+3 standard or +3 longtravel

[GOTFEAR]

+3 standard or +3 longtravel . I race with sequads and im a (B) rider. im a upfront runer on my 250r with +3 standard travel shock (17in) long star my qestion is should i go longtravel . the only reason im thiking this is all my compediters are runing them and will it be better for me. im the same age as Doug Gust but not as fast. is it worth the $$$$$$$$$$$$$ or what

[beerock]

worth every penny, go LT then youll have to go to A class especially if your keepin up with guys with LT front ends.

or just stay in B until you get tired of smokin everyone then start A.. if you want to really get the most out of making the switch and be ready for A class riders try to save up for a pro trax front end. the advantage of it compared to others is the ability to put alot of negative camber on the tires so you can rail the turns faster. and no bumpsteer

[BLACKeR]

if you want to really get the most out of making the switch and be ready for A class riders try to save up for a pro trax front end.

if your going to get a long travel in my opinion the pro trax is the only one worth it. a lot of long travel set up dont get any more travel than standard travel. i saw a write up once by a guy who had a PEP long travel set up and a PEP standard set up that was set up perfectly. he said the standard travel set performed better, and had more shaft travel. a lot of the long travel set ups arnt anythign more than somethign to spend $$$ on. most of the time they perform better than what someone already had on the bike because they are newer technology. it is easier for the manufacturer to get the valving right. but i dont think you will notice much of a difference between a long travel set up and what you have now. that is as long as what you have now is set up right i know i always open a hornets nest when i say such evil things. but ive heard way to many real suspention gurus say long travel isnt what people say it is. a more accurate term might be "long shock"

[gimp419]

I agree about the pro-trax, 100%. But any long travel is gonna help you out. 17inch shocks can only give you so much, a 20 inch shock is 3 more inches and X amount of travel depending on which front end you choose. For a 250R the Pro-trax is awesome, very pricey but very nice. A Gibson, Walsh, or DC-4 will give you a major difference as well. But like he said above not every LT arm out there is gonna be that much better than what you got. You'll really notice it on jumps and on a rough track though. Just make sure you choose a set-up that uses 400ex spindles, they are twice as tough as the 250R. The pro-trax actually comes with it's own custom bind free spindles. Just do some research and if nothing else find out what your competitors are riding and how they like it, take a ride on their bikes etc...
Hope this helps some.

[mxracer97]

When I rebuilt my 250R I was faced with the same dilemma you are--long travel or standard travel? I decided to give Custom Axis a call and get their opinion on the subject since I would be purchasing their shocks. They told me that the "long travel" suspension didn't actually provide more suspension travel. What it did do was allow you to use a longer shock(as most people know). The longer shock length allows for increased shaft travel and more fluid capacity, which I was told enhances the adjustability of the shocks, reduces heat build-up, reduces shock fading, and increases the performance of the travel you DO have. Hearing that you have increased shaft travel would lead you to believe you would have increased wheel travel, but this isn't necessarily true. In the case of my Lonestar DC-4/Axis setup, the lower shock mounting point is located further outbound on the lower a-arm allowing room for the longer shock (the gull wing bend also adds additional room). By doing this it negates the increased shaft travel and leaves you with the same amount of wheel travel you have with the standard +3 a-arms and shocks. Now, if you mounted the LT shocks in the same position as the standard travel shocks you would certainly gain some travel, but your a-arms wouldn't have enough down travel to accomodate the longer shocks. Even if they did your quad would sit extremely high.

It seems to me that since your front wheels travel in an arc, wheel travel can be defined by using a simple geometry equation: arc length(wheel travel)= arc radius(a-arm length) * degrees of rotation(degrees of a-arm rotation). If your a-arm length is fixed and not changing, and your degrees of a-arm rotation is fixed, how can you gain more wheel travel? Of course, there are ways of gaining degrees of a-arm rotation -- e.g. increasing the ride height of the quad as some desert racers do. Also, if you have the money to buy a Laegar Pro-Trax narrow front end chassis or a Roll Lobo chassis, your a-arm length can be increased(because of the narrow front end) which can also give you some additional wheel travel.

