250rvs450's

[yeap66]

my question has proubly been asked a few million times but can a slightly modded R keep up with the new 450's like on an mx track considering all teh riders were same ability thanks
vinny t

[Eddiesanders250]

o yes they can:)

[ZRider400]

it can, and will if your a good rider..

[cbennett86250r]

definetly.. i have a friend taht bought an 04 trx450.. he couldnt come around me in teh straight aways in my fields..

...needless to say.. he was angered :D

[ground_zero298]

I have a 89 250r stock accept pipe/silencer and geared down. I have not had a stock 450 beat me yet.

[MR.BIG]

Originally posted by ground_zero298
I have a 89 250r stock accept pipe/silencer and geared down. I have not had a stock 450 beat me yet.

I think you need to race someone with equal skill as you because then the results would probably be different.

[baker250r]

Originally posted by MR.BIG
I think you need to race someone with equal skill as you because then the results would probably be different.

im with MR.BIG on this one....

[sgerbyshak]

my 330r would crush my 450r all day any day...not even close

[ground_zero298]

I'm not saying i have the fastest bike in the world, not even close but I have not seen the back end of a 450 yet. If you can't ride it right you shouldn't be racing people on 250r's anyway. Or maybe it could be the 450 has too much torque for runnin sand. Never lined up on the black top yet. I know theirs 450 capable of beating my bike but any way it just feels good to crush some yuppies 7000 bike.

[Eddiesanders250]

ya i agree. i have a stock 89 sept for filter pipe and reeds. im 13 and running with these olser guys on 450s.

[baker250r]

do they give u a head start? :eek2:

[ground_zero298]

hell, they can't keep up off the line. It's all about the tires. The secret weapon out where we ride is spiders. It usually goes smokem off the line they catch up through the middle, then finish them off in 6th.

[Eddiesanders250]

Originally posted by baker250r
do they give u a head start? :eek2:


hahahaha no

[MR.BIG]

Originally posted by sgerbyshak
my 330r would crush my 450r all day any day...not even close

I would hope so!Put the same amout of money into a 450r that you put into your 330r and then see what happens.

[nacs400ex]

2-strokes respond to mods way better then 4-strokes. So yes, I would imagine a 250r would still stomp a 450, even if the same amount of money is sunk into either or. You dont need your hardened rockers, cams, stronger chains, valves and such on a 2-stroke, also saving a considerable amount of money.

Plus take into consider how much cheaper you can get 250rs for compared to 450rs. Put that money into the motor and the 450s are toast.

Anyone who actually owns/owned a 250r, will tell you its cheaper to make a 250r go faster then ANY 4-stroke. If you properly maintain it, its gunna last just as long too.

[Iliketogofast]

Let me add that parts tend to be more expensive for a four stroke, anyway. Even the pipes and such are more expensive. Plus, like said above, you also need to harden your rocker arms, get a bigger lift cam, better valves, blah blah blah... Pain in the ***. Simplicity kills complication. You have to have more parts, more motor, and therefore more weight. Size for size, a two stroke engine will demolish any four stroke. Any two stroke engine. Like I said in another post... There are only two advantages a four stroke has over a two stroke. 1. They are hippy friendly. 2. They last longer in general, with less maintenance. So... If you're lazy, and worried about killing a couple trees, then four strokes are the way for you. If you don't care about trees, or working on your quad, or if you just don't mind hauling some ***, two strokes are always there...

[yeap66]

yea cuase i might be sellin my 450 and buying a 250 cuase then i would have al ittle money left over to buy a cheap car and some parts. i'm still gonna race but it well proubly be on a 2 stroke instead lol thanks
vinny t

[Blown 331]

I have an 86 ATC250R with ESR pipe, Wiseco piston, .010 thick head gasket, 36mm flat slide, Boyesen rad valve, UNI filter, no air box lid. and a 450R with a pipe and HRC kit, still has a stock filter. The 450 crushes it.
I was going to go with an ESR 330 kit to remedy this problem but I'm thinking an Nmotion 520R kit for the 450, big bore for the 4-stroke costs less than a 2 stroke so I dont want to hear about the dollars. Who cares anyway it's only money. I've been trying for 6 months to get my 250R to beat my buddy's 450R and I haven't got it yet and I spent more money on my 250R than he spent on his 450R (aftermarket parts, not purchase price)
And if you guys are racing against stock 450's you gotta understand how horrible choked they are from the factory. They have a 118 main jet and suck air in through a hole the size of a quarter. If you just take the air box lid off you have to bump up to a 185 main, that should tell you how restricted it is.

