Religion Debate Thread

[Atkins]

Well since the other one got locked up because of immaturity, I figured id start one up just for this. Post what you believe in as much detail as you can, and why. Discussion is good, but dont get at each others throats and get this locked up.

Anyways, heres mine copied and pasted from the other thread:

I am agnostic, I believe that theres something, but I just havent found it yet. I was raised Roman Catholic and I believed through and through in catholicism. Ive always been the type of person to question things, and try to figure out the unknown logically and scientifically for myself, never fully accepting the word of others. As I began to question the Bible, and its word of Jesus and God, I began to realize that most if not all of it did not make sense in any literal sense. I noticed that many christians believe that the bible is to be literally interpretted as our past and is the absolute truth, but I dont understand this logic at all. Then I began to look at it from a metephorical standpoint. I began to realize that the bible is not any literal translation of our past, but a book written metephorically in order to teach us good moral character.

The bible is a priceless book when passages are interpretted as good moral lessons written metephorically, and can help build a healthy moral character in one's self. It is only when people decide to take it literally and as "the word of God" when people begin to fear the opposite of it's word.

When i began analizing the bible and faith and religion in general, from probably 2nd grade up until now, I at first felt this inner fear that even the thought of thinking against what my church was teaching me was going to damn me to hell, and that it was sacriligious. Slowly, as I became braver and clearer with my thoughts, I began to realize that this fear is unnecessary. When religious fanatics live caring kind lives, it is not because that is their true character, but because they have an inner fear that if they do not live like this, they will be damned to hell. This facad of kindness that masked an inner selfishness for one's self deeply troubled me. I began to realize that it is only when you take this fear out of your life, and begin to look at life and humanity from a clean pallet, can you begin to mold these good moral traits tought by the bible into your own character without doing so only in fear of the wrath of any God.

EDIT:I'd just like to add that I can honestly live my life in the absence of fear because I dont fear the wrath of any God upon my actions.

Anyways, if you have any questions, ask away.

[mxdave28]

i can see another padlock coming

[trx400exxracer]

I am not debating atleast I will try not to but I am a Christian:D

[Atkins]

Originally posted by mxdave28
i can see another padlock coming
As long as people keep it clean and mature, there wont be.

[whiteflash]

Originally posted by mxdave28
i can see another padlock coming

[trx400exxracer]

Originally posted by mxdave28
i can see another padlock coming

seriously my other thread that I started to see how many Christian riders turned into a 14 page thread of people arguing and debating

[stalefish_132]

I'm a christian:chinese:

[Pappy]

Originally posted by trx400exxracer
seriously my other thread that I started to see how many Christian riders turned into a 14 page thread of people arguing and debating

rather a 14 page thread of fighting then 2000+ years :p

im a live and let live fellow. i believe there is a god, i geuss,i sure would like to think there is something after this life is over. but if someone wants to believe in something else thats cool too, as long as they leave me alone.

[Hondadudeehhhh]

im confused as what to believe in. I know there is something out there, but i just dont know what. Its tough to commit to something but i cant say i dont believe in anything. Ive never really stopped to think about religion, but i read tim's post and thought. I like what you said about the bible being more metaphoric than literal, most people think of it as all being true or what ever (like i did) but now i see it differently. Religion is an interesting topic and i hope this thread doesnt get locked.

[honduh440]

does anyone know anything about the "god" gene?

[honda350r]

This is one of my favorite

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/...storyId=5015557

Click the listen button ..


I agree with Penn's essay !

[Atkins]

I liked that Penn Teller essay, well written.

[stiffy]

Isn't religion the cause of most of the worlds wars and deaths? I live in Utah so I am a firm Mormon hater they are all ( at least here in Utah ) very judgemental and wierd people the whole state is influenced by the Mormons they own 90% of this state if you are not a member you are an outcast, Oh yeah they just celebrated their 200th birthday of the church :rolleyes: They don't believe in birth control they will have as many kids as god will give them they pay 10% before taxes in tithing which is tax deductable they have 10 or more kids which is all a tax deduction and the rest of us have to pay for all of their kids. They can't drink caffiene :rolleyes: they where garments once they are sealed in the temple and they are supposed to be protection from evil or something, a friend of mine that I went to high school with ended up marrying a mormon boy and they got married in the temple so her family wasn't allowed to attend. These Mormons are a bunch of Whack Jobs who are brainwashed from birth. Oh Yeah they also think there are only a certain amount of people allowed in their heaven. I think if you treat people the way you want to be treated that is just fine. I actually would worship George Carlin he is a genious (sp?) I can't wait to move out of here so my son isn't outcasted or influenced by them. I think organized religion is frightening.

[Butters]

have you ever been to a mormon church? i know i have and they were the nicest and friendlest people of any church i have been to. i know i have never felt more welcome. i have been to several churches, so i feel like i have experianced many different sides of religion.

[Atkins]

Originally posted by Butters
have you ever been to a mormon church? i know i have and they were the nicest and friendlest people of any church i have been to. i know i have never felt more welcome. i have been to several churches, so i feel like i have experianced many different sides of religion. When you said several different sides of religion, you meant sides of christianity, correct?

[Butters]

Originally posted by Atkins
When you said several different sides of religion, you meant sides of christianity, correct?

yeah sorry i didn't specify. though i do have a cousin-in-law that is a muslim so i get the scoop on that. i have been to a methodist, presbyterian (baptized that), baptist, nazarine (however you spell it) catholic, latter-day saint (mormon), and luthern churches. i have been to all those except the catholic church at least 5 times some more. i was actually hired by the catholic church to play trumpet, but i did sit through 2 services.

[MXRACER86]

They's callin me!

[stiffy]

There are a lot of nice Mormons they bring me cookies and brownies and stuff all of the time. But give me the roll of the eyes if I say I'm going riding on a Sunday I can't get a job around here they are all reserved for the Mormons I worked construction and it's impossible to get jobs cause the mormons own the entire state and already have a contractor. I could go on and on :rolleyes:

[wilkin250r]

Stiffy, you mentioned your views on the Mormon Church, but you did not mention your views on religion.

Outside of the Mormon Church, what do you believe?

[Butters]

Originally posted by stiffy
There are a lot of nice Mormons they bring me cookies and brownies and stuff all of the time. But give me the roll of the eyes if I say I'm going riding on a Sunday I can't get a job around here they are all reserved for the Mormons I worked construction and it's impossible to get jobs cause the mormons own the entire state and already have a contractor. I could go on and on :rolleyes:


yeah it sucks, but it is like that everywhere. so you just happen to live in a state where it is against you. i know a lot of places i live wouldn't hire a mormon. with all the southern baptist down here, it is sometimes very hard for mormons to get jobs. it happens everywhere.

i take my church pill every sunday and i am good for a week!

seriously my beliefs are that, at once there were greater powers in the universe. they created the univers and they still exist, but do not, or cannot influence any of what happens in their creation. i feel they had used all of their energy to create the universe. and have not influenced anything in it since they have created it...the creation point is commonly refered to as the big bang.

[Atkins]

Originally posted by speedyquad
i take my church pill every sunday and i am good for a week!

seriously my beliefs are that, at once there were greater powers in the universe. they created the univers and they still exist, but do not, or cannot influence any of what happens in their creation. i feel they had used all of their energy to create the universe. and have not influenced anything in it since they have created it...the creation point is commonly refered to as the big bang. Do you believe these greater powers were like "beings" of some sort, kind of like Gods that could think and whatnot or are you saying that these powers were energy sources or gigantic masses that collided or something?

Me and my father used to believe that the Big Bang was a never ending cycle. And after it happened, eventually it will suck itself in again and there will be another Big Bang. That theory went out the window when they found out that the universe is accelerating apart from itself. There is either some kind of matter exerting negative gravitational forces inbetween galaxies, or space is actually growing. I personally believe space is growing in between galaxies.

But with that said, since scientists have proven that the universe is accelerating apart from itself, that means that the Big Bang was a one time deal.

[theTman]

if there is a God....why havent they found his skeleton...or the cross he was "nailed" to....or whoever got nailed to the cross, im not saying there isnt a God, im just confused and dont know what to belive

[JOEX]

Originally posted by theTman
if there is a God....why havent they found his skeleton...or the cross he was "nailed" to....or whoever got nailed to the cross, im not saying there isnt a God, im just confused and dont know what to belive
'God' wasn't on the cross, that was Jesus. Many refer to Jesus as the Lord tough.

[theTman]

Originally posted by JOEX
'God' wasn't on the cross, that was Jesus. Many refer to Jesus as the Lord tough.

eh see how much i kno lol

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by theTman
if there is a God....why havent they found his skeleton...or the cross he was "nailed" to....or whoever got nailed to the cross, im not saying there isnt a God, im just confused and dont know what to belive

They haven't found Jimmy Hoffa's body, either, but that didn't mean he never existed.

[stiffy]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
Stiffy, you mentioned your views on the Mormon Church, but you did not mention your views on religion.

Outside of the Mormon Church, what do you believe?

I really don't believe in any god but I'm not saying one doesn't exist I just try to be honest and kind to everyone ( even the mormon people around here ) What comes around goes around I guess. Whenever I do think of god though I think of the Simpsons where god is sitting on a cloud being fed popcorn chicken by the Colonel and Jesus is depressed swinging on a swing.:)

[pastfast125]

if you are curios, about the not finding his body, the stry is, he died on the cross...was put in a tomb, his body actually was in the tomb, then rose to life 3 days later, (the true meaning behind easter)...after he rose and showed people he really was a live again, he ascended into heaven.

[Atkins]

Yea, so Jesus was the only one whos body ascended into heaven with him, right? Thats why theres no corpse?

[honda350r]

http://www.exmormon.org/

Recovery from Mormonism

A site for those who are

Questioning their faith in the Mormon Church

And for those who need support

As they transition their lives to

a normal life.

We are not affiliated with any religion

and we do not advocate any religion

[Atkins]

Alright, but if you're a Christian, or Athiest, or whatever.....what led you to believe in what you believe? What thought pattern and what logic?

[trx400exxracer]

Originally posted by honda350r
http://www.exmormon.org/

Recovery from Mormonism

A site for those who are

Questioning their faith in the Mormon Church

And for those who need support

As they transition their lives to

a normal life.

We are not affiliated with any religion

and we do not advocate any religion

Hey honda350r what do you actually believe in or are you still doing research and such:confused:

[duke416ex]

Originally posted by Atkins
Yea, so Jesus was the only one whos body ascended into heaven with him, right? Thats why theres no corpse?

I believe there was one other person who ascended into heaven, but I don't have a bible in front of me to find the verse.

[AtvMxRider]

I believe there is a God. But I don't think you have to go to church every sunday or worship him for him to love you. I know just about every sunday at the racetrack they have a morning prayer and practically shove him down your throat and I do not like that at all. Like I said I don't believe you have to worship him for him to love you.

[hessianmx111]

Originally posted by AtvMxRider
I believe there is a God. But I don't think you have to go to church every sunday or worship him for him to love you. I know just about every sunday at the racetrack they have a morning prayer and practically shove him down your throat and I do not like that at all. Like I said I don't believe you have to worship him for him to love you.
You prety much summed up everything I believe in, I don't really know why you have to go to church every sunday to pray, when you could just do it on your own. My grandpa is a big into the catholic religion, he even gives 10% of his pay to the church and I have never really understood that, but it's his money. I guess I would be classified as catholic, I was baptized in a catholic church and had my first communion, but I probably haven't been to a church in 4 years or more. I don't see how a guy that isn't allowed to be married or never really leaves his home should tell me how to live my life, and how do people know the Bible isn't just some book some random guy wrote a long time ago? There's so much I have to say about this but I don't feel like typing it all right now. I just try to live my life the best I can, and whatever happens after death happens, I don't want to live my life in fear and constant worry that I will go to hell, like I said I just try to be the best person I can.

[Robin Hood]

Although I'm mostly Athiest, I do believe something is up there. Just the whole big bang theory and the bible both don't add up for me. I stay kinda in between on this one. :p

[Atkins]

Well I believe that life is for learning and its perfectly fine to not have everything figured out from the day you're born.

I also dont like the idea of the catholic church forcing down your throat that you need to go to church every Sunday if you want to go to heaven. That just seems to me like them trying to keep power over you and a way for them to get your $$.

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by Atkins
That just seems to me like them trying to keep power over you and a way for them to get your $$.


What really burns my *** is when they pass around the collection plate. It is almost like you have to pay to go to church.

[honduh440]

imagine if their was no such thing as religion or anything remotely close to it and one day u were out walking your dog and a guy came up to you and told you about this so called "god".......... would u slap him too?

[Atkins]

Well, I would ask him to give me some proof of his existance. If I dont have proof, then why should I believe him? Because I should have "faith"? Faith in something that you havent given me any evidence even exists? I dont see the logic in that.

Maybe some dude saw Jesus turn water into wine a few thousand years ago, maybe they were too drunk and thought they were drinking more wine, i dont know. But what I do know is that he hasnt done anything since then so theres no reason for me to believe hes real.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by AtvMxRider
What really burns my *** is when they pass around the collection plate. It is almost like you have to pay to go to church.

some "churches" expect 10% of your income:p


i heard something the other day that pretty much asked, what one man is so well know, respected and loved that in 2000+ years he is still worshiped and converesed about daily:confused:

Alright, here's what I believe. Basically, I don't know what I believe. To me the theory of evolution makes more sense to me then some guy making everything. I mean there is no possible way to prove if there's a God or not, but evolution there is. I mean think about it, we start off as single celled organisms and over billions of years they just evolved into like bugs, fish, plants etc. Why do we have a tailbone? We don't have tails. But a lot of primates do. So as you can tell I believe in evolution more than anything.
What if there is life on other planets, is the same God that you believe in the God of the other life? And what about other religions? I just find it really hard to believe that "something" out of no where just created everything. Where did that "something"(God) come from?
In the other thread someone said " there's no proof to back up the theory of evolution." So wheres the proof to back up God and everything like that? Exactly, besides the Bible which any random person could write, there is none.

