New ESR 330 motor, coolant leak inside cylinder!! Help

[1stR]

I just installed an ESR 330 bolt on kit onto a recently rebuilt bottom end. I have about 10 hours on the motor. Yesterday I was riding and the bike was running great. It was a colder day than usual, and I mixed the premix a little richer 32:1 compared the 44:1 which I normally run. I didn't rejet which I know I should have. Any way about halfway through my ride I got on the gas hard through 3rd and 4th gear and when I let off the motor started running real bad immediately. I shut it off as quick as I could.

The problem is that almost all of the coolant leaked into the cylinder as the resevoir was empty. I pulled the plug and it was wet and black. The ESR cylinder head is o-ringed, could this just be a blown head seal?

I pulled of the head today and there weren't any noticable crack in the cylinder or head, the compression is good, there was no coolant in the transmission/gear oil???? What could this be?? Please give me some info.

[beerock]

dude its kind of hard to understand what your sayin

first things first though, using more oil in your gas(changing from 44:1 to 32:1) this leans your fuel mixture out and can cause a sieze especially doing that with the oil and having the temperatiure drop like you said.ALWAYS run the same premix ratio for a motor

do the orings on the head look cooked?

[1stR]

I pulled the cylinder head and the o rings look fine. I didn't notice any cracks or anything unusual on the cylinder walls or to the piston etc. I am confused as to what broke to cause all the coolant in my resovoir to get sucked into the motor.

I also drained the oil out of the crankcase and there didn't appear to be any water/coolant in the oil.

When it happened, there was not really any white smoke coming out of the exhaust?? (maybe because I run straight water and water wetter?)

I am hoping that maybe the cylinder head wasn't torqued correctly and the oring got "blown" out of the "o-ring seat".

[hontrx265r]

You should be able to tell if the oring blew, by looking at it. honestly o ring heads go quite often I haven't had very good luck with them. adding more oil to your gas doesn't lean your fuel mixture. Your jets control your gas flow, your just making the fuel more lubricated. That won't hurt anything. I'm really guessing that if you just built this motor, the oring was probably leaking a very small amount right from the start. You didn't notice because it was such a small quantity. It finally let go causing the motor to run poorly. And the reason you still have decent compression, is because the outside o- ring is still good so its holding most of its air inside the cylinder. One other thing if your inner o ring was leaking your bike would most likely run hot and over heat. Your fluid could have poured out if its routed where you can't see it. This is because the piston is blowing hot air into the coolant cavity in the cylinder. I.M.O. hopefully you figure it out soon.

[hontrx265r]

One more thing, did you buy the cyinder used? or are the cylinder and head two different companies? what I'm getting at is maybe the head surface/to cylinder surface isn't flush.

[beerock]

Originally posted by hontrx265r
You should be able to tell if the oring blew, by looking at it. honestly o ring heads go quite often I haven't had very good luck with them. adding more oil to your gas doesn't lean your fuel mixture. Your jets control your gas flow, your just making the fuel more lubricated. That won't hurt anything. I'm really guessing that if you just built this motor, the oring was probably leaking a very small amount right from the start. You didn't notice because it was such a small quantity. It finally let go causing the motor to run poorly. And the reason you still have decent compression, is because the outside o- ring is still good so its holding most of its air inside the cylinder. One other thing if your inner o ring was leaking your bike would most likely run hot and over heat. Your fluid could have poured out if its routed where you can't see it. This is because the piston is blowing hot air into the coolant cavity in the cylinder. I.M.O. hopefully you figure it out soon.

dude your wrong, putting more oil into the fuel mixture will lean it out.:chinese:

[hontrx265r]

Your saying resivour/ not radiator. Is your radiator still full of fluid. Because The bottle will fluctuate with a warm engine. Your problem may not have to do with coolant at all! Air leak? I've also had a pilot jet come loose and flutter in its hole causing the engine to not want to run right.

[hontrx265r]

Even though this has nothing to do with his problem becasue the engine did not sieze and he doens't have any scoring. Explain your self. because I'm pretty sure on this one! I don't want to argue over an irrelivant issue.

[1stR]

But if the o-ring blew, would it be damaged, or could it just have slid out of the "channel" in the head allowing water to leak into the cylinder?

The temp of the motor was actually only about 130 degrees on the ESR gauge where it normally runs about 155 degrees.