[Iliketogofast]

It's probably because you don't know what the hell you're doing, you're just buying parts and having them slapped on without even knowing what it does.

[Blown 331]

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
It's probably because you don't know what the hell you're doing, you're just buying parts and having them slapped on without even knowing what it does.

Well what do you suggest I do? I called ESR and they said either o-ring the cylinder so I can ditch the head gasket and have the cylinder ported or get a 310 kit. I guess you know more that ESR. I dont think a 250R with an untouched cylinder can take a cam/pipe 450R at all. My buddy has a TRX250R with tons done to the motor, professional, that one gets beat too.

[MR.BIG]

Some people on here probably haven't even rode a 450r. In stock form they are sluggish but they will still beat a 250r. You would have to port and polish the cylinder, Pipe,carb,reed cage just to be able to run with a cam and piped 450r. That is way more expensive then cam and piping a 450r. Don't get me wrong I love 250r's but they are not untouchable anymore.

[Iliketogofast]

Let me raise a hand and say I've ridden both the YFZ and the 450R. They both had lots of mods, 450R had a cam, pipe, filter, blah blah blah, YFZ was set up for MX. I was somewhat impressed with the YFZ, but not the Honda. I guess not enough money spent on it ;)

[Blown 331]

Wow, I'm done. There is no hope for you.

Let see here the 450 quads have detuned versions of the motocross bike motors. It's not hard to get the quad equal to the bike (450R needs a pison, they lowered the compression).
The CRF & YZF(bike) can easly handle a 2005 CR250 or 2005 YZ250. You have a similar motor to a 1985 CR250. So when you say you're unimpressed that just doesn't make any sense unless a 1985 CR250 is faster than a 2005 CR250.

I'm not saying the 250R doenst have potential or can't be fast but saying you're unimpressed with a modded 450 doesn't make sense especially when it's faster than what you're riding. I don't believe you rode a 450 with the mods you say.

Plus the 2 450's you listed should be about equal, step away from the Dirt Wheels mag.

[MR.BIG]

Originally posted by Blown 331
Wow, I'm done. There is no hope for you.

Let see here the 450 quads have detuned versions of the motocross bike motors. It's not hard to get the quad equal to the bike (450R needs a pison, they lowered the compression).
The CRF & YZF(bike) can easly handle a 2005 CR250 or 2005 YZ250. You have a similar motor to a 1985 CR250. So when you say you're unimpressed that just doesn't make any sense unless a 1985 CR250 is faster than a 2005 CR250.

I'm not saying the 250R doenst have potential or can't be fast but saying you're unimpressed with a modded 450 doesn't make sense especially when it's faster than what you're riding. I don't believe you rode a 450 with the mods you say.

Plus the 2 450's you listed should be about equal, step away from the Dirt Wheels mag.

YEAH BUDDY! LOL

[bwamos]

Originally posted by Blown 331
I'm not saying the 250R doenst have potential or can't be fast but saying you're unimpressed with a modded 450 doesn't make sense especially when it's faster than what you're riding. I don't believe you rode a 450 with the mods you say.

Question is.. have you ever ridden a 250r? Let alone a modded 310+ w/ powervalve? (cheaper than basic 4-stroke engine work)

FYI.. replacing the Jug makes it a modern 2-stroke.

I've ridden both plenty. I'd have to agree that the 250r would still be the king of the track if they were allowed. Not to mention they weigh a lot less.

The 4 vs 2 will be a debate for a long time.. lol. 10 years ago there were stories about people smoking 250r's and Banshees on their 300ex's, 250x's and Warriors.

I'd personally like to see a water-cooled 300cc 3-rotor rotary engine w/ multi-port fuel injectionon an ATV. ;)

[450r51]

thank you blown131, u shut that cocky kid up, and we all know yamaha pays dirtwheels alot more then honda does, thats y the yammies always win, ask anypro or rider, there the SAME bike, just set up differently!

[Blown 331]

Originally posted by bwamos
Question is.. have you ever ridden a 250r? Let alone a modded 310+ w/ powervalve? (cheaper than basic 4-stroke engine work)

FYI.. replacing the Jug makes it a modern 2-stroke.

I've ridden both plenty. I'd have to agree that the 250r would still be the king of the track if they were allowed. Not to mention they weigh a lot less.

The 4 vs 2 will be a debate for a long time.. lol. 10 years ago there were stories about people smoking 250r's and Banshees on their 300ex's, 250x's and Warriors.

