How does evolution work???

[tdsongster]

Every article I read about evolution never talks about how it works or why it is true, it just keeps saying that it is fact and religion is wrong.

Aside from this, I do have a question that no one has ever been able to answer about evolution. Let me begin with an example. If you work with your hands alot, they will develop caluses (not sure of spelling). Is this evolving or adapting?

This example would make sense that evolution is taking place. Maybe a better example would be climate change. If the temperature drops, animals develop thicker coats of fur. Makes sense, however, this does not explain things like flight. When I ask this question I usually get an answer that this took many generations and hundreds to thousands of year to take place. That is all fine and good, but what drove it. Did one generation decide to keep jumping in the air and flapping its arms/legs trying to fly and pass that on to the following generations?

What was the drivig force to develop flight over the many many generations. Nothing this sophisticated happens for no reason.

I have been told that nature will try many different things. This does not make sense to me either since, who is this nature you are talking about and if it is trying many different things then the pre-flight species would also be trying things other then flight (gills for instance).

Anyways, this post is NOT about arguments/flames in anyway. I would really like someone to tell me how evolution works. To say something as complex as flight is just random chance and yet it takes many complex things to happen in series over a long time (and not randomly trying other evolutionary paths) is not a factual answer.

Did I explain my question clear enough?
Does anyone know how this works, if not how can we call it fact?

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by tdsongster
Does anyone know how this works, if not how can we call it fact?

It's not a matter of knowing how it works to call it fact. It's a matter of seeing evidence of it, THAT is how we call it fact.

For example, consider blowholes for whales and dolphins. They have found skulls that have a long range of time. The skulls are very similar, so they know they are from the same species. In the oldest skulls, the nostrils are near the front of the snout. A skull from the same species thousands of years later (carbon dating), they find the nostrils further back, actually near the eyes. Yet another skull, they find one with the nostrils up on the forehead. A skull from millions of years later, same basic species, they find the nostrils at the top of the head, where we see the modern day blowhole.

It's not necessary to know WHY it happens to call it a fact. Regardless if we understand it or not, we know that it HAS happened.

[tdsongster]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
It's not a matter of knowing how it works to call it fact. It's a matter of seeing evidence of it, THAT is how we call it fact.

For example, consider blowholes for whales and dolphins. They have found skulls that have a long range of time. The skulls are very similar, so they know they are from the same species. In the oldest skulls, the nostrils are near the front of the snout. A skull from the same species thousands of years later (carbon dating), they find the nostrils further back, actually near the eyes. Yet another skull, they find one with the nostrils up on the forehead. A skull from millions of years later, same basic species, they find the nostrils at the top of the head, where we see the modern day blowhole.

It's not necessary to know WHY it happens to call it a fact. Regardless if we understand it or not, we know that it HAS happened.

Yeah but blowholes being in different places is a far cry from one species involving into another. My point is that it used to be FACT that the sun revolved around the earth. 2000 years later we laugh at that, but 2000 years from now they will laugh at what we call fact today. That is why I think you need to understand, especially something as complex as Evolution, before you start saying it is fact.

Can anyone answer how flight came to be other then random chance. That is simple not sufficient. You can give that answer about anything.

[Ralph]

Also, they say people in the asias' eyes are the way they are because over there the people that lived there for so many generations lived in harsh sandstorms and because they had a big problem wit hsand in their eyes of the years their eyes started getting squinted because it helped keep the sand out of their eyes but they still retained full vision.

i dunno how it works but there is many things about the body we dont understand...

[Ralph]

Originally posted by tdsongster
Yeah but blowholes being in different places is a far cry from one species involving into another. My point is that it used to be FACT that the sun revolved around the earth. 2000 years later we laugh at that, but 2000 years from now they will laugh at what we call fact today. That is why I think you need to understand, especially something as complex as Evolution, before you start saying it is fact.

Can anyone answer how flight came to be other then random chance. That is simple not sufficient. You can give that answer about anything.

they might also laugh at religion. "I cant believe they believed in magic!"

