DASA and the Yoshimura Pipe Test

[wppracing]

Thanks to Gary for leaving me the Dasa pipe to test. Along with garys 550 we tested yesterday , I decided to do a test between the Yoshi pipe I have now and the DASA pipe.
The best Yoshi run was 49.41hp / 35.33tq
The best DASA run was 50.05hp / 35.15tq

The average between the best 5 runs was
Yoshi 48.89hp / 35.01tq
DASA 49.50hp / 35.47tq

Here are the graphs

[wppracing]

And the DASA runs

[370kingR]

Brian with his cherry 450R

[TURBO-530R]

WOW :eek2: Brian

50 hp from your 450 thats great !!!

Welcome to the 50's club



Well i guess i will be kicked out of thr 50's club now that i hit 60HP:D :D

[wppracing]

Thanks Gary.
I am glad I had on 2 thermals and 2 sweatshirts, it got cold fast
after you left.

[TURBO-530R]

Originally posted by wppracing
Thanks Gary.
I am glad I had on 2 thermals and 2 sweatshirts, it got cold fast
after you left. Gary???:confused: hehe

[wppracing]

For posting the picture :D

[TURBO-530R]

Originally posted by wppracing
Thanks Gary.
I am glad I had on 2 thermals and 2 sweatshirts, it got cold fast
after you left.

Oh sorry brian I thought you were cold when I left and took the heat.

LOL

[chad502ex]

Brian, The man with the 50hp engine.

Waaaaahhhhooooo!

[wppracing]

Jim,
It did get VERRRRRY cold when the heat was gone. Thank you for the heat and some gas for the generator . I gave Matt 5gal of cam2/93/and regular gas to use and it was gone.

I had another jacket to put on if needed.

Not bad for all drop in parts, I really like the torque output .

[wppracing]

Here is the DASA installed

[wppracing]

Here is a comparison of the 2 runs.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by wppracing
Here is a comparison of the 2 runs.

Interestingly enough, both Brian and Gary seem to have the same suck-out torque response mid-band of the rpm range (approx 6k rpm).

Notice the exponential tail on brians torque around 6k? This looks very similiar to 370kingR's torque response, just not as drastic....

I wonder if there is something undesirable going on with the resonance of the exhaust on both engines. I mean this exhaust was installed and dyno tested on two different queads (WPP Racing and 370kingR's) and got the same suck-out response around 6k rpm.

What ya'll think?

[370kingR]

I honestly think its hard to compare my runs to anything as not one of them truely represents all the power making it to the tires.

When i get it right, we can then make good quality comparisons. It is so obvious that the clutch or something slipped when the motor reached 35-36 ft lbs of torque which is not long after Matt starts his run. The whole powerband was a "dip"

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 370kingR
I honestly think its hard to compare my runs to anything as not one of them truely represents all the power making it to the tires.

When i get it right, we can then make good quality comparisons. It is so obvious that the clutch or something slipped when the motor reached 35-36 ft lbs of torque which is not long after Matt starts his run. The whole powerband was a "dip"

didn't i say saturday that it was either clutch or ignition because of the response of the torque curve? Glad that your on track again Gary

I love the way the Bad Habit and Mixxer came up with the linear response (RPM vs Speed) to verify non-linearity. WTG!

[wppracing]

It only has a dip /spike with the DASA pipe.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by wppracing
It only has a dip /spike with the DASA pipe.

That's what I was trying to point out was that both you and Gary's response has similiar "dip" to it when running the DASA

Maybe, you clutch was slipping too? ;)

just kidding,...

Seriously, some serious standing wave/reversion to cause this tq suck-out response in the low end. Those darn huge headers,... arg! again just kidding.

[logangsxr998]

WHAT JETTING WAS USED ON THESE PIPES?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by logangsxr998
WHAT JETTING WAS USED ON THESE PIPES?

The DASA required a jetting increase to 175 main, when the jetting required for Yoshi was 170.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by chad502ex
The DASA required a jetting increase to 175 main, when the jetting required for Yoshi was 170.

Was the 175 tried in the yoshi? Or do you mean that both pipes were jetted correctly with those exact jets?