I don't know, this stuff is too confusing, I just have a hard time believing the whole God thing.

I hate how the catholic religion said animals have no concious, yet we are and came from animals... lol

[honda350r]

http://www.stupidwish.net/religion.html

The problem is not what your religion tells you to believe, but how it tells you to believe -- that is, it tells you that you can -- no -- must believe in the absence of the type of evidence that you're used to demanding out of life. In fact, your salvation depends on believing without evidence -- skepticism will actually damn you to hell for all eternity.

You: "Well, it looks like a dog and it barks."
Your Religion: "It's a cat."
You: "Are you sure? I think it's a dog."
Your Religion: "Do you want to burn for all eternity?"
You: "Oh, right. It's a cat."

Me: "My book says that women who learn to read should be stoned to death."
You: "That's barbaric! It's bad for women, who have natural rights guaranteed by my constitution! It's unfair! It's cruel! Think about it!"
Me: "So what? You believe that Moses talked to an invisible man in space through a burning bush, and you're telling me that I can't believe what I want because it doesn't make sense? Who are you to tell me I'm nuts? Go to hell, infidel."


If you want to read more click the link!!

[honduh440]

thats cool

[honda350r]

What good has religion ever done for any of us? None. In fact, if there was no religion, the world would definitely be a much better place. Religion has caused some of the bloodiest wars, the most bitter arguments, and the most blatant greed ever known on this planet. What good could possibly come from believing in an invisible force that, by nature, can fail at any time? All the good in peoples lives are commonly attributed to god's goodness - and all the bad is alluded to in vague remarks about some mysterious "grand plan" or that ******* lucifer. If these events appear to us to be random and that only an all-powerful being could be capable of understanding their significance, then what good is it believing in god when the world would be exactly the same without him?

[thearqa]

Wide is the gate but narrow is the path. Ever hear of it? Where do you think that you fit in? Do you think that you have come up with a theory that no one else has come up with before? Many people think the exact same way that you do, but saddly the way of reasoning that you have, is not going to keep you out of eternal separation from GOD. May GOD have mercy on you and show himself to you so that you may come to know him.

[stiffy]

I read this on a bumper sticker " If money is the root of all evil why do churches beg for it? " There is a joke around here about the Utah state quarter and how it has a hole in the middle ( that's the 10% already taken out )

[pastfast125]

I hate my computer, I just spent like 10 mins typing a like full page responce, and my screen just randomly dissapeared. I'll get back to it later on or tomorrow.

[250xdude]

Okay, here goes, what we have discovered about the universe the past 10,20,30 years has been overwelming.

There was a big bang, the universe is forever expanding, this planet happened to be just far enough away from the sun to maintain liquid water so that evolution could do it's thing "so to speak",
Now enter time, billions of years to grow out from the same dna creating many forms of life, that evolve to fit it's survival in their climate, (Darwin, natural selection),
but out of all the different life forms in all that time, humans came along recently,(after the dinousaurs were wiped out from a big comet, and mammals had a chance to thrive), and became the first technology advanced species to emerge, and here we are.

Is there life elsewhere? Yes, technology advanced? perhaps, sure would like to find out in my lifetime.
Do I believe in afterlife? It would be something to look foward to, but no.
Sad? Yes, but I'm at peace with it.

Originally posted by 250xdude
Okay, here goes, what we have discovered about the universe the past 10,20,30 years has been overwelming.

There was a big bang, the universe is forever expanding, this planet happened to be just far enough away from the sun to maintain liquid water so that evolution could do it's thing "so to speak",
Now enter time, billions of years to grow out from the same dna creating many forms of life, that evolve to fit it's survival in their climate, (Darwin, natural selection),
but out of all the different life forms in all that time, humans came along recently,(after the dinousaurs were wiped out from a big comet, and mammals had a chance to thrive), and became the first technology advanced species to emerge, and here we are.

Is there life elsewhere? Yes, technology advanced? perhaps, sure would like to find out in my lifetime.
Do I believe in afterlife? It would be something to look foward to, but no.
Sad? Yes, but I'm at peace with it.

Exactly what I was trying to say.

Now forgot about how when you were a little kid and you went to Sunday school and church and all that stuff, and didn't know anything about any religion. So you hear that theory then you hear the theory of God(that some "force" created all life) and all that. What sounds more realistic?

[Samson]

Originally posted by Atkins
When you said several different sides of religion, you meant sides of christianity, correct?

Mormon's are not Christian as they do not believe in the Trinity or that Jesus is God.

What is a sure sign of a non-Christian cult? A group that develops their own "doctrine" that directly contradicts the bible. This includes, Mormons, Jehovas Witness, Muslims and even Catholics. Why do I believe that the bible is the only true and accurate account? Because of fulfilled prophecy.

"The Old Testament was written before Jesus was ever born. The New Testament was written by the men who knew Jesus, who walked with Him, ate with Him, and learned from Him. In the O.T. there are prophecies concerning His birthplace (Micah 5:1-2), that He would be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14), that He would be rejected by His own people (Isaiah 53:3), that He would be betrayed by a close friend (Isaiah 41:9), that He would die by having His hands and feet pierced (Psalm 22:16-18), and that He would rise from the dead (Psalm 16:10, 49:15). In the N.T. all these prophecies, and many more, are fulfilled by Jesus. Now, this is the question you must answer: "If the Bible is not inspired from God, then why does it have so many fulfilled prophecies?" How is that possible if the Bible were not from God? Only God knows the future, has power over it, and can look into it to tell us exactly what will happen. In the Bible we have the finger prints of God: fulfilled prophecy!"

[wilkin250r]

Ever try to explain your existence to a dog? Sure, he can perk his ears, but does he really understand what you're saying?

What makes you think you can even comprehend GOD, if he so chose to "prove" his existence? Likewise, what makes you think you can understand his methods? His tools?

Heck, we can't even comprehend ourselves. We are able to figure out that our brains use patterns of electrical impulses, but we can't duplicate or predict those patterns. We don't know what causes certain illnesses (cancer), or the complexities of the first months of conception, when all your organs develop from a single cell.

If you can't even comprehend your own existence, how in the world are you going to understand something even more complicated?

[Samson]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
Exactly what I was trying to say.

Now forgot about how when you were a little kid and you went to Sunday school and church and all that stuff, and didn't know anything about any religion. So you hear that theory then you hear the theory of God(that some "force" created all life) and all that. What sounds more realistic?

You guys can believe you're a monkey's uncle if you want. Personally, I think THAT sounds ludicrous. And the truth is you guys were never taught the evidence for creation because its not allowed in the classroom.

[zeppelin]

i am a pretty big christian, but i am not one of those god freaks, i dont really think that the bible is God's word though, because it was written by humans so there is human flaw in it, i believe that the bible was heavily influence by God but not all of it is entirely true. out of all the people that wrote the books in the new testatament and all the people that have ever translated the bible from one language to another you know that a few people had to have thrown extra in there or leave out an important fact. i also have a problem with church, and no offense to any one but particularly the catholic church. the catholic church says that you must recieve catholic comunion or you will go to hell. and you must be a member of the catholic church and pay 10% of your paycheck every month to be a member. so because i am a methodist and beleive in almost the same exact things as the catholics do and i live my life just a well or even better than most catholics i will never make it into heaven. and another thing the bible only says that you only need to give 10% of your tax money to the church, most people do not know this though because minister's are usualy the only one that learn stuff like this and they wont tell you because youll give less money afterwards

[Samson]

Originally posted by zeppelin
it was written by humans so there is human flaw in it, i believe that the bible was heavily influence by God but not all of it is entirely true. out of all the people that wrote the books in the new testatament and all the people that have ever translated the bible from one language to another you know that a few people had to have thrown extra in there or leave out an important fact.

Actually, you can feel assured that the new testament is pretty darn accurate. Much of it was taken from actual letters. Between the numerous manuscripts, there just isn't much room for error. 2000 years really isn't that long of a time in a literary sense. And a good bible will tell you if something's added for clarification and if a word could be translated to english in different ways. This allows the reader to decide what interpretation is correct.

[Atkins]

Originally posted by Samson
You guys can believe you're a monkey's uncle if you want. Personally, I think THAT sounds ludicrous. And the truth is you guys were never taught the evidence for creation because its not allowed in the classroom.

Logically step by step evolution makes sense scietificaly, mathematically, physically, biologically....etc. Find one acclaimed scientist or biologist that doesnt believe in evelution, you wont.

Dont take this personally, but I feel that those that cant comprehend evelution are just too undereducated or are just brainwashed by their religion into not even questioning christianity.

[ktyfz]

I was born and raised Mormon my entire life. Married in the temple, paid my tithing, held a calling and lived the straight and narrow until I discovered the truth. Mormonism is a complete lie. I have since resigned from the Church and consider myself a Christian, but I do question pieces of the bible. Any Mormon out there should know Joseph Smith was a lieing, womenizing, *******. My only advice to you is learn the truth of Mormonism and get the hell out! Here are some good sites to get you started or do yourself a favor and buy Grant Palmers book "An Insiders View to the Mormon Origin".

http://trialsofascension.net/mormon.html
http://www.factnet.org/cults/Mormon/James_David_Sitemap.html
http://home.teleport.com/~packham/#MORMONISM
http://www.exmormon.org
http://www.irr.org/mit
http://www.carm.org/mormon.htm

[Samson]

Originally posted by Atkins
Logically step by step evolution makes sense scietificaly, mathematically, physically, biologically....etc. Find one acclaimed scientist or biologist that doesnt believe in evelution, you wont.

Dont take this personally, but I feel that those that cant comprehend evelution are just too undereducated or are just brainwashed by their religion into not even questioning christianity.

Oh really? Please educate me. Did an essay on evolution and variation of species in my younger years. Not even Darwin was convinced of his own theories. Science you can test and observe. Evolution you can not. Every one of Darwin's theories can be explained by genetics.


Problems with evolution:

1) Evolution would be a constant. There would be no need to find a missing link because they'd be all around us unless you believe in random sparatic mutations that take place all accross the board of a given species all at the same time.

2) Prove spontaneous generation. You can't create something from nothing.

[ktyfz]

Originally posted by Samson
Oh really? Please educate me. Did an essay on evolution and variation of species in my younger years. Not even Darwin was convinced of his own theories. Science you can test and observe. Evolution you can not. Every one of Darwin's theories can be explained by genetics.


Problems with evolution:

1) Evolution would be a constant. There would be no need to find a missing link because they'd be all around us unless you believe in random sparatic mutations that take place all accross the board of a given species all at the same time.

2) Prove spontaneous generation. You can't create something from nothing.

One thing I've wondered on evolution (not saying I believe or disbelief in it), but wouldn't evolution mean we as humans today will eventually form into something more then we currently are? In 10,000 years will there be another species of humans?

[Samson]

Originally posted by ktyfz
One thing I've wondered on evolution (not saying I believe or disbelief in it), but wouldn't evolution mean we as humans today will eventually form into something more then we currently are? In 10,000 years will there be another species of humans?

Yes and their adaptive mutating bodies will then require cheesburgers and beer for nurishment. :D

[250xdude]

Originally posted by Samson
You guys can believe you're a monkey's uncle if you want. Personally, I think THAT sounds ludicrous. And the truth is you guys were never taught the evidence for creation because its not allowed in the classroom.

I went to a catholic school for 8 years, went to church 6 days a week without fail my whole childhood, then went through more teachings when I converted to lutheran before I reached my conclusion.

What evidence is there for creation, I thought it was all faith?

[ktyfz]

Originally posted by Samson
Yes and their adaptive mutating bodies will then require cheesburgers and beer for nurishment. :D

Man .. why couldn't I have been born 10,000 years from now :devil:

[Samson]

Originally posted by 250xdude
I went to a catholic school for 8 years, went to church 6 days a week without fail my whole childhood, then went through more teachings when I converted to lutheran before I reached my conclusion.

What evidence is there for creation, I thought it was all faith?

Lot's of sites, lots of books, lots of theories that are just as valid as what you're taught in school but support the bible. Best thing you can do is start questioning what you think you know. Compare evidence or lack of evidence to what you've been taught.

I guess one thing that stands out at me is evolution teaches us we should see an increase in the number of species yet it's very easy to observe the opposite happening in nature.

[wilkin250r]

Here is the problem I see with evolution:

Dinosaurs were around for millions upon millions of years. How did we, in a few thousand years, evolve from hairy apes to upright and highly intelligent human beings?

How did we accomplish, in a few thousand years, what couldn't be accomplished in millions of years before us? Why aren't there other species to evolve into highly intelligent beings? Certainly that intelligence would be a positive trait for survival, breeding, and natural selection, which are the methods of evolution.

[ktyfz]

Dinosaurs were around for millions upon millions of years. How did we, in a few thousand years, evolve from hairy apes to upright and highly intelligent human beings?

Mormons have the answer for you. You see the earth is only a little over 6,000 years old (that's what Joseph Smith told us). So logically Dinosaurs lived on other planets. God formed Earth from other planets and is the reason why there are Dinosaur bones. After all, Joseph Smith couldn't be wrong now could he :rolleyes:

[Atkins]

Originally posted by ktyfz
One thing I've wondered on evolution (not saying I believe or disbelief in it), but wouldn't evolution mean we as humans today will eventually form into something more then we currently are? In 10,000 years will there be another species of humans? Well evelution relies on survival of the fittest, and since even our weak survive because our species is so advanced, no.

