View Full Version : heim joint or ball joint
Leschj03
08-01-2005, 09:46 PM
i was just curious which is better a ball joint or heim joint, easier to maintain and stronger??
450robot
08-01-2005, 10:13 PM
ball joints are better in efficientsy (sp), reliability, and stronger in every aspect
Out_Sider
08-01-2005, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by 450robot
ball joints are better in efficientsy (sp), reliability, and stronger in every aspect
wrong
heims are stronger, more reliable, but require more maintence than that of a ball joint
K_Fulk
08-02-2005, 04:35 AM
I'll take the laeger style ball joints over heims anyday.
Originally posted by Out_Sider
wrong
heims are stronger, more reliable, but require more maintence than that of a ball joint
Wrong.
Quad18star
08-04-2005, 10:30 AM
What's the difference between the 2 ?? I've always owned quads that had ball joints on the a-arms .... never heim joints . Anyone got a picture to show me what the difference is ?? :confused:
EvilJester400EX
08-04-2005, 11:32 AM
Heim joints do handle better, however, they don't last anywhere near as long as a balljoint will. Balljoints are better - far less maintenence and money. In one month I had already replaced my old heims once and they had already started to wear down to the point they needed new ones again.
TC426EX
08-04-2005, 11:45 AM
Heim joints are a joke... Ive watched more than a few friends use them and end up cursing them within 2 weeks. They are total garbage and I agree with Kyle... Nothing is better than beefy Laeger balljoints (except protrax of course)
Quad18star
08-04-2005, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Quad18star
What's the difference between the 2 ?? I've always owned quads that had ball joints on the a-arms .... never heim joints . Anyone got a picture to show me what the difference is ?? :confused:
300exOH
08-04-2005, 01:01 PM
A ball joint is a sealed ball and socket. Here's a pic of a heim joint.
Quad18star
08-04-2005, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by 300exOH
A ball joint is a sealed ball and socket. Here's a pic of a heim joint.
Ok that's what I figured it was ... just making sure . Now tell me ...I know that it's threaded into the a-arm ... but the open end , what does it connect to ?? ( Sorry , it's been a while since I've looked at the front end of a quad ... heck the last time I changed a ball joint was on my 92 Suzuki .. I was 17 at the time :ermm: )
Tommy 17
08-04-2005, 02:05 PM
laeger has the best ball joint out there...
laeger, JB, JD and a few others all run them... they are the best out there...
K_Fulk
08-04-2005, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by Quad18star
Ok that's what I figured it was ... just making sure . Now tell me ...I know that it's threaded into the a-arm ... but the open end , what does it connect to ?? ( Sorry , it's been a while since I've looked at the front end of a quad ... heck the last time I changed a ball joint was on my 92 Suzuki .. I was 17 at the time :ermm: )
They have a stud that goes through the hole and connects to the spindle.
K_Fulk
08-04-2005, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by Tommy 17
laeger has the best ball joint out there...
laeger, JB, JD and a few others all run them... they are the best out there...
Houser started using them too. :macho
Quad18star
08-05-2005, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by K_Fulk
They have a stud that goes through the hole and connects to the spindle.
Ah alright ... thanks . I'm gunna have to pay more attention to the front of some quads next time I'm out at the track . Like I said , I've always been used to the balljoints . When I had my Laeger arms on my LT , they seemed to hold up pretty good . I only replaced one in the time I had the quad.
Ride1Rob
08-07-2005, 11:17 PM
I just ordered some Full Flights which have hiem joints. Other guys that have them say they love them and they handle better? I'll know the difference hopefully by the w/e coming.
I'm not sure why you would think that by using a hiem the geometry would change and improve the handling. I know that's not what was said but to change handling charcteristics just changing to hiems wouldn't do it. In some cases hiems do have less stiction so the frontend feels smoother when moving. Once ball joints break in they will have the same stiction characteristics as a hiem. The other thing is that the builders that are using hiems( not sphericals )are using them in a direction that only gives them 10% of the rated strength value. Hiems are designed for end to end use( pushing and pulling ) not shear loads as they are used in many applications.
The full flight arms, if I remember correctlly, have the hiems at the pivots that are welded. If that is the case then how would you replace them?
Pappy
08-08-2005, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by K_Fulk
I'll take the laeger style ball joints over heims anyday.
i agree, friends that have been running various types of front ends with heim ends have been non stop complaining because they are constantly replacing them. im not sure why they wear faster, it could be the lack of protection from dirt and debris, or maybe has something to do with what TBD stated regarding the type of load. either way, i avoid them.
Ride1Rob
08-08-2005, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by TBD
The full flight arms, if I remember correctlly, have the hiems at the pivots that are welded.
They're not welded at the pivots (pic below). I don't know if it's actually better on not:confused: . I asked some guys that had purchased Full flight arms and they all said they were better than they're stockers (which had ball joints). Myslef, I got the Full Flights b/c they're 12 point adjustable;) and they're strong. One guy e-mailed me and said he smacked a tree and didn't have one scratch in em. Bent his tie rod though. I guess the key to longevity of the heim joints would be keeping the lubricated well b/c they're exposed to the elements more.
Originally posted by Ride1Rob
They're not welded at the pivots (pic below). I don't know if it's actually better on not:confused: . I asked some guys that had purchased Full flight arms and they all said they were better than they're stockers (which had ball joints). Myslef, I got the Full Flights b/c they're 12 point adjustable;) and they're strong. One guy e-mailed me and said he smacked a tree and didn't have one scratch in em. Bent his tie rod though. I guess the key to longevity of the heim joints would be keeping the lubricated well b/c they're exposed to the elements more.