I'd personally like to see a water-cooled 300cc 3-rotor rotary engine w/ multi-port fuel injectionon an ATV. ;)

I have a 250R 3-wheeler, my buddy has a TRX250R at my house with lots of work but still a stock jug (ported). We each have a pipe/cam 450R and modded 250R's. Our 450's are faster than both of our 250's. We own both and I'm just stating which is faster, nothing more. I never thought of replacing the jug making it a modern 2 stroke. I have never ridden one with an aftermarket cylinder. I agree with everything you said except the price for the cylinder. Call ESR, a big bore for a 250R cost twice as much as a big bore for a 450R. Yes if you get into bigger valves the 450 will cost more but it's still not that bad. I don't see price as an issue.

[Iliketogofast]

thank you blown131, u shut that cocky kid up, and we all know yamaha pays dirtwheels alot more then honda does, thats y the yammies always win, ask anypro or rider, there the SAME bike, just set up differently! It's two different motors. The Yamaha has 2 cams I believe, if I cared I would know for sure. Anyway, I quit, because it's not worth it. Not everybody has to know that my bike is faster than a 450, the only person it matters to is me. And I'm not going to fight over it, because the only way I could get anything through to you idiots is if I spanked your asses on a track.

[250r4life]

man, i guess i can understand where these 450 4 stroke guys are coming from... i guess we should be more understanding... imagine this, 1st you go off and spend close to 7K just to buy a new quad. Then you go and buy a pipe and various other mods, and before you know it you're into your 4 stroke more than 9 grand... then you show up to race and all these 16 year old 250r just waste you in a race... i imagine that would be pretty frustrating and i can imiagine why they have a bitterness for 250rs... i have ridden both 450s, and although i did like the YZ better, i'd take my R over both of them... when my 250r was just stock with pipe and filter i would beat the 450r with pipe and filter... the piped yz450 would depend on the racer and the hill... now with the 265 kit i smoke em both, and still have a couple grand to spend to reach the original stock 450 cost...

[Iliketogofast]

Amen.

[Iliketogofast]

Blown, I just read your post again and I'm sorry but you're full of ****. I'm suprised your fingers aren't too bloated to type you're so full of ****. Do you have brown eyes, too? No 250R with professional motor work will get beaten by a simple pipe/cam 450. Sorry.

[MR.BIG]

Originally posted by 250r4life
i have ridden both 450s, and although i did like the YZ better, i'd take my R over both of them... when my 250r was just stock with pipe and filter i would beat the 450r with pipe and filter... the piped yz450 would depend on the racer and the hill... now with the 265 kit i smoke em both, and still have a couple grand to spend to reach the original stock 450 cost... [/B]

Dude you are living in a fantasy land. A 250r with a pipe and filter is not even going to touch a 450r. This is not even worth arguing about. I guarantee you my 450r with the simple mods it has can run with your 250r the way it is if not beat you. I have had many 250r's which I use to race and they are quick but they are not up to par with the new 450's unless you are running a 350pv motor.

[250r4life]

ha ha ha- if it isnt worth arguing about then why are you arguing about it? :D you can say what you want... i know a lot depends on the rider and how well dialed in you have your bike... when my bike was stock with pipe and filter i had it dialed in perfect and it screamed pretty good, and i'll repeat i'd beat piped 450rs on the hill. like i said the piped yfzs were a little harder and with a good rider sometimes they'd get me... but not since i put in the 265 kit. i've done some mods to the cylinder and a few odds and ends here and there, and i've got it dialed in and it screams... i'm 170 lbs and know how to ride, and i ride the best bike ever built... bring your 450r down to Glamis and we'll have it out on the hill and see :D the 250r is still the best bike Honda ever made, and actually the best bike anybody ever made... its a shame that somebody who once rode the chosen and elite quad has converted to a lesser one

[MR.BIG]

Originally posted by 250r4life
ha ha ha- if it isnt worth arguing about then why are you arguing about it? :D you can say what you want... i know a lot depends on the rider and how well dialed in you have your bike... when my bike was stock with pipe and filter i had it dialed in perfect and it screamed pretty good, and i'll repeat i'd beat piped 450rs on the hill. like i said the piped yfzs were a little harder and with a good rider sometimes they'd get me... but not since i put in the 265 kit. i've done some mods to the cylinder and a few odds and ends here and there, and i've got it dialed in and it screams... i'm 170 lbs and know how to ride, and i ride the best bike ever built... bring your 450r down to Glamis and we'll have it out on the hill and see :D the 250r is still the best bike Honda ever made, and actually the best bike anybody ever made... its a shame that somebody who once rode the chosen and elite quad has converted to a lesser one

