fullflight a-arms????

[red03400]

there sellin on ebay 4 resonably cheap and was wondering if thery r any good...they look alilt like janssens but ime not sure?? does neone no

[DirtDevilBT]

The Janssens and FullFlight look like junk. The only difference is that the Janssens at least give you a warrenty. The fullflights use hiem joints all the way around, weak points. I think fullflight does this to make up for an inconsistancy in production, then they can be adjusted to fix the problem. The best arms don't use hiems, like JD, Houser, and LSR. The LSR's are caster adjustable and have to have hiem on the top arm, but those are used properly.

IMO only, love to hear something from the other side.

[red03400]

i was also looking to buy burguard arms..are those any good??

[400exstud]

I live about an hour away from Jannsen Racing and amost all of the quads around here that are tricked out use Jannsen products. They are really good quality and as far as I know Jannsen has awsome service.

PS: when I was in there, their phone was ringing off the hook!

[kicker696]

janssen is an AWESOME company, they have by far the best service that i have ever seen, and there products are of the ut-most quality! And there warrenty is true, they stand behind every product that they make! In fact my brother crashed really bad this last weekend, and he has there LT a-arms and bent his left bottom a-arm. We took it down to them and they gave us a new one no questions asked! Tell me any other company that will TRULLY do that!!

[red03400]

yea my friends got a set of mx tech for his banshee and he says there awsome too....im just looking to do some trail but mainly mx riding...so i was just thinking about gettin the janssen factory pro a-arms for my 400ex....there also reasonably cheap...425 brand new thats sweet lol

[PismoLocal]

imo if you want cheap a-arms burgards are the way to go or asr sportstars, burgards are like $400 and asrs are $350. the sportstars are the least expensive arms asr makes and they only have hiems where the arms bolt to the spindle. it seems like the more expensive the arms are with full flight, asr, and wicked the more hiems they have.

[red03400]

are asr any good (wats there website??) ?? if im going to spend the money on arms i want them to hold up.....and are heim joints bad??? ive herd ppl say there not that great but idk.....thanks

[hontrx265r]

I'm pretty sure that FULL FLIGHT is or was the same as UGLY arms if you remember those and they are junk, friend of mine has them and they only lasted about six months. Also they guy with held a money order for a set and said it was lost. The post office said they had to wait thirty days so he sent the guy another money order, yea you guessed guy took both and ran. never returned emails and my buddy lost 450.00 bucks. oh yea jannssenn is good stuff.

[2001300exguy]

could you buy the cheep one off ebay like fullflight and then replace the heim and other joints with higher quality stuff from an auto store

[lobeeone]

I was down at full flights place today and talked to the owner for quite awhile, I am picking up a set on Wednesday. These are NOT junk, and have a lifetime warranty if you bend or break them.

[dangle]

Originally posted by red03400
are asr any good (wats there website??) ?? if im going to spend the money on arms i want them to hold up.....and are heim joints bad??? ive herd ppl say there not that great but idk.....thanks

ASR a-arms are a death wish...


Mike

[red03400]

fullflights sick..i just got a pair....so far there so nice ffor the $....and I stripped out the allen on the heim and they sent me a whole new heim piece no charge....there extremley good service and still waitnin to see on quality (60 ft table)

[Raptor Pilot]

I purchased a set of these and had them briefly (Full Flight arms). They are pure JUNK. At first glance, they look great. But pay attention to details and they begin to look like crap. I have an engineering background and one of my offices is at NASA Langley. I am also a machinist and fabricator for my company.

Now, back to the arms......... All the junctions were one tube meats another are crap. Instead of cutting out a nice radius so that one tubing butts well with another (and for maximum strength) they appear to be simply straight cut and the gaps MIG welded / filled in. DOODOO. Next thing I noticed is the fact that NOTHING was symmetrical about the arms at all when comparing left to right arms. The kick up angle were the lower HEIM bolts to the spindle were REALLY far off from one another (measured over 4 degrees differance). One arms was plus 1" forward, the other was barely 1/2" forward. Moreover....... the design of the arms is pure poop as well. The lower arm rear HEIM were it bolts to the frame is at such an angle, that it binds straight out the box if you were to mount these up to the quad. Lastly, All the HEIM were plain Jane steel, not chromoly, not stainless, not even Teflon lined. I cannot imagine those lasting very long at all on any type of off road vehicle. The powder coat looked good, but there were a few nicks in it, and you can see that the arms were NOT bead / sand / media blasted prior to powder coat which should be done for cleaning the metal and for proper adhesion of the coating. I have all this well documented with photos. I will say though.... Their (Full Flight) customer service was excellent. They answer all emails promptly and were always friendly. They wanted me to send them back the arms so they can see what happened and was going to re-send me back another set. I told them just to keep them and send me a refund which they did no problem. I thought having 12 points of adjustability would have been great dialing in the bike..... But it just turns out that they use all those HEIMS to make up for extremely sloppy craftsmanship in their arms.

I then purchased a set of Wicked Products arms. These arms are absolutely top notch!!! They’re made out of chromoly. Even the tie rods and the shocks mounts!! They use REAL ball joints and these are forged and require NO spindle reaming. They are rubber boot sealed also which is important for an off road vehicle. The arms were nice and symmetrical from one another and the junctions were tubing meats another was nicely matched (properly notched/radiused out) and excellently TIG welded. These also use Derlon lower bushings and although they’re supposed to be zero maintenance, I would have still liked to see some zerk/grease fittings here. The uppers use Heims for adjusting the camber and castor. They claim these to be Teflon lined, but when I received mine they are not. I emailed them about this, so we'll have to wait and see what they have to say. the powder coat was gorgeous. I ordered candy blue for my Raptor. Since candy is semi clear, I can see that the arms were indeed sand blasted prior to powder coat as should be. Very impressive. These arms are some super quality stuff, and the price is CHEAP. I highly recommend these arms to anyone.

