage some day!!! Only in a perfect life....we have both 2 and 4 stroke quads to play with!! :D

csr250r

09-01-2006, 10:08 PM

dont take me the wrong way, i like 4 strokes, but i am a 2 stroke guy and i dont belive that a 450r can own banshees on a drag...i mean come on.:rolleyes:

broke

09-02-2006, 06:00 AM

but for most of you who just put bigger carbs,boost-bottles,pipes,bored out>>>[thats not enough if you line up by me]

If you think boring and boost bottles are where the power is in a Banshee, you should probably excuse yourself from this thread and edit your posts.

I don't have a boost bottle on mine and it's on it's first overbore, does that mean mine isn't fast.

better bump the compression,stroke,and port it first....>>and be REALLY good off the line

Well, my static compression is just slightly higher than stock, is that the compression you were referring to? What kind of porting would you recommend?

Bumping the compression is a 4 stroke thing. Two strokes can end up with very low static compression, as mine does depending on your exhaust timing.

I still can't find those dyno slips with 68HP on them. And it better not be a sprayed run.

wilkin250r

09-02-2006, 05:38 PM

I've seen some pretty modified 450s that are plenty fast on the drag strip. I've seen them beat ported banshees. To be fair, the banshees weren't ported for all-out drag, but they certainly weren't stock, and those 450s ate them alive.

But I haven't seen anything even close to a 68HP. If it exists, I'd like so see it, and I'd like even MORE to know the work inside it, but I have a feeling it's all smoke and mirrors.

09-09-2006, 05:20 PM

yeah i think its great when the 68 hp 450 is no where to be found but yet, 115 banshees are everywhere, the banshee owns the drag strip....period...

alex guedea

09-28-2006, 11:44 PM

All I can say is that in my riding circle, my (pretty much stock) '86 is faster than any 450. Most people who ride my 250R just love it and realize what they've been missing. That X-factor is something that the 450's can reproduce....engine braking?? I don't know, all I know is that I''ll ride my 250R into the sunset....

09-29-2006, 09:14 AM

put id take a drag shee over any drag 4 stroke...and id take a full blown MX R over a full MX 450....id like to see the pros be able to ride full MX big bore Rs....that would be interesting to watch :cool:

but back to the HP numbers...there isnt any 450 (without nos) that can make 65 hp or more...if someone has seen it, post it up...but many many banshees are making twice that...but id hate to be beat by some 20 year old machines if i was on a 450 too so i understand how u guys are feeling :p

sandmanblue

09-29-2006, 03:15 PM

What's the point of comparing old motors like the 250's and Banshee's to the new 450's?

Pick a certain type of racing and one motor will be better. Who is going to prove that any one of these is the be all, end all, of engines?

I wouldn't trade my 450 for my old Banshee or 250R ever. That would be just stupid. The 450 is better at more things. Better in the desert, on the mx tracks, in CC, in the dunes... The 250R is just outdated now. The Banshee is better for hill racing - that's about it.

The Banshee has two cylinders and has an advantage right off the top. Why not compare that to a fantasy motor that has two 4 stroke cylinders at 175cc's each? it wouldn't be hard to get 65 hp out of that now would it? PLUS the torque curve would be wide and smooth - unlike the Banshee which has a lightswitch for a powerband...

2 strokes are dying - sorry guys. The truth hurts...

guggi102

09-29-2006, 05:55 PM

Saying two strokes are dying is a ignorant statment in general. Maybe every one should put aside their own personal ride to determine a better machine in their views, which might I add is a key phrase"In their view". Obviously someone who has poured their time and effort into their R will believe to the end its better, faster, stronger. Same goes for someone who just laid out the pretty pennies for a 450. Each has its strong suit, but the 2 stroke is only fading due to restrictions placed on the producers. The high development a new 4-strokes is greatly pushed by the desire to be more environmently friendly. An outdated R, I find that humorous. Whos geometry is copied? Lets not take credit away from an R just cause your offended by other posts, keep your statments based on FACTS.

09-29-2006, 08:38 PM

sure you might be able to get 65 hp out of a 175 twin 4 stroke...but you WONT be able to top the banshee motors that can make into the 100s all day long....

perfect example would be a Lt500 Vs a pred...both 500cc singles...does anyone dare compare both modded motors on the dyno??

i have only seen a few 4 stroke based quad motors reach into the high 50s and low 60s, and if they have, it has thousands invested... 2 strokes are just so easy to get power out of and they are so cheap too....

sandmanblue

10-04-2006, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by Honda86
sure you might be able to get 65 hp out of a 175 twin 4 stroke...but you WONT be able to top the banshee motors that can make into the 100s all day long....

perfect example would be a Lt500 Vs a pred...both 500cc singles...does anyone dare compare both modded motors on the dyno??

i have only seen a few 4 stroke based quad motors reach into the high 50s and low 60s, and if they have, it has thousands invested... 2 strokes are just so easy to get power out of and they are so cheap too....

You're not going to get 100 hp out of a 350cc Banshee motor... 70 - yes, with carbs, porting, pipes, head mods. But it's like riding a 125cc 2 stroke as far as powerband - on or off. You also have two cylinders - not one.

If you haven't seen 60+ hp thumpers, then look again. You might want to try the dyno room on this very website.

Your 500 cc scenario is just dumb. Oh, and BTW, how many 500 cc 2 strokes are out there today??? It's not illegal. They are still allowed in all sorts of open class racing. If they are so good, then where are they? And in case you start to run off somewhere, I owned and raced a CR500. So it's not like I'm some poser that never owned one...

I really wonder if any of you guys that still love 2 strokes have been to a race lately. Out of 250+ entrants at the ITP QuadCross a week ago, there were NO Banshee's at all. There was ONE 250 2 stroke competing against all the other 450's. The ONLY classes full of 2 strokes were the Blaster class and the mini's. Not exactly the top of the racing food chain there...

