250rs Forever 450s eat your heart out.

id take youth over anything in the world, and ill change that to "i know" your the most childish 42 year old on this forum :D

[bwamos]

Stock frame regulations are why 2-strokes are not in the Pro Production classes.



This class is a Production class, and requires an OEM motor and matching frame combination ATV. Engine size is limited to 0-525cc. Engine modifications, frame reinforcements and frame modifications to permit longer rear-wheel travel are permitted. Fuel tanks are limited to a 4-gallon maximum capacity. Riders can replace and modify all other components. Engines can be 4-stroke or 2-stroke.

Aka.. the reason 250r's aren't racing is because they cant use the stronger chromoly frames or aftermarket frames of any kind and Honda no longer manufacturers stock 250r Frames. Once that rule went in Honda stopped manufacturing the frames so they could sell their new up coming quads. ;)

So, they can not run 250r's because they can't get frames.

Banshees they "could run" but they're just not a good Pro level racer for MX, XC. It's a duner (geometry).

There's EXACTLY why they aren't running 2-strokes anymore.

The EPA is the reason they aren't manufacturing 2-strokes anymore. Not the reason we arent racing them. (However it is linked, because if they could meet emmissions, they'd make them, so we'd be racing them. It's a viscious cycle.


IMHO the newer 4-strokes are definatly better for XC. (Opinion of course). But, the fully framed/modded 265r's would still rule the MX & SX courses IMHO.

bwamos<<<< great post

[sandmanblue]

Brandon - thanks for clearing that up. It's nice to see some real facts finally...

[R450HQ]

I see you guys arguing 250 vs 450f, and 125 vs 250f.

Of course the 4strokes have an advantage when set up like that, luckily this new rule coming out will put 2 stroke 250s and four stroke 250s in the same class. making it fair.

IMO racing 125 vs 250f id bs, I know a 2 stroke fires every revolution but theres so many factors... and obviosuly the 250f smokes it.

yeah the new 250 vs 250f rule is sweet....i cant wait to go to the track next year :p

[iamjasyn]

Originally posted by Honda86
yeah the new 250 vs 250f rule is sweet....i cant wait to go to the track next year :p

That ought be interesting. In the 70's Honda tried to sucessfully compete cc per cc with a 4stroke against yamaha and suzuki's 2strokes with some experimental design, trying to compete. After failing the CR250 was born - just like 2 years after they publically annourced they would stick to 4strokes.

yeah, im all for the fair fight rule...i know alot of 250f riders are mad about it though....i realy hated it the past couple of years when people were talking about their 250 and its some 4 stroke :rolleyes:

[DirtDevilBT]

BUMP, more than 13 days old! Need more arguing. BUMP

lol, why the hell not, this thread is so dam.n long no one can read all of it from the beginning. R si an R is an R is an R. Same old bla bla bla bla. Pirate says what? RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR250r
450r
250r
450r

BLA Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla


bla bla

bla bla bla bla bla bla

lol

bump

bla bla

250r
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[mB2]

I JUST READ IT ALL BEGINNING TO END!

WHEW!

[iamjasyn]

Lifted this from world.honda.com... in case you somehow thought a 4stroke by itself is somehow a better racing engine. Even with all their huge money pumped into marketing and sponsorship that they still missed their 2002 deadline by 4 years. 2007 will be the last model year you can buy the CR.

Motorcycles
To achieve the cleaner emissions and higher fuel economy targets it announced for motorcycles in 1999, Honda began as early as 1997 to take measures to discontinue the use of 2-stroke engines by the end of fiscal 2002. These simply structured 2-stroke engines had been adopted mainly in small motorcycles because of their superior output. Our goal was to replace them with more environment-friendly 4-stroke engine technology.

there will be 08 Cr and Yz's but it is really dumb with all these tree huggers trying to take away all the 2 strokes....2 stroke quads and dirt bike wouldnt do any damage to the rest of the world...it just stupid....ill be riding 2 strokes untill i am out for the final sleep....theres nothin wrong with mixing oil and gas :p

[iamjasyn]

No, I don't think you will be able to. They made a 150F or something apparently. Check this page out:
Honda discontinuing 2strokes (http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=372516)

[alex guedea]

To paraphrase Charlton Heston (Moses), leader of the NRA:

"you can have my 2-stroke when you pry it from my dead cold hands"

i dont know when that was released....ddi you hear about allt he rule changes they made? i could really screw up hondas sales....KTMs brand new 125 and 250 are awsome pingers....they say the new KTM 144 is really gonna give the 4 stroke a run 4 their money...plus if you have all 2 stroke or all 4 stroke in any sport, it wont make it grow as fast as 2 stroke vs 4 stroke...ya know what im sayin? plus AMA wants a mix of pingers and thumpers....i know 2 stroke bikes will still be around...and the 2 stroke sled (my true love) are hotter then ever with the brand new 145 HP 800s coming out and new technology...its just for whatever reaosn they dotn bother to use that new technology in bikes (besides KTM) and quads

[iamjasyn]

No I haven't heard that. I don't follow racing closely honestly. I'm a hard core Glamis/Imperial dunes rider though. Honda was kind of late getting into 2strokes I hear and they're the first out too looks like. They traditionally have been a 4stroke company anyway; ironically they made the best 2stroke quad ever made. F**k em though. I know what you're saying though. 2strokes bikes are cheaper and for track racing they're still legal to manufacture. I've heard the cost of 4strokes are making amatures quit racing after dealing with too many expensive issues with the 450. If the AMA wants to keep racing alive, they better encourage racing bikes that don't require complex FI four stroke EPA machines.

just fyiworld.honda.com (http://world.honda.com/environment/2006report/04010000.html)

[iamjasyn]

Read this too while you're wondering if you want to race a 4stroke:
4stroke maintenance (http://www.lasleeve.com/galleries/2-vs-4-cost/DirtBike606-p102-104-lores.pdf)

[TheBlasterMan]

horsepower sells bikes, tourqe wins races, enough said:macho

depends on what kind of track and race....

[iamjasyn]

250r4life posted this.. I did a basic conversion from kw to hp and this 250 2stroke makes 90.72hp. That will NEVER happen with a 250 4stroke. So just when you're reading dirt wheels and your favorite rider is blasting along on his free 450, remember that 2strokes are still the king of high hp small engines. :)
250cc gp bike (http://world.honda.com/HRC/products/rs250r/index.html)

[sandmanblue]

Do any of you realize that this thread has ZERO stock bore 250R dyno runs in it. Not one. Closest thing is the 265 PV dyno at a whopping 43 hp... Even the 266 motor didn't crack the 50 hp mark...

I can't find a single stock bore 250 dyno run in the entire dyno section. I wonder why? It must be hiding under a blanket in fear... :D

So instead of any proof on the dyno, what we have here is a bunch of senseless, unverifiable babble. :rolleyes: Seems to be a common occurence here. Lots of bench racing - no real evidence.

So continue on boys. Don't let your inferiority complex stifle your replies. Go on with your tough talk about the great and wonderful 250R. It's just too much fun to read.

:blah:

[sandmanblue]

Thought I'd help you 250r guys out with stuff from www.gtthunder.com

See below.

[sandmanblue]

250cc

[sandmanblue]

more

[sandmanblue]

more still

[sandmanblue]

and more

[sandmanblue]

yet even more

[sandmanblue]

Now a trx500r 2 smoker

[sandmanblue]

same dyno - different printout. yfz450 with pipe and cam mod. Airbox off and rejetted properly...

[86350x]

Wow, this debate has been going on for almost a year now. I thought its been a while since I was last on. Guess it has been.

sandman....do you dare compare a banshee or LT500 to your lil 450 :D...i wonder why the 450s havnt been able to break the 65 or 70 hp mark?? the "old and outdated" Lt 500s and banshees do it all day long with no problem what so ever....everyone knows the 250r was the weakest 250 2 stroke quad made, its just the handling is what made up for it...and isnt that funny how the 450s try to copy the 250rs geometry? now put your lil 450 up agenst the stronger 2 strokes :p

also the most modified 450s cannot compete with the top notch Rs...funny huh?

my banshee is a 350, and yes it walks away from so many 450s and 700s its funny...hell my banshe owns my 310R and my 310 beats the YFZs and 450rs...

now bring up your 60 or 62 HP big bore 450s while the banshee big bore R and Lt 500 guys can get a good laugh

[86350x]

THe honda 250r was faster then the suzuki lt250r. And I think they were both quicker then the tacate4 just didn't have as much top end speed due to lower gearing, and normal transmition ratio's. The kawasaki was pretty gappy.