[wppracing]

Originally posted by chad502ex
That's what I was trying to point out was that both you and Gary's response has similiar "dip" to it when running the DASA

Maybe, you clutch was slipping too? ;)

just kidding,...

Seriously, some serious standing wave/reversion to cause this tq suck-out response in the low end. Those darn huge headers,... arg! again just kidding.

The clutch looked fine, and the fluid looked new. Look how smooth the Yoshi curve is.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by wppracing
The clutch looked fine, and the fluid looked new. Look how smooth the Yoshi curve is.


It still looks like there is a SLIGHT dip at around 6500rpms does it not? Its not nearly as bad as the DASA one, but still looks like a dip to me.

[wppracing]

Yes there is a slight dip . Here is another run from 11/5/05 with my Yoshi. The DASA pipe design might be the reason for the more pronounced dip/spike.

[370kingR]

Did you guys look over the A/F to see what was doing in around that time?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
It still looks like there is a SLIGHT dip at around 6500rpms does it not? Its not nearly as bad as the DASA one, but still looks like a dip to me.

yes a dip in both but at a different rpm.

[OKTRX450R]

Mine takes a dip between 8.5 and 9...hmm, not sure why?

[shamisc]

Does this mean that the Yosh would be the best choice for my 450R with the mods listed, since I have to have a spark arrestor?

[chad502ex]

yes no big deal. all pipes have different resonances. I was only trying to enlighten that Gary and Brian ran the same exact pipe and there was similarities between the dip in the tq curve.

I think we all know that Gary has clutch issues to resolve.

hope this helps.

[slickta]

I can't beleive you are getting away with that small of a jet. We run a 220 main in ours. I know another guy with a DASA setup and he also runs a 220 main.

[Mobile Dyno]

Here is the Hp over A/F graph with a 175 main

[Mobile Dyno]

Here is a graph of Tq over A/F

[Mobile Dyno]

Here is speed with RPM over time

[Mobile Dyno]

From looking at the Hp with A/F you can see the spike that Brian was talking about. The A/F is dialed in on Brians bike and at 6K-7Krpm(where the dip is in the graph) there is no cause of that spike being from A/F. Remember this is a 175main. DASA's pipe is a great pipe for DASA's motors that need more exhaust flow. DASA has a Nice, Clean, and Huge pipe. Brians TRX has a mild port and flow not a DASA port and flow. Gary has a similar spike but his is from clutch issues.

[370kingR]

Yea honestly, i think the Yosh looked better on Brians bike. Id stick with that if it were me...

[slickta]

That dip is strange. I would be very curios to see what the dynamics are that would cause that.

[wppracing]

I am going to keep the Yoshi on.
Gary, I am sending you the pipe wednesday, thanks again for letting me try it.

[370kingR]

Originally posted by wppracing
I am going to keep the Yoshi on.
Gary, I am sending you the pipe wednesday, thanks again for letting me try it.

Thats cool Brian. That Yosh ran great on your bike. Remember what we said "leave it alone, its perfect"

I like the yosh too because its so light.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by slickta
That dip is strange. I would be very curios to see what the dynamics are that would cause that.

ding, ding, ding....

an a/f that wavy seems turbulant on the intake or exhaust side, and since the exhaust seems to be displaying a bit of squirreliness on two different setups i wonder abit more about the smooth response of the pipe

when a/f becomes rich or lean ya have to ask why is the a/f changing the direction going so quickly over rpm?

[cals400ex]

could you post the rossier graphs so we can see a comparison in the same thread? or did that have different motor mods when you tested that pipe?

[QuadJunkies]

I would like to see that ^^^ too...

Also, whats the DB level on both the Yoshi and the DASA??

[wppracing]

Rossier had different mods.
I did a sound test with the YOSHI but not the DASA.

YOSHI
DB Level at Idle 101
DB Level at 3500rpms 107-108
DB Level at 3750 108
TEC Quiet Core S/A Installed
DB Level at Idle 92
DB Level at 3500rpms 98-100
DB Levels at 3750rpms 100

If the Yoshi didnt work so good on my current set, I would put the DASA pipe on.