Why is that? Let's see. The Banshee can't compete against the big bore 450's or the Raptors because the powerband sucks and the chassis is terrible, and the 250's are underpowered. Yes, I said they are underpowered. Peak hp is NOT what makes a good motor. As a matter of fact, a good strong and WIDE torque curve is much better in racing situations. If peak power was all that was important, then things like powervalves would not have been invented. They were invented b'cuz the 2 stroke powerband is too narrow. That equals more tiring and less speed.

Topics like these are so pointless. Maybe that's why I don't spend much time on this site... All everybody wants to do is argue about stupid topics like this. Whatever... See you at the track, oh, nevermind, you guys don't go there...

guggi102

10-04-2006, 03:58 PM

No no no people do not race more 4 stroke because they are superior. its a riding style difference. I hate to tell you but I bet you cant ride a 2-stroke worth a hoot, but maybe a 4-stroke you can. 4-strokes are much easier to run quick on but people who UNDERSTAND how to ride a 2-stroke can be just as fast or faster.

iamjasyn

10-04-2006, 04:55 PM

I've said this so many times... the 4stroke 450R is here to meet legislation requirements. R 4strokes are expensive and unreliable. This is no reliable XR motor there wise ones. 4strokes have nice power curve, and I like them to cruise on, but look at how much it costs when you pump it up to match the simple, cheap 2stroke. Face it, you're a manufactuer's bit*h with that thing Because if the EPA wasn't leaning on Honda, you'd be on a 250R. Believe it because it's a fact. CC for CC 4strokes are sh*t. This is why we had 2strokes for so many racing years. Honda tried to compete against Suzuki and Yamaha in the 70's wiht an expensive 4stroke and got spanked by the 2strokes. This produced the CR... and notice it's not a CRf. The f stands for got fu*ked by the way.

I just pulled apart a well used 88R and the crank is just about at the service limit. There's a post in the 450r section in here called "Piss on Honda". Follow the threads linked in there and find yourself some nice big holes blown out of several motors that aren't NEARLY as old as a 250R. You have a work around motor and you're paying for it and guess what, I'm not and I will still break even of flat smoke your *** on a sand hill. A well tuned 2stroke is a power to be reconed with. I'm talking blueprinted, porting, pipe, carb and reeds. and tell me... out of those things which are the moving parts you have to maintain. Answer: none. So f**k yourself 4strokes. I don't want it. Especially because when I wick the throttle on my 270, no rev limiter is going to keep my valves from spinning sand out the back so hard you won't be able to see. So gee, do I want something less peaky for the dunes? No, I don't care, but if I did, I'd add a cylinder wiht a simple mechanism called a powervalve. Boy that would be tough... ouch... so just f**k off... because that loud farty pos is funny at first then it and you are just annoying.

10-04-2006, 05:53 PM

i said ive only seena couple low 60s thumpers, anythign past 65 is very hard to find...some people got stock bore banshees making in the 80s...and yes the banshee powerband is insane!!! thats why i love it and most people cannot ride 2 strokes now days, or they are just too lazy...I used to love watching motocross with the 125s and 250 screaming in and outta cornors, now its just all fartin out there and it took away from the thrill factor....

there will always be people that are loyal to 2 strokes and 4 strokes both....but you got to undertand that they shooved this whole 4 stroke revolution down racers throats for a while, and even with quad they banned the 250R....i went to the track with my R and there was a 450R and YFZ and i rode the YFZ, it was so disapointed and the guy with the YFZ it worried how much longer his motor will last (2004) and i was like man....my R is on STOCK crank, sure the top end has been rebuilt but to have a 20 year old stock bottom end, VERY impressive

to the big companys its all about pushing the top product and i honestly beleive that they are making them to break so you have to come back and buy another 6-7 K quad....when people are worried how much longer their bike or quad will last when its only 2 years old, you know something isnt right...its all about making money....i think if you took a poll on this site and asked people what they rode i bet more then 75% of people are riding somethign 2003 or newer, and of the 75% i bet most will be 4 strokes, and every year people are selling their 2003, 2004 and 2005 400s and 450 for the "new" and "better" ATVs and dirt bikes....and people throw away thousands in the process, thats why i wont buy a new quad or bike....plus the improvments are nothing (if there is any)

so all you 450 riders can bit your nails when that old age of 3 years comes around and your 450 is amazingly still running while my 1987 R and banshee are buzzing all around making more power and the R doing circles around ya.....on the stock crank!! (i wont mention the drag results with your 450 agenst a my "old" and "outdated" banshee :D)

450rJam

10-04-2006, 06:45 PM

87 250r, paul turner race pipe,fatboy,reeds,mild port job and I thought it ran pretty well........................until I bought a 06 450r fart maker.
sold the 2 stroke and dont miss it.
glad I had it, grew up on 2 stroke dirtbikes
rm80/rm125/pe400/rm465
loved them all. my son rides a cr80 now and he loves it
argue till your fingers get typers cramp lol
its america, ride what you want
respect others choices because if we all rode the same thing
no one would stand out. clones
put on your lid and ride.

csr250r

10-04-2006, 06:54 PM

i respect the new 450s but they never had to earn their spot. the ppl that own them make it sound like all the pros switched to them because they liked them better and just all out switched, when the truth is the 250rs were pushed out by the EPA. i watched the last Ironman that the 250rs were able to race and there were 5 250rs and they placed 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and i cant remeber what the other 2 got but it was top ten. i love riding 2 strokes wether it be my polaris xc700 or my 250r, when i get on a 4 stroke its just not as fun. Power...2 strokes just spin up so fast they cant hook up as well. thats y wen you get a banshee on asphalt you dont compete with them unless you are on another banshee or a lt500. "4 strokes have a smooth powerband..." -were the hell is the rush in that. i love costing up to a big hill in 5th on my 250r hitting the gas and watching my friends on 4strokes try to get out of the path of my roost. i know dirtbike guys are switching to the 450s and that is plenty fine with me, but i am sick and tired of all these cokey ppl on their 450s that think they are so badass because they have the same quad john natalie has. Any way you look at it a 20-year-old machine that can easily compete, and easily beat brand new machines is phanominal. 4 stroke guys say "ya but they had 20 year head start in mods" ya but 20 years ago look at the technology and look at the technology today, we can easily do better things for mods in a few years now days than we could all those other years. the manufatures got to do a hell of alot better to sell me on 4 strokes.