When random mutations occur(such as crab hands or webbed toes) 99.999% of the time they dont help the species or more often than not hinder the mutated and they die off. The mutated gene dies off, and it goes in the books as another failed genetic mishap. But every once in a while a mutation occurs that, for instance, cause a species to blend in more uniformly with its environment. This causes the mutated species to be able to avoid predators more easily. It has become better than the species it has evolved from and lives longer and bears more young than most of its species. Therefore it is given the oppurtunity to pass on its deformed genes that have helped it through life.

So: Those that genetically mutate negatively die off or are eaten more easily by their prey.
Those who genetically mutate and gain an advantage in life reproduce more and eventually overtake the original species.

Survival of the fittest. When a fitter subspecies mutates, the lesser one doesnt survive(i.e. Neanderthal Man) or still survives as its own species(i.e. Gorillas)

You have to remember, this occurs very very slowly over millions upon millions of years. But there are documented cases of evelution occuring in front of our eyes. One of these cases was these white butterflies that used to live in London during the 1800's. This was during the time period when coal was becoming more prominent in fireplaces, and soot covered chimney stacks. The white butterflies were getting eaten like crazy by birds because they were so easy to spot in contrast to the black soot. One day, randomly, a black butterfly was born due to a genetic mutation. The black butterfly did not get eaten because it could not be spotted as easily so the birds continued to go after the white ones. This butterfly thrived and bred until one day, the last of the easy-to-kill white butterflies died off and only black ones were left. True story, but thats just one example of documented evelution.

[Atkins]

Originally posted by Samson
I guess one thing that stands out at me is evolution teaches us we should see an increase in the number of species yet it's very easy to observe the opposite happening in nature.

Not true. When a more adapted species mutates, the weaker and less adapted usually dies off.

[ktyfz]

Originally posted by Atkins
When random mutations occur(such as crab hands or webbed toes) 99.999% of the time they dont help the species or more often than not hinder the mutated and they die off.

Interesting you brought up web toes because I had never thought about that. My wife actually has two webbed toes on one foot, her dad has it on the same foot, and so does his dad. Here's what's strange now that you say this ... one of my sons has the exact same toes webbed but on both feet (my wifes is only one one foot). My other two sons have small webbed toes just like my first son, only they don't go up as far as my first sons or my wifes. This could be an indication that the gene is dieing out since my younger sons are losing the mutation?? Or may be my offspring in 10,000 years will be ducks :)

[Atkins]

I think it has something to do with it probably being a recessive gene in your wife, so your equivelant gene is overtaking it, but im wicked rusty in that stuff.

I think thats one of those random mutations that doesnt help us, but doesnt hinder us either. Those are the mutations that tend to linger through history because theres no reason for them to die off.

[BLACKeR]

just a couple things. for those that say the bible is just a good story that can teach us things and is not literally gods word. if it is not gods word, then many of the things in there are just plain nuts. if jesus was not the son of god who died for our sins he wasnt a great teacher, of a wise thinker he was a nut job. what wise teacher, thinks he is the son of god? what book that just teaches us some good lessons. makes the claims that the bible makes? if you read any other book that made the same claims you wouldnt say its a good book for teaching us. so then why do all these people believe it? why have so many people died for it? simple answer because they felt gods pressance and knew it was real. there is not a logical explanation for anything in this world. no scientist can or ever has proved evolution. evolution didnt even become an idea till rescently. do you mean to tell me that 400 years ago people couldnt find any evidence that all life evolved? but 100 years ago they could? all darwin did was see goofy animals and plants. people had seen those same things thousands of times before. why cant we understand god? why doesnt he make logical sence to us? for the same reason your computer doesnt know any dates past what its programed to know. your computer doesnt know anything it hasnt been programed to recognize. your computer doesnt know how it was made? or when it was made. it knows what its creator told it. likewise we know only what our creator has told us. you cannot understand god because you are his creation. we are simple humans who cannot even figure out the weather. we couldnt make it rain tomorrow if we wanted to. in the end there are only 2 gods in this world. there is God the creator of this universe or there is you a human. evolution is simply making you the god your now the creator of your own destiny. you control your life. i believe in the one and only god of the universe. if you are your own god. make it rain in oklahoma tomorrow. make it snow up here for me. and keep yourself alive and free from harm for the next 100 years. and for those that think religion creates war go say hello to the people who thinks guns creat violence, poverty creats crime. and flies cause meat to rot.

[Atkins]

Im not sure what your thought pattern is, so you might need to help me out a bit. You're saying that if evolution is real, I can make it rain in Oklahoma? Could you explain why you think that evelution causes one to make it rain in Oklahoma?

[BLACKeR]

The black butterfly did not get eaten because it could not be spotted as easily so the birds continued to go after the white ones. This butterfly thrived and bred until one day, the last of the easy-to-kill white butterflies died off and only black ones were left. True story, but thats just one example of documented evelution.

except the black butterflies were the same exact animal the white butterflies were. nothing evolved, one color just got eaten more. if you read the rest of that story you would know that the white butterflies are still out there. and depending on where they live and what the coloring is of the area one color is more prominent than the other.

Originally posted by Samson

2) Prove spontaneous generation. You can't create something from nothing.


OK so...how did "God" create everything? Answer that. Where did "God" come from? Answer that too... Well you can't.
I went to church and CCD(Sunday school) when I was younger, and the whole time I thought it was total bullsiht. I just cant see some guy or w.e God is just chilling some where and creating everything.
This is what I think, that around the time when the Bible was written and stuff, the people were asking the same questions and no one could answer them. So someone just made up the religion for people to believe. You guys do know there are other religions with different beliefs and stuff. So does that make them wrong? Are they instantly going to ''hell''?

[Atkins]

Originally posted by BLACKeR
except the black butterflies were the same exact animal the white butterflies were. nothing evolved, one color just got eaten more. if you read the rest of that story you would know that the white butterflies are still out there. and depending on where they live and what the coloring is of the area one color is more prominent than the other.
The white butterfly and the black butterfly have a different genetic makeup, they are not "the same with a different color". And I have researched that topic and the white butterflies did die off in the London area while the black ones survived.

[honda350r]

Originally posted by ktyfz
I was born and raised Mormon my entire life. Married in the temple, paid my tithing, held a calling and lived the straight and narrow until I discovered the truth. Mormonism is a complete lie. I have since resigned from the Church and consider myself a Christian, but I do question pieces of the bible. Any Mormon out there should know Joseph Smith was a lieing, womenizing, *******. My only advice to you is learn the truth of Mormonism and get the hell out! Here are some good sites to get you started or do yourself a favor and buy Grant Palmers book "An Insiders View to the Mormon Origin".




Did your marrage survive when you found out the chuch is not true?

Most TBMs (True Believing Mormons) wives are totally sucked into that crap and will leave their husbands when they find out their spouse no longer believes!

good for you on getting out of that cult !!!

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
You guys do know there are other religions with different beliefs and stuff. So does that make them wrong? Are they instantly going to ''hell''?

Who says they are "wrong"?

The first commandment says "I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

God is talking to his people, those he brought out of slavery ( you know, the whole dead-sea, moses parts the water, wander the desert scenario). God never says that other gods do not exist, but he instructs his followers not to worship them.

http://www.dragnix.net/From_tail_to_snout/Theory_of_Evolution/evo1.jpg

See the resemblance?


Kind of written for little kids..But hmm, makes sence
http://www.tparents.org/Library/Unification/Books/EvolTheo/EvolTheo-02.gif

http://www.avalon.net/~kponto/ponto/evolution.jpg

Serouisly, how hard is that to belive? It makes perfect sense.

Now heres what I think of the whole God created everything thing...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid198/pe5527f9b59e17713c7e7419e461741ea/f0bad884.jpg

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
http://www.dragnix.net/From_tail_to_snout/Theory_of_Evolution/evo1.jpg

See the resemblance?


Kind of written for little kids..But hmm, makes sence
http://www.tparents.org/Library/Unification/Books/EvolTheo/EvolTheo-02.gif

http://www.avalon.net/~kponto/ponto/evolution.jpg

Serouisly, how hard is that to belive? It makes perfect sense.

Now heres what I think of the whole God created everything thing...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid198/pe5527f9b59e17713c7e7419e461741ea/f0bad884.jpg

Originally posted by wilkin250r
Who says they are "wrong"?

The first commandment says "I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

God is talking to his people, those he brought out of slavery ( you know, the whole dead-sea, moses parts the water, wander the desert scenario). God never says that other gods do not exist, but he instructs his followers not to worship them.

So basically, there's a whole bunch of Gods just chilling up in space?

[Atkins]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
So basically, there's a whole bunch of Gods just chilling up in space? Just as logical as 1 God chillin' up there in space. Although neither scenarios are logical.

[SGA]

Originally posted by Atkins
Although neither scenarios are logical.

Religion and logic do not fit well together :o

[tw1976]

Didn't anyone ever tell you guys the two things not to discuss with friends are politics and religion. Good way to piss someone off, lol.

[Samson]

Originally posted by Atkins One of these cases was these white butterflies that used to live in London during the 1800's. This was during the time period when coal was becoming more prominent in fireplaces, and soot covered chimney stacks. The white butterflies were getting eaten like crazy by birds because they were so easy to spot in contrast to the black soot. One day, randomly, a black butterfly was born due to a genetic mutation. The black butterfly did not get eaten because it could not be spotted as easily so the birds continued to go after the white ones. This butterfly thrived and bred until one day, the last of the easy-to-kill white butterflies died off and only black ones were left. True story, but thats just one example of documented evelution. [/B]

what you just described is genetics, not mutations. I have brown eyes, my wife has gray eyes, my kids have hazel eyes. That's not mutation. Its dominant and dormant dna traits. No more no less than what was passed on by their parents.

[Samson]

Originally posted by Atkins
Not true. When a more adapted species mutates, the weaker and less adapted usually dies off.

If that was the case, the first species would not have survived and branched out into thousands of species. :rolleyes:

[Samson]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
OK so...how did "God" create everything? Answer that. Where did "God" come from? Answer that too... Well you can't.
I went to church and CCD(Sunday school) when I was younger, and the whole time I thought it was total bullsiht. I just cant see some guy or w.e God is just chilling some where and creating everything.
This is what I think, that around the time when the Bible was written and stuff, the people were asking the same questions and no one could answer them. So someone just made up the religion for people to believe. You guys do know there are other religions with different beliefs and stuff. So does that make them wrong? Are they instantly going to ''hell''?

He created man from dust and he's has always been. Alpha and Omega. You didn't pay much attention, huh? :p

I believe there are other cults but one God. Dozens of authors from all parts over hundreds of years just happen to write one book that all ties together, yet you say it's not inspired by God. There is no other book like the bible.

[Samson]

This is a good example of how the so-called scientific missing links are made. Scientists take a fraction of some skeleton that they have no idea what ist is, paste the itty-bitty pieces together and are basically using their imagination to make a new creature up.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/325000/images/_326037_skull150.jpg

No joke, one "missing link" was created soley from what turned out to be a single pig's tooth. :ermm:

[Lurch]

I am a born-again Christian also.

[ktyfz]

Originally posted by honda350r
Did your marrage survive when you found out the chuch is not true?

Most TBMs (True Believing Mormons) wives are totally sucked into that crap and will leave their husbands when they find out their spouse no longer believes!

good for you on getting out of that cult !!!

Yea we survived. It was tough, but we made it and my wife is no longer a TBM. Facts don't lie and yes it is very much a cult.

[ktyfz]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
So basically, there's a whole bunch of Gods just chilling up in space?

If you ask a Mormon the answer is YES! Mormons believe the God of this earth lives on a planet near the star Kolob, which is the brightest star there is, the sun draws its energy from the star Kolob. STUPID CULT!!!!

Originally posted by ktyfz
If you ask a Mormon the answer is YES! Mormons believe the God of this earth lives on a planet near the star Kolob, which is the brightest star there is, the sun draws its energy from the star Kolob. STUPID CULT!!!!

And you believed this stuff?:huh

[ktyfz]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
And you believed this stuff?:huh

HELL NO .. go read my first post on page 4

[user101]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
Alright, here's what I believe. Basically, I don't know what I believe. To me the theory of evolution makes more sense to me then some guy making everything. I mean there is no possible way to prove if there's a God or not, but evolution there is. I mean think about it, we start off as single celled organisms and over billions of years they just evolved into like bugs, fish, plants etc. Why do we have a tailbone? We don't have tails. But a lot of primates do. So as you can tell I believe in evolution more than anything.
What if there is life on other planets, is the same God that you believe in the God of the other life? And what about other religions? I just find it really hard to believe that "something" out of no where just created everything. Where did that "something"(God) come from?
In the other thread someone said " there's no proof to back up the theory of evolution." So wheres the proof to back up God and everything like that? Exactly, besides the Bible which any random person could write, there is none.

I don't know, this stuff is too confusing, I just have a hard time believing the whole God thing.

the problem with the evolution theory is that single cell organism had to come from sumthin. it didnt just appear one day.

Originally posted by user101
the problem with the evolution theory is that single cell organism had to come from sumthin. it didnt just appear one day.


So then where did god come from?

[user101]

God is eternity. Past,present, and future.

Originally posted by user101
God is eternity. Past,present, and future.

:huh

[LTandRaptorider]

Originally posted by user101
God is eternity. Past,present, and future.

Not to be confused with the Ghost of Christmas past-present-future! :eek: :D :devil:

[hondarider2500]

ya you cant question single cell organisms like that and then come up with a mumbo jumbo answer like that.

[user101]

beleive what you want...i have no problem with what you beleive. I'm not the one who will be burning for eternity when I die.