Sorry for the rant. I hope this is useful for others.

~Mike..........

[Linkin24]

I know this thread is like a year old but that is probably the best arguement for why someone thinks that fullflights are not as well crafted as other brands. Most of the time people just they they cost less so they are junk.

I was just wondering though, how much strength do the arms lose by not having the noches cut out where the metal is jointed together? I mean they are jointed together with a nice weld. I am sponsored by them and only use there a arms and have had no problems with them, and i have put them through the ringer.

I would just think that if they were weaker because of that design, people would have stories of them breaking and getting hurt. i have never heard of anyone who uses them, having a bad experience with the other than the heims wear out.

Fullflight also fixed the problem with the less expensive heims by offering a set of chromoly ones as replacements. they have a special lining in them, not teflon, so they last longer.

also what is your opinion on using heims on the spindles. janssen makes some great a arms, and they use heims. i just hear a lot of people say that its not a good idea. I have even heard someone say that with the heims mounted on the spindle in that direction, you only get 10% of the strength that they are rated at. i dont think that could be 100% true.

Raptor Pilot could you maybe explain some of this to me.

[Ex_Rider43]

We dont read stories of them breaking because usually the people who get them are not the ones racing the A , pro am or the pro classes. People get them for trail riding, hitting the mx track sometimes, they dont put them to alot f stress. But the 12 stupid heims are completly pointless because they wear out in 2-3 rides. and buying the other teflon lined heims that they offer will make you spend more money on them and you could have bought a set of housers, JD or JB the same price.

[Linkin24]

ok i am not trying to be a dick but that was a useless post. i race and have put a lot of stress on mine and have had no trouble,like i said. i have 25 races on mine. Hit some big 75 foot doubles.

the second part of that that makes no sence it just because an a, pro am, or pro dosent use them dosent not mean there is not a lot of stress on the. Some b riders are juts a fast as some a riders.

and obviously you have never used them because you would know that the heims dont wear out after 2 or 3 rides.

i asked raptor piolot because he seems smart about the design of the a arms. unless you have some better input other than "well since pro guy dont use them they dont have a lot of stress put on them" just dont reply.

[Ex_Rider43]

I know people with them and also with janssens and they use the same type of heims. dont try to say that the heims that fullflight use are good because its not !!

and I know that maybe some b riders are as fast as some A and so on ... SAVE YOUR MONEY is what I say. Raptor pilot is right the tubing are straight cut and the welds looked filled up in some corners.

[bradley300]

just wondering, but since your not supposed to use metal utensils in a teflon coated pot or pan (because the metal to metal will ruin the teflon coating) then why would the same mteal on metal rubbing a teflon coated heim be any different? it would seem to me teflon coated heims are a waste unless someone has a decent explaination

[Linkin24]

Originally posted by bradley300
just wondering, but since your not supposed to use metal utensils in a teflon coated pot or pan (because the metal to metal will ruin the teflon coating) then why would the same mteal on metal rubbing a teflon coated heim be any different? it would seem to me teflon coated heims are a waste unless someone has a decent explaination

The only reasonable explanation i can think of is that a metal utensil is used to scrape a pan. the ball joints in the heims are polished and are not scraping, they are just riding in there. it reduces the friction, compared to metal on metal contact like some heims are.

[JW450R1]

just always remember that when u go cheap,u really get cheap.
i've been there and done that.never again.cheap set me back a year with a lot of ageeeerrrrr......some times cheap may work with some people,but never me again.my 2 cents

[smoothie]

well here is my 2 cents...

i have a set of full flights.... i DID love them... they were very nice and they fit alright too. having all those heim joints is kinda wierd but it works.... everything was fine and dandy till i hit a tree and it bent my frame.... a-arms are straight! suprised the hell out of me. so i'm kindof stuck with these arms till i get a new frame because i don't really believe in frame straightening because it can fracture welds and cause them to fail with time. i've already strengthened the frame where it's bent with some steel plate and adjusted my a-arms to fit straight on the quad. this is why i like them, if you do have a slightly bent frame they will compensate for it. so till i feel like coughing up 800 bucks for a new frame i will have to stick with these arms.

the reason why i don't like these arms...
i thought that heims would be awsome to have for the adjustment, and they really are nice for that matter. but they like to squeek when not lubricated and they have a decent amount of play in them..... and the crap with the spindle inserts and cones and tightening really bugs me. you only get them so tight.... and really it's not tight at all and makes the ride kind of iffy...

the heims that they gave me were kinda crappy. the spindle inserts are indeed joe shmo steel like someone stated previously. i had the threads strip out on one of the inserts and the nut came off. this was on the bottom arm. it happened when i was comming into a corner at about 40mph. lets just say my quad and i tumbled a couple of times....

since i didn't feel like waiting for them to send me new parts i made some new inserts out of some super strong stainless. no worries now but i will be calling them up soon and telling them i want my money back.

all in all the heim joint idea is great and maybe good for just the two on each side for the spindles but the rest of them are kind of pointless unless your frame is bent like mine... do yourself a favor and save the extra money it will be worth it in the long run.

sorry for writing a novel... B)

[Linkin24]

Originally posted by smoothie
well here is my 2 cents...

i have a set of full flights.... i DID love them... they were very nice and they fit alright too. having all those heim joints is kinda wierd but it works.... everything was fine and dandy till i hit a tree and it bent my frame.... a-arms are straight! suprised the hell out of me. so i'm kindof stuck with these arms till i get a new frame because i don't really believe in frame straightening because it can fracture welds and cause them to fail with time. i've already strengthened the frame where it's bent with some steel plate and adjusted my a-arms to fit straight on the quad. this is why i like them, if you do have a slightly bent frame they will compensate for it. so till i feel like coughing up 800 bucks for a new frame i will have to stick with these arms.