10-04-2006, 07:11 PM

csr250r told it the way it is!

iamjasyn

10-04-2006, 07:40 PM

Here's a picture of our cylinders and head in case you want to get jealous at how simple a motor can be and still make more power with less cc's than your trendy, overpriced, glamour dog. lol

sandmanblue

10-05-2006, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by guggi102
No no no people do not race more 4 stroke because they are superior. its a riding style difference. I hate to tell you but I bet you cant ride a 2-stroke worth a hoot, but maybe a 4-stroke you can. 4-strokes are much easier to run quick on but people who UNDERSTAND how to ride a 2-stroke can be just as fast or faster.

I hate to tell YOU, but I grew up actually RACING 125 class mx. Shows you how much YOU know about me. Idiot.

You other guys are smoking crack. EPA? Pro riders "had" to ride the thumpers?

Hmmm, seems like 90% of Pro AMA riders switched over to thumpers while they could still ride 2 strokes. It was because they are BETTER riders and FASTER riders on the 4 strokes. You can't rewrite history boys. The EPA doesn't have squat to say about closed course competition. They have not outlawed jack. If they have, then can you explain why 2 strokes can still be purchased off the showroom floor and raced?

You guys are OBVIOUSLY MUCH BETTER riders than the Pros... They can't ride a 2 stroke at all, and YOU could do MUCH better on a 2 stroke. :rolleyes:

This is pointless. If you people ever get around to really racing your quads, let us all know how well you did against the thumpers - until then, all this internet babble that is being thrown out is proving nothing. Except for maybe that you don't know what the heck you're talking about...

walsh450rHonda

10-05-2006, 10:16 AM

I must say you guys are a funny bunch. A very biased crowd in this forum. This is like Chevy vs Ford. No amount of argument will convince the other side. Just let it go and enjoy what you like to ride. If you have any doubts about what works best on a track just reference concrete factual numbers like lap times ect.....I know at all the local tracks all the fastest lap times are held by 4stroke race bikes. This is not by accident. Now you can post a bunch of you hate 2stroke replies........you epa lap dog......you spend x....amount of dollars of waste...........Keep up the good idiot comments......................take you lame *** out to a track and humilate yourself.............it will be good for your soul. Really though enjoy rideing ATVs just don't hate on what others enjoy. Who made you King F*CK.

Burl Swift

10-05-2006, 10:38 AM

Who care about any of this anyway? 250R's have won races and 450R's have won races. They're both great bikes, anyone who argues that one bike is inferior to the other is biased, plain and simple.

Both bikes have strong points, both bikes have weak points. I'd love to see a 450R hit the HP #'s of a 250R, and likewise I'd like to see a 250R hit the torque #'s of a 450R.

I love my 450R, and nothing the 2 stroke guys say can change that. And I hope that the 2 stroke guys love their 250R's, and that nothing the 4 stroke guys can change that.

I bet none of you guys say jack about either bikes when you're riding along side them. Thats what this is all about isn't it, riding. I love the smell of 2 stroke, and love the sound of a thumper, and love riding with my friends who have Yamaha's, Kawi's, Zuk's, Cannondales, 2 strokes, and 4 strokes.

Just get over what "you" think is better and enjoy what you have.

guggi102

10-05-2006, 05:23 PM

sandmanblue- Wow your a regular AMA pro yourself! After being a bike tech for 8 years, and having a great friend who is on the verge of breaking into the pro class on a yz250 2-stroke, and not caring what you rode in makes me pretty sure I'm not an idiot. Grow the hell up I didnt get on here to name call with you. By the way I run southwick and have beat many a 4-stroke and grew up in racing as did you so your not one step up even though you dream to be.

guggi102

10-05-2006, 05:25 PM

Also EPA has alot to do with it. Pro riders knowing 2 stroke will be outlawed in the following years wanted to get head starts on riding thme to improve their riding skills from machine to machine.

csr250r

10-05-2006, 09:30 PM

sandman...i know im never gona change anyones mind but seriously if u had a 250r you would be on the 2 stroke side, the EPA had everything to do with 250rs being outlawed on race tracks. i think most of you ppl have forgotten why Honda had to quit making the 250r...ill refresh ur memory, honda had to quit making it because of the lawsuits against it because it was too powerful. i HIGHLY doubt that they will ever have to quit making the 450s because of that. I know that in bikes 450s r faster on the track... they have more torqe so they are better for motocross. i get sick to my stomach when i pic up a dirtwheels anymore because 2 strokes are dissapearing, they arnt being made anymore so the manufactures arnt dumping in money on adds for them. but just because they are not in dirtwheels doesnt mean that they cant run with the 4 strokes. go to a drag, tt, or hillclimb or any-other event that requires horsepower and you will find some 2 strokes on top. i know im a 14 year old kid so this prolly wont mean much to 40-year old ppl like urself but whatever. 2 strokes are fast, cheap, and light. if u think otherwise u are an idiot.

