Question about Mobil 1 & Friction Modifier

[E400X]

I have done alot of research on here about which oil to use and auto vs motorcycle, so I can change it in my 400 this weekend. After reading tons of posts, especially Gabe's, I decided to buy Mobil 1 15w50 which is readily avaliable and pretty cheap for such a quailty oil. I am just confused on one thing and need some explaination help. The Mobil 1 15w50 does not state "Energy Conserving" on the bottle which means that it has no friction modifiers in it, but since the 400 is a wet clutch setup and uses the same oil wouldn't you need the friction modifier in the oil to help the clutch grab better? If I am wrong can you explain why.

Also, for anyone that uses the automotive Mobil 1 15w50 too, how often do you change it and can it be used all season long. Thanks for all the help.

[RideRed400StYlE]

I dont know about the clutch thing, but running 15 50 is ok for the summer, I wouldnt reccomend running it in the winter tho, because it will get really thick in lower temps. and that can cause problems.. also It is good to change your oil pretty often.. depending on what type of riding you do. I like to change my oil every time it gets dark. thats just me. some people change it every month, or even every other month.. as long as you check it before you ride, and it is at the right level, and its a tan, or brown - dark brown you should be fine. I wouldnt run it if it is like pure black, that can cause some problems in the long run.


Just my .02

[E400X]

Thanks for the reply. I think the Mobil 1 15w50 pumpability is rated at -38F which is pretty cold and since it is synthetic it won't gum up as much as a conventional will, so I would think it might be able to be used all season in colder climates, I just wanted to hear others that have already used it in the winter.

[Pappy]

i use that very oil with NO friction modifyer. i noticed a decrease in operating temperature also. i still change my oil every 8 to 10 hours. i think it will be a good oil for colder climates...but i aint ridin when its that cold!!brrrrrr!!:D

[12gofast]

Do not use automotive oils in a motorcycle....I repeat do NOT use automotive oils in a motorcycle.

There is a reason that companies make motorcycle specific oil and it is not just to make money....clutch heat and friction is something that automotive oils are not intended to see. That is why motorcycle specific oils are created with friction modifiers....to work with the clutch. Once the synthetic based polymers impregnate your clutch you are going to get slipage and burn your clutch up twice as fast.
Go with Honda GN4 or HP4 if you want a synthetic...I have used the GN4 in my 400ex since new in 2000 and run it extremely hard nearly everyday including racing in GNCC and district harescrambles and have not had a problem yet with the motor and still running the stock clutch.

Yamalube and Spectro are great too!

[Taco]

how come noone has ever reported this clutch slippage here? Alot of us use the mobil 1 15w50 and have had NO reports of slippage ever.

[yamaha1470]

I use 15w50. I change it abt every 10 hours

[beyer05]

AMSOIL makes a synthetic oil without the friction modifiers specifically designed for mtorcycles with wet clutches. They have a 10W40 and a 20W50.

[E400X]

Thanks for all the replys. After all the posts on here about Mobil 1 15w50, I have not heard 1 person complain about clutch slippage. Thats why I went with it. I just need an explaination on why a wet clutch setup does not need friction modifier. Can anyone explain the wet clutch set to me and why you want an oil without friction modifier in it. Thanks

[beyer05]

Friction modifiers = reduced friction. This is OK for pistons, cranks, bearings, and so forth, BUT... they are TOO slick for a wet clutch application and may cause slippage. You NEED a little friction on you clutches! This is why you do not want friction modifiers in your oil. For more info: http://www.amsoil.com/products/amf.htm

[PsychoDave]

I USE MOBIL 15-50 AND I NEVER HAD A PROBLEM AND THE QUAD IS DEF. COOLER

[JhallettEX]

Can you pick this oil up at any shopko, kmart, walmart, or whatever. I am thinkin about changin oil b/c the Honda synthetic is juts gettin to expensive with how often I need to change the oil. Also if you have a picture of the oil bottle it would be good (easier to find at the store)

[yamaha1470]

Originally posted by JhallettEX
Can you pick this oil up at any shopko, kmart, walmart, or whatever. I am thinkin about changin oil b/c the Honda synthetic is juts gettin to expensive with how often I need to change the oil. Also if you have a picture of the oil bottle it would be good (easier to find at the store)

I get my mobil1 15w50 from autozone. Mobil 1 is in the process of changing all the bottles so you may see 2 different bottles. One says supersynth (thats the new bottle) and the old one says tri-synthetic formula. They are both the same oil. I cant post the pic cuz it isnt a jpeg or whatever but if u go on the mobil1 site u can look at it there.

www.mobil1.com

[Mxbubs]

Originally posted by 12gofast
Do not use automotive oils in a motorcycle....I repeat do NOT use automotive oils in a motorcycle.