In the end I decided to go with the LT setup, but I needed new a-arms and shocks anyway. If I had already had +3 a-arms and a good set of shocks, I don't think I would have spent the money on a LT setup. With that said I believe there are perfomance advantages with the LT setup over your setup, but is it enough to justify the additional cost? That's for you to decide!:p

Sorry for the long post, hope it helps.

[concise]

well said mxracer97:macho 250r narrow leager ,protrax front:D

[beerock]

right you dont really gain travel you change the ratio of movement from standard travel to long travel, BTW standard travel shocks are 16" not 17"

the ratio changes from 2 to 1 (standard) to 1 to 1 (LT)

this allows less shocks fade and allows the shock builder to valve them more precisely.

[BLACKeR]

bee, you sure 250r shocks are 16? i had a pair of works that were sittign right here this morning and they measured 17, i have a pair of TCS on my bike and they measured 17. i always thought 250R was 17 eye to eye.

also the increased cooling of long shock set ups is a myth because they also have more shaft velocity, which makes more heat. and as said before i saw a write up where a guy actually got more shaft travel out of standard length shocks, than his long travel PEPs. i think it would be interestign to see if you too 2 equally priced set ups one long travel and one standard travel. which one would perform better. an average cost for long travel is close to $2500. spend that much on a standard travel and see which one is better.

its nice to see some intelligent responce from peopel here though. i said the exact same thing in the suspention forum once and was instantly flamed by a bunch of 15 year olds on 250ex's

[slamdak8782]

I hate that about this forum but I got to thinking about it one day and I bet you in five years those 15yr old punks will know a whole lot more. There are a whole lot more of them than older folks so the site should be very rich in info in the coming years. But until then :rolleyes:

[BLACKeR]

I hate that about this forum but I got to thinking about it one day and I bet you in five years those 15yr old punks will know a whole lot more. There are a whole lot more of them than older folks so the site should be very rich in info in the coming years. But until then

yeah your right. i myself havent been on the forums that long, i cant imagine the guys that have been on here ever since. but you see a lot of the forums going down the crapper. when i first started lurking way back on offroad.com it seemed like almost everyone was smart, or at least respectful. the old school ATVers. had to get by with so little, no factory sponcership racing old 250R's etc. they all had to get along and use their heads to make stuff work. now ATV's are so popular and every 15 year old has parents that bought him one. they all seem to think they're geniuses. who can never be wrong. ive seen a lot of the smart "old timers" slowly disapear from the forums. theres still a couple names i reconize here and there. i can only assume that they get driven off by flamer punk kids

[wilkin250r]

The old-timers don't always leave.

When I first got on these forums, I didn't know jack. My girlfriend had a 400EX, and I didn't have nothin. I came across a 250X for sale, and I had no idea if it was 2-stroke or 4-stroke.

Look how far I've come. :D

[Eddiesanders250]

haha wow, it seems you have come a little ways.

[elchankoblanko]

Just dont assume all the kids on here are like that, Im 16 and i know i dont know everthing ill put my opinion in there but i def wont be disrespectful to anybody no matter what there age is.

[gimp419]

Well I've had both the +3 standard travel with top of the line Axis shocks I thought that they worked really well... Until I got my LT front end. I have a Merrell Extreme +3, which is built a lot like the JRD front end on my two stroke and I like it well enough. It's turns lightning fast, almost to fast. I'm running 20.5 Elka quadrates and all I know is that the wheels drop a whole hell of a lot more than they did when I had the standard travel front end on it. I have also tried 20 inch PEP's which don't have anywhere near the travel of the quadrate elkas. Remember it's hard to get a ZPS shock in standard travel, they make em but they just don't sag like a LT shock will.
I currently run a pro-trax +3 on my PRP hybrid with the 20.5 elka's and I love it more than anything I've ever riden, it's that good! Take my word for it, LT is worth it, just get the right setup.

[BLACKeR]

pro trax is worth it. few other set ups are. as said before by other members you do not gain travel with "long travel" set ups. any stardard travel shock thats any good will have ZPS, and will sag just as much as the "long travel" shocks. i think people buy into long travel much of the time for the same reason they can take a sugar pill and think it fixed their back pain, teyre sure its better therefor it is. if you want long travel get a pro trax. its one of the only set ups that actually physically allows for it. many of the set ups are limited by the stock spindles and whatever attachment the company uses. the laeger T-pin spindles are one of the few that actually allow extra travel.