450rJam

10-06-2006, 04:41 AM

zuki made the lt250r until 92.........why did honda stop 250r three years earlier ?
the lt250r had as much if not more power as the 250r
(just not the geometry for incredable handling)

csr250r

10-06-2006, 08:11 AM

dude i dont know. maybe zuki was trying to cash out all they can on someone elses design like they always do. maybe the lawsuits were more after honda.

outlaw450r

10-06-2006, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by csr250r
sandman...i know im never gona change anyones mind but seriously if u had a 250r you would be on the 2 stroke side, the EPA had everything to do with 250rs being outlawed on race tracks. i think most of you ppl have forgotten why Honda had to quit making the 250r...ill refresh ur memory, honda had to quit making it because of the lawsuits against it because it was too powerful. i HIGHLY doubt that they will ever have to quit making the 450s because of that. I know that in bikes 450s r faster on the track... they have more torqe so they are better for motocross. i get sick to my stomach when i pic up a dirtwheels anymore because 2 strokes are dissapearing, they arnt being made anymore so the manufactures arnt dumping in money on adds for them. but just because they are not in dirtwheels doesnt mean that they cant run with the 4 strokes. go to a drag, tt, or hillclimb or any-other event that requires horsepower and you will find some 2 strokes on top. i know im a 14 year old kid so this prolly wont mean much to 40-year old ppl like urself but whatever. 2 strokes are fast, cheap, and light. if u think otherwise u are an idiot.
Are you saying people only get hurt on 2 pokes

10-06-2006, 04:42 PM

wow....no hes not saying that people only get hurt on pingers....back in the late 80s a ton of people got hurt and sued honda, yamaha, suzuki and kawaski... yamaha was the only company that had a pair, even when the banshee and blasters sales were almost unprofitable in the 93-97 era....if people didnt sue honda for getting hurt on the 250R then it would be even more advanced then what it was and could of been produced all those years like the banshee and blaster was...and a good thing to think about is all those people that were in their 20s or teens during the mid-late 1980s...what ddid they grow up riding? what experience did they have?? a ATC 70?? there wasnt any "high performance" quads before then...

I even knew a guy that went out on his brand new banshee and literally died on it...and its not the ATVs fault, its the lack of experience of the rider...

sandmanblue

10-08-2006, 10:44 AM

"Also EPA has alot to do with it. Pro riders knowing 2 stroke will be outlawed in the following years wanted to get head starts on riding thme to improve their riding skills from machine to machine."

EPA? No. AMA rule changing - yes. The EPA has not and is not outlawing 2-strokes. They are available now and for 2007. They are available in many other forms as well - outboard motors, chainsaws, mx bikes...

So, how is it that the EPA had ANYTHING to do with 2 strokes? "the EPA had everything to do with 250rs being outlawed on race tracks" - so you're saying that the EPA outlawed 2 strokes, but only from Honda and only quads... hmmm... There wasn't ANY laws banning 2 strokes. 3 wheelers - yes. 2 strokes. No.

I don't know how many of you here were even riding during the mid '80's and remember the whole story. 3 wheelers were banned starting in '88. I owned an '87 200X along with two CR's at that time. Honda pulled it's high performance quads off the market starting in '90 in order to fend off lawsuits against the company that were being brought up by irresponsible parents that let their inexperienced 12 year olds ride 250R 3 wheelers with no helmet. Honda was protecting itself. EPA had nothing to do with any of this...

"if u had a 250r you would be on the 2 stroke side" uhhh, I owned many 250's including a highly modified 250R. The 450 is a better racer as evidenced by the number of 450's winning races and the 250's not. It's not an issue of me "being on one side". Just because my last ride was a CR250, does that mean I am on the 2 wheelers/2 strokers side?

" 2 strokes are fast, cheap, and light. if u think otherwise u are an idiot." I never said they were not. I said that the 450 is a better race quad...

Guggi - you punched first. Tried to insinuate that I didn't have 2 stroke experience - which was way off base. I called your comment as bs and told you you didn't know me at all - which you don't. I punched back and called you an idiot, which was out of line. You now apparently say I am a dreamer and that you have "friend who is on the verge of breaking into the pro class on a yz250 2-stroke" that somehow qualifies your statements. On top of that, there seems to be some sort of challenge to race at Southwick - which you know very well is a hell of a long way from me. That's just dumb, and it will not prove anything about your knowledge on the subject at hand.

I should not have called you an idiot. that was not appropriate. A much better word is ignorant...

csr250r

10-08-2006, 04:59 PM

ya....i know that the 250r cant win races if its not in them. maybe go to a local flattrack, you will find some 250rs there to compare with the 450s unstead of reading all the magazine B.S. that manufactures pay them to say. maybe you havnt ridden a 250r in a long time and now that you are old any quad feels fast. its pathetic that the 250r even compares with the new 450s, when they have 20 year newer design design. i bet if they still made 250rs today and the epa allowed them to race in pro class the podium would be alot different than what it is now.

450rJam

10-08-2006, 05:26 PM

no stockers on the podium.........most are extreamly modded
the 250r is like a 69 camaro.........cool and always will be.
but it dont compair with modern tech.
sure if you modify the older ones they can be made to hang but then we sacrifice dependability and driveabilty.
I sold my 250r that I loved while I had it.................I just moved on
I dont miss it at all..........

sandmanblue

10-09-2006, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by csr250r
ya....i know that the 250r cant win races if its not in them. maybe go to a local flattrack, you will find some 250rs there to compare with the 450s unstead of reading all the magazine B.S. that manufactures pay them to say. maybe you havnt ridden a 250r in a long time and now that you are old any quad feels fast. its pathetic that the 250r even compares with the new 450s, when they have 20 year newer design design. i bet if they still made 250rs today and the epa allowed them to race in pro class the podium would be alot different than what it is now.

I gotta say, this really baffles me. In one sentence you say that the 250's can't compete because they don't race with the 450's, then ask me to go to a flattrack and watch 250's compete and in the next, you say that the EPA doesn't allow them to race. :ermm: ookkkaaayyyyyyyy........

Then, apparently, when someone gets older, any quad feels fast. That's baffling in itself because that would mean the 250 feels fast too. :ermm: So that's what you think you have to look forward to then? Man do you have a big surprise coming....

On top of that, you seem to have assumed that I only believe what the magazines say... When that hasn't been brought up at all. :rolleyes: Obviously, in the 30 years that I have been riding and building motors, I haven't learned anything... Whatever...

I don't think I have read such an illogical and self contradictory post in quite some time. Thanks for the entertainment.