There is a reason that companies make motorcycle specific oil and it is not just to make money....clutch heat and friction is something that automotive oils are not intended to see. That is why motorcycle specific oils are created with friction modifiers....to work with the clutch. Once the synthetic based polymers impregnate your clutch you are going to get slipage and burn your clutch up twice as fast.
Go with Honda GN4 or HP4 if you want a synthetic...I have used the GN4 in my 400ex since new in 2000 and run it extremely hard nearly everyday including racing in GNCC and district harescrambles and have not had a problem yet with the motor and still running the stock clutch.

Yamalube and Spectro are great too!

Go fast is EXACTLY correct. Some synthetics have polymers that will BURN your clutch up, and MOBIL 1 is one of them. I had my entire clutch system shatter like glass using mobil 1. The fragments cause my motor to jump time and destroy my head. I now use Royal Purple, and am extremely happy with it. DONT USE MOBIL 1.

[E400X]

Friction modifiers = reduced friction

I always thought that Friction Modifier was to help provide more friction, not reduce it.


Some synthetics have polymers that will BURN your clutch up, and MOBIL 1 is one of them. I had my entire clutch system shatter like glass using mobil 1. The fragments cause my motor to jump time and destroy my head. I now use Royal Purple, and am extremely happy with it. DONT USE MOBIL 1.

Then how is there so many people on this site that use Mobil 1 and not had and problems or complains about it. Were you using the 15w50 when your head got destroyed.

[beyer05]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by E400X
[B]

I always thought that Friction Modifier was to help provide more friction, not reduce it.



That is the way it sounds, but friction modifiers are additives added to most oils to reduce friction, which is a good thing UNLESS you have a wet clutch.
I was told that the 'Honda dealership' here had a sign on the counter from Mobile saying that their oil was not for motorcycle use. Now I do not know about this new stuff that is not "energy conserving", it may be OK.

[E400X]

That is the way it sounds, but friction modifiers are additives added to most oils to reduce friction
I know with Limited Slip Differencial Rears that you are suppose to add a bottle of friction modifier to help the clutch plates in the differencial grab better which would indicate that friction modifier improves friction. thats why I thought it would be the same concept with the wet clutch setup on the 400s. I am real confused now.

[12gofast]

I AM TRYING TO SAVE YOU GUYS SOME MONEY.....BECAUSE YOU ARE GOING TO SCREW YOUR MOTORS UP USING THAT MOBIL1.....KEEP USING IT THEN WHEN IT BREAKS TAKE TO YOUR HONDA SHOP AND ASK THEM TO WARRANTY IT!!!YEAH RIGHT!!!

Heres some FACTS for you:

ARE AUTOMOTIVE OILS DIFFERENT FROM MOTORCYCLE-SPECIFIC OILS?

Yes, there is a difference between automobile engines and motorcycle engine requirements. Motorcycles, particularly Japanese designed models, use their engine oils in the transmissions and clutch systems. These applications place unique stress on motorcycle lubricants. The maximum engine output per liter for motorcycles is 1.5 to 1.8 times that of automobile engines. Similarly, the revolutions at maximum output are 1.3 to 2 times that of automobiles. Further, motorcycle engines are small and light weight. This results in a small thermal capacity in motorcycle engines which causes engine oils to reach temperatures as high as 320° F. The above differences logically lead to the point that a motorcycle-specific engine lubricant can be formulated to address the unique requirements of the motorcycle engine. The major modifications would be in using a more shear stable viscosity index improver (VI) which provides viscosity retention when run through the motorcycle transmission gears. Automobile oils using less shear stable VI components which will fall out of grade or suffer viscosity loss rapidly in motorcycle applications.

Further, due to the high heat and the RPMs motorcycles encounter, ZDDP and phosphorous are needed to prevent cam wear and oil oxidation. Lastly, care must be taken in the choice of friction modifiers in motorcycle oils to prevent clutch slippage. Current auto oils of API SJ quality contain a large amount of friction modifiers for increased fuel economy as well as limits on zinc and phosphorous content thus limiting their use as motorcycle lubricants. They are fine for auto engine use but inappropriate for use in motorcycle engines.

The Japanese manufacturers address these topics in SAE paper number 961217 entitled, "Study on 4-Stroke Engine Oils For Motorcycles: Engine Characteristics and New Specification Oils" dated May, 1996; available from the SAE, 400 Commonwealth Drive, Warrendale, PA 15096-0007. Telephone: (412) 776-4841; Fax: (412) 776-5760.

SHOULD I USE SPECIAL ADDITIVES IN MY OIL?

If you purchase a premium motorcycle lubricant the use of other fortifiers is not necessary. Everything your motorcycle engine needs is already in your premium quality motorcycle engine oil. Many of the additives available today in automotive oils contain friction modifiers such as molybdenum or Teflon (PTFE) which can adversely affect clutch operation in your motorcycle.