[tdsongster]

Originally posted by Ralph
they might also laugh at religion. "I cant believe they believed in magic!"


OFF SUBJECT: Are you the photoshop guru guy?

[I-7]

Im reposting this because I don't think you read it.



Its a long process.. its not like it will happen in a few generations, it takes a very long time and I guess we are always adapting. It starts when only a few people have the certain advanced trait and it just gets spread. For example, a certain bird species is living on an island and their beaks are very small... but the seeds on that island that they need to eat are very big. Then along the line you have a bird that is born and its beak is considerably bigger. (just like sometimes babys are born with different unique qualities)

Obviously, the bird with the bigger beak will be able to eat the seeds easier and will survive better then the birds with the smaller beaks (natural selection). So the bird with the larger beak starts to take over and when it reproduces its birds also have big beaks so they also do much better then the birds with the smaller beaks so it spreads.

Its not like somehow scientifically along the lines its just like hmm we need a longer beak so lets give this bird a longer beak. It comes with varation among the offspring so some species will do better then others and in the end survive and spread that trait till all the bird population has large beaks.




Same with a fox living in the winter. One fox is born with a thicker coat and it survives over the fox with the thinner coat so that gene spreads until we classify it as an evolution.







So i'll say it again... somewhere along the lines there will be a certain gene sequence which causes the offspring to have a certain quality which makes living, eating, ect. a lot easier. After awhile, that species will survive better over the others and it will get passed from offspring to offspring till the whole population has that gene. Its not like somehwere along the lines a bird decides to grow a longer beak.

And say sometimes the gene sequence causes a species to have a certain quality which actually makes it ability to survive worse. This species won't last and the gene won't be spread a long so an evolution will not occur.

[Fred55]

Originally posted by tdsongster

This example would make sense that evolution is taking place. Maybe a better example would be climate change. If the temperature drops, animals develop thicker coats of fur.
It's not that one particular animal develops a thicker coat, its the species in general does......say there is 100 of this certain species, and lets say that 25 have very thick fur, 25 have very thin fur and 50 have some where in the middle(average). Okay? So when the climate changes, the 25 with thick fur survive, because their genes have given them thicker fur coats than the average animals. Lets say the thin furred ones die off and lets say 25 of the regular furred ones survive.
So we have 25 thick now and 25 average thickness. Now these 50 will mate with each other, and the thick furred ones will now pass on their thick fur genes to the later generations, giving the later generations a greater chance of surviving the cold climate due to having those genes. The next winter even more of the average furred ones die off and the thick furred ones survive, and keep passing their genes on for thicker fur. After many many years pretty soon all of the animals will now have thick fur, and be able to survive in the cold climate.
All species developed like this, a few specemins of a species have a genome due to mutations that allows them to survive better than others, allowing them to pass on that gene to later generations, and after a while the whole species is now adapted to a certian enviroment, need, or immuness to a disease. I hope you can understand all that!

[tdsongster]

Originally posted by I-7
Im reposting this because I don't think you read it.



Its a long process.. its not like it will happen in a few generations, it takes a very long time and I guess we are always adapting. It starts when only a few people have the certain advanced trait and it just gets spread. For example, a certain bird species is living on an island and their beaks are very small... but the seeds on that island that they need to eat are very big. Then along the line you have a bird that is born and its beak is considerably bigger. (just like sometimes babys are born with different unique qualities)

Obviously, the bird with the bigger beak will be able to eat the seeds easier and will survive better then the birds with the smaller beaks (natural selection). So the bird with the larger beak starts to take over and when it reproduces its birds also have big beaks so they also do much better then the birds with the smaller beaks so it spreads.

Its not like somehow scientifically along the lines its just like hmm we need a longer beak so lets give this bird a longer beak. It comes with varation among the offspring so some species will do better then others and in the end survive and spread that trait till all the bird population has large beaks.




Same with a fox living in the winter. One fox is born with a thicker coat and it survives over the fox with the thinner coat so that gene spreads until we classify it as an evolution.