I think I'm done. I should have known that with a topic like this, it would just turn into a demonstration of irrational and illogical thought.
:(

wilkin250r

10-09-2006, 12:35 PM

The way I see it, anybody that calls the 2-strokes "slow" is an idiot. They aren't slow. But I can certainly call 4-strokes slow.

I'll admit, you put them side-by-side on a track, and the 4-strokes will generally turn better lap times. But is that a test of speed, or is that a test of torque and traction? The 4-strokes are faster because they hook up better, and have a more friendly powerband that lets you put more attention to your lines rather than your clutch. And it's not like 2-strokes are all that far behind, maybe 2-5% longer lap times.

But that's only one type of riding. There are some arenas that the 4-strokes aren't even competative. Like sand drags. You take a 450r to a sand drag, and you may as well be riding a mini. You're just going to look silly. We aren't talking 2-5% slower, we're talking 30-50% slower. You'd probably turn better times on foot.

You can put a 2-stroke into the 4-stroke arena, and it's still competative, it's just not top dog. But you put a 4-stroke into the 2-stroke arena, and you may as well be riding a lawnmower.

10-09-2006, 02:09 PM

yeah, 2 strokes are hardly behind on the track, if any at all! but when you put a 4 stroke into a 2 stroke world like sand drags, they r horrible... 2 strokes are a better investment overall for the average person...2 stroke are the people's bikes...the people that cant spend 6-7 grand on a bike or quad (the majority of riders)

it wil be interesting to see if the 250Fs ahve to run with the real 250s next year in the amatures...lmao....now it might be a fair fight and we can so whos bike is acctually faster...

450rJam

10-09-2006, 03:09 PM

this post has gone full circle.....................from stupid back to stupid again..............
funny how 2 stroke riders act towards 4 stroke riders.........
there are not any posts in the 450r section called
"2 strokers are dead, so get over it"
good luck with your bitter world.
look for the negative in anything and you will find it.

10-09-2006, 06:20 PM

how do you figure 2 stroke r dead?

450rJam

10-09-2006, 07:53 PM

sorry, I'll type it really slow for you. lmao j/k
I didnt say they where dead, I said there are no
"4strokes are better than 2strokes" posts in the 450r section.
funny that this is one of the larger posts in this section.
I think bart simpson said it best.
"dont have a cow man"

I cant believe Im explaining this to you

iamjasyn

10-09-2006, 09:17 PM

4stroke guys. Some 2stroke guy points simply and rationally put (and don't think some of your posts aren't irrational either):
1) You have a new style motor. One that without the EPA push would not exist because it IS cheaper to manufacter 2strokes, I think we can agree there.
2) the new style motor is great for what you like - e.g. track racing. 4strokes excel at having a broad torque curve.
3) that sweet curve for the low cc's the 450 has, has a high reliability cost compared to what other small 4strokes have traditionally been used for (e.g. 650 enduro racing).
4) the new style motor is not as great for what 2stroke riders like - e.g. sand duning.
5) the epa has NOT forced 2strokes from racing. the epa HAS made it cost inefficient for manufacturers to sell them.
6) at least part of the pro class adoption of 4strokes is manufacturer sponsorship.
7) cc per cc 2strokes have a peak HP advantage for less money. Not a matter of opinion.
8) even a large nascar motor puts out tons of HP and that is fine. However 2stroke guys don't want to pay the bill for that 4stroke because we like 2stroke feel better anyway.
9) even today's 4strokes will not meet the next epa deadline. The next generation 4stroke will be even more expensive. You will pay even more than you are now to buy something new.
10) last but not least, all the above points make us pissed when we hear that 2strokes are outdated or some other illogical, biased comment.

Enjoy that motor. If the two platforms did not each have a strong following this thread wouldn't be here. Personally, I'll always poke the ribs of 4stroke guys for buying that money pit :) And they'll be poking mine when I can't buy parts anymore... But in the meantime watch out for my thick a** roost and see ya at the top of the hill!

10-10-2006, 05:41 AM

i wasnt just talking to you...othe rpeople have often said 2 strokes are dead, i just want to hear their explaination....

bwamos

10-10-2006, 06:49 AM

Originally posted by iamjasyn
5) the epa has NOT forced 2strokes from racing. the epa HAS made it cost inefficient for manufacturers to sell them.
6) at least part of the pro class adoption of 4strokes is manufacturer sponsorship.

The reason they are not on the tracks is because the racing organizations wanted factory sponsors. In order to garauntee factory involvment they had to require "factory frames" in order to remove the full aftermarket framed 250r's from the track. Also known as the "pro production class".

You are correct. But the factory sponsership isn't the reason they are gone. The process of "aquiring" of factory sponsors is why they are gone.

MET

10-10-2006, 01:24 PM

I build both types of engines. IMO 4 strokes are easier on the rider aside from the weight,and they are costly to repair,and no its not true that a race 4 stroke will last longer then a 2 stroke,they have similar maintenance schedules when highly modded.

Did you all know AMA is allowng 2 stroke 125's to increase the bore size to equal 144cc for next season. We'll let you figure out why!!

This is legal for amatuers only!!

iamjasyn

10-10-2006, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by Honda86
i wasnt just talking to you...othe rpeople have often said 2 strokes are dead, i just want to hear their explaination....
No, my comment wasn't made toward you. You genuinely hear it from people who I think want to think that their choice, the 4stroke choice is the best. There obviously is some info they're missing.

csr250r

10-10-2006, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by sandmanblue
I gotta say, this really baffles me. In one sentence you say that the 250's can't compete because they don't race with the 450's, then ask me to go to a flattrack and watch 250's compete and in the next, you say that the EPA doesn't allow them to race. :ermm: ookkkaaayyyyyyyy........

Then, apparently, when someone gets older, any quad feels fast. That's baffling in itself because that would mean the 250 feels fast too. :ermm: So that's what you think you have to look forward to then? Man do you have a big surprise coming....

On top of that, you seem to have assumed that I only believe what the magazines say... When that hasn't been brought up at all. :rolleyes: Obviously, in the 30 years that I have been riding and building motors, I haven't learned anything... Whatever...

