HH Pistons

[HUNTSALOT]

Anyone tried the Hammer Head Piston yet. I will have some info on it for you guys later. Keep watching this.

[29FTEX]

Is the information that you have how the HH piston doesn't perform as well as a Sparks 13.5:1 that you tested, witnessed being tested, or heard about being tested?

[HUNTSALOT]

no it will be on the weights and a couple other things

ill be waiting :macho

[TrX450rKiD]

OK.... here's some weights: complete with rings+pin+clips

stock 450r = 464 grams

stock bore HammerHed 13.75:1= 372 grams

480cc HammerHedz 14:1= 366 grams

JE 480cc "shelf" 13:1 = 404 grams!

Originally posted by TrX450rKiD


so will the stock bore run on pump gas with a crf cam and some porting?

[TrX450rKiD]

Hmm .. I think it will be OK. I know you would be FINE with an HRC or Hotcams Stg 2. But, I think you will be OK with the CRF also.

[HUNTSALOT]

Ok all here it is.

Sparks 13:5.1
Piston------261g
Wrist Pin----85g (150 wall)
Total Weight-----366g

HH Piston
Piston-------281g
Wrist Pin------71g (120 wall)
Total Weight----- 374g

Talked to JE today about getting a 120 wrist pin for my sparks to make it even lighter and they said no no no 120 is a mistake every 120 that they have done has broke and messed up the engine big time. I will be getting a brand new JE 13.1 and weigh it too. Also the sparks and HH are brand new just pulled out of the boxes.

[TrX450rKiD]

CP said that the 120 wall was fine ... they obviously are two different manufacturers, I guess the CP pins are stronger.

[HUNTSALOT]

Originally posted by TrX450rKiD
CP said that the 120 wall was fine ... they obviously are two different manufacturers, I guess the CP pins are stronger.
Im sure you are right kid you know eveything it is not going to happen on this site kid. And were did you get your numbers kid do you have any of those piston in your post?

[TrX450rKiD]

I got them from the manufacturer, is that not a good source? LMAO

so the sparks is actually lighter :confused:

[HUNTSALOT]

Yes it is lighter with a better wrist pin. Also kid you got that from Mixxer I saw his post. LMAO *****

[TrX450rKiD]

Originally posted by HUNTSALOT
Yes it is lighter with a better wrist pin. Also kid you got that from Mixxer I saw his post. LMAO *****
He isn't the manufacturer? OK, sorry, wrong term .. the people SELLING THE PISTON!

[TrX450rKiD]

Originally posted by XxHonda_RacerxX
so the sparks is actually lighter :confused:
Aren't you going with 12.25:1 anyway because of pump gas?

Originally posted by TrX450rKiD
Aren't you going with 12.25:1 anyway because of pump gas?

ya but i can get sparks to get me any comp i want, they just change the 13.75 lower for me :macho

i was gonna get the HH piston, but im def going CP after this post :macho

[HUNTSALOT]

Im sorry kid but your post on the piston weight is exactly like mixxer post over there.

[HUNTSALOT]

you should go with the curtis spark piston I know a guy that won the 4-stroke wars with the Curtis Spark stock bore piston you cant go wrong.


Originally posted by XxHonda_RacerxX
i was gonna get the HH piston, but im def going CP after this post :macho

[TrX450rKiD]

Originally posted by HUNTSALOT
Im sorry kid but your post on the piston weight is exactly like mixxer post over there.

Dude, he owns VCP :huh What are you smoking?

[TrX450rKiD]

Originally posted by HUNTSALOT
you should go with the curtis spark piston I know a guy that won the 4-stroke wars with the Curtis Spark stock bore piston you cant go wrong.
Yep, JJK. I'm sure it was all the Sparks piston, had nothing to do with the fact that he spent countless hours on the dyno, tweaking every last thing possible on his bike ...

[HUNTSALOT]

i know he spent lots of time on the dyno that is why he had the sparks piston, johnson cam , & HMF pipe not the PC

[HUNTSALOT]

Im sorry kid but your post on the piston weight is exactly like mixxer post over there.