Let me put it this way. The 250r is the best machine ever made
(2 Stroke)! Why did I get a 450r well it is simple. I would not pay $5000 for a 250r. The 450r is the new generation I am not saying it is better than a 250r because they are a lot different. In my opinion I do like the 450r better. So I take it you don't like the 450r's! Why? Like you said a lot does depend on the rider but I have not had a problem beating 265's and 310r's maybe I am a better rider. I have no reason to BS anyone if I could pick up a 250r for a decent price I would love to have one but I still like the 450r better.

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by Blown 331
I've been trying for 6 months to get my 250R to beat my buddy's 450R and I haven't got it yet and I spent more money on my 250R than he spent on his 450R (aftermarket parts, not purchase price)

What type of racing are we talking about, here? If it's MX or woods, the ATC has a natural handicap, but it we're talking top speed or a flat-out drag race, that ATC should kill that 450.

I'm not one of these idiot kids barely above functional retard, talking a bunch of BS because I overheard my brother's friend's uncle say the 250r is faster than a 450r.

My reputation is known on here, I know my stuff. I'm telling you, something is not right about your scenario.

I see this one of two ways. Either you are completely biased towards the 450, and in complete denial that any 20yr old motor can be made to beat it, or you don't know exactly what you are talking about, or how to properly mod your ATC to make it fast. No offense, if you don't know then you don't know, but that doesn't change the fact that you're wrong. With less than $1000 I can easily get an ATC250R to beat any 450 in a sand drag.

[Iliketogofast]

What he says is always right so everybody else might as well just shut up :D

[MR.BIG]

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
What he says is always right so everybody else might as well just shut up :D
Who are you talking to!

[Iliketogofast]

:huh: Everybody.

[MR.BIG]

I have to say you egg people on, look at your sig!

[ground_zero298]

My mom would knock you mom out

[ground_zero298]

The way you guys are going at it you should move to the 4x4 forum. I don't think thiers any 450 or 250 with the power to get out of all the bs. I can barely see the bars on my bike.

[Iliketogofast]

Oh yeah?? My mum gives better kisses!

[250r4life]

1st of all, where did any ATC come into the mix... i seemed to have missed that one... i never said i didnt like the 450s... i think they are pretty good bikes to tell you the truth. would i prefer them over the real R, no, but i do think they are good bikes... even though im a honda guy, i do have to say that i like the yamaha 450 better than the trx450r... but yah, i'd buy a yfz450 for my wife, and wouldnt mind having one as a back up... but i would not prefer one over my R at all... to each his own... ive got buddies with 450s and raptors, and although they keep up just fine when were duning, when you ride the 4 strokes it doesnt feel near as fast as a 2 stroke, which is a lot of the fun factor... i love that powerband hit that the 4 strokes dont have... i dunno, maybe one day when i'm fat and old i'll get a 4 stroke... nah- probably not :devil:

[Blown 331]

I'm just stating I own a 250R and a 450R. The 250R is a 3-wheeler so it is lighter and it has more mods than my 450 but it is still slower. I'm talking straight line drag racing on pavement. That is a fact. I own both bikes, I'm not biased. I probably ride the 250R more, cause it has 3-wheels. I'm not biased towards either one, just stating which is faster and I know other people with 250R's as well. If you can tell me how to make my 250R beat my 450 tell me, because I'm interested, I want to be able to do it. Is it even possible with out an aftermarket cylinder or a top end port job that makes it unrideable anywhere other than a drag? I've tired and tried I can't get it. I'm not throwing mods at it either, I've gotten advice on what to do.

And if there are any 250R's in the St. Louis area with an untouched cylinder that wanna line up with my 450 for some cash? Put up or shut up, *****es!

Edit

I will be at St. Joe State park in Flat River MO on July the 24th. I will have my 450 there on sand paddles. I'm also upping the pilot jet and have a Curts Sparks air filter on the way. I'm hauling it in my Bronco but if I can get a trailer I'm bringing my ATC250R too. We need 250R expert to show up so they can beat my 450 and tell me what is wrong with my 250R. :huh

[MR.BIG]

Wow where did all the talkers go! haha lol

[baker250r]

Originally posted by MR.BIG
Wow where did all the talkers go! haha lol

He asked for a untouched 250r cylinder..... i know many of us have alot of motor work to our's...