I don't think I have read such an illogical and self contradictory post in quite some time. Thanks for the entertainment.

I think I'm done. I should have known that with a topic like this, it would just turn into a demonstration of irrational and illogical thought.
:(

ok i am sick of putting it sugar coated for u grandpa, so hear it goes: when i said that that EPA banned 2 strokes from racing i was talking about GNC and GNCC racing. now i know i might have to repeat that for you but maybe if u put on ur reading glasses and reread it again you might get it.

" That's baffling in itself because that would mean the 250 feels fast too" have you ever ridden a 250r...i know you say you did but if you did that comment would make no sence if you did. have you ever ridden a polaris predator? well i have and the WASTE 450s anywhere but on a track. i have not been able to put my 250r up against my friends pred yet because its broke at the moment but a 250r feels a hell of alot faster than a pred or a yfz, i have not ridden the 450r but i hear that the yfz is faster.

"On top of that, you seem to have assumed that I only believe what the magazines say... When that hasn't been brought up at all. :rolleyes: Obviously, in the 30 years that I have been riding and building motors, I haven't learned anything... Whatever..."

i am perticularly reffering to the bs article in either quad or atv sport about the textra tech 330r vs the stocker ltr450 when the guy from textra admited that their was something wrong with the R that day and the magazine failed to mention that.

the new 450 is nice but all you alot of ppl think that the pros chose to go with them when they were pushed out. and yes some had switched over by the last race they were allowed because they wanted to get the feel for them. the 250r is not dead. in fact it is a hell of alot more fun to ride than 450s, (i know it might be hard for ppl like sandman to control the burst of power anymore than it was when they were back in the golden days:blah: )

sandmanblue

10-11-2006, 11:48 AM

Chase - what are you smoking? Here you go again...

"EPA banned 2 strokes from racing i was talking about GNC and GNCC" - So let me get THIS straight. You think the EPA has apparently banned 2 strokes from only GNC and GNCC racing events, but it has not done so for ALL the others? C'mon, show some logic here.

If you still maintain that opinion, you now need to prove how smart you are and show a link to the EPA website where it shows that they banned 2 strokes.

WHEN you can't find it, not IF, I expect you to step up and be a man and admit that you were wrong. I would happily do the same if I was proven wrong - in a new thread, publically stating that you know more than me. Time for you to learn a lesson...

Now it gets fun...

"have you ever ridden a 250r" - see my sig... It includes a 250R... So actually, I've owned one and ridden more than that. Your point would be???????

"have you ever ridden a polaris predator? well i have and the WASTE 450s" - ???? Yeah, and monkeys might fly out of my arse.... Another topic entirely. I'm not going there since you don't own one...

AND MY FAV... things you have said.

"i have not ridden the 450r but i hear that the yfz is faster"

"the 250r is not dead. in fact it is a hell of alot more fun to ride than 450s"

So, apparently you haven't ridden any 450's, but yet you feel qualified to compare it to a 250R. Well then. That says it all doesn't it. You obviously have loads of experience and knowledge... NOT...

C'mon Chase. I'm anxiously waiting to see a link to the EPA.gov website that proves your ultimate wisdom and how stupid us "grampas" really are... Put up or shut up time boy... Until then, back to school you go...

csr250r

10-11-2006, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by sandmanblue
Chase - what are you smoking? Here you go again...

"EPA banned 2 strokes from racing i was talking about GNC and GNCC" - So let me get THIS straight. You think the EPA has apparently banned 2 strokes from only GNC and GNCC racing events, but it has not done so for ALL the others? C'mon, show some logic here.

If you still maintain that opinion, you now need to prove how smart you are and show a link to the EPA website where it shows that they banned 2 strokes.

WHEN you can't find it, not IF, I expect you to step up and be a man and admit that you were wrong. I would happily do the same if I was proven wrong - in a new thread, publically stating that you know more than me. Time for you to learn a lesson...

Now it gets fun...

"have you ever ridden a 250r" - see my sig... It includes a 250R... So actually, I've owned one and ridden more than that. Your point would be???????

"have you ever ridden a polaris predator? well i have and the WASTE 450s" - ???? Yeah, and monkeys might fly out of my arse.... Another topic entirely. I'm not going there since you don't own one...

AND MY FAV... things you have said.

"i have not ridden the 450r but i hear that the yfz is faster"

"the 250r is not dead. in fact it is a hell of alot more fun to ride than 450s"

So, apparently you haven't ridden any 450's, but yet you feel qualified to compare it to a 250R. Well then. That says it all doesn't it. You obviously have loads of experience and knowledge... NOT...

C'mon Chase. I'm anxiously waiting to see a link to the EPA.gov website that proves your ultimate wisdom and how stupid us "grampas" really are... Put up or shut up time boy... Until then, back to school you go...

dude are u f**king retarded or do you just not know how to read. i have rode a YFZ 450 I REPEAT I HAVE RODE A YFZ 450 as i stated before in my other post. I NEVER SAID THAT THE EPA BANNED 2 STROKES! i said that they banned them from GNC and GNCC racing. quit twisting what i say in my posts.

the epa is a part of the reason that in open GNC and GNCC racing two strokes are not allowed. i have a link to 2 stroke atv regulations from the EPA that i will post in my next post

OMG you are a 42...that makes you smarter than anyone younger than u... dude u cant even read right, i maybe 14 but i have 3 snowmobiles and a 250r that i bought on my own and i had a 240 yamaha blaster that i did all the motor mods except boring myself. you might know more but i know quite a bit for my age. i think you would be surpriesed

yes a predator will waste any 450 quad stock for stock in a drag, so maybe you better get ready for those monkeys to fly out ur @$$.

two strokes were booted out of pro am GNC and GNCC racing and put in a seperate class the 2 stroke a/b. that is what im trying to explain to you. i am pretty sure that the EPA had something to do with it because that is the way i took it when i watched the last "IRONMAN" GNCC race that 2 strokes were allowed in.

csr250r

10-11-2006, 05:55 PM

my links wont work so go to this:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=EPA+regulations+on+2+strokes&btnG=Google+Search

and click on Regulatory announcment. i think it is 3rd one down. i will copy and paste it into my post:

'Why is EPA looking at new emission controls for ATVs?'