[HUNTSALOT]

Originally posted by TrX450rKiD
Dude, he owns VCP :huh What are you smoking?
Who owns a VCP???

Originally posted by HUNTSALOT
Who owns a VCP???

mixxer

[HUNTSALOT]

I know mixxer does I was asking kid if he weighed all those piston him self on his post. But his post was exactly like mixxer to the T from .org.

[cals400ex]

the HH does have higher compression though. i don't know if that weight difference will amount to much. who even knows if the sparks is a true 13.5:1. i never tested it. then again, i never tested the HH either. :D

i would bet the HH is more advanced than the sparks if i had to guess.

[370kingR]

I have a thought on all this Mike. The sparks piston might actually weigh less than the HH however.....

Is there patented pending flow paths between valve pockets on the sparks...no

Does the sparks have the same squish dimensions and clearance which is most important in making additional power?

Can you run ANY high profile cam in the sparks setup as you can in the Hammerheadz? That in itself is worth it....

Do they have the same skirt measurments?

Do they share the same rings?

Do they have the same dome dimensions?

All im saying here is there is ALOT more than just piston weight. Although very important, but not the do all, say all in this bashing post. The HH obviously weighs MUCH less than 95 percent of the pistons out there and with much better inovative designs as well built right in.

One more thought before i go...

Do you really think a competitive company will say that there competitors wrist pin is better than theirs.....i think not. I never once heard a performance shop say a good thing about another performance shop, ever. Why would you think JE is any different?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by HUNTSALOT
I know mixxer does I was asking kid if he weighed all those piston him self on his post. But his post was exactly like mixxer to the T from .org.

you are jjk?

[TrX450rKiD]

Originally posted by chad502ex
you are jjk?
Nope, he knows him. He also doesn't have to do anything to his engines, he doesn't know how so he just "pays someone to do that." :rolleyes:

I said right from the beginning that I got those from the company selling the pistons, not once did I say I weighed them. Luda was the one that weighed the pistons you listed too!

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by TrX450rKiD
OK.... here's some weights: complete with rings+pin+clips

stock 450r = 464 grams

stock bore HammerHed 13.75:1= 372 grams

480cc HammerHedz 14:1= 366 grams

JE 480cc "shelf" 13:1 = 404 grams!

just curious why the stock bore "smaller" HH piston with lower CR would weigh more than "Bigger" 480cc higher CR HH piston?

[Blown 331]

Very interesting thread.

[HUNTSALOT]

Originally posted by TrX450rKiD
Nope, he knows him. He also doesn't have to do anything to his engines, he doesn't know how so he just "pays someone to do that." :rolleyes:

I said right from the beginning that I got those from the company selling the pistons, not once did I say I weighed them. Luda was the one that weighed the pistons you listed too!
And where were they weighed at? why dont you ask before you open your mouth. Secound who do I pay to work on my bike? Who works on jjk bike? If you know the answer to these let me know kid. And chad 502 I never said I was JJK.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by HUNTSALOT
And chad 502 I never said I was JJK.

HUNTS, relax I was just wondering if you were him. It's ok.:ermm:


one thing that is rather strange to me is that the first batch of piston are sold out but there hasn't been any reports of the performance for weeks now :confused: Maybe, the move across country has something to do with not supplying the customers the proper ring gap specs so nobody could install the piston until they felt confortable with the ring gap,.. IDK I bet that was aggravating to have a state-of-the-art piston and not being able to install the piece until one person re-appeared in the lime light again to answer everyones concerns...

[HUNTSALOT]

Im cool chad:D I dont think they have the right ring gaps yet from what I have been reading.

[#1speedbump]

Originally posted by HUNTSALOT
And where were they weighed at? why dont you ask before you open your mouth. Secound who do I pay to work on my bike? Who works on jjk bike? If you know the answer to these let me know kid. And chad 502 I never said I was JJK.