[chad502ex]

Again, on that wavy a/f response, I'd been thinking a bit more and since my day job consist of thinking in wavelengths, I was thinking a longitudinal wave front of an engine as standing waves within the exhaust.
So, while on the throne, where thinking is always good, I recalled in my head the a/f response of a Sparks exhaust being extremely flat across the entire range. Then, I remembered that the sparks exhaust is designed as a one piece header with no steps which most likely is the reasoning for it's smooth response. Because the Sparks has no steps, this most likely is reasoning for the smooth response of the setup. Also, I recalled the response of the reverse megaphone Sparks X6 on my 502ex having the same smooth linear a/f response too.

Sure, a stepped header is better at pulling more vaccuum to try to mimic the superior reverse megaphone design, but at a cost of a wavy a/f response which could coorelate to less or more power at a given rpm.

Anyway, I'm far from an exhaust designer, obvious, but I'd bet that if the steps in the DASA header were to be moved forward or backward along the header, then the torque suckout mid-band wouldn't be so dominant.

Keep the stepper, but change the resonance so peak torque at 6-8k rpm isn't going to be pulled out of the setup.

Any other input motor heads?

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by wppracing
Rossier had different mods.
I did a sound test with the YOSHI but not the DASA.

YOSHI
DB Level at Idle 101
DB Level at 3500rpms 107-108
DB Level at 3750 108
TEC Quiet Core S/A Installed
DB Level at Idle 92
DB Level at 3500rpms 98-100
DB Levels at 3750rpms 100

If the Yoshi didnt work so good on my current set, I would put the DASA pipe on.

Thank you for that info....

that REALLY bites that the DB is that high w/o quiet core due to DB regulations :( 101 is the Max we can have

So was there much of a difference in performance ??
In your opinion , which pipe do YOU think would have the louder DB??

[wppracing]

IMO the DASA might be slightly louder but after hearing so many runs they all start to blend in. I dont know how it would perform on my set up. I only used it on the dyno.

Who knows, there still might be a DASA pipe installed on my quad or maybe a Ron Woods pipe.:D

[29FTEX]

Originally posted by chad502ex
I recalled in my head the a/f response of a Sparks exhaust being extremely flat across the entire range. Then, I remembered that the sparks exhaust is designed as a one piece header with no steps which most likely is the reasoning for it's smooth response. Because the Sparks has no steps, this most likely is reasoning for the smooth response of the setup. Also, I recalled the response of the reverse megaphone Sparks X6 on my 502ex having the same smooth linear a/f response too.



Found an old pic of a Sparks 450R exhaust. Is the increase in size considered a step or more of a megaphone design?

When measured, it was "claimed" to have an increase in size at the header near the exhaust port, the flare at the end of the header, and another increase in size in the slip on area.

There may not be as may steps or in the same manner as the DASA, but they are increases in size along the entire exhaust, yes?

I'm no exhaust designer either, so seeing this, how does that add to or take away from your theory?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/mikes450r/MultimedMA10690359-0001.jpg

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 29FTEX
Found an old pic of a Sparks 450R exhaust. Is the increase in size considered a step or more of a megaphone design?

When measured, it was "claimed" to have an increase in size at the header near the exhaust port, the flare at the end of the header, and another increase in size in the slip on area.

There may not be as may steps or in the same manner as the DASA, but they are increases in size along the entire exhaust, yes?

I'm no exhaust designer either, so seeing this, how does that add to or take away from your theory?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/mikes450r/MultimedMA10690359-0001.jpg

Hey Steve- how ya been?

Last Saturday, TURBO-530R dyno'd the exact CS system you pictured and I remember his a/f using this system was almost flat hovering 13a/f over the entire range. Before I sold my ol' CS for RE, I also ran this system and have a few a/f tests in my digital archive that supports the smooth a/f response of the CS.


Is the increase in size considered a step or more of a megaphone design?
I understand the "flare" you refer to on the CS, but I'm thinking an actual step would be when the header is welded with bigger diameter and not just "flared" with a flare tool for the purpose to slip over smaller diameter pipes.

reverse megaphone design to me (again i should clarify that I do not design pipes) is more like the old CS X-6 system where the front part of the canister slipped onto the end of the header pipe, similiar to the shape of the front part of the Pulse Chargers canister. Looks like a cone. A reverse megaphone to me is no where similiar to the "flared" characterisitics of the CS system. I consider the CS system as "straight-thru", which is why the CS system develops more low end tq compared to the characteristics of a megaphone top end system.