the reason why i don't like these arms...
i thought that heims would be awsome to have for the adjustment, and they really are nice for that matter. but they like to squeek when not lubricated and they have a decent amount of play in them..... and the crap with the spindle inserts and cones and tightening really bugs me. you only get them so tight.... and really it's not tight at all and makes the ride kind of iffy...

the heims that they gave me were kinda crappy. the spindle inserts are indeed joe shmo steel like someone stated previously. i had the threads strip out on one of the inserts and the nut came off. this was on the bottom arm. it happened when i was comming into a corner at about 40mph. lets just say my quad and i tumbled a couple of times....

since i didn't feel like waiting for them to send me new parts i made some new inserts out of some super strong stainless. no worries now but i will be calling them up soon and telling them i want my money back.

all in all the heim joint idea is great and maybe good for just the two on each side for the spindles but the rest of them are kind of pointless unless your frame is bent like mine... do yourself a favor and save the extra money it will be worth it in the long run.

sorry for writing a novel... B)

first off i would like to say that if you hit a tree and did not bend the a arms,but bent your frame, they must be constructed fairly well. if not they would have bent easily.

Now about the reasons you dont like the a arms. The squeaking is annoying, but as long as you keep them lubed up with WD-40 they wont squeak, and if you keep them clean they wont wear out as fast. Complaing anout that is like complaing about your motor knocking when you dont change the oil. that is part of the matinence with them. you do it it will extend the life of the heims. They wear out because people let the dirt set in them without lubing them and then they ride them over and over again and the dirt in between the bearing and the socket wears them out. That is where there new style heims they offer work well. They dont squeak, and have a much longer life do to the lining in them.

Now if you are not getting the spindle insert tight enough, thats not fullflights fault, you just didnt install them correctly. There are 2 gold washer that the a arms come with. Those both go on and then you tighten the nut down on them. weither or not you need the cones dosent matter, those gold washers have to go there or they are NOT installed right. If those washer are not on there, you cannot get them tight enough but that is why they came with them. If you dont install them right, and then you tighten the insert to much to get them tight you will strip them out. Just like any other thing with threads. If you had installed them right they would not have stripped out, unless like i said you got the way too tight.

Now as for the cones, you are wrong again. They are not made from crappy steel. they are made from aluminum. Aluminum is softer than steel and is used so that when the cone is put in the spindle and the insert is tightened, it will be smashed and get as tight as possible. You only need to use the cones if you have an 03' or 04' z. The 05 and 06 spindles had a smaller hole at the spindle and you are not supposed to use the cones.

I have installed 3 sets of fullflight a arms and have never had any of those problems you are talking about.

The last point you made, well you shoudnt have. You need more than just heims at the spindle. look at almost all of the aftermarket a arms. they almost all have heims on the top a arms that connects to the frame. If you say that they are not needed then you dont know anything about how to set up your front end. Those heims are where you set your caster. There are many different setting that are needed for different types of riding. check this out and then see if that point you gave makes any sence...

http://www.z400central.com/invision/index.php?showtopic=64313

i am not trying to be a jerk but to me most of the things that you said either didnt make sence or was an error in how you installed them. The only flaw in there a arms are the style heims they use. They DID not bend when you hit a tree. You can adjust them to make up for your bent frame, and if you had bent them the lifetime warranty would have covered them and you would have recieved a new set. Maybe you should rethink your opinion of there a arms, since they have been a decent set for your use.

and i am not going to get pissed off, but please dont come on here and write something bad about a product if you cant even install them right. it is not the companies fault you are not able to install them correctly. If you stripped out a spindle insert on a ball joint on a houser arms, its not there fault its yours.

also anyone with ASR a arms, feel free to give your input here. Fullflights and ASR a arms are almost identical. which by the way makes me laugh because people think fullflights are crap but like asr's.

-Lincoln

[Linkin24]

Originally posted by JW450R1
just always remember that when u go cheap,u really get cheap.
i've been there and done that.never again.cheap set me back a year with a lot of ageeeerrrrr......some times cheap may work with some people,but never me again.my 2 cents

Not always true. just because something is cheap does not it is not as good. some people swear by burgard a amr sbut look here...

http://www.z400central.com/invision/index.php?showtopic=66707&hl=ball+joint

even a company that is supposed to have a good quality product fails. so just because it is expensive, dont think it is so good it wont break.

I am sure that most of you know who jasont luburgh is. well i know him and his father. he actually came out and rode at a track about 5 minutes from my house called briarcliff mx. anyway, he is tryiing to get away from sponsor lonestar racing. He has been having things break on him so he is trying to go with a different company. Lonestar is a major player in the atv industry, and if there stuff will break, thats just shows you price has nothing to do with it. when you take a 400 lb quad and jump in the air 10 or 20 feet, it dosent matter who makes it. something could always break.

[smoothie]

Originally posted by Linkin24
first off i would like to say that if you hit a tree and did not bend the a arms,but bent your frame, they must be constructed fairly well. if not they would have bent easily.

Now about the reasons you dont like the a arms. The squeaking is annoying, but as long as you keep them lubed up with WD-40 they wont squeak, and if you keep them clean they wont wear out as fast. Complaing anout that is like complaing about your motor knocking when you dont change the oil. that is part of the matinence with them. you do it it will extend the life of the heims. They wear out because people let the dirt set in them without lubing them and then they ride them over and over again and the dirt in between the bearing and the socket wears them out. That is where there new style heims they offer work well. They dont squeak, and have a much longer life do to the lining in them.