[beerock]

Originally posted by BLACKeR
bee, you sure 250r shocks are 16? i had a pair of works that were sittign right here this morning and they measured 17, i have a pair of TCS on my bike and they measured 17. i always thought 250R was 17 eye to eye.

also the increased cooling of long shock set ups is a myth because they also have more shaft velocity, which makes more heat. and as said before i saw a write up where a guy actually got more shaft travel out of standard length shocks, than his long travel PEPs. i think it would be interestign to see if you too 2 equally priced set ups one long travel and one standard travel. which one would perform better. an average cost for long travel is close to $2500. spend that much on a standard travel and see which one is better.

its nice to see some intelligent responce from peopel here though. i said the exact same thing in the suspention forum once and was instantly flamed by a bunch of 15 year olds on 250ex's





a standard travel has a 2 to 1 ratio and a LT has a 1 to 1 ratio

rough example
(1" up travel on standard travel a-arm is 2" on the shock)

in other words, the standard travel shocks moves twice as more as the LT shock, which produces more heat and velocity

[rebelbanshee]

I believe its the other way around. Its 2" of wheel travle equals travel 1" shock travel. Think about it, the farther you are away from the frame pivot point the longer the arc the arm moves it is. Right by the frame the arm barely moves. Whereas by the spindle it moves several inches. So the Long shock mounted near the spindle is moving farther and hence going faster for the same amount of wheel travel.

[BLACKeR]

I believe its the other way around. Its 2" of wheel travle equals travel 1" shock travel. Think about it, the farther you are away from the frame pivot point the longer the arc the arm moves it is. Right by the frame the arm barely moves. Whereas by the spindle it moves several inches. So the Long shock mounted near the spindle is moving farther and hence going faster for the same amount of wheel travel.


yup...

[GOTFEAR]

Dag-gonit i didint know that i would get this kind off a response on this. i love my +3 LSR std travel Custom axis shocks the more i race the more input i can feed my shock tuner and im faster than ever now but i do wish to move up a class (A). i dont think my 250r is ready what i mean is im fast on it but the other quads seems like their faster than me. im the only one on +3 std travel every where i go. only when the track gets real bad breacking bumps you know like ATVA tracks when the track is fresh im the fastest rider in A and B riders . i ridin 4 strocks with LT and im fast as hell. i just thought it was the weaght of a 4 strock (heavy) nogotiating the rough terain beter than my 250r. i love my R and i will never trade it for a 4 banger. THE MORE YOU TELL ME THE MORE I WILL KNOW.

[beerock]

ya you guys are right i wrote it wrong

i should have wrote the opposite

2" uptravel from spindle is 1" on standard travel.

2" uptravel on spidle is 2" on LT

thats why the LT is better because the builders can tune the shocks better because the ratio is close to equal. they do have more oil in them but because they move faster like blacker said , the fade thing is prolly a myth but i think they fade less then standard travel shocks.

i had a +2 laeger front end with custom shocks that i built they rode great but only to a certain point. then i got the +3 laeger tpin and it was night and day.

my buddy went from a lsr +2 with tcs shocks to laeger +3 lt(non tpin) and it was night and day diff.

[BLACKeR]

hey gotfear, what kind of rear suspention do you have? is it a stock link set up? if it is changing to a no-link woudl help you a tan. track better through the whoops, be better off jumps. and the harder you ride them the better they work.

ill try to sum up my anti long travel stance. for one they really dont add travel. travel is affected by the a-arms. so lets get that out of the way. if i can get everyone to call them long shock set ups i will die happy :). the stated pros of long shock set ups is that they offer better suspention ratios, which makes them easier to valve and they run cooler. well because of the "better suspention ratio" the shaft travels more. since it has to go a longer distance in the same time as a standard length shock it must travel faster. that generates more heat. so we can throw that out. we are left with better valving. i will not argue this point. it is easier for the builders to get the valving set up. so now were stuck with the average consumer paying $700 dollars more for a shock thats easier to get built?! doesnt seem nescesary to me. im mainly trying to dispell the myth that you need long travel. i dont think the average person could even tell. if your a serious racer, then you have someone working with you on your suspention. he doesnt really need it to be easier to valve if he knows what he is doing. i have heard that you can more precisly set up a standard length shock, its just much more difficult. dont know if its true or not. so is it worth the money to you? i know for me the only long travel i would ever buy woudl be a T-pin spindle set up. that set up allows for completely bind free movement. and i can see it actually making a difference. it does hovever cost $3200 with shocks.