Steve polk @ Pinnet is the guy who has helped JJK. I have spoken with Steve several times seems to be a very knowlegable person.

[HUNTSALOT]

Originally posted by #1speedbump
Steve polk @ Pinnet is the guy who has helped JJK. I have spoken with Steve several times seems to be a very knowlegable person.

I know that Pinnet is who helped jjk and pinnet knows his $hit. jjk bike kicks *****.

[chad502ex]

for the ppl that havn't been clued in on the piston- here's a couple of snaps.

[chad502ex]

side

[Blown 331]

Honest question so no flaming. I'm considering one but where is the proof that these pistons are better, other than the guy who makes them says so? I think I'm going with an ESR 480. I don't like the general vib of this whole thing.
All I ever see is these pistons are the best, but nothing to back it up. Just a bunch of specs.

[kgbg]

This is ridiculous, so ridiculouc I can't even figure out why I am replying.....
Let me clarify a few things.....
1)The Hammer Hedz is a CP piston.
2)Steel is not steel, and having wall thickness measuremenst tells you only that. Nothing about what that steel is.
3) JE Will not (at least for me or a few I know that have tried) make pistons with this much custom work on them, thats not anything bad with JE, I like them alot, just a fact. There is so much going on this piston over the Sparks JE piston, you need to ask why the pricing is so close. (lateral gas ports, nitride rings, under dome milling, lightweight wrist pin, oversized valve clearance, deeper valve refleifs, and patent pending piston top design to aid scavenging)
4) The 97 mm bore is lighter because on a larger bore, less dome is needed to raise the compression.
5) Huntsalot is hunting for a flame war.
6) JJK is above being dragged into this type of banter. He is a freind of mine, and he would not like the insinuation that his Sparks stuff was the reason he won 4sw. I was there with him when Curtis came up to him after he spanked his lightweight YFZ and tried to get JJK to run his carb, JJK gleefully told him 'Not interested, I just beat your bike with MY CARB." If sparks piston and HMF pipes is what won 4SW, how come JJK won and not the others with that combination?
7) Hunstalot, if you hate the org so much, why do you waste your time there?

[cals400ex]

Originally posted by chad502ex
just curious why the stock bore "smaller" HH piston with lower CR would weigh more than "Bigger" 480cc higher CR HH piston?


i asked mixxer the same thing. :D


he just said a smaller dome was needed to give higher compression on the larger bores.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by cals400ex
i asked mixxer the same thing. :D


he just said a smaller dome was needed to give higher compression on the larger bores.

thanks cal400ex, KAM reminded me of that in his nastiness

[370kingR]

Very well said KGB.

I just think this thread was not posted to help anyone here at atv riders. Helpful posts include all aspects, pros and cons of a product regardless of who makes it.

I wish people would get off Mixxers back for a change. I like John, i like KGB, i like Chad. My post was not to slander anyone but to try to help better inform and i feel Kam did a very good job in doing so.

Peace to you all :)



Originally posted by kgbg
This is ridiculous, so ridiculouc I can't even figure out why I am replying.....
Let me clarify a few things.....
1)The Hammer Hedz is a CP piston.
2)Steel is not steel, and having wall thickness measuremenst tells you only that. Nothing about what that steel is.
3) JE Will not (at least for me or a few I know that have tried) make pistons with this much custom work on them, thats not anything bad with JE, I like them alot, just a fact. There is so much going on this piston over the Sparks JE piston, you need to ask why the pricing is so close. (lateral gas ports, nitride rings, under dome milling, lightweight wrist pin, oversized valve clearance, deeper valve refleifs, and patent pending piston top design to aid scavenging)
4) The 97 mm bore is lighter because on a larger bore, less dome is needed to raise the compression.
5) Huntsalot is hunting for a flame war.
6) JJK is above being dragged into this type of banter. He is a freind of mine, and he would not like the insinuation that his Sparks stuff was the reason he won 4sw. I was there with him when Curtis came up to him after he spanked his lightweight YFZ and tried to get JJK to run his carb, JJK gleefully told him 'Not interested, I just beat your bike with MY CARB." If sparks piston and HMF pipes is what won 4SW, how come JJK won and not the others with that combination?
7) Hunstalot, if you hate the org so much, why do you waste your time there?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 370kingR
I wish people would get off Mixxers back for a change. I like John, i like KGB, i like Chad.