Out of all of em, I would pick the honda.

I already gave my two cents on the whole and real debate a long time ago earlier in the thread. All of these quads people are listing are cool/and fun. If everyone rode the same thing life would be boring.

[blasterfreak99]

Originally posted by 86350x
THe honda 250r was faster then the suzuki lt250r. And I think they were both quicker then the tacate4 just didn't have as much top end speed due to lower gearing, and normal transmition ratio's. The kawasaki was pretty gappy.

Out of all of em, I would pick the honda.

I already gave my two cents on the whole and real debate a long time ago earlier in the thread. All of these quads people are listing are cool/and fun. If everyone rode the same thing life would be boring.

i think that the tecate 4 was quicker due to its powervavle however i could be wrong since i am only 14 so all of the quads are older than me lol

[450rJam]

stock the ltr was quicker, it didnt have near the handleing of the trx.

the trx didnt breath well stock (not many do)
with a few cheap upgrades the trx was head and shoulders above the ltr.

funny that suzuki is trying the same thing now but it takes more money to pump the new ltr up to a hrc 450r.

the 250r will never go out of style, like the old classic cars that ruled the roads for years.

times change, people change (some dont) its cool that you can form your opinion and buy what you like.

the 250r is a legend, even though there may be a better atv today its hard to admit after it ruled everything for so many years.

[TheIceMan]

Originally posted by 450rJam


the 250r is a legend, even though there may be a better atv today its hard to admit after it ruled everything for so many years.

WORD!!
20 years later and they are still running strong.
And as far as those dynos above,i'd like to see Sparks,Duncan pipes too,along with their national motor kits tested.

stock HP numbers, the 250r was the lowest, and in drags the tecate won over the other 2....but lets compare banshee dynos vs any other 4 stroke....or Lt500 dynos to any other 4 stroke...

[450rJam]

I wouldnt mind seeing that, when I think of fast I think of quickness not top speed. the lt500 had both.

if your compairing dynos of 2 stroke vs 4 stroke its hard to come to a conclusion because the 2 strokes have a higher peak but dont maintain it as long.

the highest hp dont always mean the quickest/fastest mechine.

[sandmanblue]

[i]

the highest hp dont always mean the quickest/fastest mechine. [/B]


There it is ^^^^^^^

This thread is about 250r's and 450's.

I don't know why some people seem so intent on bringing up larger motors. If that's what you want to talk about - start another thread.

bottom line is that there are plenty of 250rs out there that can beat 450s and visversa...when people get to such a level it is more the rider then anything else...i prefer my 250r over a 450, i go just as fast, if not faster for less money, why wouldnt someone do it?

[spud400ex]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
Thought I'd help you 250r guys out with stuff from www.gtthunder.com

See below.

What was done to the 250r tested with the different pipes. Im quessing that it was with a stock port jug? If so i would like to see a 450r do that with just a pipe.

[sandmanblue]

Originally posted by spud400ex
What was done to the 250r tested with the different pipes. Im quessing that it was with a stock port jug? If so i would like to see a 450r do that with just a pipe.

Mods are listed on the sheets if there are any. As for the 450 with just a pipe, go to the yfz450 Mobile Dyno ran. He pulled 44.4 on it with just the Rossier pipe, no cam mod - and his dyno is one of the stingier ones I have seen. KBR ran a ltr450 at about 46 hp and his dyno is notoriously low reading.

Look at the ported 250 run as well. They just don't make the power everyone seems to think they do - until the jug gets drag ported or replaced with a bigger/pv jug - but then they are no longer stock jug 250's - and there's no way anyone would run a drag ported 250 on an mx track... Pick up a recent 2 wheeler shootout mag - they have dyno runs galore of all the 450's and 250's. The newer pv 250's are close in peak hp to the newer 450's. It should also be noted that in these shootouts, you'd have to go back a long way to find a 2 stroke that won the shootout. Dirt Rider seems pretty good about being honest and unbiased . I can go back 5 years from 2002 to the present and see 450's taking the shootouts every year...