[gimp419]

I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I have to disagree about there being no real advantage, or that it's not worth the money. This thread is about a guy trying to figure out if going LT will make him a faster rider. When I switched mine over from ST to LT it greatly improved my average lap times. My first laps weren't that much different, but the extra suspension travel (I'm sorry guys there is more travel) let me set up my shocks super soft without them bottoming out and this let me hang on to the quad a lot longer on a rough national track. So to answer the question that was asked, YES the LT will make you faster and you'll find it easier to ride fast in the rough stuff. But eventually you'll also have to address the rear end. I ran a stock link and Axis shock for years, I always wanted to upgrade but my Aren's frame wasn't setup for it. I've got a PRP CRF now with the CRF linkage in the rear and I puke everytime I have to ride my stock link R, it's that much difference. If LT wasn't worth the money then nobody would have it. I'm sorry if I disagree with you guys on this it's just my personal experience racing nationals that LT setups are far superior to the ST ones that we all used to run.

[BLACKeR]

If LT wasn't worth the money then nobody would have it.

hehe if only that were the truth. tell that to everone who has a boost bottle on their banshee. and if you can explain to me how you get more travel ill believe you. there have been people who using basic geometric and scientific principles have showed how it doesnt affect travel. if you can proove them wrong i would appreciate it. it sounds to me like you just got a better set of shocks. theres a guy on this site, name is TBD seems to know what hes talking about. theres a post by him on the bottom of this thread read it. he has real experience, not just what he heard. http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=184802 i realize gotfear is getting more than he asked for. but is it worth it for him to spend the money if the difference is nominal? not really he could probly improve his lap times by putting that money elsewhere. aftermarket frame or a no link back end, if he doesnt have either.

[beerock]

im disagreeing with ya blacker. LT is way better, as long as you have the right set of arms like, laeger, walsh or roll

some companies build arms and copy others and change things that hamper the dynamics so choice of a-arms is critical.

if you look at the jrd arms next to roll, youll see they moved themouting point out on the shock and there angled more(to much i believe)

[gimp419]

It's usless I give up. It's not worth the brain power to argue. But if ST is so great then how come at least 75% of the racers at a national have LT? Are we all wasting our money? Do my 8 years of racing experience at the national level even matter? Oh and my ST Axis shocks were top of the line and great for what they were. They just weren't LT, but like I said I give up you win!

[BLACKeR]

LMAO look im not trying to make this ugly. im simply saying that from more than one suspention guru i have heard that LT does not make that much difference. i have never tried LT i do know there are plenty of things that get used for no better reason other than people for some reason want it. so i dont have any experience with it, i just knwo what i have read and reasurched. and i cant get by this quote from a guy who is odviously in the business. i just havent seen the arguements from the suspention guys themselves, no hard feelings...you like it, i dont see it...i just hope the poor guy who started the thread isnt totally confused now :D


The main reason I designed and built "Long shock" a-arms is because that most of you believe there is this huge advantange and will only use the LS style arms. If the demand is there then build it. As far as the shock staying cooler, it doesn't. You may have more oil volume but you also have more shaft velocity which creates more energy which is then turned into heat. It pretty much balances out. If the shock builders would put as much time and testing into standard travel shocks you would be very surprised what you would come up with. I know our testing has proved that.

Blacker you got it right on about the LONGSHOCK aka LONGTRAVEL. The trx250r shock is 16 1/4 stock. Just because the shock is longer does not mean more trave. I do think protrax is best setup out there for IMO.