Now if you are not getting the spindle insert tight enough, thats not fullflights fault, you just didnt install them correctly. There are 2 gold washer that the a arms come with. Those both go on and then you tighten the nut down on them. weither or not you need the cones dosent matter, those gold washers have to go there or they are NOT installed right. If those washer are not on there, you cannot get them tight enough but that is why they came with them. If you dont install them right, and then you tighten the insert to much to get them tight you will strip them out. Just like any other thing with threads. If you had installed them right they would not have stripped out, unless like i said you got the way too tight.

Now as for the cones, you are wrong again. They are not made from crappy steel. they are made from aluminum. Aluminum is softer than steel and is used so that when the cone is put in the spindle and the insert is tightened, it will be smashed and get as tight as possible. You only need to use the cones if you have an 03' or 04' z. The 05 and 06 spindles had a smaller hole at the spindle and you are not supposed to use the cones.

I have installed 3 sets of fullflight a arms and have never had any of those problems you are talking about.

The last point you made, well you shoudnt have. You need more than just heims at the spindle. look at almost all of the aftermarket a arms. they almost all have heims on the top a arms that connects to the frame. If you say that they are not needed then you dont know anything about how to set up your front end. Those heims are where you set your caster. There are many different setting that are needed for different types of riding. check this out and then see if that point you gave makes any sence...

http://www.z400central.com/invision/index.php?showtopic=64313

i am not trying to be a jerk but to me most of the things that you said either didnt make sence or was an error in how you installed them. The only flaw in there a arms are the style heims they use. They DID not bend when you hit a tree. You can adjust them to make up for your bent frame, and if you had bent them the lifetime warranty would have covered them and you would have recieved a new set. Maybe you should rethink your opinion of there a arms, since they have been a decent set for your use.

and i am not going to get pissed off, but please dont come on here and write something bad about a product if you cant even install them right. it is not the companies fault you are not able to install them correctly. If you stripped out a spindle insert on a ball joint on a houser arms, its not there fault its yours.

also anyone with ASR a arms, feel free to give your input here. Fullflights and ASR a arms are almost identical. which by the way makes me laugh because people think fullflights are crap but like asr's.

-Lincoln


ok well i feel kind of hurt that you put me down like so but it would also help if you clearly read my entire post....

i said yes i like them because you can use them with a bent frame and this and that, and yes they must be good if they did not bend when hitting a tree but the frame did. thats a little obvious...

now for what you said about me not liking them.... I know that they squeak and i did say that they do when NOT LUBRICATED. I try to keep all of my stuff well maintained, and i do so even with these a-arms. they are always lubricated with WD-40.

as for the play in them... yes i know that they will wear when they are not lubricated and kept clean. just like a ball joint would without a boot on it. they will get packed full of dirt and junk and wear out faster. when i received the heims they had the same amoutn of play in them as they do now right off the bat. not my fault by any means, i just try to work with it and keep them clean.

the spindle inserts and cones..... little washer you were talking about that needs to go under the nut for the insert..... well ya sure you need that thats why they give you one and tell you do use it in the installation instructions... also on this topic i don't know why the hell they don't give you castle nuts?!?! or at least a nylon locking nut for that matter?!?! ya you put the cotter pin through the end of the insert but that pin is still about a half inch away from the nut. by the time the nut gets that loose that cotter pin wont do squat.

as for them stripping out... i had the washers on there and tightened to specs and they still gave way... i don't believe that the reason they fell apart is because of improper install. if it was they would have gave way when i was hitting our 25ft table top and many jumps that send you about 8 feet in the air and about 12 feet forward. ya it's nothing big but if i didn't install them properly i would think that they would have busted upon one of the many landings of those jumps. they poor quality of the steel of the insert simply gave way. and even if you want to argue that with me you can't say that the steel used for those inserts is good cuz it's junk.

i never said that the insert cones were steel.... i said that the INSERTS are steel. i know the difference between aluminum and steel, it's quite obvious. also i never got anything that said that you don't have to use the cones on the 05' model. everything in the instructions said to use the cone, nothing about they year of the quad or anything like that.

yes i guess i was wrong about using the heims on the upper arm for caster adjustment. but they are not entirely necessary if you buy a set of arms without heims at those points which are already set to your wanted specs. true that you loose adjustment but they are not mandatory.

also i forgot to ad in my rant that when i hit that tree one of the inserts bent... cheep steel, i say this because i hit that tree at maybe.... MAYBE 10 mph. if a good steel or a stainless steel was used i don't think that it would have bent under that slight of an impact.

so to conclude chapter 2 i would like to say that as far as I am concerned, i did properly install them. and if i didn't then the instructions need to be updated because i did fallow them.

cheers

[Linkin24]

first sorry about sounding like a jerk. i am not going to argue, but you are the only person i have ever talked to with those problems. i raced a season of mx on mine and never once had those problems. I do know that when i installed mine the first time i installed them wrong, even though i thought i followed the directions. but after doing some reasearh on z400central and installing like i said 3 sets, and tearing mine down a few times i learned the right way to install them.

if you have an 05 or 06 and used the cones, thats why your spindle insert is bent. if you used the cones, the insert is not pressed in the spindle far enough. It puts stress on a part that is supposed to be in the spindle. if you fix it you will see how much fatrther it is supposed to be in the spindle. When they are installed right there wont be any problems with them bending.

About the heims, if you had let fullflight know that they play in them when you got them they would have replaced them for you. like i said, if you want to upgrade to the new heims fullflight offers, you will not be disappointed. they are the best heims i have ever seen. strongest and longest lasting. i had a prototype set before he even offered them and they are really sweet.

and one last thing. in the directions it says to use locktight on all the nut. if you do there will be no problems.