READ THAT LAST LINE AGAIN!!!!!!

[Leo]

Originally posted by Mxbubs


Go fast is EXACTLY correct. Some synthetics have polymers that will BURN your clutch up, and MOBIL 1 is one of them. I had my entire clutch system shatter like glass using mobil 1. The fragments cause my motor to jump time and destroy my head. I now use Royal Purple, and am extremely happy with it. DONT USE MOBIL 1.

Mobil 1 caused your clutch to grenade... Um... Ok...

How exactly did you decide that a certain type of oil can cause a clutch to explode? Better keep digging until you find the true root cause of your clutch failure..

I've been using it for over a year, everything from climbing tailings piles in 90+ temps, to racing on the ice in 0 temps.. Zip / Zero / Nada problems..

Just took my motor down for some mild modifications, the cylinder was as perfect as the day it rolled off the line (0 taper) the camshaft and rockers were also mint w/ zero wear..

If you want to shell out the big $$ for something with a feel good label on it, that's your right as an american :)

Leo

[Pappy]

exactly leo....ive been using mobil 1 15w50 and love it. i was very happy with the decrease in operating temperature and have expierenced no clutch slippage. i work in the industry and it is amazing how many products are cross labeled!

p.s. thanks for the stickers

[SubnetZero]

I agree with Leo, you may want to find the real cause.

Comments from an answer on the Ask Mickey Dunlap 3/3/2002 :


My only real experience of ice racing was in 1984 when I rode for Team Honda at Lake George and I found out real quick that you do not run straight 40 weight oil. We cold seized the motor in about 10-15 minutes because the wind chill factor would cool the front of the cylinder and the engine cases enough to make sludge out of the heavy oil. A multi-grade oil, even a synthetic such as 15/50 Mobile 1, would be advised for high rpm, high speed running. That's about the best advice I can give you except for stay on the trails - your motor will last longer!

As stated earlier, many hardcore racers to casual ridders are running Mobil1 without a problem. I believe Gabe mentioned a couple months ago he was impressed how long his stock clutch lasted under racing abuse (think he mentioned couple years)
You may also want to look back at some old threads, as there was more info about Oil than you would ever want to know.

looking at advice from pro builders and racers, I would think we are fine with running Mobil 1 heh.

[JhallettEX]

What is the cost of Mobil 1 a quart?

[Razorback]

~ $4

[yamaha1470]

6.99 AT AUTOZONE ON LONG ISLAND

[96fast]

CAN I GET MOBIL1 15W50 @ WALMART AND IS IT THE REDCAP STUFF THAT EVERYONE IS TALKING ABOUT? THANKS A LOT

[miken]

All you need is an oil that is JASO MA approved. Thats the Japanese approval for use in wet clutches. Mobil already makes a JASO MA approved oil...here: http://www.mobil1.com/motorcycle/index.jsp Click on the bottom link and read. It clearly states that red cap is designed for liquid cooled passenger cars.

I am currently not using it because I am using Mobil 1 red cap. It is not "energy conserving" and does not have the friction modifiers that are bad for the clutch.....but, next oil change I will be looking for the JASO MA approval, and switching.
Mike -

[96fast]

THANKS A LOT MIKE

[NacsMXer]

Yo, to clear the confusion about Mobil 1 blowin up clutches and what not, I have to say that you probably used the WRONG Mobil 1. Yes it IS an automotive oil but all Mobil 1 viscosities are not the same oil. As far as I know the 15w50 Mobil 1 with the Red cap is the only one that does not contain the friction modifiers, which is why it is ok to use on your quad. However, I do know that I will never touch any other Mobil 1 with the blue or green caps because I know that they will make a wet clutch slip indefinitely. The previous quote that motorcycle oils were intended for motorcycles only and automotive oils for autos only does not always hold true. In this case, you have to make sure you know what's in your oil before you go run it. If it's a motorcycle synthetic oil, go ahead and run it for the conditions you'll be in, but if you have automotive oil, look out for those friction modifiers.

[wilkin250r]

You have to watch out for friction modifiers, yes. But not all Automotive oil is going to kill your engine. Look in your owners manual, it calls for a specific weight oil, not a specific brand or a "motorcycle" oil.

[user101]

i use mobil 1 15w 50 and ive had no problems in the past year with it.

ive heard that its not ok to use synthetic oils during engine break in because they wont break down and allow the rings and seals to seat properly..is there any truth to this???

[DamageInc]

First of all, Mobil1 does make a motorcycle-specific oil. It has a black cap. I have a few quarts of MX4T 10W40 sitting on my shelf that I'm going to run on the ice this winter. http://www.mobil1.com/motorcycle/index.jsp You won't find it at Farm&Fleet though, you will most likely have to go to a bike dealer or buy it online.