So i'll say it again... somewhere along the lines there will be a certain gene sequence which causes the offspring to have a certain quality which makes living, eating, ect. a lot easier. After awhile, that species will survive better over the others and it will get passed from offspring to offspring till the whole population has that gene. Its not like somehwere along the lines a bird decides to grow a longer beak.

And say sometimes the gene sequence causes a species to have a certain quality which actually makes it ability to survive worse. This species won't last and the gene won't be spread a long so an evolution will not occur.


You are not reading my question is the problem. The whole beak example makes sense, but that is environment driven. How did flight come about, that is not environment driven.

[tdsongster]

Originally posted by Fred55
It's not that one particular animal develops a thicker coat, its the species in general does......say there is 100 of this certain species, and lets say that 25 have very thick fur, 25 have very thin fur and 50 have some where in the middle(average). Okay? So when the climate changes, the 25 with thick fur survive, because their genes have given them thicker fur coats than the average animals. Lets say the thin furred ones die off and lets say 25 of the regular furred ones survive.
So we have 25 thick now and 25 average thickness. Now these 50 will mate with each other, and the thick furred ones will now pass on their thick fur genes to the later generations, giving the later generations a greater chance of surviving the cold climate due to having those genes. The next winter even more of the average furred ones die off and the thick furred ones survive, and keep passing their genes on for thicker fur. After many many years pretty soon all of the animals will now have thick fur, and be able to survive in the cold climate.
All species developed like this, a few specemins of a species have a genome due to mutations that allows them to survive better than others, allowing them to pass on that gene to later generations, and after a while the whole species is now adapted to a certian enviroment, need, or immuness to a disease. I hope you can understand all that!


Again, this is environment. How did flight come to be?

[Fred55]

maybe some animal in the past was trapped on a cliff and it had a genentic abnormality that caused it to have early "wings" maybe that helped it escape and pass on that gene, over time as that gene becomes more common, some wings will be larger and some will be smaller. the larger ones will be able to fly better in a sense and stay away from trouble better, and they pass ont eh genes for the larger wings over time. it takes a long time to do , but it happens.

[Fred55]

wings may have started as a genenic mutation and just happened to give an animal an upper hand at something, and was able to stay alive and mate, passing it on.

[I-7]

Originally posted by tdsongster
You are not reading my question is the problem. The whole beak example makes sense, but that is environment driven. How did flight come about, that is not environment driven.

Same way just like sometimes a human will be born with webbed feet or some other strange quality. Along the lines ONE little "bird" will recieve two wings or extra flabs of skin attached to their arms and stronger muscles. They realize that if they flap their wings they can fly. That species can get food A LOT easier and can escape enemies easier so that species survives much better then the species still running for food and away from their enemies. That bird out survives the other birds reproduces maybe 1 out of 7 birds has that same quality. Same thing happens then that bird has 5 out of 7 birds with wings and the chain goes on until the generations keep changing and eventually all the birds have wings. It all starts in genetic mutations and it goes from there.

[tdsongster]

Originally posted by Fred55
wings may have started as a genenic mutation and just happened to give an animal an upper hand at something, and was able to stay alive and mate, passing it on.

That could be true, the genetic mutation thing but what directed it towards flight. It just kept geneticly mutating (by random chance) in the right direction? Why didn't it randomly do other things then just flight? What controls this?

[tdsongster]

Originally posted by I-7
Same way just like sometimes a human will be born with webbed feet or some other strange quality. Along the lines ONE little "bird" will recieve two wings or extra flabs of skin attached to their arms and stronger muscles. They realize that if they flap their wings they can fly. That species can get food A LOT easier and can escape enemies easier so that species survives much better then the species still running for food and away from their enemies. That bird out survives the other birds reproduces maybe 1 out of 7 birds has that same quality. Same thing happens then that bird has 5 out of 7 birds with wings and the chain goes on until the generations keep changing and eventually all the birds have wings. It all starts in genetic mutations and it goes from there.

So a genetic mutation caused an animal to have winds, and if it flapped them it could fly? Even the evolutionists don't make that argument.