[Blown 331]

Originally posted by baker250r
He asked for a untouched 250r cylinder..... i know many of us have alot of motor work to our's...

And those are the ones that can beat the 450's......

[Iliketogofast]

Mine has a stock cylinder. It hasn't even been bored or resleeved.

[Blown 331]

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
Mine has a stock cylinder. It hasn't even been bored or resleeved.

Has it been ported though? Acutally I don't care. If you bring it to St. Joe state park on July 24th and beat my 450 in a drag I'll pay for your gas.

Edit.
And if you're good with 250R's and you think mine should be faster maybe you can fix it. Runs top notch though.

[250r4life]

hold onto your horses there turbo... i was asleep so i didnt reply... i hate to tell ya, but i have 4 wheels on my R, and if i wasnt half way across the country, i would shop up and smoke you and your 450... k, in most of my posts i have been referring to dragging up the various hills down at the dunes, as that is where i do most of my racing... however, back when my bike was stock piston & cylinder (and i'm talking the one Honda mounted on it 16 years ago) with a PT pipe, K&N, and rad valve, i was smoking my buddy with a trx450r with K&N and full curtis sparks exhaust... and this was on flat ground... i have no idea why you cant beat your 450 on your 250... of course when i had my 250 just stock/piped i would hand most other 250s there *** as well. of course i'm not talking the 330s and 350s... so i dont know if its just cuz your ATC250r and these other 250s have been abused for so many years that they just suck or what... i was lucky enough to pick up a 100% original bike back in 2002, original everything (even the filter) and the bike maybe had 20 hours on it... it hasnt have some idiot who didnt know anything messing around with it and its never been burnt up or seized or anything and i take great care of it and it takes great care of me, and those 450s :D

[Blown 331]

I'm not sure what the deal is. My 250R is very nice, when I bought it, it still had the stock piston as well. I did all my mods one at a time and each provided an increase in power. I'm hoping someone can help me out with this thing if you guys say it's not running to it's potential, I think it runs great though. Here's a pic.
I have ESR ATC-5 pipe, .010 thick head gasket, rad valve, UNI filter, open air box, and 36mm flat slide. It has stock original tires on and stock gearing. I think it's geared too low and I want to go up to a 14 tooth front sprocket.

[Iliketogofast]

It's geared too low go up. You need to port it to match the pipe and you will smash your 450

[wilkin250r]

The 450s, whether yammi or honda, are both very nice motors, and very powerful. A stock 250r motor, regardless of pipe and/or carb isn't going to be able to beat the 450.

However, the real strength of the 250r motor is not in it's stock form. The real advantage is in the potential hidden inside the motor, and the simplicity in extracting that power.

Blown, if you want to beat the 450, you have to get ported and head mods. You don't necessarily need a top-end ripper, a good midrange should give you a significant power increase, and you can still use the ATC-5 pipe, which will save costs. If your piston is in good shape, you can probably even still use that, just replace the rings and hone the cylinder. A good port job and head mods should run around $400.

A midrange port job should do it, and still easily be ridable. Have you ever talked to a professional engine builder about your options?

[yamablaster24]

go to the MX track. you may see 2 or 3 250r's for every 30 or 40 450's. ive beaten 250r's that were worked on my frekin blaster for god sakes in the open class at sandusky speedway. if any of you guys want to race my 450 on the track let me know ill be racing production and 4-stroke b cllass at nationals.

[ground_zero298]

Now people with blasters are in the 250 forum? well what do you know I guess 250r's are now officaly the slowest machines on earth.

[ground_zero298]

well yamablaster24 since you have raced both, which in your unbias opinion that all people that ride honda's are retards, do you believe is faster?

[450r51]

i highly doubt a blaster(the worst quad ever made) can beat a 250r. now im a die hard 450r fan and theres no way a blaster can beat a stroked 250r or ne 250r. the only way it can beat them is if the rider of the 250r ha no legs, no arms, and no eyes. making him one big *** torso.

Originally posted by ground_zero298
Now people with blasters are in the 250 forum? well what do you know I guess 250r's are now officaly the slowest machines on earth.

Probably for those that have little to know tuning skills :)

[250r4life]

does anybody who rides a blaster and claims to beat Rs even deserve to be responded to? now really, come on now...