WWW.*****.COM

[slamdak8782]

I once was like you blacker and I got my LT on one week ago trust me its a lot better

[blb515]

slamdak, could you explain why you think the long travel setup is better versus standard? How much ride time have you put in on both?

thanks,

blb

[GOTFEAR]

I have std LSR swingarme and a custome axis shock. 86 style arm. the reason i have a 86 style is that i like riding with my armes stretched out and leaning far back on the seat i feel fast and im not that tall 5-11. i use LSR stering steem +1 and std cr bend bars and my ground clerance from the bottom of the frame under the foot peg is 6-1/4 then up front behind the rear a arme under the frame is 6-3/4 and my weight is 168. what ya think. i dont mind spending $$$$$$$ as long as it improves my lap times oh yea im riding a stock 88 frame . the more you type the more i learn (i need to learn how to spell)

[BLACKeR]

i hear ya on the spelling, ive never been able to spell for crap either. i think a no link shock set up would help you a lot. my bro's R has a no-link set up and through the rough stuff i notice a big difference from my stock link. you talked about your suspention guy, have you asked him about any of this?

[slamdak8782]

i havent put much ride time on but basically if you take a turn you can go about 3 times faster. Because of the way they sag. I cant really explain it. You just have to feal it to believe it. You can take landings that would normally smash your teeth into the bar and instead you barely feel it. Its awesome.

[gimp419]

Hey no hard feelings here either, I've just put in a lot of time on both ST and LT R's. About 4 years on a ST and 3 on LT, the LT just works better. Maybe the shock makers could make ST shocks that will perform with the LT, but right now they don't. If you want the best right now you gotta get LT. The first race that I ever ran my Merrell/Elka combo I shaved major lap time. It cornered better and soaked up the breakers, I was really amazed. To be truthful I wasn't expecting that big of a difference either. Until you've rode a really good LT setup you'll never know, I know I didn't. It just sucks cause I wasted all those years racing a ST, stock link bike against LT, CR500 link bikes. Only now do I realize that I was taking a knife to a gun fight, LOL! If only I'd had the setup I've got now a few years ago.
With the ST stock link I had basically pushed the suspension to it's limit, I was riding the bike to the best of it's ability not mine. Kind of like when you outgrow the stock suspension, it is just holding you back.

[BLACKeR]

does anyone have experience switching to no link? i plan on switching to a no-link set up next year. and was curious if it really makes as huge a difference as they say. my bro's does work better than mine, but he might has a better shock too. some day i would like to get a pro trax front end, but cant justify it right now...gimp i hear ya on the long travel working better. whenever i reasurch this issue. i always hear all the testimonials about how much better it works, and how it shaved lap times. then i see the replys from the guys who build suspention and they always without exception say the difference in strictly in the ability to build them easier. so im stuck here trying to figure it out *shrug* it sounds like it does make a difference. the point im trying to make is that if by their own admission ST can be as good, why are we all paying so much more for LT?

[gimp419]

Well we pay out the butt for everything in this sport. The only hope a person has is to get good enough to get good sponsors. I personally have no experience with the no-link rear, but from what people have told me it works a lot better than the stock link. It's my understanding though that you have to mod the rear shock mount on the frame, at least to make it work the absolute best it can. If I were going to do any frame cutting, I'd send it off and have it converted to accept a CRF or CR500 linkage system. You just can't beat that setup on the rear end.

[GOTFEAR]

I do have a t-pin leager cr 500 longtravel link and swingarme with a 96 cr500 motor its a work in progress ftz is making me a pipe and next is custom axis front shocks and then it ready to run. i have a cr500 axis tripple rate rear. dont aske me why i did the cr500 motor well i will tell you crazzy speed and two strock grunt. rulles dont aply in sequads we run what ya brung but my love for my stock frame 250r is stronger than my cr500 . i wont my R two run and handle the best it can and inprove my lap times.i have never ridin a t-pine lts.

[250R Baja Rider]

I recently switched to a no-link rear set up. Big difference!! It is smoother and as of today I have not felt the rear bottom out.

My friend just turned his to a CR500 set up. That is even better than the no-link.

Now, if no-link and the CR500 set ups are better, why aren't Yamaha nor Honda using these set-ups on their "race ready" 450s? Who knows......

[GOTFEAR]

Baja is that a stock R frame are what

[Meat]

yo yo yo, long travel is thee way to go go go. Im riding on ARS|FX a-arms with 19 inch Axis shocks. its an '89 250r and itts unstoppable. The faster and more aggressive you ride, the better the LT front end works. Newbies to the sport could be wasting their money on LT, racers on the other hand... money well spent.

[250R Baja Rider]

Gotfear.

