Oil Analysis Pays Off

[ridefastrgetoff]

Thought I would introduce myself to you guys / gals since I've only been registered here for a couple days. I've been in the lube industry for over 10 yrs. dealing with all kinds of recreational vehicles and race teams. Oil Analysis has proven key for us over many years in keeping our personal engines in tip-top shape. The test are performed thru an Independant Lab in the Northwest, you take the lube sample stick it in the mail and in a couple weeks you got your results; if you're interested in more info, email me: lubes4u@myexcel.com

I don't think I'm violating the rules here but if I've crossed the line, by all means, let me know; trying to be of help.

[yamaha1470]

you should analyze Mobil1 15w50 Car oil and then compare it to a similar motorcycle oil because there have been many debates if people should use that oil.

[ridefastrgetoff]

This is how Castrol was found to have an inferior product being marketed under the guise of a "Full Synthetic" when in fact it had zero synthetic base-stock from 1997 until late in 2000; that's when Mobil finally won their law-suit against Castrol Syntec Products. The courts ruled however, that if Castrol would put as little as 5% Synthetic Base-stock in their products, they could continue to label them as Full Synthetic; as you have seen, Castrol now has both "Full / Blended" synthetic oils. Because of this ruling, I fear many companies will take advantage and begin to market lubricants that do not provide the protection we have all become accustomed to and thus the need to know exactly what we are buying by having oil analysis performed. Why pay "Full Synthetic Oil" prices if you're not getting full synthetic ?!?!

[ridefastrgetoff]

This kind of response is way more than I expected. You guys / gals have had some really great questions about the effectiveness and legitimacy of oil analysis. In an effort to answer several questions at one time, I'm including those here instead of trying to send individual emails to you all.

Oil Analysis is something that the military has been doing for many years, afterall, when you've got sumps that hold in excess of 500 gallons of oil, it's easy to see why they would want to simply pull samples and have them tested as opposed to completely refilling those like a normal oil change.

Base oils do NOT wear out but the additives do ! This is why the need to analyze your oils is so critical; tiny changes in formulations can have a dramatic effect on the performance of any oil.

Yes, Oil Analysis can detect 15 wear trace elements; different parts of your engine are made from different metals and each has wear rates different from the others, but if a mechanical or lubricant break-down occurs, this tests will put a finger on what could be the culprit. In addition to the wear metals, these tests will also show you the fuel dilution if you have any ( you shouldn't have this problem in these motors because they are so tight ).

Lastly, the cost is $ 14 per test and yes, the results will be mailed directly to you; these are Pre-paid test kits.

Sorry for being so long on the reply.

[ridefastrgetoff]

Another question that keeps coming up: Who does these tests?
Oil Analyzer's Inc. but there's also other independant labs depending on what part of the country you live in to help in delaying downtime. Cleveland Technical Center ( CTC ) in Cleveland, OH and also another one in Washington State but I can't remember the name of it now. Maybe someone out there can help with that one.

[Doibugu2]

I am sure the oil analysis is good and all, but explain why the average rider should pay $14 to find out that there oil is bad? If I think my oil is bad, don't you think that I would spend the 6 bucks on 2 quarts of oil to change it? There is also about 3000 members on this site, and from what I read we only use about 4 different types of oil and have very few problems related to oil breakdowns. Isn't that proof enough that the oil that we are using is pretty decent?

[ridefastrgetoff]

You make a very good point ! If you're using two quarts of oil, that's not a lot of money out of your pocket. Question - How often do you go between oil changes before you decide it's probably time to change it ? Second Question - How do you know if the oil you are changing is good or not ? After you answer, I'll explain in more detail. Thanks.

[Doibugu2]

I usually go about 2 to 3 months before I change the oil. That is more than enough considering how little I get to ride it.

Again, why am I going to spend $14 to find out if my oil is good or not. If I think it is bad, I will just change it.

[86atc250r]

Oil analysis in an ATV application is not to tell you if your oil is "bad" or not, more to give you an indication of how your engine is wearing and where potential trouble areas may be.

How much this info is worth is solely to be determined by yourself - if it's not worth $14 to you, then don't worry about it and move on...

If you'd like to know what's in your oil after a change and how it's additive package is holding up to your typical service interval, then pony up, spend the $14 and find out...