[MR.BIG]

Holy crap we agree on something!Cool

[250r4life]

:D its true... like ive said in the other 450 discussion, the 450s deserve respect... however, anybody talking about a blaster or 300ex or anything crazy like that doesnt even deserve to be responded to... the day i get beat by a blaster is the day i take the lid off my gas tank, throw a match in there, and walk away from quads forever...

[woodsman250r]

Drag racing in the sand dunes is not racing. Just because your aftermarket 250r will beat a 450 in a drag does not mean they are faster in general. Last time I checked they dont' have a GNDRC (Grand National Drag Racing Championship) but when they do I am sure you guys will be first to race. The 450's today are worlds better than the 250R's. Not saying the 250r is bad but its 1986 technology in 2005. MX, TT, and the GNCC's are real racing, people who ride in the dunes and drag race should not put their 2 cents in on whats faster because in reality they don't know.

[250r4life]

ha ha ha ha... youre so full of crap, and people who write ignorant responses like you should not be aloud to post.. do i dune and drag at the dunes? heck yes, and i smoke a lot of people. but do i also ride from march to october when nobody is at the dunes, and also on weekends during october to march when i cant make it down to the dunes, heck yes... if you'll notice we were saying the bikes themselves being faster than others.... well, i hate to tell ya, but on the track and woods and etc, the outcome depends a whole lot more on the rider than it does on the bike... i race at the track, i ride the woods and the desert, and etc... and i will smoke most people in each of em... the dunes however, although it does depend a lot on the rider, depends less on rider and more on bike, and so i use the dragging the hill at the dunes for my comparison... when it all boils down to it, "I" will outride most people, does it help that i have a great bike, yes, but put me on an identical bike and and i'll hold my own with most people... and no im not one of those guys who just drag and set my bike up just for dragging... ive got my bike set up where i can do anything, and althgough i love dragging, a very aggressive and fast paced trail ride is what i live for... man, back to this argument... 100% stock, the 450s will definately beat a 100% R. however, doing "reasonable" mods to each, the 250r will quickly close the gap and take the lead...

[woodsman250r]

OK I definatly didn't go out to start a war. I owned and RACED a 250R for 4 years. It was moded to the extreme for XC and had a hard time keeping with 450's. I recently got an 05' 450R and I will have to say that in stock form it is better than my tricked out R. My lap times also have greatly decreased. It is different to say you smoked someone in a leasure ride compared to smoking someone in a sanctioned race. Going head to head in the sand dunes is a joke and people who state that a particular bike is fast because they beat someone in a drag race is not being realistic. Like I said, keeping praying for the GNDRC. Two strokes can't run with 4 strokes, but maybe we can have RC and Bubba do a drag race in the dunes to see if a 250 or 450 is better, that would be a true test :rolleyes:

[ground_zero298]

yeah a fully modded 250r has no chance agains stock 450r. Dude send me some of the stuff your smokin. because I'm gonna need some to believe this BS..

[Hoppedrap]

Did anybody catch the article in either dirtwheels or one of the the other publications with Gary Denton. These aren't his exact words but here goes " give me a 250R and some traction and he will smoke all these newer bikes".

[ESR250R]

Originally posted by woodsman250r
OK I definatly didn't go out to start a war. I owned and RACED a 250R for 4 years. It was moded to the extreme for XC and had a hard time keeping with 450's. I recently got an 05' 450R and I will have to say that in stock form it is better than my tricked out R. My lap times also have greatly decreased. It is different to say you smoked someone in a leasure ride compared to smoking someone in a sanctioned race. Going head to head in the sand dunes is a joke and people who state that a particular bike is fast because they beat someone in a drag race is not being realistic. Like I said, keeping praying for the GNDRC. Two strokes can't run with 4 strokes, but maybe we can have RC and Bubba do a drag race in the dunes to see if a 250 or 450 is better, that would be a true test :rolleyes:



you really need to learn to ride that 250r to it potential then. to say the 450r is better in stock form than a fully modded 250r is insane. i understand were alot of people see some 35 yr old guy on a 250r and say they smoke 250r's all the time at the track. but thats someone that doesnt ride the bike to its potiental. if you think that for one second the racers in production class wouldnt like to have the 250r as a choice your crazy. 250r's have moved on because of the magazines, racers being forced to give them up (pro production class), and hype. not because they dont have the power or potiental. a 06 450r or the new zuki might be in my near future but i am for sure keeping the 250r.