Thanks Gary. Your well liked too around here. I know you have a preferred forum for information, but I wish you spent a bit more time around here offering your input and playing peace-keeper ;).. Oh well, maybe later,...

Anyway, just to explain my perspective i thought the first words "This is ridiculous, so ridiculouc I can't even figure out why I am replying..... was a bit harse to start presenting the list of facts about the piston. Came across a bit defensive, aggressive and a bit nasty to me and possibly others. Then, to start a name call'n fest? Kam aught to stop being a jerk before this continues and ppl start gett'n banned

As Gary would say "PEACE"

[370kingR]

I gota tell you Chad, ive been learning alot around here lately. I have been very impressed to say the least with the guest speaker Dan Lamey as well as your input.

Keep it up ;)

[chad502ex]

Thanks Gary. I appreciate your honest input. My focus is to help Harlen and the members here with all that I can offer them without the BS that use to come about before,... :confused:
I enjoy helping others and explaining the obstacles involved in big bore Thumpers! I know you feel the same fever. I think over the next few months you'll start to see this site booming with technical information that members will be flooded trying to absorb. Trust me, if being "in the know" is what drives you, you'll be seeing that for sure,....

Thus far, I have to admit that i like what I see with the HH. These pistons do seems to incluse all the absent features that "shelf" pistons dont include. The only thing that worries me right now about these HH, until field proven (and no reports yet), is not its detailed features, but the materials being used (ie forging and wrist pin). What i really mean is the forging process and the thin walled wrist pin concerns that i have. Precise forging is extremely critical to sound piston design that can take the lengthy pounding of high hp setups (like JE can), and the thin walled wrist pin to me is only really only meant to save a few grams of weight,... The jury is out on longevity, but the vote is in on looks and features.

[kgbg]

I said it was ridiculous because of the constant .org bashing and talk of censoring blah blah blah.
I apologize for calling you Chucky.
From my perspective it was "a bit defensive, aggressive and a bit nasty to me and possibly others" , being called nasty.
Two way street, you see.
Its a good piston, it has all the bells and whistles, and when it holds up its a sure winner.

[devil6]

Originally posted by kgbg
This is ridiculous, so ridiculouc I can't even figure out why I am replying.....
Let me clarify a few things.....
1)The Hammer Hedz is a CP piston.
2)Steel is not steel, and having wall thickness measuremenst tells you only that. Nothing about what that steel is.
3) JE Will not (at least for me or a few I know that have tried) make pistons with this much custom work on them, thats not anything bad with JE, I like them alot, just a fact. There is so much going on this piston over the Sparks JE piston, you need to ask why the pricing is so close. (lateral gas ports, nitride rings, under dome milling, lightweight wrist pin, oversized valve clearance, deeper valve refleifs, and patent pending piston top design to aid scavenging)
4) The 97 mm bore is lighter because on a larger bore, less dome is needed to raise the compression.
5) Huntsalot is hunting for a flame war.
6) JJK is above being dragged into this type of banter. He is a freind of mine, and he would not like the insinuation that his Sparks stuff was the reason he won 4sw. I was there with him when Curtis came up to him after he spanked his lightweight YFZ and tried to get JJK to run his carb, JJK gleefully told him 'Not interested, I just beat your bike with MY CARB." If sparks piston and HMF pipes is what won 4SW, how come JJK won and not the others with that combination?
7) Hunstalot, if you hate the org so much, why do you waste your time there?