Our analysis shows that ATVs emit more than 381,000 tons of hydrocarbons (HC), 1,860,000 tons of carbon monoxide (CO), and 11,000 tons of oxides of nitrogen (NOx) each year across the United States. These emissions help form smog and contain toxic compounds such as benzene, so reducing them would benefit our health and environment. The Clean Air Act requires us to set emission standards that address these problems.

'Must the ATV I own meet these regulations?'

No. ATV manufacturers must ensure each new ATV sold meets our regulations. The proposed regulations would apply only to new ATVs produced after a specified model year. Anything manufactured before that model year would not be affected and would remain legal to own and operate. We usually allow several years of lead time between publication of a final rule and the effective date of new standards. Thus, new standards for ATVs won't affect the ATV you bought before this year or any ATV you buy for the next several years.

'What kind of emission controls is EPA considering?'

We are proposing standards that manufacturers would meet on an average basis, which may encourage manufacturers to use a broader array of technologies across their product line. We don't specify what emission controls manufacturers must use to comply with the regulations, but we anticipate many manufacturers will choose to meet them by using four-stroke engines instead of two-stroke engines. Some manufacturers may also slightly change the air-fuel mixture. Others may decide to use a technology such as advanced fuel injection or catalytic converters on some models to meet regulations.

'Will these regulations affect where I can ride my ATV?'

No. The proposed regulations don’t restrict your use. They cover only the exhaust emissions from your new ATV.

'Will EPA publish noise regulations?'

We are not proposing any new noise regulations. Most ATV manufacturers design ATVs that already meet noise standards for off-highway motorcycles. But we do ask for comment on whether we should establish separate noise standards for ATVs.
.................................................. .................................................. .............................
Must the off-highway motorcycle I own meet these regulations?

No. Off-highway motorcycle manufacturers must ensure each new off-highway motorcycle sold meets our regulations. The proposed regulations would apply only to new off-highway motorcycles produced after a specified model year. Anything manufactured before that model year would not be affected and would remain legal to own and operate. We usually allow several years of lead time between publication of a final rule and the effective date of new standards. Thus, new standards for off-highway motorcycles won't affect the off-highway motorcycle you bought before this year or any off-highway motorcycle you buy for the next several years.

What kind of emission controls is EPA considering?

We are proposing standards that manufacturers would meet on an average basis, which may encourage manufacturers to use a broader array of technologies across their product line. We don't specify what emission controls manufacturers must use to comply with the regulations, but we anticipate many manufacturers will choose to meet them by using four-stroke engines instead of two-stroke engines. Some manufacturers may also slightly change the air-fuel mixture. Others may decide to use a technology such as advanced fuel injection or catalytic converters on some models to meet regulations.

Is EPA regulating competition motorcycles?

No. The Clean Air Act excludes from emissions control programs vehicles used solely for competition. We recognize that organized amateur off-highway motorcycle competition is popular around the country. We are proposing provisions that will allow manufacturers to make and sell competition motorcycles that do not meet emissions requirements. Also, riders may modify off-highway motorcycles that are used solely for competition.
.................................................. .................................................. .............................

Must the snowmobile I own meet these regulations?

No. Snowmobile manufacturers must ensure each new snowmobile sold meets our regulations. The proposed regulations would apply only to new snowmobiles produced after a specified model year. Anything manufactured before that model year would not be affected and would remain legal to own and operate. We usually allow several years of lead time between publication of a final rule and the effective date of new standards. Thus, new standards for snowmobiles won’t affect the snowmobile you bought before this year or any snowmobile you buy for the next several years.

What kinds of emission controls is EPA considering?

We are proposing standards that manufacturers would meet on an average basis, which will allow them to offer a wide range of technologies to their customers. We expect manufacturers to meet emission standards mainly by improving engine and fuel systems for some models. Some manufacturers will likely use direct fuel injection with some of their two-stroke engines, much like the latest models of personal watercraft and outboard engines. We also expect manufacturers to increase the number of snowmobiles that use four-stroke engines.

Will these regulations affect where I can ride my snowmobile?

No. The proposed regulations don't restrict your use. They cover only the exhaust emissions from your new snowmobile.

Will there be noise regulations?

We are not proposing any noise regulations. Most snowmobile manufacturers design snowmobiles that already meet voluntary noise standards for snowmobiles. But we do ask for comment on whether we should establish mandatory noise standards.

These answers came from the EPA themselves.

450rJam

10-11-2006, 07:29 PM

ok you win.................anyone who will type that much lol
im not even going to read all that crap.

csr250r

10-11-2006, 07:33 PM

lol...anyway i dont have anything against the 450r...if there were only 4 strokes i would have 1 sitting in my barn right now. they are a great machine and the next best thing (for me) than my 250.

sandmanblue

10-12-2006, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by csr250r
lol...anyway i dont have anything against the 450r...if there were only 4 strokes i would have 1 sitting in my barn right now. they are a great machine and the next best thing (for me) than my 250.

Okay Chase - I'll be waiting for your public apology - if you're man enough that is - which I doubt...

You posted these yourself. I didn't put any words into your mouth. They are in complete contradiction and you have proven my point all by yourself. You don't know what you are talking about...

"when i said that that EPA banned 2 strokes from racing i was talking about GNC and GNCC racing"

and the contradiction...

"I NEVER SAID THAT THE EPA BANNED 2 STROKES! i said that they banned them from GNC and GNCC racing"

another contradiction...

"the epa is a part of the reason that in open GNC and GNCC racing two strokes are not allowed"

and now some sort of squirming and backing away from the above by now saying....