I tried both: a stock geometry frame (LSR) with a Roll design no link swingarm. It worked good, but the quad sat too low. I do desert racing and I needed a little more ground clearance.

Someone sold me a PRP frame who is set up for a no link rear using the stock shock mount with a no link shock. This gives me more ground clearance and it works really smooth.

The prp frame has the top shock mount located 2 inches higher than stock frames. That's how you can mount the no link shock straight to the the stock swingarm. Man, this set up works so good, now I have friends modifying their stock frames (move the top shock mount 2 inches higher) to use the same set up I have.

I get about 2 more inches of ground clearance than using stock frames and the no link roll swingarm.

[GOTFEAR]

BAJA is desert racing hard on your equipment and is LT verry important or could you do the same with +3 STT 17in shocks

[250R Baja Rider]

I had ST PEPS Shocks before and after a few miles into a racing, they would sag and get really hot. I switched to Axis ST and they worked a lot better.

ST would work fine, but being a smaller shock taking hard pounding abuse, they fade faster. I have never seen anybody in baja running anything other than LT.

[beerock]

got fear, youd be even faster with a shorter swing arm if you like hanging off the back, you way the same as me and i have a 88 style swingarm that is 3/4" shorter then 88, 1 3/4" shorter then 86. you can go through whoops faster and its easier to pull the front end up when needed to, very little effort.

I run a 250r link. Ive ridden both no link ANd cr500 back to back literally, jumping off one bike and getting on another. the 250r link is right in between both the no link and cr500 link.

the no link is better for whoops the cr500 is better for jumpin. the 250r link is in the middle. You do need a good tuned shock to work well with the stock link.

any builder that ONLY uses LS a-arms I wouldnt trust much. I have facts that I cant go into but, the geometry on there a-arms is not very good. travis spader was sponsored by lsr but he kept breakign there front ends and had a buddy order his roll setup and ran that, lsr got pissed. thats all i can say.

[GOTFEAR]

Your right the 86 style swingarme is hard to keep the frontend up when blitzing through the woops the faster i try or more speed the more the woops beat me

[GOTFEAR]

What swingarme should i be looking for to yous on my stock frame for MX only

[beerock]

1 3/4"over 86-87 style , or 3/4" over 88-89 style

thats my preference though some say 88 is great. you do give up a bit of travel with the shroter arm but the bike is easier to throw around and better through the whoops

the argument that standad travel or long travel is pure BS, reading stuff on the net about someone saying standard travel is better is going on the belief that there bike is better then everyones, there really psyching thereself out because they think theres is the best. SORRY, LT is the BEST PERIOD.

Yes people that don't have the money for it might get mad for me sayin that. and other people who are ignorant to think ST is better because some "builder" said so or they just think, that I feel bad for ya. If this "bulder" shock tuner whatever said that, ask him where is his profesionally sponsored PRO rider is and how good hes doing with his standard travel in the pro ranks.

the LT shocks are BIGGER the dynamic ratio is better, they perform better and last longer.

like i said though, it is critical to pick the right a-arms regardless. the wrong geometry on a-arms can have ill effects on both ST and LT. a bad LT setup will seem bad next to a good ST setup. then theres shock tuning..... I can go on and on, but the LT will perform better if both are tuned by a pro period.

the end

good night.

[GOTFEAR]

Im sold on the arm the arme will be changed and shock reworked. I have all the confedence im my shock man

[GOTFEAR]

I have finaly dun it i just purchased new custom axis long-travel shocks to go with the laeger protrax +3 complet front end ready to see if it helps pickup my speed at the track this weekend if its not raining i will keep ya posted

[beerock]

Originally posted by GOTFEAR
I have finaly dun it i just purchased new custom axis long-travel shocks to go with the laeger protrax +3 complet front end ready to see if it helps pickup my speed at the track this weekend if its not raining i will keep ya posted

oh boy, dude your gonna fall in love with it.

make sure you set some pos camber on the front end. like 1/2"-1"
then when you go into to turns you dont have to slow down just rail the turn WOT. oh man your gonna LOVE it

[GOTFEAR]

The T-pin was AWSOME itys verry smoth and its like having power stering when runing over bumps and ruf the t-pin handles verry well and the bars stay in my hand with ease the only thing that was hard for me was the steering was 10 time sensitve but maid me faster on ruf tracks