Maybe, I'll get a chance to pull up some old a/f curves on my old CS and RE systems to illustrate.

[chad502ex]

The old CS X-6 that fit the 400ex had a reverse mega canister design.

The "new" pictured CS system for the 450R does not include the mega canister design or stepped header either mainly because Sparks needed to increase the stock bottom end torque of the R.

On the CS X-6 mega style, top end was needed on the EX

[29FTEX]

Curiosity killed the cat! I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind the "dips" with exhaust development theories.

The head pipe ID should be the same dimension or slightly bigger than the exhaust port OD?

An abruptly stepped (welded) header will pull more vacuum than a flared "step"?

Sound resonance reflection due to exhaust size/design?

"Cooler" exhaust gasses because of exhaust size and ability to exit (sound reverberation aiding)? Hotter gasses flow faster. Thickness of material used?

The density of the exhaust gasses being moved (i.e. truly rich or lean)?

[chad502ex]

megaphone is best for pull, stepped better than flared, tapered better than stepped.

Notice the tapered (better than stepped), notice the mega (better than tapered). no stepper here gents!


all smooth transition for easy tuning... :D

completely linear ahhhhh

[joe benner]

I want someone to explain why taper is better than stepping. any tapered down pipe I have tried there is a spike in peak power and a drop in overrev. Jetting is also more important to be spot on.

[brif]

This away from where this topic is headed, but does the DASA pipe have a spark arrestor? Does DASA offer any kind of quiet core????

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by joe benner
I want someone to explain why taper is better than stepping. any tapered down pipe I have tried there is a spike in peak power and a drop in overrev. Jetting is also more important to be spot on.

spike? what you mean by spike?


it would be adventagous if the next developed system for quads could be a "one-into-two electronic exhaust system" like factory sport street bikes run.

It seems it would be extremely simplistic to build:
RPM transducer on ignition
electronic solenoid for exhaust flapper-valve
flapper-valve to open one-into-two header
electronic module to pickup rpm and open header flap accordingly

EX flapper valve as close to exhaust port toward end of bend, then two pipes to canister for increase crossed-section flow for top end. The "flapper-valve" could be electronically controlled to close for torque and one pipe for low end grunt, then gradually open up for dual pipe flow for top end flow (hp). the dual pipes could even be smaller in diameter than typical because the cross sectional of both when WOT would be superior to even the largest single.

I believe HONDA was one of the first manufactures to manufacture this "four-into-two" electronically controlled header on their sport street bike applications... Won't be long before that technology is pulled into the ATV market.

This could even be mapped into CDI's and tested on a loaded dyno (hint Matt). If I'm not mistaken Dynatek ignitions even have rpm output and rpm trigger output for different rpm that could trigger when events occured within the rpm range.

[joe benner]

very interesting

I believe all aftermarket sport bike exhaust dump the flapper valve in the exhaust including my erion full system on my 929RR. Graves, Micron, Yoshi, muzzy all dump the flapper valve in the exhaust. The big question does the M1 yamaha have a flapper valve system? Money is not an issue and if it would benefit greatly, than it would have it.

As far as taper VS step I have seen more consistant AF readings and an smoother over all power delivery. Reverse megaphones are loader than stepped canister slyle pipes I would gladly send a YFZ 450 pipe to compare to the all mighty dyno king ron woods pipe. The ron woods pipe makes .5hp more than mine from 8500 to the rev limiter but 1-1.5 less from 2500rpm- 8000rpm than mine. I guess its all up to the rider were he wants his power. What about the overall weight of a exhaust system. If one system is 6lbs. less than the other does that make up the .5hp differance in a drag race?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by joe benner
very interesting

I believe all aftermarket sport bike exhaust dump the flapper valve in the exhaust including my erion full system on my 929RR. Graves, Micron, Yoshi, muzzy all dump the flapper valve in the exhaust. The big question does the M1 yamaha have a flapper valve system? Money is not an issue and if it would benefit greatly, than it would have it.