[user101]

Originally posted by hondarider2500
ya you cant question single cell organisms like that and then come up with a mumbo jumbo answer like that.

it's not mumbo jumbo, it's in the Bible(a book that you need to read)

[user101]

Originally posted by LTandRaptorider
Not to be confused with the Ghost of Christmas past-present-future! :eek: :D :devil:

wtf is ur problem?

[LTandRaptorider]

Originally posted by user101
wtf is ur problem?

YOU have a problem?

Now go have some cheese with your whine. ;)

Then read some more of that good book you think everyone else should read. If you like it, fine. But do NOT try to force your beliefs down someone else's throat. ;)

[250xdude]

Originally posted by user101
the problem with the evolution theory is that single cell organism had to come from sumthin. it didnt just appear one day.

Early Evolution
The most complex evolution of life, and the most likely, took place long before the hominid appeared. It was a billion years after life appeared before the cell. It was the cell which become the basis for all modern life forms.


The evolution of life from its beginning through the development of the metazoa (primitive multicellular organisms) took billions of years. The earth's atmosphere did not contain oxygen when the earth formed 4.6 billion years ago. This reducing environment provided favorable conditions for the natural synthesis of the first organic compounds. The first phospholipid bilayer membranes formed along with primitive RNA and DNA genetic molecules. The membranes adsorbed proteins and the hereditary DNA/RNA material. From these organic molecules, the first primitive prokaryote (simple single cell organism lacking a nucleus) arose. Natural selection began.

The carbon dioxide in our atmosphere contains both 12C and 13C isotopes. When the carbon atoms of CO2 are captured by organisms in photosynthesis, the organisms show a definite preference for the light 12C isotope of carbon. They will incorporate the 12C isotope into the proteins, sugars, and other molecules that they synthesize preferentially to the heavier 13C isotope. Rocks that are 3.4 billion years old have been discovered which are enriched with the 12C isotope. The concentration of the 12C isotope shows the presence of photosynthesis. These early photosynthetic organisms used H2S as a source of hydrogen atoms instead of water and did not produce oxygen as a by-product.

Ancient sediments are found which are rich in iron (Fe2+) as water soluble compounds. Beginning at about 2.5 billion years ago, the sediments began showing iron oxides containing Fe3+ ions that were not water soluble. This shows that the atmosphere had changed from a reducing environment to an oxidizing one where oxygen was present. The oxygen in the atmosphere appears to have been generated by living organisms carrying out oxygen-producing photosynthesis. These newer organisms could obtain hydrogen by breaking down water instead of H2S to produce the hydrogen needed to synthesize carbon compounds. As a by-product of breaking down water, oxygen gas is formed.

In the next billion years following the evolution of aerobic photosynthesizing bacteria, the first cells arose which had lost the ability to carry out photosynthesis and thus the ability to manufacture their own food from inorganic material. These cells relied on organic material (other life) as their source of food. The food chain was begun.

About 1.3 billion years ago the first eukaryote (a single cell organism with a complex inner structure) which contained many internal organelles such as mitochondria appeared, having evolved from the prokaryote. From the eukaryote, the multicellular metazoa (shown at left) evolved about 680 million years ago. All modern complex life developed from these.


Once complex organisms began evolving, the DNA became quite complex.

Originally posted by user101
it's not mumbo jumbo, it's in the Bible(a book that you need to read)

You've GOT TO BE KIDDING ME. Are you serious? You want to know how a single celled organism gets somewhere, but your explanation for god is "past present future". What the hell is that? It still doesn't answer anything, if anything it just makes evolution look better. And "its non mambo jumbo its the Bible" How do you know some random guy just wrote the bible as a bunch of stories and then some people took it way to far.
Quoted from your self, "believe what you want to believe" Well I don't believe in the bible, yet you tell me to read it, that I NEED to read it? Are you serious?:rolleyes:


I win.

[Samson]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
So then where did god come from?

Not only did a single cell organism have to appear suddenly, but it had to be capable of sustaining it's on life and creating life through reproduction. Too complex for random chance.

[Samson]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
You've GOT TO BE KIDDING ME. Are you serious? You want to know how a single celled organism gets somewhere, but your explanation for god is "past present future". What the hell is that? It still doesn't answer anything, if anything it just makes evolution look better. And "its non mambo jumbo its the Bible" How do you know some random guy just wrote the bible as a bunch of stories and then some people took it way to far.
Quoted from your self, "believe what you want to believe" Well I don't believe in the bible, yet you tell me to read it, that I NEED to read it? Are you serious?:rolleyes:


I win.

It means he's always been. Personally, I believe he created the concept of time. We measure it by revolutions of the earth and sun. But what does that amount to for a being that's immortal and isn't restricted to earth?

[honda350r]

Originally posted by Samson
It means he's always been. Personally, I believe he created the concept of time. We measure it by revolutions of the earth and sun. But what does that amount to for a being that's immortal and isn't restricted to earth?

How can you argue something if you always change the rules??

He is magic and can do anything:rolleyes:

If you beleive ,GREAT !!

Please don't push your hog wash on me or my family!!!

Originally posted by Samson
It means he's always been. Personally, I believe he created the concept of time. We measure it by revolutions of the earth and sun. But what does that amount to for a being that's immortal and isn't restricted to earth?


You still didnt answer my question, where did god come from?

I'm just trying to figure out, this piece of matter that exploded in the big bang, where the hell did it come from?

Now obviously, I don't care "that much" if I become non-existant after death, I mean it would be the same as before birth....

It's way to hard to comprehend all this crap in this pos body, there's no way...

I say we kill each other then bring everyone back to life like they did in that one movie... hehehe

[honda350r]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
You still didnt answer my question, where did god come from?

Just make up your own answer!! That is what has been done for the last 3000 years or so!!

Originally posted by kraz
I'm just trying to figure out, this piece of matter that exploded in the big bang, where the hell did it come from?


I'm still trying to figure where this random guy who can create universes and stuff came from?

[Samson]

Originally posted by honda350r
How can you argue something if you always change the rules??

He is magic and can do anything:rolleyes:

If you beleive ,GREAT !!

Please don't push your hog wash on me or my family!!!

What rules did I change? I thought this thread was about expressing our beliefs on religion, I must have misunderstood. But I do feel my beliefs are every bit as valid as any other. You can't prove there is not a God, why not accept that there may be?

Originally posted by nofearrider1
You still didnt answer my question, where did god come from?

The best way to think of it is that god came from no where, we are just humans, there is really no such thing as "time", we humans came up with it.... So you cant ask when god was made or where he came from.

get what I'm saying at all? lol


damn religion threads!!!!

[Samson]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
You still didnt answer my question, where did god come from?

H-E-L-L-O! He's always been! Alpha and Omega. "I am". Like i said, time is mortals concept.

[honda350r]

Originally posted by Samson
What rules did I change? I thought this thread was about expressing our beliefs on religion, I must have misunderstood. But I do feel my beliefs are every bit as valid as any other. You can't prove there is not a God, why not accept that there may be?

You are right this is about expressing your veiws on this subject..

What I mean is please keep your god out of public places, like PUBLIC SCHOOL!!!

Jesus freaks seem to think that I am doomed and it is your job to save me and my family!

Pay, Pray and Obey on your own time and own place !!

[Samson]

Originally posted by honda350r
You are right this is about expressing your veiws on this subject..

What I mean is please keep your god out of public places, like PUBLIC SCHOOL!!!

Jesus freaks seem to think that I am doomed and it is your job to save me and my family!

Pay, Pray and Obey on your own time and own place !!

It's a free country and I can pray anywhere I want. Sorry that offends you.

[Kennethyfz450]

I believe in God

God was never pushed on me, I sorta stumbled upon it. Here lately I have been backsliding which is a bad thing, and I am working on it.


EX Class of people #1 / class of people #2

#1The problem with most people is they like to claim they are christians. You can go to any topless bar and I am sure someone at the bar will claim the worship God and they are a christianwill say they are christians.


#2Then their is the class of people that really wants to walk in the right path and still goes to the bad places like the topless bar and get confused and meet up with the #1 group and that group talkes group number 2 that its ok somehow..

( I hope you all got that story its lacking a bit of detail)

I dont agree with the money. Its not that I am greedy because most of our money goes to mission trips and important causes. Its just hard to give it away when you worked so hard for it. :confused:

I am not perfect. I have ask God to forgive me all the time.More than I should, but I make the effort.

Will the effort take me anywhere? I'm sure it will

I think believing in God could be a lot stonger if people who really didn't believe in God didn't claim to be a Christian . So people who are on both sides of the fence will be less confussed.

I am done rambling.
:)

I hope that people see the light or just give in another shot if they been let down before. Remember just because you believe in God doesn't mean nothing bad will happen to you and your family or you will get rich.

[Samson]

I agree Kenneth. Just remember Christians are a work in progress. We're people like anybody else and have the same temptations. The hardest thing for me is trying to consistantly be a good influence on others. It's tough.

[honda350r]

Why is going to a topless bar bad???

Who made up these rules on what is good and bad ??

[Samson]

Originally posted by honda350r
Why is going to a topless bar bad???

Who made up these rules on what is good and bad ??

From a moral point of view, you might want to think about how your loved one's feel about it. I'd start out by asking your mama. Then your kids.

[honda350r]

Originally posted by Samson
From a moral point of view, you might want to think about how your loved one's feel about it. I'd start out by asking your mama. Then your kids.

What kind of morals did the pilots have that crashed into the world trade centers??

Remember they did for their GOD !!!

[Samson]

And you'll remember I consider Muslims a cult.

[honduh440]

let me ask a serious question....


What are the odds that the goverment wrote the bible?

[JOEX]

Originally posted by honduh440
let me ask a serious question....


What are the odds that the goverment wrote the bible?
Who's government?

[MOFO]

Originally posted by Samson
And you'll remember I consider Muslims a cult.


Some people could consider YOUR religion a cult!

[Samson]

Originally posted by MOFO
Some people could consider YOUR religion a cult!

I stated that because he acted like I should defend somebody elses religion. While you may consider my religion to be a cult, it is not as easy to rule out as some of the other popular religions. For example, it is easy to rule out religions that create doctrine in addition to the bible and use excuses for contradictions. They basically claim one doctrine is more accurate than the other. In the case of Muslims, the Koran even states that the bible is the infallible word of God, yet the Koran is contradictory to the bible in many ways and they dismiss what the bible teaches.

[duke416ex]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
You've GOT TO BE KIDDING ME. Are you serious? You want to know how a single celled organism gets somewhere, but your explanation for god is "past present future". What the hell is that? It still doesn't answer anything, if anything it just makes evolution look better. And "its non mambo jumbo its the Bible" How do you know some random guy just wrote the bible as a bunch of stories and then some people took it way to far.
Quoted from your self, "believe what you want to believe" Well I don't believe in the bible, yet you tell me to read it, that I NEED to read it? Are you serious?:rolleyes:


I win.

You did not answer his question, you just ran around it and tried to bring up a different subject because you had no answer. You did not win.

You want an answer on where God came from, if someone on this forum has the true answer to that do you tink they would be spending time on here. Something you seem to forget is that God is a greater being, he is not like us. God in his entirety is just beyond our grasp, but yet you feel like you should be able to have all the answers before you believe He exsists. You probably don't know much about rocket science, but I am sure you believe it works. You probably don't know what makes your computer operate and process information, but you still use it. Do you understand what I am saying? You don't have answers for many questions, but you don't disbelieve they work.

[duke416ex]

I have a question about this thread, I have read that several people on here have or do go to church regularly. I just want to know the history of the people who are discussing it, like do you get your knowledge just from church, do you have any secondary education concerning religion, or did you just develope your thoughts on your own. I just always wonder this when I get into this dicussion.

I have always went to a missionary baptist church all my life. I am a christian, I try to live a good life, no one is perfect though. I thought I knew a lot about christianity, but I learned a lot more in college at my religion classes, didn't really change my views, but just made me realize things.

Wilkin, you are arguing the opposite side I thought you would on this subject, what is your history with religion?

[Samson]

I was forced to go to church through junior high and usually slept through it. Called myself Christian but had no real concept of what that meant. I guess I really started questioning things in college. You hear it all the time. How do you know your religion is right? Does God really exist?

I believed in evolution until I was around 20 or so when a friend provided me with some reading material on alternative theories. A lot of it makes sense based on what we can observe. And a lot of the evolution theories have holes to say the least.

The flood evidence is quite compelling imo. I could even observe that in my home town. Lived 60 miles from the nearest river, 500 miles from an ocean, yet dug up some small seashells while planting a tree in the back yard.

[honda350r]

Originally posted by Samson


The flood evidence is quite compelling imo. I could even observe that in my home town. Lived 60 miles from the nearest river, 500 miles from an ocean, yet dug up some small seashells while planting a tree in the back yard.


So that to your proves that Noah had a ark with all the animals inside?

[Samson]

Originally posted by honda350r
So that to your proves that Noah had a ark with all the animals inside?

No, it's a small piece that supports a flood as described by the bible. But it's not just that, there a bunch of things that support the flood.

You'd just have to accept the ark on faith. But if the historical information in the bible is accurate, then it would add credibility now wouldn't it?

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by duke416ex
Wilkin, you are arguing the opposite side I thought you would on this subject, what is your history with religion?

It's no great secret that I am a very logical person. I don't readily accept things without evidence.

I'm also a very mathematical person. I'm certainly not Einstien-level, but I've done my fair share of complex calculations and analysis.

The more I dive into the true complexities of the world around us, the more I realize exactly how much I don't know.

Of the people just in this thread that demand "proof", how many of them have actually gone through the incredibly complex calculations required to derive Einstien's famous formula of "e=mc^2"? How many of them have studied nuclear physics? How many have actually calculated how time slows down when you approach the speed of light? Yet they accept these things.

These people can't even fully comprehend the physical world around them. They can't even comprehend the nature of themselves, how in the world do they expect to comprehend the nature of something even more complex?