I would like to point out a couple of things I see about these arms. Please don't think that I'm bashing them. I have never seen these arms personally, I've only seen photos. One thing is about the 12 point adjustability. They say that if you have a messed up frame that you can use the hiems at the pivots to adjust for that. Here is what's wrong with that. If you reposition the lower arm to compensate for that you have also repositioned the shock mount. Shocks do not last very long if they are not aligned with the top mount. Second is that the hiems they are using appear to be a economy hiem( low grade steel ). The other thing is that the hiems are not designed to be used in this direction( axial static load ). I wouldn't recomend lubricating the hiem. I have found that all that does is attract dirt that will then grind between the ball and race and wear out the hiem prematurely.
Ride1Rob
08-08-2005, 02:35 PM
Good points... how long do you think they'll hold up?
Originally posted by Ride1Rob
Good points... how long do you think they'll hold up?
I'm not sure what part you are asking about. The arms themselves appear to be built very nice. The hiems would be better if they were chromoly or stainless. I prefer the QA1 hiems. If you are talking about the shock holding up it would depend on how far out of alignment it might be. The bad part with the shock is that the components that will get effected by the misalignment are the pricey parts. Piston, body and the shaft. Like I said, the basic construction of the arm looks good. I myself would only use hiems on the upper at the frame for caster adjustability. If I were to use a hiem at the spindle it would be a spherical that would be mounted in a chromoly cup.
Ride1Rob
08-08-2005, 03:02 PM
Well my frame isn't bent so my Elkas should be fine. Was just wondering how long you thought the hiem joints would hold. Seems like you know alot about this type of stuff. Thanx for taking me to school;) .
Originally posted by Ride1Rob
Well my frame isn't bent so my Elkas should be fine. Was just wondering how long you thought the hiem joints would hold. Seems like you know alot about this type of stuff. Thanx for taking me to school;) .
Without knowing what kind of rider you are I couldn't tell you how long they will last. I would run them until they get play in them(with that type of hiem the manufacture usually puts a little play in them) and then swap them out for a quality hiem that will probally double the life that you will get from these hiems.
Out_Sider
08-08-2005, 04:18 PM
heh, i got called wrong :)
o well it happens, but what about the heims that Walsh and Gibson use on their arms? how are they?
Originally posted by Out_Sider
heh, i got called wrong :)
o well it happens, but what about the heims that Walsh and Gibson use on their arms? how are they?
I think you are refering to the spherical bearings that they use at the end of the arm at the spindle. If I'm right, that is what I would use if ball joints weren't available. Depending on which brand they are, they will hold up well. I use to use the sphericals in past designs but have found that there is no real advantage to using them over a ball joint. I found that they to have a tendency to wear out prematurelly because they are not sealed. As far as strength goes, they are much stronger then using a hiem. As for the hiems used on the lowers of the Walsh arms, I still do not agree with using hiems at the pivot. There is no need to adjust the lower arm at the pivot so why use a hiem that is not as strong as a pivot tube and bushing or bearing. Walsh does appear to use a quality hiem.
Where can i buy better heims then what i have now like what companys.
Originally posted by JR3
Where can i buy better heims then what i have now like what companys.
Check out QA1. Or you could call Rated X Motorsports, they carry them.
Lethalhonda2
08-08-2005, 09:51 PM
I still say a bearing that is not sealed has no place on an Atv. I have had A-arms with the Heim bearing design and will never go back to them.I feel the durability of a ball joint is far superior to the Heim.I was really suprised to see alot of the MX racers at Unadilla had the Heim bearings a-arms.Of course they probably replace them quite a bit too and they dont see all the mud and dust that a cross country bike would.So I wouldnt waste your time or money on them... Just my .02 though........
sandspanker
09-06-2005, 10:54 PM
:cool: There is good points and bad pionts of the heims. I still have the stock arms because im cheep.:D I guess having the heims on the lower arms wolde be good IF THE LOWER ARM GOT BENT,IT WOULD NOT BIND AT THE PIVOT,LIKE A STOCK PIVOT WOULD,it would allow a person to finish a moto posabliby. And maybe the racers run the heims because they have heim joint sponsors/a-arm sponsors.I would run ether type of arm.Like a lot of you noted all it takes is maintance.
MXRACER86
09-07-2005, 12:49 PM
My Gibson front end uses a King Pin setup., And unlike most balljoints, it is built into the a-arm!"Alot Stronger"
BLACKeR
09-11-2005, 12:27 PM
the biggest advantage to the heim joint is that it does not bind up like a ball joint will, it can move unrestricted. a heim joint at just the spindle would not be too bad. however would stay away from the 12 point adjustable arms if i were you. i think the only reason they are used is because its cheaper to make arms that way. full flight, ASR, Wicked etc. use those i think because they dont have to deal with squaring up the housing for the bushing where it bolts into the frame. therefore they can make arms a lot cheaper. while you can adjust your caster with the 12point arms, any good arm should have proper geometry to begin with. if your tight on cash those arms work just fine but keep in mind your going to have to replace heims a lot, and your going to have 12 of them. i have 12 point adjustable arms now, and this winter i plan on getting rid of them simply because it cost me somethign like $140 to replace all the heims and by the end of the summer their flopping all over the place. if you ride a lot and in harsh conditions, you could end up replacing heims twice a year. i do it once a year, but thats because i couldnt afford $300 a year on heims. a few years of that and i could have just bought a protrax...
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.1 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.