As far as taper VS step I have seen more consistant AF readings and an smoother over all power delivery. Reverse megaphones are loader than stepped canister slyle pipes I would gladly send a YFZ 450 pipe to compare to the all mighty dyno king ron woods pipe. The ron woods pipe makes .5hp more than mine from 8500 to the rev limiter but 1-1.5 less from 2500rpm- 8000rpm than mine. I guess its all up to the rider were he wants his power. What about the overall weight of a exhaust system. If one system is 6lbs. less than the other does that make up the .5hp differance in a drag race?

thanks for the input on the flapper ex system being inferior.

yes reverse mega are louder. every one i've tested or ran performed awesome.

I would be happy to take you up on the test of the Ron Woods pipe when WPP Racing gets one to test on the trx. Send it down and the dyno testers will supply the information to the members.

we could also weigh, measure spl, and compare back to back pulls against yours.

[joe benner]

Sounds like a plan.


Is there any chance of testing on a YFZ 450 with a Woods VS RE ?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by joe benner
Sounds like a plan.


Is there any chance of testing on a YFZ 450 with a Woods VS RE ?

almost for sure. Mobile Dyno and myself along with WPP Racing could arrange a test on a yfz.

PM me or Mobile Dyno or WPP Racing and let us know when you can get a sample to us to compare against the RW. WPP Racing would have to get a RW pipe, you send your pipe, Mobile Dyno and I test with spot on A/F, and don't worry about finding a yami- i'm sure that would be no problem....

;)

[Mobile Dyno]

Lets Do It!!!!:devil:

[wppracing]

When I get my pipe, I will test the Yoshimura(my current pipe) and then the Ron Wood pipe on my quad . Which ever pipe works the best , it stays and the other will be sold. This is the last time I am doing any pipe tests with my quad(to much wear )
If the RW has a stronger hp/tq curve and out performs the Yoshi,Dasa, Then it will stay. But so far the DASA has a slightly stronger curve and more overrev power than the Yoshi.


If a YFZ wants tested great, someone will have to buy or send a RW pipe to be tested.

[chad502ex]

Looks like joe benner ;) said yes to sending down his trx pipe to test against the ron woods pipe. I guess all I need now is a Ron Woods volunteer and I'll test it on my new 450R I'm building this month,.....

no sense in testing these two on a tired setup LOL!

[wppracing]

Its tired but still running:blah:

[chad502ex]

really?:rolleyes:

[OKTRX450R]

Send me the Benner pipe and I will test it...I have the 450R and the Ron Wood pipe and a dyno 30 minutes from my house!!!

I plan on testing some intake setups in the next 2 weeks...the DD and the RW intake...

You pay to ship it to me and I will pay to ship it back...

[chad502ex]

WTG OK, joe benner is extremely confident fella with his pipe going up against the Ron Woods and since you are willing to test them both let us know when you get some data- thanks!

:macho

[OKTRX450R]

How would I get Joe's pipe?
Do you have it?
Do I need to contact him?

The dyno is SandTrax in Tulsa, Oklahoma (Lonnie) and it is a Dynojet machine.

Does anyone in the area need to be a witness? Not trying to start any poop just want to avoid it!

I can post whatever you need me to...Lonnie gives you all your run files on a cd after the dyno session and he uses an A/F meter.

I am happy to help...WPP, Mobile Dyno, KGB, and many others have done so much of this already and it really has helped me save money on my build because of being able to compare independently tested products...

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by OKTRX450R
How would I get Joe's pipe?
Do you have it?
Do I need to contact him?

The dyno is SandTrax in Tulsa, Oklahoma (Lonnie) and it is a Dynojet machine.

Does anyone in the area need to be a witness? Not trying to start any poop just want to avoid it!

I can post whatever you need me to...Lonnie gives you all your run files on a cd after the dyno session and he uses an A/F meter.

I am happy to help...WPP, Mobile Dyno, KGB, and many others have done so much of this already and it really has helped me save money on my build because of being able to compare independently tested products...

OK, sounds good to me, but of coarse i think it would be up to joe benner to send ya a pipe to test. If he wants to he will PM you i'm sure.

And thanks for your help!.