I couldn't agree more. Huntsalot has started, and had closed, 2 threads at .org in the last week. He is out simply to discredit mixxer for some unknown reason, period. Mixxer is a major contributor to .org, along with several others, and knows his stuff just as well as any of the techs over here. How would the techs here like it if any and all info they posted was ripped apart and scrutinized in the way john's is? The guy cant post what his perfered toilet paper is without someone callin bull**** on him.

If there is a concern about the pistons and wristpins, wait till some guys run them for a bit. John talked the design over with CP quite extensively before choosing the design he did. Time will tell.

In the meantime, SPARKS RULZ!!!:rolleyes: :macho :huh

Hardy har har.

:devil:

[HUNTSALOT]

All I posted was the weights on the pistons for all of you that did not like me posting the weights sorry. I own both pistons just bought both of them dont own anything more of sparks or vcp stuff. I did not close the threads on .org I did flame mixxer just to prove a point because .org flames sparks so bad and if you all read my thread at .org I said evrything I said about Mixxer was bs just wanted to prove a point that they can flame sparks or anyone else. What did .org do they kicked me off there site and I am ok with that I can keep on living. But there is only one way there. And I never said mixxer piston was crap all I posted was weights of the piston and posted that I talked to JE about a lighter wrist pin for the sparks since they make it for him and they said not to do it. So what did I do that was so bad. And If you read my post about jjk I said his whole combo did kicked *** not just one thing or it was just the sparks piston.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 86atc250r


:D

[chad502ex]

now, let's get back to the thread topic.

I went back in this thread to check the pistons wrist pin oil channeling. Maybe, it's the angle, but it doesn't appear that this HH piston has any wrist pin oil channeling. Very bad if that is the case.

[86atc250r]

With as close an eye as you keep on the .org I'm surprised you missed this:


i just noticed that the athena piston doesn't have any pin oiling channels


neither did the wiseco piston i have in zonker now...... hell, i can't approve of that


extra oil to the top of the rod\pin area is a GOOD thing to prevent galling, actually it is the only thing that will prevent galling!!

the HammerHedz have DOUBLE FORCED PIN OIL CHANNELS AND A HALF GROOVE TO DISPERSE IT WITHIN THE PIN BORE......

all is good

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 86atc250r
With as close an eye as you keep on the .org I'm surprised you missed this:

now Gabe, how could i keep a close eye if i'm banned?

I still see no channels, half groove or oil holes either in the pin bore..

[86atc250r]

I don't know, sure seems odd that you'd know I was talking about EFI if you weren't lurking though, doesn't it. Ahh, the games we play.....

You do know where the channels and holes generally are, and why they're where they are, don't you? If so, you'd know why you can't see them.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 86atc250r
I don't know, sure seems odd that you'd know I was talking about EFI if you weren't lurking though, doesn't it. Ahh, the games we play.....

You do know where the channels and holes generally are, and why they're where they are, don't you? If so, you'd know why you can't see them.

yes on top, but not everyone knows that gabe.

[86atc250r]

Very good, you know why? Quick, and no cheating with google.

[chad502ex]

closest to rails

[370kingR]

480 hammerhedz piston

[370kingR]

sorry for these incredibly blurry pictures

[86atc250r]

The answer I was looking for:

Because oil is scraped from the cylinder on the piston's down stroke and forced through the holes we see in the side of the piston, and channelled down to the top side of the wrist pin bore.

Why can't you see them in the pic you posted? Well, because you can't see the top half of the wristpin bore, silly.

370 provided pics that display their existance and location.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 370kingR
480 hammerhedz piston

ahh, thanks Gary for your help.

Rather nice. half mooned groove and "FORCED" oil holes from rails too! that should help with the 120 wall'd pin.

[wvspeedfreak]

This is a very interesting topic (hammerhedz pistons that is),keep the info coming.That is one wicked looking piston.