The more I learn about the complexities of physics and the world around us, the more I realize that some things are just beyond our comprehension. You would be surprised just how much "faith" there is in science (especially the medical field). Not so much about faith in a higher power, but you have faith in somebody else's theories and calculations, that the equations you're using truly are valid, even though you did not derive them yourself.

[wilkin250r]

I didn't really answer the question, so let me answer it directly.


I obviously don't have direct proof that God exists. But I've seen and studied a whole lot of things that science just can't explain. There are a whole lot of things on this earth that are just too coincidental, that are so complex that I can't possibly accept them as an accident, as a chance occurance.

I went to Church when I was younger, didn't like it. Honestly, I didn't start to form my beliefs until I got into high school and college, when I really started studying the world around me.

So many people claim that God does not exist because they don't see proof. The lack of evidence for his existence was proof enough that he doesn't exist.

I say the oppostie. Proof for me came in the form of all the questions that science couldn't answer. And once I was open to the idea of a higher power, I began to see more evidence around me.

[duke416ex]

All of what you just said makes very good sense to me. I have to say there have been a lot of times I haven't fully agreed with you on things, but you will never agree with someone all the time. I do have a sort of new respect for you knowing the way you feel about this subject.

I have seen many "educated" people whom you can explain nothing to about faith just because they won't even try to comprehend it, not saying they can't, just won't try. I have also seen some people with very strong faith who just seem to have everything wrong. Both types of people seem to really get to me. I have two very close friends who attend seminary, each one goes to extremely different type of school though. It is funny at times just to hear what they are being taught. One of them goes to a really liberal school and the other one goes to a conservative school. Some of the stuff is almost unbelievable.

[stiffy]

Originally posted by user101
beleive what you want...i have no problem with what you beleive. I'm not the one who will be burning for eternity when I die.


I am curious to see what happens when I die I think I will probably end up to be just worm food.

[stiffy]

Originally posted by honda350r
Why is going to a topless bar bad???

Who made up these rules on what is good and bad ??


Yeah, good question. I think if it feels good do it. I like going to the topless, nude bars with my husband it's fun being female they give you much more attention, sad to think I may burn in hell for looking at boobies.

[Atkins]

Early single cell organisms did for by random chance, but given their environment, and the sheer amount of time(billions of years is a long time for an event like this to occur), I believe their development was innevitable.

This is provable because scientists have placed many basic materials together in a contained environment before, and some of the building blocks of life began to develop like proteins and such. Given more time, maybe even a few hundred years, im sure single celled organisms would have developed.

[Samson]

I think you'd have a better chance of hitting the lotto every day for the next ten years.

[duke416ex]

Originally posted by Atkins
Early single cell organisms did for by random chance, but given their environment, and the sheer amount of time(billions of years is a long time for an event like this to occur), I believe their development was innevitable.

This is provable because scientists have placed many basic materials together in a contained environment before, and some of the building blocks of life began to develop like proteins and such. Given more time, maybe even a few hundred years, im sure single celled organisms would have developed.

So some of those processes and materials you speak about occurred how? I mean I am just wondering, I know that often times they will say that this or that is just naturally occurring in nature, do you feel like they are just naturally occurring and that htere is no explanation? Do you not feel that these unexplainable things could have been thought of by something else unexplainable, like a greater being, like God?

This is what I spoke of earlier. You don't know about all the processes or what all was formed in this controlled enviroment in great detail, but yet cause they reported that it happened you just believe it without seeing proof. The bible is much like a history book and can even be read as a history book in some ways, and much like history, there isn't always proof just laying around that we can just lay our hands on. But we believe what the history books say, I just don't understand why people won't accept the the bible even as a history or reference book, even if they have no faith.

[spincr4hire]

anybody seen the South Park episode were Cartman starts a Christian band? hilarous:p

[BLACKeR]

there is no way to prove creation, or a god scientifically. there is also no way to prove evolution. there has been no confirmed proof of evolution. in fact there is now a scientist that is on the national level, that has a standing offer of $250,000 for anyone that can come up with physical exidence of evolution. so all you guys who think it is physically fact. might want to try claiming that. i stated it in my other post. but think i did a bad job explaining it. i think there are 2 "gods" in this world. the is God, and there is man: humanism. i dont think its a coincidence that evolution was "discovered" at the same time humanism really started to become popular. people like to knock the bible as being silly, and just stories. however there isnt anythgin in the bible that can be disproved. all the historical refrences are accurate. there is plenty in science that has been disproved and changed over the years. the bible has been the same for 6000 years. and yet to be proven false. many times science has said it was wrong and then 20 years later that scientific logical thing wa sfound to be completely different. peopel have a problem seeing things only from their time line. people forget all the dumb things science has said. the world used to be flat. and the sun used to revolve around the earth. the bible said the earth is round and that the earth revolves around the sun. thousands of years before science discovered it. although we all think were infalible now. 200 years from now. just as many things will be proven wrong. and the bible will still be right. i agree with wilkens 100%. the fact of the matter is we as people know very little. we can pretend were smart. but in reality we know very very little

[honda350r]

Originally posted by spincr4hire
anybody seen the South Park episode were Cartman starts a Christian band? hilarous:p

South Park is spot on when it comes to religion!!!!!!

[trx400exxracer]

Originally posted by spincr4hire
anybody seen the South Park episode were Cartman starts a Christian band? hilarous:p

yeah and when he starts up the church services and says"I just got a message from God for you to put $1 dollar in the hat"

[Atkins]

Originally posted by honda350r
South Park is spot on when it comes to religion!!!!!!
"Well, then who was right?"

"It was the Mormons, the Mormons were correct."

[XCAdam89]

Originally posted by BLACKeR
there is no way to prove creation, or a god scientifically. there is also no way to prove evolution. there has been no confirmed proof of evolution. in fact there is now a scientist that is on the national level, that has a standing offer of $250,000 for anyone that can come up with physical exidence of evolution. so all you guys who think it is physically fact. might want to try claiming that. i stated it in my other post. but think i did a bad job explaining it. i think there are 2 "gods" in this world. the is God, and there is man: humanism. i dont think its a coincidence that evolution was "discovered" at the same time humanism really started to become popular. people like to knock the bible as being silly, and just stories. however there isnt anythgin in the bible that can be disproved. all the historical refrences are accurate. there is plenty in science that has been disproved and changed over the years. the bible has been the same for 6000 years. and yet to be proven false. many times science has said it was wrong and then 20 years later that scientific logical thing wa sfound to be completely different. peopel have a problem seeing things only from their time line. people forget all the dumb things science has said. the world used to be flat. and the sun used to revolve around the earth. the bible said the earth is round and that the earth revolves around the sun. thousands of years before science discovered it. although we all think were infalible now. 200 years from now. just as many things will be proven wrong. and the bible will still be right. i agree with wilkens 100%. the fact of the matter is we as people know very little. we can pretend were smart. but in reality we know very very little

Just because you can't see wind, does that mean it doesn't exist? Sure you can feel it, but can you scientifically prove that it is there. The Bible is the all-time best selling book, and has been unchanged for centuries. That must tell you a little about it right there..

Now, for how old the earth is, millions of years is crazy IMO, look at the grand canyon and other rock formations. Scientists can tell you how long those rocks have been around from different dating practices, It just so happens they can't track back millions of years...I wonder why? If you put all the pieces together the flood, grand canyons, creation, it all fits perfectly and if you look at Revelation you can see that the things mentioned are coming true. It says that the Middle East will quarrel, and look at today.

All the Information you need is out there, but you are going to have to believe in it. Religion IMO is not about science, but what you believe in your heart. I know I'm going to heaven, and I hope that the rest of you will join me there!

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by XCAdam89
It says that the Middle East will quarrel, and look at today.



Today??? They have been fighting for centuries:ermm:

[honda350r]

Originally posted by Atkins
"Well, then who was right?"

"It was the Mormons, the Mormons were correct."


I LMFAO when they said that ..

I also like the DUM DUM DUM DUM !!

[miller821]

I am a christian and i don't know much about other religions, but if you believe in God and Jesus dying for our sins than you believe in what i believe in.

I don't know everything about the bible, but i do know that God created the world and created adam and eve, along with animals.
And that Jesus died for our sins and transgressions.

And i do know that he who is worthy and honest to God and who has been saved will live in heaven for all eternity, and that he who does viel and wrong against God will burn in hell for all eternity. Which is why i was saved, i will sacrifice the years of my life on earth for eternity in heaven. After all think how long eternity is, millions upon millions of years, even after the world is gone (dunno if God will destroy it or not someday) there will still be a heaven.

And so if you do not believe in Christ or are unsure i would recommend reading the bible, watching the passion of the christ, or watching left behind, and trying to understand those.

And if you believe that you have sinned to much and that God will not accept you then think of when the Lord was hanging on the cross with the other two guys ( who were sinners). And one of the criminals said " Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God", he said,
" since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, " Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." And Jesus answered him, " I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

So if you believe in darwanism thats good for you, but think about it this way. Who created the ape for us to evolve into? Who created the world? And why did they create the world?

Shoot me a pm if you have any questions or comments.

[spincr4hire]

Originally posted by honda350r
I LMFAO when they said that ..

I also like the DUM DUM DUM DUM !!

classic!

[Samson]

Originally posted by AtvMxRider
Today??? They have been fighting for centuries:ermm:

Think that was the point.

[stiffy]

No one has answered why topless bars are bad yet.:devil:

[T.Hopp]

I can't agree with you more. You are the first person that I heard with my same exact thoughts. I feel religion is important and also necessary for many but not for everyone. I find the differences between them and the views of their follows interesting. Most of it makes me smile and/or laugh but I still respect what they believe in for most cases.

[user101]

Originally posted by stiffy
No one has answered why topless bars are bad yet.:devil:

why dont you ask your parents or granparents.

[slamdak8782]

My thoughts on this have been cultivated from many years of wondering if God is real or not. I can honestly say that this world screams of Gods creation. I have seen the proof in my own life of failed relationships that I forced and then meeting my future wife. There are too many coincidences for me to randomly find somebuddy so suited to me. Also in my life I have seen Gods touch and sometimes you have to just be careful and wait for his influence to touch your life. He is real and if you listen in your life you will hear him. The day of his return is coming. I have found that choosing to not believe only makes me believe more because I have seen and dealt with his wrath and his blessings. If you trust in the lord he will bless your life. At least get in the word or search for yourself. Every man needs more than just himself. I would say search out religion and see what is the best. For me it is Christianity. I hold no denomination. I beleive in Christ and I think if people would take the time to discover faith they might find it to be a treasure. It is worth a look to see what there is after all what is there after you die. Don't do it out of fear I would say more like curousity. But find religion look at Christ his message and just give it a chance.

[slamdak8782]

Does anyone know that Charles Darwin Died not beleiving in what he created. That should tell you something

[miller821]

Originally posted by slamdak8782
My thoughts on this have been cultivated from many years of wondering if God is real or not. I can honestly say that this world screams of Gods creation. I have seen the proof in my own life of failed relationships that I forced and then meeting my future wife. There are too many coincidences for me to randomly find somebuddy so suited to me. Also in my life I have seen Gods touch and sometimes you have to just be careful and wait for his influence to touch your life. He is real and if you listen in your life you will hear him. The day of his return is coming. I have found that choosing to not believe only makes me believe more because I have seen and dealt with his wrath and his blessings. If you trust in the lord he will bless your life. At least get in the word or search for yourself. Every man needs more than just himself. I would say search out religion and see what is the best. For me it is Christianity. I hold no denomination. I beleive in Christ and I think if people would take the time to discover faith they might find it to be a treasure. It is worth a look to see what there is after all what is there after you die. Don't do it out of fear I would say more like curousity. But find religion look at Christ his message and just give it a chance.

Amen brother well said.

[miller821]

Originally posted by stiffy
No one has answered why topless bars are bad yet.:devil:

It is one of the many ways of the devil. In the bible it says do not lust.

[stiffy]

Originally posted by ride hard man
It is one of the many ways of the devil. In the bible it says do not lust.

LMFAO that's great :D

[SGA]

Originally posted by ride hard man
It is one of the many ways of the devil. In the bible it says do not lust.

Its all over for me then:o

[Atkins]

Originally posted by T.Hopp
I can't agree with you more. You are the first person that I heard with my same exact thoughts. I feel religion is important and also necessary for many but not for everyone. I find the differences between them and the views of their follows interesting. Most of it makes me smile and/or laugh but I still respect what they believe in for most cases.
Thanks alot, it means alot to me to hear that that is also the way you have and do feel, and that im not alone in my thoughts and beliefs.

btw, I have never seen God's "touch", nor do I believe it exists. If you dont understand why something happened, then try to figure it out logically before you jump to the conclusion that "God did it".

[miller821]

Originally posted by stiffy
LMFAO that's great :D

Laugh all you want, but its the truth. And if you go to hell i would like to see you laughing then.

[Atkins]

Originally posted by ride hard man
Laugh all you want, but its the truth. And if you go to hell i would like to see you laughing then.
Hell isnt real.

Neither is Heaven

Neither is Middle Earth

[Indy]

What about karma,

[Atkins]

Originally posted by Indy
What about karma,
explain your thoughts in depth, my friend.

[miller821]

Originally posted by Atkins
Hell isnt real.

Neither is Heaven

Neither is Middle Earth

Obviously im a christian who believes in heaven and hell whether it exists or not. Which i believe it does exist, as did many things that happened in the bible.

[Indy]

Originally posted by Atkins
explain your thoughts in depth, my friend.


I cant type enough to explain. First off I dont believe in Luck.

Life is a trip, your view of the trip depends on where you look and the road you take.