[Fred55]

some mutations will kill the animals, others will let it survive, thats why you rarely see a genentic mutation that causes a trait that is actually worse than what normal ones had before, just because it will most likely just die.

[I-7]

The same reason all these inventions came up such as the lightbulb ect. You try new things and then your like wow I can actually fly with these things, then you fly to get food, fly to run away from the lion that wants a snack while your watching your buddy on the ground getting eaten. You reproduce and the gene is with the offspring and it goes from there.

[I-7]

Originally posted by tdsongster
So a genetic mutation caused an animal to have winds, and if it flapped them it could fly? Even the evolutionists don't make that argument.


Just think about it man, you try things out just like somewhere a long the lines we were like wow we can use this opposable thumb to do things you couldnt do before, the bird is like wow if I move my arms like this I actually come off the ground, and it goes from there.

[tdsongster]

Originally posted by I-7
Just think about it man, you try things out just like somewhere a long the lines we were like wow we can use this opposable thumb to do things you couldnt do before, the bird is like wow if I move my arms like this I actually come off the ground, and it goes from there.


THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT!!!! However me trying things is my brain driving it. What intelligence is driving the evolution process, so far all anyone knows is random chance. I am not going to invent a light bulb by just randomly doing things. There is thought and intelligence driving it.

[Ralph]

How did wings come about?

i think i remember learning something like this.

Everything started out as bacteria in water. Then fish came about etc. The fish had fins and flaps(whatever the hell those things are called, they use em to swim lol) and kind of a wing like structure, when those animals evolved some of them made it onto land. they all evolved differently according to their enviorment. Some of them may have kept their "little flappers" and they eventualy evolved more and more into wing like structures. They prob werent able to fly at that time. Look at chickens, they have wings but cant fly. Well some animals evolved and started being able to fly and some didnt need to and eventualy lost them. and some just stayed the same and thats prob why there is chickens today, they have wings but never ended up developing into something they could use for flight.

now back to the big picture. Why is almost every species built the same way? everything basicaly consists of a spine. Their limbs just all evolved a little bit diff and went on from there.


and for whoever asked i guess i am the
"photoshop guru" i do alot of work with photoshop around this site, im not even anything special though as there is much much better out there.

[I-7]

Originally posted by tdsongster
THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT!!!! However me trying things is my brain driving it. What intelligence is driving the evolution process, so far all anyone knows is random chance. I am not going to invent a light bulb by just randomly doing things. There is thought and intelligence driving it.

Think about that... evolution doesn't have a brain so there is no intelligence driving it. Its trial and error. Some mutations work to an advantage some work to a disadvantage. Im done with this thread I don't know why we are still on different pages here I think you are just trying to go in deeper then you really have to. Its not as complex as they make it out to be its just mutations making a big game of trial and error. It just seems like your trying to argue so

peace

[tdsongster]

Originally posted by I-7
Think about that... evolution doesn't have a brain so there is no intelligence driving it. Its trial and error. Some mutations work to an advantage some work to a disadvantage. Im done with this thread I don't know why we are still on different pages here I think you are just trying to go in deeper then you really have to. Its not as complex as they make it out to be its just mutations making a big game of trial and error. It just seems like your trying to argue so

peace

No dude, I don't want to argue, I want to find a better answer then random chance. I know there is someone out there who can educated me on this. This is something that I have thought about for a long time.

[Pappy]

you post a thread about something like evolution and expect everyone to jump onboard with your findings. it aint happening.


and a discussion is far from an arguement.

interesting thread.

[Fred55]

but it is random chance Some mutations work to an advantage some work to a disadvantage, you only really see the ones with advantages more often just because the ones with disadvantages most likely died becuase of it.

[Ralph]

Why do somepeople come out retarded? why are some people midgets. It all has to do with mutations and they are caused by nature, nothing controls them.

If you would like to get really techical. The earth is one giant polarized object. The North and South pole. This causes a magnetic field around the entire earth and this magnetic field shields out many dangerous rays from the sun that cause mutations in humans. but the thing is that these rays can cuase "positive" mutations as well. something that doesnt turn out half bad.