[JW450R1]

cheapies,well i had some cheapies and every 3 practices the ball joints were fallen out.so i put up with that for 1 year.then i purchased a set of gibson a-arms.i went over a year and those ball joints are tight.i really didn't have any luck with tem at all.all i can say if it works for u then thats good......

[smoothie]

thats ok, i'm try to stand on my own ground too, everyone does it. dont' sweat it, neither will i.

I will try to take the cones out and see how that works but something tells me that the insert will go in too far and there wont be enough threads to tighten down the insert. none the less i will try, i don't need any more accidents or reason to dump more money into my quad.

what did you all do different when installing them any other time? I'd like to invest in a set of new heims but they are like 100 for a set last time i checked.

i have an 05' and used the cones but it only bent from my accident. otherwise all the other ones are fine and i've been riding it with the cones in for almost this whole season.

[Linkin24]

Originally posted by smoothie
thats ok, i'm try to stand on my own ground too, everyone does it. dont' sweat it, neither will i.

I will try to take the cones out and see how that works but something tells me that the insert will go in too far and there wont be enough threads to tighten down the insert. none the less i will try, i don't need any more accidents or reason to dump more money into my quad.

what did you all do different when installing them any other time? I'd like to invest in a set of new heims but they are like 100 for a set last time i checked.

i have an 05' and used the cones but it only bent from my accident. otherwise all the other ones are fine and i've been riding it with the cones in for almost this whole season.

I unnderstand abotu standing up for yourself. its coo. anyway, about the insert. you will need to have both of the gold washers i spoke of. once you have the cones out and put the insert back in, those washer let you tighten it down and it pulls the insert all the way in the spindle. if you use any washers there to make space between the nut and the spindle it will work, but that is what the old ones were for.

I learned about this the hard way. I did not install mine right and bent my insert as well. called bill at fullflight and he is the one that informed me not to use the cones. if you do on an 05 like i said before, too much of the spindle is exposed and it sets up too high. that is why they bend because they were designed to be puleld all the way into the spindle. with an 03 useing the cones lets you pull it all the way down in.

also i learned later after the 2nd time i installed them that you have to adjust the top heims on the frame or it will handle really bad.

I f you like i can explain all of your situation to bill at fullflight and i will see what he can do for you. i can also get you a price on the new heims if you like. His old ones were 100 for an entire set of 12 i believe. i forget what he sells the new ones for but i will find out for you. that way you dont have to spend another 600 or 700 for a arms. he is a really nice guy and wants to help out his customers. but i will contact him and see how he can help you out. i will pm you and let you know. he should have an answer for me on monday or tuesday.

[smoothie]

alright thanks man, i appreciate it. well i will have to wait on the heims for now since i don't have the money and am looking for a a set of 18's and 20's and a pair of front rims for my 22's then i need a new frame..... ya i know i need a lot of money, don't we all.

i have spoke to bill before. he got me a new set of tie rods for the arms as i bent on of them. i sent him my bent one and my straight one and got two brand new ones. that was pretty nice of him. i wonder if maybe he would cut me a deal on those heims if i sent him my old ones?? well i will wait to see what you come up with for me and i'll go from there.

about the top heims. are you saying that the caster needs to be set up ? I have been needing to do that i just can't bring myself to do that. i have messed with the camber quite a bit but never looked into caster all that much. the only time i might have changed it was to compensate for my bent frame which i was working with the bottom heims only for that. i want to screw with it in a few days here and see what kind of results i get.

[Linkin24]

Originally posted by smoothie
alright thanks man, i appreciate it. well i will have to wait on the heims for now since i don't have the money and am looking for a a set of 18's and 20's and a pair of front rims for my 22's then i need a new frame..... ya i know i need a lot of money, don't we all.

i have spoke to bill before. he got me a new set of tie rods for the arms as i bent on of them. i sent him my bent one and my straight one and got two brand new ones. that was pretty nice of him. i wonder if maybe he would cut me a deal on those heims if i sent him my old ones?? well i will wait to see what you come up with for me and i'll go from there.

about the top heims. are you saying that the caster needs to be set up ? I have been needing to do that i just can't bring myself to do that. i have messed with the camber quite a bit but never looked into caster all that much. the only time i might have changed it was to compensate for my bent frame which i was working with the bottom heims only for that. i want to screw with it in a few days here and see what kind of results i get.

yeah you need to set the caster for your type of riding by adjusting the top rear heim that mounts to the frame. look at the link above. i did a whole write up on how to adjust it on z400central. that should make it easy to do and easy to understand. good luck.

[Linkin24]

smoothie,

bill at fullflight said to send him back the bent inserts and he will replace them for you ufor free. he has his gheims on his site for 229.00. he just lowered it from 300 of ra whole set. serioulsy, if you want a sweet set of heims that will last a very long time get these....

http://www.fullflightracing.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=27


seriously i had one of the first one of these and they are really sweet. but if you want to give him a call 1-602-455-0066 and tell him you talked to Lincoln Horsley and you are calling about sending the bent inserts back. just give him a call to make sure everything is taken care of. good luck man.

[400exrider707]

Just an FYI you guys with the heims are NOT supposed to spray lube on them!! This only makes them wear out faster because now all of the dirt and crud will only stick to them easier.

[Linkin24]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
Just an FYI you guys with the heims are NOT supposed to spray lube on them!! This only makes them wear out faster because now all of the dirt and crud will only stick to them easier.

Not true. The only way to keep them from squeaking, and to keep them clean is to use wd-40. you have to keep something on there so it is just noy dry metal on dry metal. that would wear out much faster.

[kicker696]

sorry linkin, but your wrong on this one. DO NOT spray anything on your heims to grease them, who cares if they make some noise, just listen to aftermarket shocks!

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by Linkin24
Not true. The only way to keep them from squeaking, and to keep them clean is to use wd-40. you have to keep something on there so it is just noy dry metal on dry metal. that would wear out much faster.