If I put a new plug in, the motor will start and not make any strange noises, but after a minute of so the plug will get fouled out because of the coolant leaking in the cylinder, and the bike will spudder and try to stall.

I am basically wondering if its possible for the oring to have slid out of the channel on the top of the cylinder and let the water leak in to the cylinder? This is what I am assuming it is but want to get some opinions.
BTW, if the orings look ok, should I just reinstall them and retorque the head, or should I get new ones??

[hontrx265r]

I don't think its possible for the oring to slide out of the groove, unless it happend on install. which it obviously didn't because you say it ran fine for ten hours. And it would have been demadged if you did pinch it. "They" say you can reuse them! I wouldn't recommend, however you have nothing to lose by trying other then your time.

[1stR]

THe resovoir normally fluctuates a little but it was on the full line and right after I noticed something was wrong, the bottle was empty and I could smell that burnt coolant. When I pulled the plug it was literally soaking wet and the porelain was covered in black residue.

[hontrx265r]

I think you blew a base gasket?

[beerock]

once a motor is run and heated up the 0rings cant be reused. some people might but thats not a good idea.

buy new orings....

putting more oil into the fuel mixture makes the motor run leaner because theres more oil per quare inch then fuel. the Jets on the bike see more oil and less fuel

[hontrx265r]

no nevermind that can't be it either

[1stR]

what else could of happened to the engine to let coolant into the cylinder except for a blown oring?

The inside of the cylinder looked fine so I know there is no cracks in the cylinder wall itself?

The other thing is no water leaked outside of the motor at all, everything was dry as a bone.

[1stR]

beerock, what else could cause an internal water leak??

[hontrx265r]

I understand about the parts per square ounce, I figured you would say that, but your not adding more air and they burn as one, the oil burns too.

[hontrx265r]

Did you put the rings in Dry or with grease

[hontrx265r]

The only other thing that could cause a leak would be the water pump, but you say there is no water in the trans

[beerock]

theres LESS fuel per square inch with MORE oil added. it runs the motor lean. you have to compensate for mroe opil with a larger main jet so the fuel delivery is the same as before you add more oil to the fuel.

a cracked cylinder could cause a leak. are you sure you have a leak? try filling up the resivior and radiator and watch the levels.

you could have a bad mechanical seal, the tell tale sign of that leaking is right under the water pump area theres a weep hole,

[cdrookie]

beerock is right about oil. there now that subject is overwith.


a cracked cylinder can be a hard thing to see. might drop it off at a local machine shop and have it magnafluxed. if it checks out fine get both the head and cylinder surfaced and put back together with new o rings.

[hontrx265r]

beerock, I like your protrax bike here is a pic of my old one. narrow frame t-pin cr500 bike

[hontrx265r]

yz 440

[honda350r]

Beerock is correct!!!! Shut up and listen,you may learn something !!

[hontrx265r]

i wasn't arguing with him I was trying to understand why and asking questions, If you don't have any thing good to say for this guy having a problem shut up #SS

[honda350r]

Originally posted by hontrx265r
i wasn't arguing with him I was trying to understand why and asking questions, If you don't have any thing good to say for this guy having a problem shut up #SS


You have not said anything to help this guy..

[hontrx265r]

I'm the only one besides beerock who has had anything to contribute to his problem. I'm not in front of his engine so I can't guarantee a solid solution, however I've had this same problem on a bike of mine in the past, and have suggested the things that were associated with the problem and that helped me. There is nothing more I can do, and I'm done with the subject. He'll figure it out, he just wanted some ideas. All your doing is creating an argument over the internet you should just leave this thread and me alone because your just being a d*ck and that doens't help, now does it! If your so damn smart solve is problem genius!

[1stR]

hondatrx265r, I appreciate all the suggestions that you have gave....much appreciated.

I am pretty sure that either the cylinder is cracked to the point where its not visible to the naked eye, or the orings weren't properly seated or torqued.

The water was definetly getting into the cylinder because it fouled the plug out extremely bad.


Man this sucks, I just spent over $1500 on this motor:grr:

[250R-Dee]

Get new o-rings and compression test the cylinder. Also do a leak down test. Is the head cracked?

[ak_stick]

if your plug was black, you might just be too fat and so your fowling plugs like hell. And you said you did run a richer mix than normal.

If you have no water in your tranny, or engine, I dont think you have a leak, you said it was running colder than normal, and then noticed that the fluid level in the bottle was lower, so it might have just drained back into the radiator.