Now the next thing, using carbon dating, fossils and bones, scientists have found that there have been sudden spikes in evelution. Great changes in species over a short amount of time. The cause of this is theoried to be related with the magnetic fields of the earth. The concept is that every so million years the poles of the earth actualy swith, north becomes south and vise versa and this causes the magnetic field of the earth to change and allow more rays to come through causing the sudden increase in mutations.

sorry if some of this doesnt make flow perfectly im tired. i do remember this stuff pretty well though so ask if u odnt understand.

oh and please let me know if anybody actualy reads this stuff or if you people just look for a short post to throw an argument back to cause i have better things to do.

[I-7]

Originally posted by Pappy
you post a thread about something like evolution and expect everyone to jump onboard with your findings. it aint happening.


and a discussion is far from an arguement.

interesting thread.

Actually it started as a joke. I found a really long article and posted it to feed fuel to the fire before... :huh :ermm:

[I-7]

but in answer to your question is it just random?? Yes of course it is just random. If it wasn't random we would all be 10 feet tall, would be able to run 500 miles per hour, could fly, would be quadroopple jointed, every joint would be opposable, and our brains would be the size of jupiter (exaggeration)

If you wan't a scientist or something to answer the question with basically the same overall answer then go on a science forum or something.

[Ralph]

Originally posted by I-7
but in answer to your question is it just random?? Yes of course it is just random. If it wasn't random we would all be 10 feet tall, would be able to run 500 miles per hour, could fly, would be quadroopple jointed, every joint would be opposable, and our brains would be the size of jupiter (exaggeration)


dinosaurs:eek2: :chinese:

[stace609]

Originally posted by Ralph
dinosaurs:eek2: :chinese:
EXACTLY! When the environment changed, for whatever reason, the dinosaurs couldn't adapt fast enough probably due to their size and interbirth intervals whereas the smaller mammals that lived at the time were able to adapt.

[Ralph]

Originally posted by stace609
EXACTLY! When the environment changed, for whatever reason, the dinosaurs couldn't adapt fast enough probably due to their size and interbirth intervals whereas the smaller mammals that lived at the time were able to adapt.


or a big ****ing meteor crashed into earth and killed them all

[Fred55]

exactly, its random, who knows how when and why the enviroment will change? who knows what kind of mutations will develop

well ill let you guys finish the discussion out, i still have school tomorrow..(senior year..woot)

[Fred55]

Originally posted by Ralph
or a big ****ing meteor crashed into earth and killed them all the enviroment changed because of the meteor

[Ralph]

Originally posted by Fred55
the enviroment changed because of the meteor

yeah that and the giant fireball that made its way around the whole planet. lmfao. u realize how big of an explosion a meteor that size would make...

[troutman561]

if we are evolve when why arnt we all black, afterall they virtually have no skin concer, wouldnt that make sense in our"global warming" and depleating ozone crap.. which we could resist more uv rays and higher temps... also, black ppl jump higher, run faster, and get ripped easier, sounds more "advanced" to me?

lol this thred is fun

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by Fred55
the enviroment changed because of the meteor

BINGO !!!

Meteor hit earth which created a thick layer of dust in our atmosphere . No sunlight being allowed to pass through allowed the Earth to cool down , which in turn created an Ice Age . With the Ice Age , came the death of many animals , including the dinosaurs !!!

[stace609]

people have different skin colors because of where "lived." Those nearer the equater (Africa, South America, etc) have darker skin while those that live further and further away have lighter skin. There are several hypothess why including Vitamin, i think it's C or D poisoning. The more sun exposure the darker you needed to be to block it.

btw, on a note about the skin colors, according to genetics there no such thing as a "race." that one still boggles me because people look so different!

[Ralph]

u cant simplyfi things too much there is so much that goes into this, thats why people have phd's in this ****.

As for black people. where did they originate? africa, extremly harsh sun condtions. once the humans made their way around to the more northern areas the pigments may have lightend up for one reason or another.