WD attracts the dirt that wears them out and makes them squeak in the first place!!!! Cleaning them is one thing, but not lubing!!!!

[TBD]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
WD attracts the dirt that wears them out and makes them squeak in the first place!!!! Cleaning them is one thing, but not lubing!!!!

Listen to these guys because they are right. Never spray any lube on hiems. A good quality hiem will come with a self lubricating liner in it so it is definitely not necessary to lube the hiem.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by TBD
Listen to these guys because they are right. Never spray any lube on hiems. A good quality hiem will come with a self lubricating liner in it so it is definitely not necessary to lube the hiem.

Yes and the key term here is a "good quality heim" which is typically found on a "good quality a-arm"

[smoothie]

ya i wouldn't neccesarily think you shouldn't have to lube them at all, but wither way you go the heims that are supplied with fullflight a-arms are not anything fancy. but then again it makes more sense to lube them, other wise it is metal on metal. drain the oil out of your engine and see how long that lasts, ya know? thats my view on it anyway...

[TBD]

Originally posted by smoothie
ya i wouldn't neccesarily think you shouldn't have to lube them at all, but wither way you go the heims that are supplied with fullflight a-arms are not anything fancy. but then again it makes more sense to lube them, other wise it is metal on metal. drain the oil out of your engine and see how long that lasts, ya know? thats my view on it anyway...

No way you should never lube a hiem used on a-arms. If it was in a controlled situation that would be different. The problem with the lube is that it attracts dirt and sand which will then work its way into the ball and race and then will act like a grinding wheel and just chew it all up. Pretty simple if you think about it.

[Raptor Pilot]

Originally posted by Linkin24
I know this thread is like a year old but that is probably the best arguement for why someone thinks that fullflights are not as well crafted as other brands. Most of the time people just they they cost less so they are junk.

I was just wondering though, how much strength do the arms lose by not having the noches cut out where the metal is jointed together? I mean they are jointed together with a nice weld. I am sponsored by them and only use there a arms and have had no problems with them, and i have put them through the ringer.

I would just think that if they were weaker because of that design, people would have stories of them breaking and getting hurt. i have never heard of anyone who uses them, having a bad experience with the other than the heims wear out.

Fullflight also fixed the problem with the less expensive heims by offering a set of chromoly ones as replacements. they have a special lining in them, not teflon, so they last longer.

also what is your opinion on using heims on the spindles. janssen makes some great a arms, and they use heims. i just hear a lot of people say that its not a good idea. I have even heard someone say that with the heims mounted on the spindle in that direction, you only get 10% of the strength that they are rated at. i dont think that could be 100% true.

Raptor Pilot could you maybe explain some of this to me.
Sorry for taking so long to respond, works been real busy.

As for the junctions were tubing joins one another. Here’s the deal, you DONT want any of your junctions to be the weak spot. You want the arm to BEND and not BREAK AT A JOINT when there’s a big hit/impact. Does this mean that these arms will break at the joints? NO, but most likely, if something breaks, its going to be at a junction were the tubing was NOT properly copped/chamfered/notched out for full strength. Further more on those junctions, they are MIG welded and filled in with weld. NOT GOOD. Cant beat a nicely notched tubing intersection that has been TIG welded with full penetration both for strength and showing PRIDE in craftsmanship.

These arms are DOM steel. There certainly STRONG, but heavy too. Chrome Moly is lighter AND stronger.

Take the price of the arm, then upgrade the HEIMs. Now, why didn't you just buy some good arms to begin with?

No, HEIMs are NOT engineered to take loads when used like they are on the spindles. Were they mount to the frame is fine, its a compression and tension load, not a side force load like were they are for the spindle mounting. Does this mean that they won’t work? NO, but those HEIMs were never engineered to take loads that way.

HEIM joints should NEVER be lubed. They are lined internally to prevent metal to metal contact. You lube them and that lube collects dust and dirt and turns into a nice sanding compound. They should be kept clean and that’s it.

Stating the simple fact that I said that my arms were not symmetrical at all from left to right arms I thought would have been enough for people to run away scared to hell about these arms. One arm was +1" forward, the other only 1/2". The angle of all 4 spindle HEIMs were all completely different from one another by an obvious amount that could be seen by the eye. The list goes on, I stated it all in my original post.

Boiling it down, there cricked (SP?) right out the box, hence all the adjustable HEIMS, to make up for horrid production standards. They use a noisy high maintenance and short-lived CHEAP HEIM joint at 12 locations. They are HEAVY and poor craftsmanship. They aren’t media blast prior to powder coating, so the powder coat will chip off fairly easy when compared to a proper prepared surface. Ohh, but wait, there CHEAP!!!

Will they break on you? Most likely not.

I have extensive pictures and a write up that I sent to Full Flight when I first got the arms. It’s in Microsoft Word. Anyone know how or want to post it for me? Its shows how they designed into the arms a HUGE mistake. the lower rear HEIM is mounted at an angle. Well this angle exceeds the angle at witch the HEIM will allow, therefore those POS arms mounted up BINDING the rear HEIM brand new straight out the box. FREAKIN JUNK!! Mind you, this was on a Raptor, this design oversight might not be engineered into other quad arms. But it’s scary how it exists.

K, my rant is over, draw your own conclusions from someone who had real experience in owning a set of these arms and not hearsay.

~Mike..........

[TBD]

Very well written post Raptor Pilot. I like that you included a lot of factual info. When someone wants an opinion on arms that is what they should get instead of the usaul "they're junk" response.

[Linkin24]

Originally posted by Raptor Pilot
Sorry for taking so long to respond, works been real busy.