As for the whole rich/lean with more oil, BeerRock is right, but I dont think it'd cause a seize because you'd have more oil. You'd have a seize if you had less oil because you'd be lacking lubrication.

Then again, I could be wrong.

[Jersey450R]

maybe you forgot to put the powerband back in the motor:p :confused:

[beerock]

Originally posted by hontrx265r
I'm the only one besides beerock who has had anything to contribute to his problem. I'm not in front of his engine so I can't guarantee a solid solution, however I've had this same problem on a bike of mine in the past, and have suggested the things that were associated with the problem and that helped me. There is nothing more I can do, and I'm done with the subject. He'll figure it out, he just wanted some ideas. All your doing is creating an argument over the internet you should just leave this thread and me alone because your just being a d*ck and that doens't help, now does it! If your so damn smart solve is problem genius!

haha, wow you dont know jim very well do ya?

hontrx265r it did seem like you were arguing with me lol but if you keep saying something that is false of course i have to tell ya thats wrong cause tyhen people are going to start believing that your right and thats just wrong.

my buddy forgot if he mixed his ooil in his bike so he doubled up on the oil. the bike ran lean and seized. i said something to him but we didnt think it was detrimental. it sure was for his bike.



akstick said: As for the whole rich/lean with more oil, BeerRock is right, but I dont think it'd cause a seize because you'd have more oil. You'd have a seize if you had less oil because you'd be lacking lubrication

thats the exact logic that screws peoples head up they think the more oil the better. thats not true. when a bike seizes its not because you ran 20:1 or 100:1 its because the fuel mixture was too lean.... the leaner you make the mixture the hotter the piston and cyl walls get. when you run it to lean OR DO SOMETHING out of the normal running of the machine, like pouring more oil into the tank. you cause the jetting to go lean and can possibly have a piston melt down.......

that pro trax is nice

[250r4life]

ha ha ha... i just barely read through this post for the 1st time... beerock, good job buddy... you handled it a lot better and with a lot more patience then i would have...

[jas250r]

Trying to understand you guys, does your engine run leaner because the oil raises the viscosity of the fuel, therefore making less flow through your main jet, causing you to run leaner? Just trying to understand

[250r4life]

ok, lets say that in course of an hour, 1 gallon of fluid can go through your main jet... well, lets just say that at 40:1, of that 1 gallon, 97% is gasoline, and 3% is oil. well, if you change it to 32:1, lets say that 96% is gasoline and 4% is oil. thus you have decreased the amount of gasoline, so in order to have the same amount of gasoline with a richer mix, you have to go bigger on your jet to equal the amount of gasoline previously acheived with a leaner mix and a smaller jet...

[hollywood250r]

[i]putting more oil into the fuel mixture makes the motor run leaner because theres more oil per quare inch then fuel. the Jets on the bike see more oil and less fuel [/B]

Wrong! Putting more oil on the fuel mixture changes the specific gravity of the resulting fuel mixture. More oil the mixture thickens. If the mixture gets thicker it is harder to suck it through the same size jet as a thinner mixture. Liking trying to drink Kings Syrup through a straw. It is easier to drink water through a straw then Kings Syrup. Oil is thicker than gas! You need to increase the jet size if you add more oil to your fuel mixture to get the same about of fuel to the motor. The motor does not see just more oil! It sees less fuel mixture period, if you don't increase the jet size. If it saw more oil that would mean more lubrication. Oil lubes better then gas. The more lube you have the less friction. The less friction the less heat. If you add more oil to your mixture and don't change the carb settings your motor will see less fuel mixture.

[ak_stick]

I dunno about all that rich/lean stuff, I work on simple things like helicopters for a living.

I hate engines, I can fix em, but I damn sure dont understand em very well.

to me, if you add more oil, it wouldn't burn a hot, because oil doesn't burn as readily as gas, so it would be a richer mixture, and lubricate better. than vice versa, and hence be less likely to seize. Thats why you run an engine with no oil, it seizes, because there is no lube in there.

And I full well could be wrong, I dont deal with engines enough to know, all I know is when my turboshafts, or generator gets low on oil, I add more oil.

[1stR]

Man I am dissapointed in ESR. I called them to see if they would replace the cylinder if in fact it had a defect when it was cast. They didn't some to promising that they would stand behind their product even though I just bought the engine kit from them 3 weeks ago along with a pipe, air box eliminator and carb.