"two strokes were booted out of pro am GNC and GNCC racing and put in a seperate class the 2 stroke a/b. that is what im trying to explain to you. i am pretty sure that the EPA had something to do with it "

and of course - the biggie...

"Is EPA regulating competition motorcycles?

No. The Clean Air Act excludes from emissions control programs vehicles used solely for competition. We recognize that organized amateur off-highway motorcycle competition is popular around the country. We are proposing provisions that will allow manufacturers to make and sell competition motorcycles that do not meet emissions requirements. Also, riders may modify off-highway motorcycles that are used solely for competition."

If you somehow - and I expect you to try to - say that you were right and that somehow what you have said and posted proves it - I give up. You're in serious need of education. You have no clue, you talk in circles, you post contradictions and you have absolutely NO backing from outside sources to prove your point.

Now that you've made a complete fool out of yourself - are you happy??? :p

10-12-2006, 09:42 AM

sandman, aren't you the one that made that thread about how gorwn up you are? and then you turn around and call people names on different threads??? i guess it take a hypocrite to know one huh? :p

sandmanblue

10-12-2006, 02:40 PM

Honda86 - I've used the words ignorant and idiot. Please excuse my terribly offensive use of these words and the fact that they were used to accurately describe the behavior of other members of these forums. I gladly apologize for using those terms. I will use more descriptive terms in the future. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

Now in order to apply that same standard to all the other members here, I expect you to find all the other posts from members that used profanity or called other people names, and post the exact same thing as you did above. If you are unwilling to do so, then you've shown your bias and will be ignored from this point on.

If you'd like to return to the topic, fine. If you wish to continue to make lame attempts to discredit my posts, then you're wasting your time...

iamjasyn

10-12-2006, 04:54 PM

Dang... so emotional about this. I am too though, so I'm in good company.

For everyone's record the EPA is not in the business of running other businesses. The EPA is in the business of setting standards and rules and then other businesses do what they want to comply.

Here is where the confusion about your spat is, I believe. Homie says the EPA forced two strokes from GNC and GNCC racing. The EPA and the 4stroke man says BS. The EPA did not directly force them out, but you may say that the indirectly did. Here is why I think that. Manufacturers want to sell you bikes for Non-competitive use. True? Yes. So if they sponsor RacerX on a 2stroke but JoeX has to buy a 4stroke, then that doesn't speak too highly or help sales of their consumer product does it??

Come on guys, stop arguing about details. If you look at it objectively, it's not hard to see what is going on between EPA, manufactuer and consumer. Like I said before I'm glad you dig your highly strung 4stroke. I bet riding on top of a nuclear missile would be fun for a little while too. :)

csr250r

10-12-2006, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by sandmanblue
Okay Chase - I'll be waiting for your public apology - if you're man enough that is - which I doubt...

You posted these yourself. I didn't put any words into your mouth. They are in complete contradiction and you have proven my point all by yourself. You don't know what you are talking about...

"when i said that that EPA banned 2 strokes from racing i was talking about GNC and GNCC racing"

and the contradiction...

"I NEVER SAID THAT THE EPA BANNED 2 STROKES! i said that they banned them from GNC and GNCC racing"

another contradiction...

"the epa is a part of the reason that in open GNC and GNCC racing two strokes are not allowed"

and now some sort of squirming and backing away from the above by now saying....

"two strokes were booted out of pro am GNC and GNCC racing and put in a seperate class the 2 stroke a/b. that is what im trying to explain to you. i am pretty sure that the EPA had something to do with it "

and of course - the biggie...

"Is EPA regulating competition motorcycles?

No. The Clean Air Act excludes from emissions control programs vehicles used solely for competition. We recognize that organized amateur off-highway motorcycle competition is popular around the country. We are proposing provisions that will allow manufacturers to make and sell competition motorcycles that do not meet emissions requirements. Also, riders may modify off-highway motorcycles that are used solely for competition."

If you somehow - and I expect you to try to - say that you were right and that somehow what you have said and posted proves it - I give up. You're in serious need of education. You have no clue, you talk in circles, you post contradictions and you have absolutely NO backing from outside sources to prove your point.

Now that you've made a complete fool out of yourself - are you happy??? :p

grampy sandman... directly or indirectly the EPA had some push in the reasone top pros cant race 2 strokes. you know i am right. and you did not make a fool of me...you are making yourself look like an old retarded ***.

Publicly apologize... thats almost as funny as you being a illiterate grandpappy. I stand behind what i said. no proof did you not read the EPA statement....

the EPA has different emmisions on competion motorcycles than competion atvs. if your head wasnt up ur anus so far you might be able to understand that.:macho

sandmanblue

10-13-2006, 08:59 AM

That's what I expected. A childish response. Big surprise.

No ability to show ANYTHING that states the EPA banned atv's. WHERE IS IT??? SHOW ME!!!!!! :confused:

No willingness to admit that you were wrong and cannot show ANYTHING that states the EPA banned 2 strokes from GNC and GNCC racing. THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID...

So, you resort to name calling - a typical childish response. :rolleyes:

That's all you got left? Name calling? No facts, no proof? Calling me old isn't an insult. Frankly, I'd rather be 42 than 14... And I bet you think a lot about how great it is to be older anyway, so save the grandpa comments - they are useless.

You think I can't read? Hmmm. Seems like you didn't even read your own post. Since YOU and SOOOO smart, why don't you copy and paste the section of your "EPA post" above and show us stupid old folks where is says the words "EPA, BANNED, 2-STROKES and GNC/GNCC".

C'MON CHASE! DO IT! WHERE IS IT?

You can't, because it's not there. Like I said before. WHEN you can't prove it....

I'm done with you kid. There's no point in discussing this any further.

You've set a new record for the most ridiculous posts by any person that I have ever seen. My 7 year old daughter makes more sense than you....

Bye-bye. Say what you want now. Continue the flames and have the last word. I really don't care anymore LOL. It's a joke that this went so far. I have better things to do that this. Apparently YOU don't...