As for the junctions were tubing joins one another. Here’s the deal, you DONT want any of your junctions to be the weak spot. You want the arm to BEND and not BREAK AT A JOINT when there’s a big hit/impact. Does this mean that these arms will break at the joints? NO, but most likely, if something breaks, its going to be at a junction were the tubing was NOT properly copped/chamfered/notched out for full strength. Further more on those junctions, they are TIG welded and filled in with weld. NOT GOOD. Cant beat a nicely notched tubing intersection that has been TIG welded with full penetration both for strength and showing PRIDE in craftsmanship.

These arms are DOM steel. There certainly STRONG, but heavy too. Chrome Moly is lighter AND stronger.

Take the price of the arm, then upgrade the HEIMs. Now, why didn't you just buy some good arms to begin with?

No, HEIMs are NOT engineered to take loads when used like they are on the spindles. Were they mount to the frame is fine, its a compression and tension load, not a side force load like were they are for the spindle mounting. Does this mean that they won’t work? NO, but those HEIMs were never engineered to take loads that way.

HEIM joints should NEVER be lubed. They are lined internally to prevent metal to metal contact. You lube them and that lube collects dust and dirt and turns into a nice sanding compound. They should be kept clean and that’s it.

Stating the simple fact that I said that my arms were not symmetrical at all from left to right arms I thought would have been enough for people to run away scared to hell about these arms. One arm was +1" forward, the other only 1/2". The angle of all 4 spindle HEIMs were all completely different from one another by an obvious amount that could be seen by the eye. The list goes on, I stated it all in my original post.

Boiling it down, there cricked (SP?) straight out the box, hence all the adjustable HEIMS, to make up for horrid production standards. They use a noisy high maintenance and short-lived CHEAP HEIM joint at 12 locations. They are HEAVY and poor craftsmanship. They aren’t media blast prior to powder coating, so the powder coat will chip off fairly easy when compared to a proper prepared surface. Ohh, but wait, there CHEAP!!!

Will they break on you? Most likely not.

I have extensive pictures and a write up that I sent to Full Flight when I first got the arms. It’s in Microsoft Word. Anyone know how or want to post it for me? Its shows how they designed into the arms a HUGE mistake. the lower rear HEIM is mounted at an angle. Well this angle exceeds the angle at witch the HEIM will allow, therefore those POS arms mounted up BINDING the rear HEIM brand new straight out the box. FREAKIN JUNK!! Mind you, this was on a Raptor, this design oversight might not be engineered into other quad arms. But it’s scary how it exists.

K, my rant is over, draw your own conclusions from someone who had real experience in owning a set of these arms and not hearsay.

~Mike..........

thank you for responding. i wanted to here the rest of you opinion. i actually have mine off now and i compared the 2 sides and mine are symetrical. like you said yours was a raptor and mine is a z so that could be one reason why. as for the bottom rear heim i didnt notice it being at an angle that let it bind. i will have to say that the heims that they come with standard are not as good as some of the other companies but thats why they are priced a little cheaper. mine did not wear as quickly as some people have though.

also if you get the arms from the website, they are made from chromoly. the ones he sells on ebay are made of steel DOM tubing.

If you upgrade the heims you i still dont think that you would have as much in them as some other brands because you can substitute the older ones for the new ones.

but i do respect your opinion because you gave reasons for your opinions and didnt just say they cost less so they are junk. would you please send me the write up that you sent to fullflight. my email is linkin24@hotmail.com. thanks.

[smoothie]

send it here too if you could please. I would like to read what you have to say about them and what you experienced. I have had some pretty decent luck with mine, besides with the heim joints and spindle inserts. here is the e-mail:

kasperbranski_15@hotmail.com

thanks

[400exrider707]

ooh ooh me too!!

mtdewman015@hotmail.com

Finally some solid proof to show everyone that thinks they are just inexpensive arms.

[Ex_Rider43]

ex_rider52@hotmail.com

thank you !

[Raptor Pilot]

Alright guys, everyone got the emails.

Bill (from Full Flight) was and is a super nice guy, he gave me a full refund. I know he's just trying to make our sport a little more affordable, I just like tough, well engineered, and low maintenance parts be it stuff for my sport car, sport bikes, quad, truck, mountain bike, RC stuff, guns, or home (yeah I know, way too many hobbies and I just named a few lol). I like good products that last with some forethought in engineering the product and good craftsmanship. I feel the arms I got lacked all the aformentioned and found a set that match my criteria for not a whole lot more $$$. Perhaps its the engineer or the fact that I am a machinist also in me that makes me anal about my stuff, or perhaps it simply helps me spot junk. maybe both.

Mind you also, I got my arms over a year ago. So maybe things in production are a little tighter now, although Linkin24 is sponsored by them, he says his arms have those filled in with weld junctions too......................

~Mike...........

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by Raptor Pilot
Alright guys, everyone got the emails.

Bill (from Full Flight) was and is a super nice guy, he gave me a full refund. I know he's just trying to make our sport a little more affordable, I just like tough, well engineered, and low maintenance parts be it stuff for my sport car, sport bikes, quad, truck, mountain bike, RC stuff, guns, or home (yeah I know, way too many hobbies and I just named a few lol). I like good products that last with some forethought in engineering the product and good craftsmanship. I feel the arms I got lacked all the aformentioned and found a set that match my criteria for not a whole lot more $$$. Perhaps its the engineer or the fact that I am a machinist also in me that makes me anal about my stuff, or perhaps it simply helps me spot junk. maybe both.

Mind you also, I got my arms over a year ago. So maybe things in production are a little tighter now, although Linkin24 is sponsored by them, he says his arms have those filled in with weld junctions too......................

~Mike...........


What arms did you end up buying then?

[Raptor Pilot]

I bought Wicked Products A Arms.

Quote from my first post, I know.... theres been 4 pages of this now, I didn't really expect anyone to remember my first post here.