:)

[stiffy]

Originally posted by ride hard man
Laugh all you want, but its the truth. And if you go to hell i would like to see you laughing then.
Wow I am so screwed. I apologize if I offend you I really do but that is the funniest thing I have heard all year, go to hell because of lusting OMG maybe they will have topless bars in hell:rolleyes:

[LTandRaptorider]

Originally posted by stiffy
Wow I am so screwed. I apologize if I offend you I really do but that is the funniest thing I have heard all year, go to hell because of lusting OMG maybe they will have topless bars in hell:rolleyes:

And I'm sitting here thinking of you looking at nice boobies in a top-less bar! :D C-ya in hell, honey! More fun there anyways!! ;) :devil:

Ok, back to... what was the topic? :confused: ummm... Jesus! It was religion! :p

btw Stiffy... a pic would help! I hardly ever get to ask that anymore... :( :blah:

[miller821]

Originally posted by stiffy
Wow I am so screwed. I apologize if I offend you I really do but that is the funniest thing I have heard all year, go to hell because of lusting OMG maybe they will have topless bars in hell:rolleyes:

Ok im not saying you will go to hell for looking at boobs or anything, but it is a sin and sin after sin without forgiveness is leading you straight to hell.

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by ride hard man
Ok im not saying you will go to hell for looking at boobs or anything, but it is a sin and sin after sin without forgiveness is leading you straight to hell.


Well I'll see you guys in hell because I am not going to stop looking at boobs:devil:

[slamdak8782]

Realistically looking at boobs wont put you in hell however it has to be balanced. Tell your wife or girlfriend you looked at some other girls boobs and see where that gets you. The main issue here is your heart and where it is. There is a lot of good in the right woman and if you find her then why would you want anyone else. Alot of guys brag and bost but I bet they would rather meet a good lookin nice girl than a 100 whores. I know i would. Anyways the point is if all you are is a sexual pervert then your heart will be led toward the paths of hell. More so than that is the fact that it will scar you and eventually you wont be able to have a pure love due to the fact that all you are wanting from a girl is sex. Trust me there are better things about a woman than that and that is the issue that the bible speaks of. Everything in life should have a balance otherwise a hobby has now become an addiction. The problem with an addiction is the fact that it becomes your master and you have become a slave. Do not become a slave to sin or it will own you and not the other way around. If you dont beleive in God at least trust me on this. At least enjoy your life here even if you do choose the fires of hell. Why waste both of your lives?

[Samson]

Originally posted by Atkins
I am agnostic, I believe that theres something, but I just havent found it yet


Originally posted by Atkins
I have never seen God's "touch", nor do I believe it exists.

So which is it? Agnostic or Athiest? I'm getting the feeling you're just jumping around to which ever side you want to stir the pot. And I think think getting people to fight over their beliefs simply for your entertainment shows very LOW class, Atkins. :grr:

Perhaps you want to develop your own religion and make your god bend to your whims and ideals? Some god that would be. Maybe you should settle for a dog instead, Atkins. :rolleyes:

[LTandRaptorider]

Originally posted by Samson
So which is it? Agnostic or Athiest? I'm getting the feeling you're just jumping around to which ever side you want to stir the pot. And I think think getting people to fight over their beliefs simply for your entertainment shows very LOW class, Atkins. :grr:

Perhaps you want to develop your own religion and make your god bend to your whims and ideals? Some god that would be. Maybe you should settle for a dog instead, Atkins. :rolleyes:

Well, I'm not religious... But ya got him on that one, samson! ;)

But would you really want to do that to a dog? :confused: :p

[Samson]

Originally posted by LTandRaptorider
But would you really want to do that to a dog? :confused: :p

I just mean if you want something to exist to do your bidding. You know, something tangible that will try to do everything you want it to, a dog is the way to go.

Trust me, I already tried the wife thing and it hasn't been all roses. :blah: ;)

[miller821]

Originally posted by slamdak8782
Realistically looking at boobs wont put you in hell however it has to be balanced. Tell your wife or girlfriend you looked at some other girls boobs and see where that gets you. The main issue here is your heart and where it is. There is a lot of good in the right woman and if you find her then why would you want anyone else. Alot of guys brag and bost but I bet they would rather meet a good lookin nice girl than a 100 whores. I know i would. Anyways the point is if all you are is a sexual pervert then your heart will be led toward the paths of hell. More so than that is the fact that it will scar you and eventually you wont be able to have a pure love due to the fact that all you are wanting from a girl is sex. Trust me there are better things about a woman than that and that is the issue that the bible speaks of. Everything in life should have a balance otherwise a hobby has now become an addiction. The problem with an addiction is the fact that it becomes your master and you have become a slave. Do not become a slave to sin or it will own you and not the other way around. If you dont beleive in God at least trust me on this. At least enjoy your life here even if you do choose the fires of hell. Why waste both of your lives?

Yep well said.

[Atkins]

Originally posted by Samson
So which is it? Agnostic or Athiest? I'm getting the feeling you're just jumping around to which ever side you want to stir the pot. And I think think getting people to fight over their beliefs simply for your entertainment shows very LOW class, Atkins. :grr:

Perhaps you want to develop your own religion and make your god bend to your whims and ideals? Some god that would be. Maybe you should settle for a dog instead, Atkins. :rolleyes:

Just stirring up the pot? Ive opened myself up in this thread and Ive provided my thought pattern towards everything I believe, and frankly, Im getting sick and tired of religious people(not because they are religious or because I disagree) spewing out verses of the bible and then telling people they are going to hell. Thats not what this thread is for.

Just because its a religious thread doesnt mean we are analyzing the bible and why people in here are going to hell. Why dont you describe why you are religious? Or what led you to being religious? Or how when you feel God you know its God and not just your belief in him telling you its him? Please, I'm very curious about all of this and I dont want this thread to go to sh*t.

Maybe you'll turn me into a believer, but it damn well wont be because you tell me that I'll go to hell if I dont.

EDIT: and when I was talking about not having felt God's touch, that doesnt mean that I dont believe that there could be a God, none of us know that. I just havent felt whatever God may or may not be out there touch me in any way I dont feel, so I still consider myself Agnostic.

[MOFO]

Originally posted by Atkins
Just stirring up the pot? Ive opened myself up in this thread and Ive provided my thought pattern towards everything I believe, and frankly, Im getting sick and tired of religious people(not because they are religious or because I disagree) spewing out verses of the bible and then telling people they are going to hell. Thats not what this thread is for.



You created the thread, be ready for all different sides. Did you honestly think a religion thread would go smoothly. It never does, on ANY forum - EVER.

[Samson]

Atkins, all I can say is if you are open to the idea of a God then you'd better be open to the possibility there may be a heaven and hell. The whole concept is that we are more than just our bodies. For example, the bible teaches we are made in God's image. Mind, body and spirit. I think some of us lose our minds while we're still alive and I'm pretty sure stiffy nailed it on what happens to our body after death.

But if there is in fact an afterlife, then where does our spirit go?

[slamdak8782]

i dont want to scare you into being a christian I know that didnt work for me. Have you ever asked for guidance or Gods touch in your life and then waited patiently. Id say try being faithful for 6 months or so and see what happens. I gaurantee if you listen and wait upon the lord you will feel his touch and some peace where you only felt anxiety before. This is what I am talking about. Now being a christian is contrary to what we as humans believe it is never easy. It involves walking away when you dont want to and staying when you dont want to. Overall allowing yourself to respect others feelings and not yell when you want to. Its is some times very hard. Try looking at Romans in a bible with some good notes about what is being said. Romans is great for understanding a walk of faith. Also Ephesians. Basically Christ made the ultimate sacrifice for mankind already. He will reach out to you but if your heart is hardened you will never see it.
Christ was a sacrifice because God knew that he could not look upon our sin. He sent his son to die for the sins of the world. So that if a man or woman would only beleive upon his son as the messiah and cover himself or herself in the blood of jesus that God could look upon that person when they die and see only his son a perfect offering and would allow them into the kingdom of heaven. My advice to you atkins and stiffy is to ask yourself if you have ever tried to ask for guidance from God or the holy spirit in your life? God already sent his son he wishes for you to fellowship with him. He desires to have a connection with his creation. He wants to give us the world and more as a free gift if we only beleive and worship him as the one true God. :D

[miller821]

Originally posted by Atkins
Just stirring up the pot? Ive opened myself up in this thread and Ive provided my thought pattern towards everything I believe, and frankly, Im getting sick and tired of religious people(not because they are religious or because I disagree) spewing out verses of the bible and then telling people they are going to hell. Thats not what this thread is for.

Just because its a religious thread doesnt mean we are analyzing the bible and why people in here are going to hell. Why dont you describe why you are religious? Or what led you to being religious? Or how when you feel God you know its God and not just your belief in him telling you its him? Please, I'm very curious about all of this and I dont want this thread to go to sh*t.

Maybe you'll turn me into a believer, but it damn well wont be because you tell me that I'll go to hell if I dont.

EDIT: and when I was talking about not having felt God's touch, that doesnt mean that I dont believe that there could be a God, none of us know that. I just havent felt whatever God may or may not be out there touch me in any way I dont feel, so I still consider myself Agnostic.

Ok i see wat your saying so one of the things that has happened to me to bring me closer to Christ is this. Two years ago my grandpa was diagnosed with lung cancer for smoking. So he wasnt supposed to make it much longer at all, but he made it longer than we thought, even to see thanksgiving with his family. So he went back to the doctor and the doctor said he had barely anytime left. So i prayed that he would make it through one last Christmas with his family. But unfortunately his life was taken around the 23 and not after Christmas. But still with him dying before Christmas his birthday was like dec, 13 so he made it through his birthday and much longer than he was supposed to. So if you think its a miracle thats cul, but i think it was meant to happen, and that the Lord let him spend more time with his family before leaving us.

[SGA]

Originally posted by Atkins
Im getting sick and tired of religious people(not because they are religious or because I disagree) spewing out verses of the bible and then telling people they are going to hell. Thats not what this thread is for.

What the hel* do you want? Its a thread about religion!
I would say heaven, hell and bible verses would belong here.

Atkins, If you state your religious beliefs, dont expect others to sit back and be quiet about it. You deserve everything you get because it was you that opened this can of worms.

Ive also watched you twist peoples arms in this thread to get them to debate with you.

Theres some fine theology sites on the net that love to debate this stuff, why not go over to one of them and have a field day.

[Atkins]

If you honestly dont want this thread around any longer, then lock it up SGA. I just figured it is the open forum so why not talk about it. But I think the last page or so of posts are much better and to the point.

[MOFO]

Originally posted by Atkins
If you honestly dont want this thread around any longer, then lock it up SGA. I just figured it is the open forum so why not talk about it. But I think the last page or so of posts are much better and to the point.


Neither one of us seem to care if the thread is around here or not. Seems like a pretty good debate without much name calling and other BS.

You seem to be the one that can not handle the response you got by starting this thread. As SGA pointed out, you called people out, they responded. Just because you do not like it does not make it wrong.

I believe SGA just pointed out the obvious, because you clearly do not see it. Its a religion thread! Your going to get people saying their religion is the best and using verses from the bible!!!

If YOU can't deal with people claiming their religion is the best and making references to the bible, DONT START A THREAD LIKE THIS! :rolleyes:

[duke416ex]

Atkins, like the others stated, when you start a religious debate it often gets into a very heated discussion. Let's go back a few steps though and see what happens. It seems as though you are looking for some answers you haven't found yet. Let me ask you a few questions to see how you think, no flaming from anyone, let's just hear what you have to say.

I am not trying to push my beliefs on you, I am not that type of person. I just feel like there is a God and people should believe, but I am not gonna just say that's how you should believe the end, I will debate with you.

First question, you don't believe in heaven or hell, do you believe there is any after life, or when you die that is it? Do you believe in ghosts, if so you must believe we have spirits, if so what do you think happens to those spirits after death?

Second, have you ever read any of the bible. Even if not for belief just for history or to see what was occuring at the time. Often times, the bible just has a way of answering questions when you pick it up.

I may be wrong, but I just feel like something is on your mind or you would not have started this thread, so why don't you ask whatever question is really bothering you, or just tell me you just wanted to debate, no problem many people like to debate.

[BLACKeR]

Laugh all you want, but its the truth. And if you go to hell i would like to see you laughing then.

this is the problem with "religion" now im really going to hack peopel off because im a christian and im about to bash religion. i cant stand "religion" religious organizations have become elite clubs where all who disagree with them are to be looked down on, and thought of as poor sinners. someone who drinks is an evil drunkard, smokers are dirty people, people who like sex are going to hell. if you are a christian and actually believe the bible you would know that there is no difference between you and the guy stumbling out of the strip club. yet so often you look at him and think smugly to yourself "sinner, im glad im going to heaven." i do believe there is a heaven and a hell, a right and a wrong. and i think everyone of us knows and feels what is right. we can argue that society imposes that on us and thats why we feel it. but when you lie there in the still of the night you know thats not true. every human being in history has sinned and all sin is equal. to keep this post a little under control ill stop it at that. i dont personally care if you want to go to a strip club. i dont think its the best thing you could do, and i think it opens you up for trouble. if your married it could spoil your marrage, and we all know it can lead to a serious loss of $20's:eek:

[KoyukKFX]

1) Who am I?
2) Where did I come from?
3) Why am I here?
4) Where am I going when I die?

These are the great philosophical questions man has always sought to answer throughout his own history.

How you answer these questions depends upon how you view the world.

Boiled down, there ends up being two world views:

Before we get there, lets consider the things that lead us to one of two beliefs.

Creation: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

In those 10 words, which happen to be the first 10 words of the bible, there is alot more than you first realize. "In the beginning..." refers to time. Time has three dimensions; past, present, future. "...heavens..." refers to space. Space has three dimensions; length, width, heighth. "...earth..." refers to matter. Matter has three dimensions; solid, liquid, gas.