[mikes450r]

Originally posted by chad502ex
:huh
isn't thats what i said earlier that is wasn't visible in the picture i posted?

my "shelf piston" is almost identical to this,...

i wanna see...got a pic chad...:)

[370kingR]

There is definetly more than meets the naked eye to this piston. It is no doubt a pretty bad ahss piston. We need to get some time in on them and also do a dyno stint. Im a believer of that piston. I do think it is top notch and it will make a difference for the better.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 86atc250r
Why can't you see them in the pic you posted? Well, because you can't see the top half of the wristpin bore, silly.

:huh
isn't thats what i said earlier that is wasn't visible in the picture i posted?

my JE oval ultra-light at 330grams "shelf piston" has almost identical wrist oiling,..


But, yes, the HH looks real impressive

[370kingR]

The very best thing that i took from you two going at it was that those oil gally's go on the top and closest to the support rails. Darn good info i never knew. So shake hands on teaching me something :D

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 370kingR
The very best thing that i took from you two going at it was that those oil gally's go on the top and closest to the support rails. Darn good info i never knew. So shake hands on teaching me something :D

Gary, that's what it's all about- teaching everyone in and out of the know.

[370kingR]

Originally posted by chad502ex
:huh
isn't thats what i said earlier that is wasn't visible in the picture i posted?

my JE oval ultra-light at 330grams "shelf piston" has almost identical wrist oiling,..


But, yes, the HH looks real impressive

Chad, i gotta tell you, there is several things i can point out that is different about that HH just from sitting and staring at it for a half hour

[mikes450r]

chad is that total weight with the pins and rings and all..or just the piston

mike

[370kingR]

Im not sure if im not seeing that properly but i see only one oil hole to that gally. If im wrong please correct me.

Im not sure if i can say this correctly but...

They machined the compression ring groove with an additional half groove above it (no partition between them) to have 360 degrees of feed for the holes that force the ring against the cylinder wall for a tight seal. I forget what they call that, perhaps you guys can give the proper term for that....

There is machining all over this thing to reduce weight.

Still thinking......

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 370kingR
Chad, i gotta tell you, there is several things i can point out that is different about that HH just from sitting and staring at it for a half hour

yea, i can see too. It looks nice. It will be nice when these HH are offered in larger bores (bigger than 480).

mike, the custom oval ultra light weighing 330 grams was piston only, not full package.

in case you wonder why oval, it's cause the oval becomes circular when it comes up to temp.

[370kingR]

Originally posted by chad502ex
:huh
isn't thats what i said earlier that is wasn't visible in the picture i posted?

my JE oval ultra-light at 330grams "shelf piston" has almost identical wrist oiling,..


But, yes, the HH looks real impressive


WOW 330 grams. Dam that is light. Thats the 98mm 530 piston too right? That must be without the wrost pin.

[Pappy]

fellers, i had this thread reported and i cleaned up the majority of the bashing.

you guys can chat pistons until the cylinder wall wears out, but leave the bashing and cross site BS someplace other then here please. i tried to edit it, sorry if i didnt catch something that will send someone off thier rocker, it wasnt intentional.

back to a cylindrical talk:huh

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 370kingR
WOW 330 grams. Dam that is light. Thats the 98mm 530 piston too right? That must be without the wrost pin.

yea, its light for shelf pistons considering it was the 99mm version ;) without the pin ans rings.

I bet you wish those HH were in 101mm, right 370?

[370kingR]

Originally posted by chad502ex
yea, its light for shelf pistons considering it was the 99mm version ;) without the pin ans rings.

I bet you wish those HH were in 101mm, right 370?

LOL...yea 101mm.....heck why stop there how about 103mm?


I got two of these 480 pistons. Im building one for a racing buddy, ill send you the other one with the cam ;)

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 370kingR
LOL...yea 101mm.....heck why stop there how about 103mm?


I got two of these 480 pistons. Im building one for a racing buddy, ill send you the other one with the cam ;)

103?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 370kingR
Im not sure if im not seeing that properly but i see only one oil hole to that gally. If im wrong please correct me.

two to one per side

[370kingR]

Originally posted by chad502ex
two to one per side


Yea there are two holes per side, a total of 4 in the HH.