[woodsman250r]

Exactly, a 250R is a lot harder to ride fast than a 450. In the woods, I would rather have my 450r over the 250r any day. It hooks up better, doesn't spin as much, and doesn't wear you out near as much over a 2 hr. period. And pros were willing to part with the 250 motor. Before pro production all but like 3 guys were either riding CRF450 or YZ450 hybrids. Walking the pits a few years ago at High Point, eveyone had 250r's for sale and had hybrids sitting in their trailors. The 450r powerplant is way better for racing hands down. The 250r was and still is a great bike but does not compare to todays 450 motors. Just think of what it takes to make a 250r competitive money wise and compare it to a 450. Just because you have a 330 kit in your R and smoke a 450 doesn't mean anything. Put a big bore kit in the 450 and wave goodbye to the 330r.

[ground_zero298]

What exactly was done to your 250r?

[250r4life]

yah, a 250r does require a lot more SKILL AND BALLS & AGGRESSION to ride fast, but ive got em all to spare buddy... what'd i just say, i do more than just dune... man, you gotta be smokin crack to say a stock 450r compares to a worked 250r... like i said, stock for stoc the 450 wins, but putting a little bit (not a whole lot) of money into each of em and the story changes... man, if the 250r was so inferior i woulda bought a 450 already- ive got the money... but its not... yah you gotta ride it harder and shift more, etc.., but if youve got the skills its got the potential... the saying "4 strokes are like tampons, every ***** has one" is very appropriate... its all about your riding style, i love being balls to the wall, shifting like crazy, havin it in the REAL powerband all the time... SCREAMIN... gotta love that high pitch scream of a 2 stroke

[woodsman250r]

They are great bikes but for XC racing give me a 450. I hated shifting my bike all the time and having a powerband that just wants to wear you down quicker. I had a stock cylinder, rad valve, CR gasket, LRD pipe. Maybe it would been dif. with a powervalve. Dunes and XC are two different kinds of riding and racing a two hour race going balls to the wall with an arm ripping powerband is not realistic to finish well, you will just get beat up. I sold my R cause the motor blew up, and I couldn't be happier with the 450. And I am glad you guys still like the 250 because it is a great bike, I just don't prefer one to a 450 for XC.

[ESR250R]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by woodsman250r
[B] Walking the pits a few years ago at High Point, eveyone had 250r's for sale and had hybrids sitting in their trailors.


exactly what i am trying to say, buying into the hype. one person hybirds a 4 stroke into a new frame and does decent with it and before you know it everyone wants the new "hyped up" 4 stroke in a 250r chassis. i try to stay fair and look at both views and i will say that in a 2 hours xc race with my 250r i would be pretty fatigued about a hour into the race. but with some proper porting or powervalve and a nice lowend pipe i would say the 250r could be a very good xc quad. both motors can get the same amount of power outta them, but both have a few advantage/disadvantages that makes them very close in racing.

[beerock]

this thread is full of flaming posts and damn just to much BS.

Blown, i dont know whats wrong with your atc you should be beating the 450's you are DEFINATELY losing because of your front sprocket. put a 14 on it will make a huge difference. regardless you are really talking smack though. If you dont know the right setup to make a R fast don't you htink putting money up to race someone elses R that perhaps has the right set up is just plain stupid?

woodsman, no disrespect but dude, wtf are you talking about. 86 technology? most of the new bikes are copied off of the R geometry they havent even made it any better. Your worked motor wasnt that worked either, unless your stock cylinder was ported? To answer your question about the mx guys having hybrids in there traielr instead of R's thats because many of them wanted seat time on the 4 stroke bike beofre it completely happened. If you were getting tired off of a 2 hour race well I have two things to say about that. 1, you werent conditioned enough. 2, if you think racing is the only place that people ride all out, I invite you to come ride with me and my friends(all of which are over 30, some pushing 40) we ride HARD for more then 2 hours at a time. ON R'S .

If any of you think im talkin smack, please ask around and see what some of the people who have gotten the chance to ride with me and my buds say about how we ride. new invites who keep up we gladly invite back, the ones that dont keep up we stop and wait for and ***** about while there still riding. then when they finally catch up and are ready for a rest we start goin again. we wouldnt have stopped if they kept up.

I still think people are stll trying to tarnish the R's reputaion, if were still allowed in racing it would still be in.

[Antony250R]

First of all cc for cc two strokes are WAY more powerful.
Second the only 4 stroke that is any good is the YFZ450. Everyone that rides a YFZ450 says that it reminds them of a two stroke.
I would like to see a 450R when it is 17 years old.