Already, in the first sentence of the bible, there is reference to science. Funny thing is, God created the laws of science before all else.

Evolution: "About 20 billion years ago, nothing started spinning and ended up spinning so fast that it exploded."

First, there are hundreds of individual known problems with the age of the universe being millions let alone billions of years old. All age problems are scientific evidences which are true, that even the evolutionist would agree to. Second, how could "nothing" explode? If nothing were actually something, why would it start spinning in the first place?

Keep in mind, if you have any questions about anything I state, feel free to ask. I have a unwavering answer to every word in each sentence I will say. There are many statements made that would take too much space if expanded to their full explanations. So pick and choose what you want explanation on.

There has been so many different things in this debate thread brought up. I'll bring up a couple of them. One is "you can't prove God and you can't prove evolution." True. But, you can DISPROVE evolution, and what do you have left? No one can disprove God.

Evolution is the complete opposite of Creation on every issue. But first, what is meant by evolution?
There are 6 meanings to the word.
1) Cosmic evolution: origin of time, space and matter (BigBang)
2) Chemical evolution: origin of higher elements from hydrogen
3) Stellar and planetary evolution: origin of stars and planets
4) Organic evolution: origin of life from non-living, inanimate matter
5) Macro-evolution: change of one kind of life form into another
6) Micro-evolution: variations within a kind (this has been observed, but has serious limitations)

Each of the above listed types of evolution necessary to support a "No God" theory are impossible to scientifically support. It requires as much faith to believe that long ago and far away nothing exploded, and eventually gave rise to your breath.

Please ask about anything. The scientists in the 1950's who attempted to create life in the laboratory from non-living matter was a miserable failure. There is a great deception about that. The story of the moths near the coal-burning factory in England is a lie. There is an explanation for that too.

Just a few comments about the different types of evolution before moving on. Cosmic evolution is so dumb, it requires no further comment. And yet, that would have to happen before anything else on the list "presumably occurred". Chemical evolution the evolutionists say happened by fusion. Well, from hydrogen, fusion cannot go past iron. How'd the rest of the higher elements come about? There's no evolutionary explanation how they might've come about. Stellar and planetary evolution is very easy to discount in many many layman's explanations. Conservation of angular momentum. That physical law says that something that breaks off a spinning object will itself spin the same direction as the "mother" object. 8 of our solar systems 91 moons spin the wrong way. Entire galaxies spin the wrong way! No way did the Big Bang happen in this physical universe! Organic evolution. The guys who sought to make life in the laboratory. They failed. They did come up with a couple amino acids, just a fraction of which is required to make the simplest protein necessary for life. But, they excluded oxygen from their experiment because before any amino acids could bond, they would've been destroyed by the oxidation the oxygen gas would do, like it causes rust on iron, or rot of a fruit. They made mostly tar and other chemical compounds toxic to life. They didn't do the experiment right. A single celled paramesium is more complex than the space shuttle... so then the chicken and the egg problem arises... out of millions of ordered chemicals, and thousands of necessary processes, and hundreds of systems in that single celled organism, which came first? Macro-evolution is the Darwinian genre of evolution. One kind of organism changing into another over time. IF the earth is billions of years old like evolutionists say, then as the "species" made their slow change into other species, we should at least find some intermediate fossils among the TRILLIONS of fossils on earth. Not one is found. Some strange animals, extinct animals, but all distinctly their own kind... no half and halfs. Consider the eye. It's incredibly complex, more than man will ever be able to replicate. For millions of years before an eye on an organism was functional, the "evolution process" (getting rid of what isn't needed) would not have let the eye develop. Micro-evolution is deceiving. There already exists in any person or kind of animal much more genetic information than is displayed. For example, recessive and dominant genes for certain color eyes. I am brown eyed, but if I happen to have a child with blue eyes, that isn't evolution. The information that already existed, and was not changed, was simply brought forth.

With all that said, and it's just like .00000000001% of the discrediting evidences against evolution, it should be quite clear that evolution doesn't exist and cannot explain who we are, where we came from, why we're here and where we will go. So if no evidence supports the theory of evolution, it ought to be put in the garbage. What alternate theory is there? Creation.

Do you know that evolution is tax supported? It couldn't survive without tax money. In my own home state, under the Alaska HighSchool Academic standards, it requires evolution to be taught as science. The same is true for nearly 100% of the US. And if the brief statements above don't convince you that evolution is as much a "faith" or "belief" or flat out fairy tale of speculative science, sorry, you can't be helped! It sure looks like evolution is a religion, and gov't supported to boot!

Alright, God says He made the universe and all that is in it. And he made it in six literal days, about 6,000 years ago. There is equally as much scientific support for creation as there is "unsupport" for evolution. If that's true, then he owns everything, including us! If he owns us and where we live, then he can put his own rules upon his creation. If he doesn't want you going to topless bars, who are you to say different since you are not responsible for even yourself being here? But hey, you know what? All mankind from the beginning is incapable of living up to God's standards. That's why he supernaturally sent his Son Jesus to conquer spiritual death for us, that we may be justified to God for passage into heaven.

So someone says, okay, looks like the theory of evolution is dumb and or untrue... but you still haven't proven God. What do we know about him then?

He is not bound by any of the physical laws or limitations of the physical universe we know (and have yet to know!). That is why he (to me, and others) is worth believing in! We humans are bound by time. God isn't. Time has physical properties. It can be sped up and slowed down, as demonstrated in the laboratory. However, we cannot go back, no go forward. Eternity doesn't mean forever, eternity means a complete absence of time. Wow.

What would you say is the best thing about being a human being is? Ultimately, you can chop it down to perhaps this: Man is sovereign. He, be choice can choose whatever he is capable of coming up with in his own mind. Freedom of choice. If you throw out God, yes, you can do that. But I think it'd be foolish considering all the evidence out there, real scientific evidence, that points towards a creator.

Well anyway, nothing can be said in a reasonable length of text or a given period of time on this subject. It seems never ending. But maybe some things said will bring further debate or questions, which I'd be glad to respond to.

Humanist View (Evolutionism)----------Creationist View (God Made)
1) random collection of chemicals------God's purposeful creation
2) an explosion of nothing (big bang)-----Spoken into existence
3) no purpose---------to glorify God
4) become recycled organically--------to eternal life in heaven

[moto04racing]

i ride 4 jesus

lol im christian

[AtvMxRider]

:rolleyes:

[GP400]

Sad

[Lurch]

Originally posted by KoyukKFX
1) Who am I?
2) Where did I come from?
3) Why am I here?
4) Where am I going when I die?

These are the great philosophical questions man has always sought to answer throughout his own history.

How you answer these questions depends upon how you view the world.

Boiled down, there ends up being two world views:

Before we get there, lets consider the things that lead us to one of two beliefs.

Creation: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

In those 10 words, which happen to be the first 10 words of the bible, there is alot more than you first realize. "In the beginning..." refers to time. Time has three dimensions; past, present, future. "...heavens..." refers to space. Space has three dimensions; length, width, heighth. "...earth..." refers to matter. Matter has three dimensions; solid, liquid, gas.

Already, in the first sentence of the bible, there is reference to science. Funny thing is, God created the laws of science before all else.

Evolution: "About 20 billion years ago, nothing started spinning and ended up spinning so fast that it exploded."

First, there are hundreds of individual known problems with the age of the universe being millions let alone billions of years old. All age problems are scientific evidences which are true, that even the evolutionist would agree to. Second, how could "nothing" explode? If nothing were actually something, why would it start spinning in the first place?

Keep in mind, if you have any questions about anything I state, feel free to ask. I have a unwavering answer to every word in each sentence I will say. There are many statements made that would take too much space if expanded to their full explanations. So pick and choose what you want explanation on.

There has been so many different things in this debate thread brought up. I'll bring up a couple of them. One is "you can't prove God and you can't prove evolution." True. But, you can DISPROVE evolution, and what do you have left? No one can disprove God.

Evolution is the complete opposite of Creation on every issue. But first, what is meant by evolution?
There are 6 meanings to the word.
1) Cosmic evolution: origin of time, space and matter (BigBang)
2) Chemical evolution: origin of higher elements from hydrogen
3) Stellar and planetary evolution: origin of stars and planets
4) Organic evolution: origin of life from non-living, inanimate matter
5) Macro-evolution: change of one kind of life form into another
6) Micro-evolution: variations within a kind (this has been observed, but has serious limitations)

Each of the above listed types of evolution necessary to support a "No God" theory are impossible to scientifically support. It requires as much faith to believe that long ago and far away nothing exploded, and eventually gave rise to your breath.

Please ask about anything. The scientists in the 1950's who attempted to create life in the laboratory from non-living matter was a miserable failure. There is a great deception about that. The story of the moths near the coal-burning factory in England is a lie. There is an explanation for that too.

Just a few comments about the different types of evolution before moving on. Cosmic evolution is so dumb, it requires no further comment. And yet, that would have to happen before anything else on the list "presumably occurred". Chemical evolution the evolutionists say happened by fusion. Well, from hydrogen, fusion cannot go past iron. How'd the rest of the higher elements come about? There's no evolutionary explanation how they might've come about. Stellar and planetary evolution is very easy to discount in many many layman's explanations. Conservation of angular momentum. That physical law says that something that breaks off a spinning object will itself spin the same direction as the "mother" object. 8 of our solar systems 91 moons spin the wrong way. Entire galaxies spin the wrong way! No way did the Big Bang happen in this physical universe! Organic evolution. The guys who sought to make life in the laboratory. They failed. They did come up with a couple amino acids, just a fraction of which is required to make the simplest protein necessary for life. But, they excluded oxygen from their experiment because before any amino acids could bond, they would've been destroyed by the oxidation the oxygen gas would do, like it causes rust on iron, or rot of a fruit. They made mostly tar and other chemical compounds toxic to life. They didn't do the experiment right. A single celled paramesium is more complex than the space shuttle... so then the chicken and the egg problem arises... out of millions of ordered chemicals, and thousands of necessary processes, and hundreds of systems in that single celled organism, which came first? Macro-evolution is the Darwinian genre of evolution. One kind of organism changing into another over time. IF the earth is billions of years old like evolutionists say, then as the "species" made their slow change into other species, we should at least find some intermediate fossils among the TRILLIONS of fossils on earth. Not one is found. Some strange animals, extinct animals, but all distinctly their own kind... no half and halfs. Consider the eye. It's incredibly complex, more than man will ever be able to replicate. For millions of years before an eye on an organism was functional, the "evolution process" (getting rid of what isn't needed) would not have let the eye develop. Micro-evolution is deceiving. There already exists in any person or kind of animal much more genetic information than is displayed. For example, recessive and dominant genes for certain color eyes. I am brown eyed, but if I happen to have a child with blue eyes, that isn't evolution. The information that already existed, and was not changed, was simply brought forth.

With all that said, and it's just like .00000000001% of the discrediting evidences against evolution, it should be quite clear that evolution doesn't exist and cannot explain who we are, where we came from, why we're here and where we will go. So if no evidence supports the theory of evolution, it ought to be put in the garbage. What alternate theory is there? Creation.

Do you know that evolution is tax supported? It couldn't survive without tax money. In my own home state, under the Alaska HighSchool Academic standards, it requires evolution to be taught as science. The same is true for nearly 100% of the US. And if the brief statements above don't convince you that evolution is as much a "faith" or "belief" or flat out fairy tale of speculative science, sorry, you can't be helped! It sure looks like evolution is a religion, and gov't supported to boot!

Alright, God says He made the universe and all that is in it. And he made it in six literal days, about 6,000 years ago. There is equally as much scientific support for creation as there is "unsupport" for evolution. If that's true, then he owns everything, including us! If he owns us and where we live, then he can put his own rules upon his creation. If he doesn't want you going to topless bars, who are you to say different since you are not responsible for even yourself being here? But hey, you know what? All mankind from the beginning is incapable of living up to God's standards. That's why he supernaturally sent his Son Jesus to conquer spiritual death for us, that we may be justified to God for passage into heaven.

So someone says, okay, looks like the theory of evolution is dumb and or untrue... but you still haven't proven God. What do we know about him then?

He is not bound by any of the physical laws or limitations of the physical universe we know (and have yet to know!). That is why he (to me, and others) is worth believing in! We humans are bound by time. God isn't. Time has physical properties. It can be sped up and slowed down, as demonstrated in the laboratory. However, we cannot go back, no go forward. Eternity doesn't mean forever, eternity means a complete absence of time. Wow.

What would you say is the best thing about being a human being is? Ultimately, you can chop it down to perhaps this: Man is sovereign. He, be choice can choose whatever he is capable of coming up with in his own mind. Freedom of choice. If you throw out God, yes, you can do that. But I think it'd be foolish considering all the evidence out there, real scientific evidence, that points towards a creator.

Well anyway, nothing can be said in a reasonable length of text or a given period of time on this subject. It seems never ending. But maybe some things said will bring further debate or questions, which I'd be glad to respond to.

Humanist View (Evolutionism)----------Creationist View (God Made)
1) random collection of chemicals------God's purposeful creation
2) an explosion of nothing (big bang)-----Spoken into existence
3) no purpose---------to glorify God
4) become recycled organically--------to eternal life in heaven

Amen.

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by KoyukKFX
1) Who am I?
2) Where did I come from?
3) Why am I here?
4) Where am I going when I die?

These are the great philosophical questions man has always sought to answer throughout his own history.

How you answer these questions depends upon how you view the world.

Boiled down, there ends up being two world views:

Before we get there, lets consider the things that lead us to one of two beliefs.