[ridefastrgetoff]

99Thanks 86 ! For those of you who are riding strictly as pleasure seekers, maybe the extra fourteen bucks isn't a major concern to you; however, to those of you who are racing, and you are changing oil every weekend of racing or maybe going as much as three weekends, wouldn't it be nice to know that your normal practices of changing oil are truly protecting your engine ? Also, maybe you're changing oil too frequently, I mean if you guys are using these top-of-the-line lubes and you're changing them that often, you may be spending way more than the $ 14 would cost you to test the oil; if the oil is still good, why change it ? You can establish a base-line for changing oil and this is done on each individual engine cause two engines rarely perform exactly the same even if they are built by the same builder. Get a feel for how long you can go and if you want to take advantage of it, cool, if not that's your choice. Remember, I'm here trying to help save you some money. We all know that about 99.999999% of folks out there riding are spending / not making money. Fuel /or alcohol dilution are two things to look for if you're racing and they play a major part in how well your oil holds up and how well your engine is protected, afterall, you did spend quite a chunk to get that engine to perform, you might as well take care of it.

[Doibugu2]

Ok, I am going to play dumb for a minute here. How is oil analysis going to tell me how my engine is wearing? I can see where oil analysis would tell me if the oil I was using was standing up to the rigors I was putting my quad through. But that would mean you could just test the different oils and tell us which one is the best. Which "ridefast" does not seem to want to do.

He says he is been doing this for over 10 years but does not want to release any information as to what oil he is using. If he was doing this testing for over 10 years and didn't want to make any money off his findings he would tell us what oil he is using. He just wants us to send him $14 for a test. This smells like a scam!

[86atc250r]

Where do you think fine shavings of various types of metal are deposited as your engine wears?

Knowing how much metal (in parts per million) and the type of metal, you can identify trouble areas.

Oil analysis has been around a very long time and is far from a "scam".

Like anything else it's very difficult to ascertain what product is "the best". In fact, it's probably very safe to say there is no "Best" oil - which is why there are so many types available.

However, it is possible to find out how the oil you're using is holding up to your use, your maintenance interval, your engine, your engine's state of tune, your climate, and your riding habits...

If you'd like to see a sample of a typical oil analysis, there are many examples all over the web - a few minutes spent searching will yeild good results.

[Doibugu2]

ridefast, I was writing my reply when you posted yours.

Give us a web site to back up some of your claims. Give us some scientific results from tests you have already performed. Give us some real proof that for the $14 we will be sending you we are going to get something out of it. For gods sake, you have been doing this for 10 years, you have to have some credible proof!

[ridefastrgetoff]

The $ 14 goes entirely to the lab, I get nothing from that ! Yes, I do have credible evidence from several different oils, but like I said earlier, each engine is different. For example, take two 400EX engines and put the same oil in them, ride them exactly the same way in the same conditions ( heat, dust, stress ) and the results you get will be different to some degree. The previous poster seems to be very knowledgeable, not to say you are you are not, on this subject. We are all learning, it's just that this is what I have been doing for some time. I will tell you what oil I use but this forum is not for advertising oils and I want to continue to be of help and not considered to be a "scam" artist. I didn't take that as a slam either, it seems perfectly logical you would think that considering you do not know me or my intentions. Once again, I'm here to share knowledge and information and to try and be of help. I'm off to the races now, that's "Sunset" in Muskogee, OK for those of you in the Oklahoma region. Happy Trails !!!

[4punksdad]

smells like amsoil to me............

[Pappy]

Originally posted by 4punksdad
smells like amsoil to me............

hahaha...i was thinkin the same thing!!

[Leo]

If we were talking about an rig that you wanted to get 600k out of before a rebuild, or an $200k piece of heavy equipement, I'd say oil anaylsis is an excellent tool to help you get maximum life / w minimum donwtime and expense.. (talking gallons of oil per change, and when it's not working, it's not earning!)..

I problably wouldn't consider it on the quad, except maybe to satisfy my own curiosity.. :D

Leo

[ridefastrgetoff]

That's cool ! There's one local rider that has approximately $15K in his quad; he rides on a National level with Creech & Farr, I'm sure you know the others. Oil analysis is something he uses from time to time, not all the time, but anytime he has issues it's good to know what the cause is so it can be fixed. Mechanical problems can be detected via oil analysis. It's just another option for anyone that wants to see inside their engine without tearing it down. This thread was simply offered as an option, it's probably not going to make or break anyone.