[spud400ex]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
Mods are listed on the sheets if there are any. As for the 450 with just a pipe, go to the yfz450 Mobile Dyno ran. He pulled 44.4 on it with just the Rossier pipe, no cam mod - and his dyno is one of the stingier ones I have seen. KBR ran a ltr450 at about 46 hp and his dyno is notoriously low reading.

Look at the ported 250 run as well. They just don't make the power everyone seems to think they do - until the jug gets drag ported or replaced with a bigger/pv jug - but then they are no longer stock jug 250's - and there's no way anyone would run a drag ported 250 on an mx track... Pick up a recent 2 wheeler shootout mag - they have dyno runs galore of all the 450's and 250's. The newer pv 250's are close in peak hp to the newer 450's. It should also be noted that in these shootouts, you'd have to go back a long way to find a 2 stroke that won the shootout. Dirt Rider seems pretty good about being honest and unbiased . I can go back 5 years from 2002 to the present and see 450's taking the shootouts every year...

I said that i wanted to see a 450r pull those numbers with a pipe only. I really dont care what numbers the other 450's make. Other than the banshee i really dont give a crap what non honda quads make for power, and that would be a different thread.

[slamdak8782]

Well I guess I was wrong back then. Hats off to the 4 strokers. Still love my R though.

[John Noftsinger]

I heard that the pro,s with the 250r in 2000-2003 were spending 30,000-40,000(some as high as 50) to build a 250r raceworthy and only getting high low 50,s in hp (at 265cc)is this the truth?And why did Doug Gust beat those 250rs with a drz400 motor before the 450,s came out?the 250r imo is not a 250r its all aftermaket The only thing stock on the 250r on the racetrack was the cases! the 250r is DEAD on the racetrack and will never beat a 4-stroke there !

[headache]

Ok so if the 450s were so much better way back in 02 then how was James Stewart, Chad Reed, and Ricky Carmichael kicking *** in 2005 on 250 2 strokes? Shootouts in magazines don't mean crap. In the end its the rider that really wins races. Heck those guys i just mentioned could probably win a supercross race on an xr80...

[John Noftsinger]

Bottom line the 250r WAS the best quad ! 450,s are in both bike/quad races pulling off better lap times than the 250,s did FACT,and the 450,s can be ridden longer do to vibration that causes fatique after 15-20 laps, and have better hook up for blasting out corners to clear huge gaps with little takeoff room.when Doug Gust ran the drz440 lonestar framed quad against the 250r and won a national that was the end of the 250r era.IMO cause then manufactors saw huge advantange and profits in building the new 450,s! Thank god for the Z400 for getting the others to build the new 450,s or we would be stuck with the 250,s banshee,s ,lt500,s not bad quads but would hate to see just those quad available to us and not anything else.

[IcutMetl]

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
Bottom line the 250r WAS the best quad ! 450,s are in both bike/quad races pulling off better lap times than the 250,s did FACT,and the 450,s can be ridden longer do to vibration that causes fatique after 15-20 laps, and have better hook up for blasting out corners to clear huge gaps with little takeoff room.when Doug Gust ran the drz440 lonestar framed quad against the 250r and won a national that was the end of the 250r era.IMO cause then manufactors saw huge advantange and profits in building the new 450,s! Thank god for the Z400 for getting the others to build the new 450,s or we would be stuck with the 250,s banshee,s ,lt500,s not bad quads but would hate to see just those quad available to us and not anything else.

Oh great, now we've got this guy to chime in. As if my head didn't ache enough from reading this entire thread.

Anyway; in my opinion, this general topic is always going to be like a Ford vs Chevy argument- there's no "right" answer. I think there's valid arguments for and against 250r's and 450r's. I had a 400ex, and that was a great 4-wheeler...wish I still had it! Granted; it was in another class when compared with the new 450's, but it was one rock-solid, nearly indestructable 'wheeler. Would I trade my 250R for one...wouldn't even think about it; I've got less money sank into this and for being as old and outdated as it is, it still is just as reliable or more, and puts the bigger grin on MY face. For every argument in favor of the newer 4-strokes, you'll probably find one with equal strength from 2-stroke fans, and vice-versa for the negatives. I've ridden 350x's, 400ex's, Banshees, Warriors, YFZ450's, YZ450F's, CR125's CR250's, Quadzillas, RMX250's, a good mix- like a lot of other people out there, but feel the "old" R does it best for ME. I would love to have a TRX450, KFX450, or a KTM...along with my TRX250R, but not to replace it. I get a bit of enjoyment owning something that isn't as common or as well understood anymore. That, and the smell of race fuel mixed with castor oil is f'in AMAZING!