I called CT racing to see what they thought of my situation. I told them that I bought there cylinder to see how they would respond and they said to send it back and if its cracked, they would send a me a new cylinder.

How has ESR treated you all that have dealt with them, or heard or them?

[slick250]

First off, Beerock is right about the mixture leaning out as you add more oil to the mix. That should be common logic. If you add enough oil to your fuel, eventually there would be so much oil in the mix that there would barely be enough fuel to keep the bike running, even with huge main jets. And YES, that is a LEAN fuel mixture.

Secondly, I had this same thing happen with my ESR 330. After much research and phone calls to ESR, they told me that it is not uncommon for a cylinder casting to have a porous spot in it that is not dense enough to keep antifreeze from working through it. They advised that I should use a cooling system sealant. That idea did not set well with me after I spent 2000 dollars, but I went ahead and did it. It has been going now for almost 2 years now without a problem.

I used Wynns sealant. It is not a heavy/chunky sealant. It pours in with about the consistency of milk. Very good stuff.

[beerock]

Originally posted by ak_stick
I dunno about all that rich/lean stuff, I work on simple things like helicopters for a living.

I hate engines, I can fix em, but I damn sure dont understand em very well.

to me, if you add more oil, it wouldn't burn a hot, because oil doesn't burn as readily as gas, so it would be a richer mixture, and lubricate better. than vice versa, and hence be less likely to seize. Thats why you run an engine with no oil, it seizes, because there is no lube in there.

And I full well could be wrong, I dont deal with engines enough to know, all I know is when my turboshafts, or generator gets low on oil, I add more oil.

wow you work on choppers , you should know this man.

hollywood your thread is exactly WRONG. and is pretty much everyones idea of how it works, seems to make sense but its wrong....

but like i said in a previous post, there are tons of people that have the same misconception. JUST LOOK UP AT THE PEOPLE DISAGREEING WITH ME. lol, I guess they think i dont know what im talkin about. Then people think im a know it all when i tell them I KNOW LOL hAHAHA. whatever.

two strokes are different animals.

it is hard to understand how oil effects the fuel mixture. I already explained it twice or more in this thread, but people arent reading or trying to let go of there thoughts of what they think about this misconception. especially comin from me and like the 2-3 other people who said i was right. LOL. HELLO WAKE UP!!!

pouring more oil into fuel,ahhh scew it ive explained it enough....... figure it out or blow your damn motor up like my friend did, (WHICH I ALREADY talked about)

most of my experience is real world not from thinking maybe its like this. there one way it works, not another way...

im done lol nutty fockers

[1stR]

slick 250: how long did you have your 330 cylinder before it began to leak? Seond, ESR would not fix the cylinder for you?

[hollywood250r]

Originally posted by beerock
wow you work on choppers , you should know this man.

hollywood your thread is exactly WRONG. and is pretty much everyones idea of how it works, seems to make sense but its wrong....

but like i said in a previous post, there are tons of people that have the same misconception. JUST LOOK UP AT THE PEOPLE DISAGREEING WITH ME. lol, I guess they think i dont know what im talkin about. Then people think im a know it all when i tell them I KNOW LOL hAHAHA. whatever.

two strokes are different animals.

it is hard to understand how oil effects the fuel mixture. I already explained it twice or more in this thread, but people arent reading or trying to let go of there thoughts of what they think about this misconception. especially comin from me and like the 2-3 other people who said i was right. LOL. HELLO WAKE UP!!!

pouring more oil into fuel,ahhh scew it ive explained it enough....... figure it out or blow your damn motor up like my friend did, (WHICH I ALREADY talked about)

most of my experience is real world not from thinking maybe its like this. there one way it works, not another way...