[ridefastrgetoff]

We have indeed tested Amsoil, but we test oils of all kinds. We also test hydraulic oils, gear oils, transmission fluids; engine oils just happen to be the primary type of fluid. We test petroleum / synthetic oils and continue to recommend others do the same to keep the big companies honest on what they are putting in under their labels; read above about Castrol Syntec and how they got caught cheating the customer. Their decision was made based on increasing their profits by $ 2 / qt. They were living off the name they had made from their "Full Synthetic" label and they changed it without notifying anyone.

[knighttime]

oils have tested the best? :confused:

[ridefastrgetoff]

What oils have tested the best ?

Motor Oils: Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic 0w-30 .607"
Quaker State 4X4(Syn. Blend)10W-30 .595"
Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic 5w-30 .589"
Castrol Syntec .576"
Havoline Formula 3 .713"
Royal Purple Synthetic 5w-30 .577"
Pennzoil Synthetic 5w-30 .540"
Amsoil Synthetic 0w-30 .373"

The above oils were tested using ( ASTM D4172 ) Testing for wear scar on bearings; all test are performed with new oil. The smaller the wear scar, the better the protection.

The test results for Klotz, PJ1, Maxima Super M & Amsoil four-stroke oils are pending a second round of testing; we want to compare oils today with samples taken on 3-6-2001. Will let you know the results when we get them.Mobil 1 Try-Synthetic 0w-30 Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic 5w-30 Royal Purple Synthetic 5w-30 Quaker State 4X4(Syn. Blend)10w-30 .607" .589" .595" .577" Amsoil Synthetic 0w-30 .373"

[Nausty]

wouldn't it matter on how hard and how long of periods are are riding and between oil changes though?

[yamaha1470]

arent those oils really light? 0w30 and 5w30? Did you ever test Mobil1 SuperSynth 15w50? I would like to know how that is.

[ridefastrgetoff]

Sorry to leave you all hanging, had to help out some friends. Yes, Nausty, length of time and the type of riding is definitely a factor; you're going to produce more heat when you're all out. Surprisingly enough, two-strokes on the flip-side produce more heat when they are being dogged; that is if the jetting is correct. Oil burns much hotter than fuel; burning is the key here because fuel explodes and there's no lingering effects from that, but the oil produces much more B.T.U.'s because of the long-lasting heat a fire produces. Got side-tracked there a bit. Regarding the Mobil 15W-50, I intentionally left that oil out because of it's heavier viscosity, to be tested equally against other oils ( apples to apples ) it must be tested under more strict guidelines: we still used ASTM D4172 but the pressure placed on the bearings, was 20kg more; the heavier the fluid, the more film strength it should exhibit, but not always the case.

Mobil Tri-Synthetic 15w-50 .922
Quaker State (Syn. Blend )20w-50 .790
Castrol Syntec 15w-50 .757
Valvoline Synthetic 20w-50 .741
Havoline Formula 3 .713
Amsoil Series 2000 20w-50 .440

The only test that I've done and it wasn't controlled at all, was in a 600cc Honda Engine, the driver was using Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic 15w-50; first of all, that's way too heavy of an oil for his application ( Micro Sprint Cars ), it causes the engine to work very hard, causes loss of H.P. and causes elevated temps. The first race out when testing a 5w-30 Synthetic Oil, he dropped 5 degrees ( 30 laps on a 1/6th mile track @ full throttle of 14,000 rpms ); he was used to runnning the Mobil 1 15w-50 for 3 weekends of racing (sometimes Friday / Saturday nights ) and now he runs 5 weekends on the 5w-30 with very little drop in film strength, his viscosity has thickened somewhat but it is negligible and his temps are remaining 5 degrees cooler for the entire time. I might also add, this is an Alcohol application; these engines are very tight, as I'm sure you guys know and virtually no alcohol is found in the oil.

NOTE: I should correct and clarify what the dimensions actually mean. The dimensions are in millimeters, not in inches; I posted above these to be in inches and that is incorrect.

[ridefastrgetoff]

I know this is not written towards quads, but you can see how improvements and longevity is built in to equipmrnt with Synthetics and with the analysis of the oils you're using:

http://www.lube-tips.com/focus/articles/art_04.htm

The article is written by a local company; they specialize in analyzing lubricants.

[knighttime]

do I go about getting the oil in my quad analyzed? Do I just send some to your company? :confused:

[ridefastrgetoff]

Let me know how many kits you want, they're $14 ea. and I will ship them to you. Email me for payment options. Let me know where you are located, it could be that a different lab would be more convenient for you. I would advise not taking a sample unless you have an actual sample bottle; contaminating your sample is pretty easy to do. If you would like to send a sample to me that's fine; make sure the bottle is sealed. Thanks.