Can't we agree to disagree? Can't we all just get along?

[slamdak8782]

Well I am retracting my former statement 250rs can be made to make a 450 eat dust and are the more fun to ride answer in this equation. Both are great fun different strokes for different folks. Id like to have both. Oh and I love this thread the end

[witech]

Originally posted by sandmanblue
Now a trx500r 2 smoker

All stock parts 432 cannondale with porting and custom dual exhaust.
Kind of a screamer compared to the big 2 stroke.
Chart shows stock starting hp ,96 decibel exhaust then open duals.
First chart is sandmans.

[witech]

Heres the 4 stroke ,both engines making above 50hp in just a 2000 rpm area except the 4 stroke is doing it at the rev limiter.
Not really showing much more than both are crazy fun power.

[slamdak8782]

I like riding them both. But not a wildly hopped up one more like a stock z400 or 400ex.

[pighater400ex]

Cannondales are where its at and I know they went bankrupt but its easy to find parts for em and there are some that have made it over 70 hp :o

[pighater400ex]

Cannondales are where its at and I know they went bankrupt but its easy to find parts for em and there are some that have made it over 70 hp :o

[450rJam]

really ? over a year since last post and your going to brag about cannondale ?

at least put a smile face so we know your joking ;)

[pighater400ex]

With all the updates there a great quad lol

[Hetrick Racing]

Originally posted by slamdak8782
Well you show me a dyno and maybe I'll believe you. I know you could get a little over 50 with stock bore stock stroke R. If Chads 530 wasn't even over 60, how is a stock bore and stroke 450 going to hit 60. Also i havent seen a stock bore and stroke 450r over 60 yet. Probably over 60 at the crank but at the wheels. Really would love to see that one.

Stop by the shop some day
Joels Practice quad was 52 with a stock piston stock valves and a Hot Cam, and had a quiet core pipe at 94db ,lol
Im just sayin
Stop by, Ill show ya the race quad as well,You wont believe your eyes
Im not being rude or anything but these guys are pros they have the best ,

[eastside 400]

check out moto-xperts facebook page, 60+ Hp on meyers and martins pro-am bikes last year

[JOHNDOE83]

I know theres bored, stroked, NOS'd 450rs putting out 80 HP.

I dont see how 60hp is possible on stock stroke and bore.

The dyno charts are nice but all that work and a stock cr250 motor is said to have 45hp, I havent seen a dyno for one but Im sure its close?

[01boneless]

over on org ive seen stock bore and stroke on race gas, 450r's make 65 and maybe more. but thats with massive compression like 14:1-15:1 porting biger valves massive web cams with that stuff takes alot of extra modding like oversize cam buckets ect.... also been impressive st sb pump gas 450's that have pushed 60. my build was estimated at 51-54 hp when im done i will have it dynoed for sure. ill see if i can find some good charts over there

[87R_Racer]

cc for cc the 2 stroke will make more power...end of discussion.

[TURBO-530R]

Run what you brung and hope you brought enough

[87R_Racer]

Originally posted by TURBO-530R
Run what you brung and hope you brought enough

Exactly....

[Victork1982]

450 motors can't compare to 250R based motors all out. 4 stroke guys need large displacement because theyre cheaters look at the service Honda AF500 making nearly twice the torque of a stock 450. I had a 450 and it was gay, who ever thought 450cc's could be so slow! I'll be going out riding again Sunday and I'll defenitely be stomping my buddy's kfx450R like I was last week;) really though, nothing is like a full blown 250R based racer, nothing.

[Buttermilk]

It all comes down to what your gonna do with the quad....

If I were ALL about drag racing, I'd go back to the 2-strokes....

However, since I, and my family, like to race flattrack/TT sanctioned events, the rules give the 4 stroke an advantage.

Yes, the two stroke can get more HP per CC than a 4 stroke, though the gap on that has shrunk in the last few years.

However, in EDT type racing as well as MX and Cross Country, it's not all about max HP, but about useable HP or area under the curve, and the tractibility of the 4-stroke and also how effeciently the 4-stroke makes use of the power that it has.