im done lol nutty fockers

I understand what you are trying to say. You just said it incorrectly in the passage that I quoted from you. If you read carefully what I wrote you will understand that what I am saying is correct. I based the entire passage that I wrote off adding more oil to the fuel mixture while maintaining the same carb settings. Doing this will make the gas/oil richer with oil while at the same time make the air/fuel mixture leaner. The more oil you had the more you increase the specific gravity of the mixture. The higher the specific gravity of the fuel the more resistance it has to flow through the same size jet as a mixture that has a lower specific gravity. I know if you increase oil in your fuel mixture you need to increase the size of your jets. I said this in the post. I did not say anything wrong because I was not defending adding more oil without changing jets. What is did say was more oil in the fuel mixture with proper jetting is better for a 2-stoke motor. It is good for the big rod bearing and main crank bearings. Also it has been probe that adding more oil to your fuel mixture (within limits, 20:1 vs 40:1) will cause your motor to make more horsepower when jetting correctly and will not foul plugs. This because the increase specific gravity cause a better ring seal. In my earlier post I was simply explaining what you said incorrectly. Before you say I am wrong, read and understand what I wrote. The example of sucking kings syrup though a straw vs sucking water through a straw explains the whole concept of how adding more oil to your fuel mixture without changing your carb settings will lean your air/fuel mixture.

you wrote putting more oil into the fuel mixture makes the motor run leaner because theres more oil per quare inch then fuel. the Jets on the bike see more oil and less fuel

This is incorrect because the oil and gas mix completely. The gas acts as a solvent for the oil. The motor sees the fuel mixture not more oil and less fuel. Due to more oil being in the mixture (high specific gravity) with the same carb setting, less of the fuel mixture gets through the jet. The oil and gas completely mix to become one. Like adding food coloring to water. Most good premixes do not easily split from gas unless sitting a long time. Even then you can shake it to mix up again. Some say that premix that is to old has less of a capacity to lubercate because the gas begins to break down the oil lubercation properties.

[slick250]

I ran my 330 engine through all the recommended breakin without any problems. I had run about a tank and a half though it without a hint of a problem. I then took it to the Little Sahara sand dunes to let it rip. I lasted about 10 to 15 minutes of hard riding before the telltale signs of water in the exhaust.
ESR responded very casually and acted as though adding sealant was not out of the ordinary at all. They made it sound as though the sealant additive was the last step of the big bore installation.
Good luck............It worked for me...

[beerock]

Originally posted by hollywood250r


you wrote putting more oil into the fuel mixture makes the motor run leaner because theres more oil per quare inch then fuel. the Jets on the bike see more oil and less fuel

This is incorrect because the oil and gas mix completely. The gas acts as a solvent for the oil. The motor sees the fuel mixture not more oil and less fuel. Due to more oil being in the mixture (high specific gravity) with the same carb setting, less of the fuel mixture gets through the jet. The oil and gas completely mix to become one. Like adding food coloring to water. Most good premixes do not easily split from gas unless sitting a long time. Even then you can shake it to mix up again. Some say that premix that is to old has less of a capacity to lubercate because the gas begins to break down the oil lubercation properties.

no i am right man. lol there is mor eoil per square inch dude its simple..........

2 5 gallon gas tanks they both hold EXACTLY the same weight in gas. if you put 20 ounces in of oil its now 5 gallonsof gas 20 ounces of oil. when this MIXES its still 4 gallons and 16 ounces of a premixed gas.(i believe thats 32-1) 50-1 is 12.8 ounces,which requires a leaner jet

so a bike with 4 gallons of gas will actually have 4 gallons , 16 ounces if measured. once its mixed the unit of oil per square inch are mixed into the gas. ITS PART OF THE FUEL MIXTURE. the more oil you mix the fatter the jet you need to use because theres less fuel being burned to be jetted correctly with more oil. especially when you add more oil to a bike jetted for a different ratio.

dude wake up lol

you know your actually agreeing but theres something wrong with talking about the mixture of gas and oil, the jets see the mixture as a liquid nothing else. the MOTOR SEES THE PREMIXED FUEL thats it bro. it doesnt say oh i know there mroe oil in this.

heres a link to somehtin i posted a whiel back its simple to understand.

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=182918

[punker69q]

Beerock is the one who is right here. Also, the oil is thicker than gas, so more oil will make the mix thicker and not flow as well, so that will lean out your air to fuel ratio to the motor.

[250r4life]

did i not explain it correctly higher up on this post?

[punker69q]

Originally posted by 250r4life
did i not explain it correctly higher up on this post?

ok, you were right too :D

[mikeboone]

I bought a new ESR 330 bolt on as well on last build. Head was torqued to correct specs but still blowed two sets of o-rings (inner) after 4-5 hrs. Called ESR and sent cylinder and head back. They called a few days after receiving and said the head had been machined down too much and wasent sealing the o-rings. They replaced head and sent me all new gaskets for free. Have not installed yet but hope this fixes the problem/