Maybe to absorb more needed sunlight because believe it or not but ur body makes vitamin c i think out of the reaction of sunlight hitting ur skin. So in such harsh conditions with so much sun the body may have gotten enought with such dark skin pigment but further north with less sun the body might have needed to lighten up on the skin pigments to take in more sun.

Also does anybody notice how im using the words, might, could have, maybe,

none of it is really proven

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by Ralph
yeah that and the giant fireball that made its way around the whole planet. lmfao. u realize how big of an explosion a meteor that size would make...

Ralph ... check out this site . Maybe the "old world" ended when a Meteor hit my home town many many moons ago . This is where I'm from ... Sudbury. I'm guessing this meteor hitting this area , is the reason why all we have here is rock that is full of high grade metals ... Nickel being the major one . We are the Nickel Capital of the world . :D
Impact was like 10 billion Hiroshima Bombs .
:eek:

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9610/17/meteor/

From another website ...

The Sudbury Basin
What is it?



Sudbury sits in a huge oval-shaped depression in the rocky Canadian Shield. This giant crater holds one of the Earth's richest known deposits of nickel and copper.
The Sudbury Basin is 100km wide and 15 km deep. Most geologists agree that it was caused by a massive, 10 km-wide meteorite, travelling at 75 km per second, slamming into the Earth's crust about two billion years ago.

Sudbury started out as a camp for the workers who were building the Canadian Pacific Railway. It wasn't until 1856 that the nickel and copper ores were discovered in the area. The first mineral claims were staked in 1884.


This web site, Many Pennies From Heaven: Asteroid Impacts Render Riches,(http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/business/asteroid_impact_000216.html ) tells the story of how Sudbury was formed some 1.85 billion years ago, when the asteroid slammed into Earth with an impact said to have the equivalent energy of 10 billion Hiroshima bombs.

[Ralph]

yeah there is no denying that a meteor hit there, along with thousands of other places where meteors have it.

Actualy it has been theorized and it seems like the strongest theory that the moon was formed due to a meteor. Before the earth solidified supposidly a meteor hit the big ball of molton whatever u wanna call it and took a big chunk out of it. then the ball made its way into earths orbit and could be our moon now. And i think they even found an area where the moon would have came from because there is a lopsided area or something.


Isnt it nice talking on here at 1:12 on a school night being that all the little kids cant come in here and make stupid arguments...

[pistonbone]

Originally posted by troutman561
if we are evolve when why arnt we all black, afterall they virtually have no skin concer, wouldnt that make sense in our"global warming" and depleating ozone crap.. which we could resist more uv rays and higher temps... also, black ppl jump higher, run faster, and get ripped easier, sounds more "advanced" to me?

lol this thred is fun

There's more blacks in prison, more in the 'projects,' less in college, they wear funky clothes, and can't wear their hats straight... more advanced? lol

So flight... an early bird who had probably smaller "wings" and couldn't carry its body weight for very far freaks out because an animal attacks it, flails it's "wings" and all of a sudden it takes a huge "leap" with help from its "wings." The bird got away, maybe other birds saw this and learned "hey, if i flap these friggin things i can get away quicker, sweet." This happens continually to get away from animals and types of birds and their muscles and wing structure evolve into each type of bird and eventually a bird learns that he can go longer distances if he keeps flapping and learns to hunt and gather with the ability of flight.
That's my take on it.

[Ralph]

as for the blacks thing, that has to do with culture. Put 2 kids in a family. 1 white 1 black. Shield them from MTV and all that crap and they will be exactly the same.

[bwamos]

Micro-Evolution works. (Squirrel turning into flying squirrel)

There is lots of evidence of this, and is simply a process of adaptation. Survival of the fittest.

Macro-Evolution does not work. (Jellyfish turning into a Cow) I gave an example of why it does not work in the other thread. Also there is no conclusive evidence supporting this theory. There is not one hypothetical example of this phenomenon that does not have the infamous "missing link". That is because the missing link does not exist.

As I stated in the other thread.. I dare anyone to show me a single example of Macro-evolution that has the evidence to support it.