I was a long time 2-stroke fan, even refusing to own one for a while, but finally realized the 4-stroke had a decided advantage, even if it was granted by the rules, it was still an advantage. So, we converted to 4-strokes.....

Still like the 2-stroke 250R and Banshee. Nothing like them. But when it comes to certain forms of racing, those venerable 2-strokes can be beaten, and beaten even with less HP....

The current generation of built 4-strokes are getting a solid 60 HP from a 450cc engine when setup correctly (my son's is there as well as a few friends...), and it take a very, very well built 2-stroke 265cc motor (though current EDT rules allow a 306cc 2-stroke) to make mid 55+ hp - mine made 56+ HP and there wasn't much left in it....



Regards,
Rog

[Victork1982]

Well why is it that there always has to be rules on the 250Rs so that the 450s can have a edge? I say if the 450 has a edge in power to the ground etc, why but a HANDY CAP on the R. Let's not forget what jerimiah jones was doing to those built 450s with only 265 cc's. By the way, a 265cc is small in 250R terms. I'm not saying the 450s are completely slow or junk but why did the AMA have to handy cap the Rs and them make new rules so they can't be raced anymore in the ''pro production class''? 450s are good but they're rise to the top of popularity was done so with a lot of shadyness. Take a look at some of the 330-370 R motors being built today, they're putting out more hp and the torque is right there with decked out 450s. The R has way more potential but it takes quite a bit more skill to pilot. If you prefer a smooth easy to ride power that's fine with me. For any of you who know all the stories behind the R being phased out of pro racing, you know it's not due to lack of compatibility to the 450s. Am I right or what?

[Buttermilk]

Reason for the 265cc vs 450cc is pretty simple.

You have to remember that when this particular displacement limit was put into place, most 4 strokes were the older school 4-stroke types, like the 400EX (good machine, but not in the same league motor wise as the 450's...).

a 440cc-450cc TRX400EX was about the equivelant (at the time) of the 250R's of that day. Very similar potential on the track. Back then, it made sense, because that displacement edge made the 400EX competitive against the 250R in that day.

Then, the current crop of 4-strokes, such as the YFZ450, followed by the TRX450R, came along, and stock with minimal upgrades (ie, pipe and jetted) they were competive right off with the venerable 250R. A couple of years later, the 4-stroke 450's gained a competitive advantage with people finding ways to make them faster and more powerful.

The AMA/ATVA didn't see fit, for one reason or another, to allow the 2-stroke any gain in displacement since most riders were ditching the 2-stroke and going with the 4-stroke 450's. Since no manufacturer was currently making a track competitive 2-stroke (ie - 250R), then there was no real reason to change the rules.

The Pro's didn't help matters any at all by building the hybrids during the peak of the 250R's dominance. The hybrids allowed the Pro's to go even faster than they could on a well built 250R for the same reasons the 450's are faster in most cases than the 2-stroke 250R.

As much as I hate to admit it, I have finally come to grips with the fact that the 2-stroke days are over. They are gone. Just as the days of 2-stroke street bikes are gone. Sad, but true, in my opinion.

It also doesn't help that the 4-strokes allow riders who are/were just average riders on a 2-stroke to become faster and more competitive on the newer generation 4-strokes. I'm one of those guys, even though I'm 48 years old. I'm much faster on the 4-stroke. For that reason and that reason alone, I've come to really like the 4-strokes.

Regards,

Rog

[Victork1982]

The big 4 manufacturers payed the pros to ride the 450s when factory sponsorship came back. Woild you rather ride for a private team or have a career with one of the big four? The 265cc rule was also in place while riders were yzf and CRF hybrids. Say what ever you want but the set up right handles as good if not better than the new age 450s and it's more capable of higher TORQUE and HP. I like facts rather than the smoke the big manufacturers and AMA blew up everyone's ***. Are the built 450s able to win against big bore Rs? If the riders better of course. My whole point is the R is superior when you're allowed to build it right. Although it does take more talent and it will reward that talent. I'll finish by saying the 450s performance didn't end the Rs reign, it was the AMA being the big 4s piss boy.