But I honestly don't think that "friction modifiers" are going to hurt your clutch plates as much as a lot of people think. That's just a generic term for additives such as moybdenum, graphite, teflon, etc. I have ran moly based oils in wet clutch cycles and ATV's for over twenty years, and never had a problem with clutch slippage. And believe me, it wasn't because I went easy on them or didn't ride much, lol. The theory behind it is that the particles of moly (or whatever additive) will plug up the pores in your friction plates, and then slip. I haven't experienced that problem, but I used moly oils, not teflon or graphite. Maybe I'm just lucky, I dunno.

[400exdad]

Old threads do come back.. :) I too have used Mobil 1 for some time now without problems. Forever, I did not believe in the use of synthetics and used regular oil. After I saw how much cooler the 400 ran with the syn., I have switched to it in almost everything I own.

[Stunz]

This is wicked OLD. I sold my 400EX 2-1/2 years ago and this forum brings back a lot of fond memories.

Originally posted by 400exdad
After I saw how much cooler the 400 ran with the syn., I have switched to it in almost everything I own. me too..i did the same thing

[Destructo]

Bringin back an old thread here, but has anyone use Redline oil? It says on the bottle it is for motorcycles as well, I was thinking about trying to 10w-40 in my 400ex because I think 15w-50 is too heavy especially for cold weather. I run 0w-40 in my 1.8T for the turbo.

Mobil1 says advance auto and wal-mart carry their motorcycle oils so i'm gonna go see, I need to change mine, and how much does the whole bike hold?

Edit, found the capacity with a little more searching ;) the search button is your friend :p

[miken]

Redline is excellent oil. It's comparable to Silkolene, also excellent. To my knowledge it does not contain friction modifiers or moly that is not good for the clutch. FYI, Mobil also make a motorcycle specific oil which is MA rated, in case you are worried about red cap? Although, red cap is widely recommended on this site.
Mike -

[Destructo]

I bought some Redline 10w-40 for my 400ex today and changed the oil, but at 8 bucks a quart it was mighty expensive. Hopefully its worth it. I just went by my local advance auto and besides car oils it was the only that specifically said it was formulated for wet clutch motorcycles.

If I can find out where to buy the mobil1 motorcycle oil I would be interested to see how much it costs. I have used other Redline products and their great, I would expect the same from their oil. I tend to be hard on my motors, so I can use all the protection I can get for my motors.

[MIKE400EX]

Destructo,
The Mobil 1 MC labeled oil is about $8/qt., rougly twice what "red cap" is. Tried the MC oil out of shear curiosity and couldn't see a difference - except in the wallet. The Belray 5-60 syn. superbike oil also works very well but is $10 or so a qt.

[Destructo]

maybe when summer rolls around next year i'll put the Mobil 1 15w-50 in mine, I was just a little afraid that if i'm out riding in near freezing weather it would get too thick so I wanted to get 10w-40 and the only thing offered that was ok for wet clutch systems was the RedLine, so thats what I got, its supposed to be very good though, so I might just keep running it, I don't mind paying out my butt for oil long as it does its job well.

[04EXdude]

Acually, Mobil 1 MX4T does have a 10w40 and you can find it at Autozone for $8 a quart. However, I hope you have better luck than I did using it. MX4T is a full synthetic and it made my clutch slip.

[JD400exrider]

Originally posted by 04EXdude
Acually, Mobil 1 MX4T does have a 10w40 and you can find it at Autozone for $8 a quart. However, I hope you have better luck than I did using it. MX4T is a full synthetic and it made my clutch slip.

:confused: I have been using it for the last three oil changes. No problems. A friend has been using for a couple years No problems.

[torqen2k1]

The majority of people on this site say to use Mobil 1 "Red Cap" in their 400EXs so now I am going to. Plus my 426 has to run cooler, any little cooling always helps.

[zephead400ex]

Originally posted by torqen2k1
The majority of people on this site say to use Mobil 1 "Red Cap" in their 400EXs so now I am going to. Plus my 426 has to run cooler, any little cooling always helps.

Do it, Mobil 1 red cap.

[EPDP99]

The mobil 1 red cap I bout does say anti-wear technology. Is this the right stuff??

[MIKE400EX]

yes

[Destructo]

so far with the redline the hot side of the oil lines are cool enough to touch, and the cool side is luke warm, i'd say its working pretty well at keeping my motor cool, thats after riding around for a bit also, i'm sure if I rode hard it would be a little hot.

[miken]

Originally posted by 04EXdude
MX4T is a full synthetic and it made my clutch slip.
I'm not sure about the MX4T, but I'm almost positive the Mobil V-twin full synth 20/50 says MA rated on the bottle. If it has been MA rated it's not what's making your clutch slip.
Mike -

[04EXdude]

MX4T is MA rated and it was what was causing my clutch slippage. I have since went back to GN4 and have no more slippage. Don't know about you but to me thats good enough proof.