Creation: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

In those 10 words, which happen to be the first 10 words of the bible, there is alot more than you first realize. "In the beginning..." refers to time. Time has three dimensions; past, present, future. "...heavens..." refers to space. Space has three dimensions; length, width, heighth. "...earth..." refers to matter. Matter has three dimensions; solid, liquid, gas.

Already, in the first sentence of the bible, there is reference to science. Funny thing is, God created the laws of science before all else.

Evolution: "About 20 billion years ago, nothing started spinning and ended up spinning so fast that it exploded."

First, there are hundreds of individual known problems with the age of the universe being millions let alone billions of years old. All age problems are scientific evidences which are true, that even the evolutionist would agree to. Second, how could "nothing" explode? If nothing were actually something, why would it start spinning in the first place?

Keep in mind, if you have any questions about anything I state, feel free to ask. I have a unwavering answer to every word in each sentence I will say. There are many statements made that would take too much space if expanded to their full explanations. So pick and choose what you want explanation on.

There has been so many different things in this debate thread brought up. I'll bring up a couple of them. One is "you can't prove God and you can't prove evolution." True. But, you can DISPROVE evolution, and what do you have left? No one can disprove God.

Evolution is the complete opposite of Creation on every issue. But first, what is meant by evolution?
There are 6 meanings to the word.
1) Cosmic evolution: origin of time, space and matter (BigBang)
2) Chemical evolution: origin of higher elements from hydrogen
3) Stellar and planetary evolution: origin of stars and planets
4) Organic evolution: origin of life from non-living, inanimate matter
5) Macro-evolution: change of one kind of life form into another
6) Micro-evolution: variations within a kind (this has been observed, but has serious limitations)

Each of the above listed types of evolution necessary to support a "No God" theory are impossible to scientifically support. It requires as much faith to believe that long ago and far away nothing exploded, and eventually gave rise to your breath.

Please ask about anything. The scientists in the 1950's who attempted to create life in the laboratory from non-living matter was a miserable failure. There is a great deception about that. The story of the moths near the coal-burning factory in England is a lie. There is an explanation for that too.

Just a few comments about the different types of evolution before moving on. Cosmic evolution is so dumb, it requires no further comment. And yet, that would have to happen before anything else on the list "presumably occurred". Chemical evolution the evolutionists say happened by fusion. Well, from hydrogen, fusion cannot go past iron. How'd the rest of the higher elements come about? There's no evolutionary explanation how they might've come about. Stellar and planetary evolution is very easy to discount in many many layman's explanations. Conservation of angular momentum. That physical law says that something that breaks off a spinning object will itself spin the same direction as the "mother" object. 8 of our solar systems 91 moons spin the wrong way. Entire galaxies spin the wrong way! No way did the Big Bang happen in this physical universe! Organic evolution. The guys who sought to make life in the laboratory. They failed. They did come up with a couple amino acids, just a fraction of which is required to make the simplest protein necessary for life. But, they excluded oxygen from their experiment because before any amino acids could bond, they would've been destroyed by the oxidation the oxygen gas would do, like it causes rust on iron, or rot of a fruit. They made mostly tar and other chemical compounds toxic to life. They didn't do the experiment right. A single celled paramesium is more complex than the space shuttle... so then the chicken and the egg problem arises... out of millions of ordered chemicals, and thousands of necessary processes, and hundreds of systems in that single celled organism, which came first? Macro-evolution is the Darwinian genre of evolution. One kind of organism changing into another over time. IF the earth is billions of years old like evolutionists say, then as the "species" made their slow change into other species, we should at least find some intermediate fossils among the TRILLIONS of fossils on earth. Not one is found. Some strange animals, extinct animals, but all distinctly their own kind... no half and halfs. Consider the eye. It's incredibly complex, more than man will ever be able to replicate. For millions of years before an eye on an organism was functional, the "evolution process" (getting rid of what isn't needed) would not have let the eye develop. Micro-evolution is deceiving. There already exists in any person or kind of animal much more genetic information than is displayed. For example, recessive and dominant genes for certain color eyes. I am brown eyed, but if I happen to have a child with blue eyes, that isn't evolution. The information that already existed, and was not changed, was simply brought forth.

With all that said, and it's just like .00000000001% of the discrediting evidences against evolution, it should be quite clear that evolution doesn't exist and cannot explain who we are, where we came from, why we're here and where we will go. So if no evidence supports the theory of evolution, it ought to be put in the garbage. What alternate theory is there? Creation.

Do you know that evolution is tax supported? It couldn't survive without tax money. In my own home state, under the Alaska HighSchool Academic standards, it requires evolution to be taught as science. The same is true for nearly 100% of the US. And if the brief statements above don't convince you that evolution is as much a "faith" or "belief" or flat out fairy tale of speculative science, sorry, you can't be helped! It sure looks like evolution is a religion, and gov't supported to boot!

Alright, God says He made the universe and all that is in it. And he made it in six literal days, about 6,000 years ago. There is equally as much scientific support for creation as there is "unsupport" for evolution. If that's true, then he owns everything, including us! If he owns us and where we live, then he can put his own rules upon his creation. If he doesn't want you going to topless bars, who are you to say different since you are not responsible for even yourself being here? But hey, you know what? All mankind from the beginning is incapable of living up to God's standards. That's why he supernaturally sent his Son Jesus to conquer spiritual death for us, that we may be justified to God for passage into heaven.

So someone says, okay, looks like the theory of evolution is dumb and or untrue... but you still haven't proven God. What do we know about him then?

He is not bound by any of the physical laws or limitations of the physical universe we know (and have yet to know!). That is why he (to me, and others) is worth believing in! We humans are bound by time. God isn't. Time has physical properties. It can be sped up and slowed down, as demonstrated in the laboratory. However, we cannot go back, no go forward. Eternity doesn't mean forever, eternity means a complete absence of time. Wow.

What would you say is the best thing about being a human being is? Ultimately, you can chop it down to perhaps this: Man is sovereign. He, be choice can choose whatever he is capable of coming up with in his own mind. Freedom of choice. If you throw out God, yes, you can do that. But I think it'd be foolish considering all the evidence out there, real scientific evidence, that points towards a creator.

Well anyway, nothing can be said in a reasonable length of text or a given period of time on this subject. It seems never ending. But maybe some things said will bring further debate or questions, which I'd be glad to respond to.

Humanist View (Evolutionism)----------Creationist View (God Made)
1) random collection of chemicals------God's purposeful creation
2) an explosion of nothing (big bang)-----Spoken into existence
3) no purpose---------to glorify God
4) become recycled organically--------to eternal life in heaven


Not much to do up in Alaska huh:ermm:

[Atkins]

Originally posted by AtvMxRider
:rolleyes:

Yea, I thought it was too much trouble so I was trying to let it die.

KoyukKFX did you write that, or did you copy >paste it from a website?


Originally posted by AtvMxRider
Not much to do up in Alaska huh:ermm:
LMAO:blah:

[trick450r]

Originally posted by KoyukKFX
1) Who am I?
2) Where did I come from?
3) Why am I here?
4) Where am I going when I die?

These are the great philosophical questions man has always sought to answer throughout his own history.

How you answer these questions depends upon how you view the world.

Boiled down, there ends up being two world views:

Before we get there, lets consider the things that lead us to one of two beliefs.

Creation: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

In those 10 words, which happen to be the first 10 words of the bible, there is alot more than you first realize. "In the beginning..." refers to time. Time has three dimensions; past, present, future. "...heavens..." refers to space. Space has three dimensions; length, width, heighth. "...earth..." refers to matter. Matter has three dimensions; solid, liquid, gas.

Already, in the first sentence of the bible, there is reference to science. Funny thing is, God created the laws of science before all else.

Evolution: "About 20 billion years ago, nothing started spinning and ended up spinning so fast that it exploded."

First, there are hundreds of individual known problems with the age of the universe being millions let alone billions of years old. All age problems are scientific evidences which are true, that even the evolutionist would agree to. Second, how could "nothing" explode? If nothing were actually something, why would it start spinning in the first place?

Keep in mind, if you have any questions about anything I state, feel free to ask. I have a unwavering answer to every word in each sentence I will say. There are many statements made that would take too much space if expanded to their full explanations. So pick and choose what you want explanation on.

There has been so many different things in this debate thread brought up. I'll bring up a couple of them. One is "you can't prove God and you can't prove evolution." True. But, you can DISPROVE evolution, and what do you have left? No one can disprove God.

Evolution is the complete opposite of Creation on every issue. But first, what is meant by evolution?
There are 6 meanings to the word.
1) Cosmic evolution: origin of time, space and matter (BigBang)
2) Chemical evolution: origin of higher elements from hydrogen
3) Stellar and planetary evolution: origin of stars and planets
4) Organic evolution: origin of life from non-living, inanimate matter
5) Macro-evolution: change of one kind of life form into another
6) Micro-evolution: variations within a kind (this has been observed, but has serious limitations)

Each of the above listed types of evolution necessary to support a "No God" theory are impossible to scientifically support. It requires as much faith to believe that long ago and far away nothing exploded, and eventually gave rise to your breath.

Please ask about anything. The scientists in the 1950's who attempted to create life in the laboratory from non-living matter was a miserable failure. There is a great deception about that. The story of the moths near the coal-burning factory in England is a lie. There is an explanation for that too.

Just a few comments about the different types of evolution before moving on. Cosmic evolution is so dumb, it requires no further comment. And yet, that would have to happen before anything else on the list "presumably occurred". Chemical evolution the evolutionists say happened by fusion. Well, from hydrogen, fusion cannot go past iron. How'd the rest of the higher elements come about? There's no evolutionary explanation how they might've come about. Stellar and planetary evolution is very easy to discount in many many layman's explanations. Conservation of angular momentum. That physical law says that something that breaks off a spinning object will itself spin the same direction as the "mother" object. 8 of our solar systems 91 moons spin the wrong way. Entire galaxies spin the wrong way! No way did the Big Bang happen in this physical universe! Organic evolution. The guys who sought to make life in the laboratory. They failed. They did come up with a couple amino acids, just a fraction of which is required to make the simplest protein necessary for life. But, they excluded oxygen from their experiment because before any amino acids could bond, they would've been destroyed by the oxidation the oxygen gas would do, like it causes rust on iron, or rot of a fruit. They made mostly tar and other chemical compounds toxic to life. They didn't do the experiment right. A single celled paramesium is more complex than the space shuttle... so then the chicken and the egg problem arises... out of millions of ordered chemicals, and thousands of necessary processes, and hundreds of systems in that single celled organism, which came first? Macro-evolution is the Darwinian genre of evolution. One kind of organism changing into another over time. IF the earth is billions of years old like evolutionists say, then as the "species" made their slow change into other species, we should at least find some intermediate fossils among the TRILLIONS of fossils on earth. Not one is found. Some strange animals, extinct animals, but all distinctly their own kind... no half and halfs. Consider the eye. It's incredibly complex, more than man will ever be able to replicate. For millions of years before an eye on an organism was functional, the "evolution process" (getting rid of what isn't needed) would not have let the eye develop. Micro-evolution is deceiving. There already exists in any person or kind of animal much more genetic information than is displayed. For example, recessive and dominant genes for certain color eyes. I am brown eyed, but if I happen to have a child with blue eyes, that isn't evolution. The information that already existed, and was not changed, was simply brought forth.

With all that said, and it's just like .00000000001% of the discrediting evidences against evolution, it should be quite clear that evolution doesn't exist and cannot explain who we are, where we came from, why we're here and where we will go. So if no evidence supports the theory of evolution, it ought to be put in the garbage. What alternate theory is there? Creation.

Do you know that evolution is tax supported? It couldn't survive without tax money. In my own home state, under the Alaska HighSchool Academic standards, it requires evolution to be taught as science. The same is true for nearly 100% of the US. And if the brief statements above don't convince you that evolution is as much a "faith" or "belief" or flat out fairy tale of speculative science, sorry, you can't be helped! It sure looks like evolution is a religion, and gov't supported to boot!

Alright, God says He made the universe and all that is in it. And he made it in six literal days, about 6,000 years ago. There is equally as much scientific support for creation as there is "unsupport" for evolution. If that's true, then he owns everything, including us! If he owns us and where we live, then he can put his own rules upon his creation. If he doesn't want you going to topless bars, who are you to say different since you are not responsible for even yourself being here? But hey, you know what? All mankind from the beginning is incapable of living up to God's standards. That's why he supernaturally sent his Son Jesus to conquer spiritual death for us, that we may be justified to God for passage into heaven.

So someone says, okay, looks like the theory of evolution is dumb and or untrue... but you still haven't proven God. What do we know about him then?

He is not bound by any of the physical laws or limitations of the physical universe we know (and have yet to know!). That is why he (to me, and others) is worth believing in! We humans are bound by time. God isn't. Time has physical properties. It can be sped up and slowed down, as demonstrated in the laboratory. However, we cannot go back, no go forward. Eternity doesn't mean forever, eternity means a complete absence of time. Wow.

What would you say is the best thing about being a human being is? Ultimately, you can chop it down to perhaps this: Man is sovereign. He, be choice can choose whatever he is capable of coming up with in his own mind. Freedom of choice. If you throw out God, yes, you can do that. But I think it'd be foolish considering all the evidence out there, real scientific evidence, that points towards a creator.

Well anyway, nothing can be said in a reasonable length of text or a given period of time on this subject. It seems never ending. But maybe some things said will bring further debate or questions, which I'd be glad to respond to.

Humanist View (Evolutionism)----------Creationist View (God Made)
1) random collection of chemicals------God's purposeful creation
2) an explosion of nothing (big bang)-----Spoken into existence
3) no purpose---------to glorify God
4) become recycled organically--------to eternal life in heaven


shalome buddy....i bet you could kick jesse jacksons ***** eh?


seriously though...im agnostic...common sense leads me to believe that its all bullspit...but who knows...