[8686]

Originally posted by Victork1982
The big 4 manufacturers payed the pros to ride the 450s when factory sponsorship came back. Woild you rather ride for a private team or have a career with one of the big four? The 265cc rule was also in place while riders were yzf and CRF hybrids. Say what ever you want but the set up right handles as good if not better than the new age 450s and it's more capable of higher TORQUE and HP. I like facts rather than the smoke the big manufacturers and AMA blew up everyone's ***. Are the built 450s able to win against big bore Rs? If the riders better of course. My whole point is the R is superior when you're allowed to build it right. Although it does take more talent and it will reward that talent. I'll finish by saying the 450s performance didn't end the Rs reign, it was the AMA being the big 4s piss boy.

That is correct.

[genoapb]

All I know is take 4 grand for each build for whatever type of riding and see which bike has more power and suspension in todays economy! Not to mention which one will be easier and cheaper to maintain for the average joe. I mean thats what we all are here right, how many of you have corporate sponsers or whatever?

[pickard_47]

i will get you a dyno sheet for a stock bore stock stroke 450 thats puttin down 65 horse and a dynojet

[Buttermilk]

I think some of you are failing to realize a very key piece of information in this two vs four debate:

It was the PROS who CHOSE to run the hybrid 4 stroke engines in the aftermarket 250R chassis because they saw they had an advantage over the two strokes of that day. Not because anyone was forcing them to ride them. Competitive 4 strokes weren't available at that time.

They chose to run them at a time when it was possible due to the rules and because it gave them an advantage over the two strokes.

Not because they were paid big money by manufacturers. That came later.

It then became a snowball effect after that. Manufacturers got involved and began to produce competitive 4 stroke sport atv's and the rest is history. Money was offered to top riders, rules were tweaked to again benefit 4 strokes (up to 450cc from the earlier 440cc).

Yes, given the same money, a two stroke 250R can produce some good power. More per CC than a 4 stroke. However, it doesn't change the fact that a 4 stroke can be faster than the 2 stroke even when the 4 stroke has less power. Seen it happen way too many times. I myself refused to give up on the 2 stroke for a long time. As a result, my son got out motored by 4 strokes with less power.

I personally consider the 450's the equal of the 250R in terms of handling given both have good setups.

2 stroke eaiser/cheaper to maintain? Certainly. Still don't change the fact that modern 450's are superior to the old 250R, at least as it applies to getting around a track the fastest way possible.

I recognize the greatness of the 250R, but sadly, it's day is gone.

Regards,
Rog

[CRE Performance]

Coming from someone who has been on the nationals gate for a long time....since the late 80's to be exact, Ill put my 2 cents in.

After reading this thread off and on, I keep seeing some of the same comments come up, generally whining about 2 strokes having less displacement, 4 strokes being too expensive for maintenance, and bragging on how the 2 strokes make the same amount of power...... Please, allow me to make a few points here...

1- Two strokes make a power cycle for every 1 rotation of the crankshaft. As to where the 4 stroke engine makes a power cycle every 2 revolutions of the crankshaft. Having said that, if you want to compare apples to apples, the 2 stroke should only need half the displacement to match title for title. Write that down.

2- Maintenance. Having raced 2 strokes for many, many years, I feel that I am qualified to say this......For every set of valves I replace in my 4 stroke, I would have had to replace the piston, rings, and gaskets on my 2 stroke. So I cant really relate when people spew that garbage about maintenance being cheaper. Easier on a 2 stroke? Sure! But Its no easier than doing it on a 4 stroke if some would get out from under the rock and give it a shot, Cupcake.

3- 2 strokes make the same amount of power. Hogwash! 2 strokes are perfectly capable of making the same amount of "peak" HP and TQ, but I have yet to find one that peak to peak makes anywhere near the same amount of average HP and TQ. See, its that power under the curve that wins MX races and Drag races. Power under the curve gets you out of the corner and off the line faster. Sure, you can rev that 2 stroke to the moon and drop the clutch.....only to find out that the initial shock has broken the tires loose.

Bottom line is, I would be hard pressed to keep racing if I was told I "had" to go back to 2 strokes. Only advantage two strokes have over modern day 4 strokes is that the sound doesnt travel as far in the forest.

[headache]

Originally posted by pickard_47
i will get you a dyno sheet for a stock bore stock stroke 450 thats puttin down 65 horse and a dynojet


I can get you a dyno sheet with a 65hp blaster motor, but that doesn't mean either one is going to last very long. Both will time bombs good for only drag racing