Originally posted by Raptor Pilot
I then purchased a set of Wicked Products arms. These arms are absolutely top notch!!! They’re made out of chromoly. Even the tie rods and the shocks mounts!! They use REAL ball joints and these are forged and require NO spindle reaming. They are rubber boot sealed also which is important for an off road vehicle. The arms were nice and symmetrical from one another and the junctions were tubing meats another was nicely matched (properly notched/radiused out) and excellently TIG welded. These also use Derlon lower bushings and although they’re supposed to be zero maintenance, I would have still liked to see some zerk/grease fittings here. The uppers use Heims for adjusting the camber and castor. They claim these to be Teflon lined, but when I received mine they are not. I emailed them about this, so we'll have to wait and see what they have to say. the powder coat was gorgeous. I ordered candy blue for my Raptor. Since candy is semi clear, I can see that the arms were indeed sand blasted prior to powder coat as should be. Very impressive. These arms are some super quality stuff, and the price is CHEAP. I highly recommend these arms to anyone.



~Mike...........

[400exrider707]

Yeah I figured it was buried in the posts somewhere...didn't really have the ambition....

I read your email and that was excellent, very detailed. It would be interesting to see if his "newer" arms have changed at all.


Also did you hear back about the heims and the teflon lining?

[Raptor Pilot]

I just realised that I left something out of the emails I sent you guys. The "fix" that I suggested that had two pictures that were photo chopped were in a seperate email. I'll see if I can post them here, not like its important, just because in my email to you guys I said I encluded it. So here it is......... picture of stock arm with binding rear Heim, and a photo chopped one with non binding Heim.


crap, no dice, files too big.


OK, I hosted it, shouold work

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1197/fullflightarms0094or.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8431/fullflightarmsmod24ho.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


~Mike..............

[Linkin24]

mine do not bind up like that one does. maybe he changed his design since then, but i have had nothing buy good luck with mine.

[Raptor Pilot]

Well, again, this is for a Raptor. Theres been 2 other Raptor owners with the same problems on another forum. None of them realised it till I pointed it out (binding, none symetrical). Then after taking their arms back off noticed that theirs were not symetrical either.

~Mike..................

[400exrider707]

Linkin please post a pic of your arms! Are they like the style raptor pilot had?

I cant believe he didn't even design that bend into it. Heims are supposed to be straight on, or at least that would make the most sense. Your photshop is exactly how arms are and should be made is what my first thoughts were after I saw your pics in the email. I cant believe arms are sold like that.

[smoothie]

ya that is crazy. I more than likely wounldn't have taken that into consideration, but it most definantly makes sense.

if you don't mind me asking what kind of machining are/were into? I'm into maching quite a bit and have done a fair amount of stuff on lathes and mills as well as some master cam and cnc mill work.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by smoothie
ya that is crazy. I more than likely wounldn't have taken that into consideration, but it most definantly makes sense.

if you don't mind me asking what kind of machining are/were into? I'm into maching quite a bit and have done a fair amount of stuff on lathes and mills as well as some master cam and cnc mill work.

I have done all of the above with the exception of master cam, I've used nearly every other engineering software program on the planet though. I helped to build a buggy for the SAE baja competition. Ill get pics off my comp at home and get the link for our webpage.

At least now you know that if you ever see an arm being designed like that to run away!

[bkp]

I have a set on my YFZ I had some Janssen a-arms on a banshee and they were killer. The fullflight are not bad but they have way to much adjustability. They are ok for the money but the heims are as cheap as they come. I went to my local dirt track car racing store and spent about 125.00 on the good heims and they have been good so far. Heres a pic
Originally posted by red03400
there sellin on ebay 4 resonably cheap and was wondering if thery r any good...they look alilt like janssens but ime not sure?? does neone no

[smoothie]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
I have done all of the above with the exception of master cam, I've used nearly every other engineering software program on the planet though. I helped to build a buggy for the SAE baja competition. Ill get pics off my comp at home and get the link for our webpage.

At least now you know that if you ever see an arm being designed like that to run away!

ya for sure. it's good to know for the future. that would be awesome if you could post up some pics, i'd love to see them. I'll get a few shots of my work on master cam. right now i'm making a simple yet neat part, a parking brake blockoff B) it's very simple but it's still kool. and i will be working on a crank case saver soon also.

also that is a very nice yfz. i live only about an hour and a half from janssen and my buddies uncle is sponsored by them. very cool bunch of people.

i gotta post up some pics of my quad for you guys some time.... might do that later tonight....

[smoothie]

here is mine... i know i need a new bumper, it's form a tree B) damm things pop up out of no where. also this is what happens when your last resort is a step side s10....... :o..... my buddies truck....so gay lol

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n4/nazx/DSCN0510.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n4/nazx/DSCN0509.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n4/nazx/DSCN0513.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n4/nazx/DSCN0526.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n4/nazx/DSCN0528.jpg

here is his YFZ that just got the plastic out of the paint shop. looks sweet i think. :eek2:

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n4/nazx/DSCN0540.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n4/nazx/DSCN0543.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n4/nazx/DSCN0544.jpg

[Linkin24]

smoothie whatever happend with the heims and the inserts from fullflight? just wondering. nice z by the way. when i get mine done i will post some pics as well. the new a arms will be here wednesday/

[smoothie]

i was going to post up on that... i tried calling bill at the beginning of the week. I left him a message and he never got back to me. I was going to give him a call again on Monday. do you have a better number to reach him on? thanks for the compliment:) still needs a lot though... whenever funds approve.

[brokenmike]

I have ASR a-arms with the heims and my friend has full flights and we keep them clean and I spray WD-40 on them after we wash it after we ride them . After 3 years of riding and jumping they are still tight and we have no problems with them.