[woodsman250r]

OK my name is woodsman250r, because I rode a 250r. I was diehard 250r until I finally got my 450 and compared it to MY old R. The stock motor on my R was not as good as my stock 450. Now a lot of you guys have like 330 kits or powervalves, these are not stock. Don't get me wrong if I had more money I would still have an R and put all this aftermarket stuff into it. I would love to have a powervalve bike set up for XC with good suspension. However I don't have that kind of cash to dump into that bike. A stock 450r is a great bike and I can race it in the stock class and gain points aside from running a full out race R. And yes the R is 86 technology for the most part talking about the stock motor, not a powervalve. I was giving my opinion about people saying other bikes aren't fast because they drag raced against them. And I was saying this 450r is better than my old modded 450r not YOURS. And where do you ride beerock? I train 4 days a week for racing with an open A rider in GNCCs. If you live near Ohio I would like to invite you to come ride with us. We live near Lightning Raceway and have tons of tight trails. I'm not disrespecting the R, I am saying that the 450 is not slow and for my own riding I prefer the 450. I do get tired of dune riders putting in their two cents because majority don't race and think they know it all because they ride fast in a wide open area.

[beerock]

Originally posted by woodsman250r
OK my name is woodsman250r, because I rode a 250r. I was diehard 250r until I finally got my 450 and compared it to MY old R. The stock motor on my R was not as good as my stock 450. Now a lot of you guys have like 330 kits or powervalves, these are not stock. Don't get me wrong if I had more money I would still have an R and put all this aftermarket stuff into it. I would love to have a powervalve bike set up for XC with good suspension. However I don't have that kind of cash to dump into that bike. A stock 450r is a great bike and I can race it in the stock class and gain points aside from running a full out race R. And yes the R is 86 technology for the most part talking about the stock motor, not a powervalve. I was giving my opinion about people saying other bikes aren't fast because they drag raced against them. And I was saying this 450r is better than my old modded 450r not YOURS. And where do you ride beerock? I train 4 days a week for racing with an open A rider in GNCCs. If you live near Ohio I would like to invite you to come ride with us. We live near Lightning Raceway and have tons of tight trails. I'm not disrespecting the R, I am saying that the 450 is not slow and for my own riding I prefer the 450. I do get tired of dune riders putting in their two cents because majority don't race and think they know it all because they ride fast in a wide open area.

I hear you bro, like i said no disrespect, your still wrong about a stock R motor though, the ported stock jugs will keep up and if are done really good will beat piped and cam'd 450r's - trx or yfz for that matter. I likexc riding but honestly my bike is more setup for baja/mx style riding. So if I came up to ohio i bet i would get stuck in the tight trails with my 51" wide front end. the trails we ride down the shore do get very tight, tight enough you have to angle your way through the trees. I do have another R that is in pieces which i may build as a XC beater. so until then i dont think i could come up and ride in those tight trails. I doubt you would come down here to ride but then again the way my bike is set up would undoubtedly be better then your xc setup hence I would be faster and up by you you would be faster. I am a long ways away from putting my other bike together. but if you really want to come down here with some friends, my invite remains. It could be really fun! I dont know if you bump into chris borich at the gncc's but i bet if you ask him if he would ride his R in racing again he would tell ya, how about bill ballance?

[woodsman250r]

Yea I didnt' realize we lived so far away. I saw pics of your R and I have to compliment that you have a VERY nice R and looks like you take good care of it. If I had the choice of that or a 450 I would take yours but I simply don't have the cash for it. There was a team race a few years ago just across the hill from me at Crow Canyon where we talked to Borich. He was still fresh on his YFZ at the time and said he liked the R better. I don't know how he feels now but I know he did like it better when the YFZ first came out. Like I said I never meant to start a war. To me I like the 450 better but there are others out that that prefer the 250r. I would like to take a ride on a bike like yours to see if my opinion still holds up. However for ease of riding and comfort I am happy with my 450r. Hey beerock you need to get that sweet bike into some races and show people how "86" technology holds up :D

[250r4life]

ok, i hate to beat a dead horse and dont want to be a punk or disrespect people who are trying to be cool, however, there are a few things i need to respond to. 1, i never said the 450s were slow, in fact the post before i was told i shouldt post because i drag at the dunes i had said that the 450s definately deserve respect... ive stated many times that they deserve respect...

i hate to do this cuz he has been trying to be cool and back off on his last couple posts, but the more woodsman talks the more credibility his loses... 1st he says he had and raced a 250r that was, and i quote "modded to the extreme for xc" but later he admits it didnt have too much of anything done to it... he then again says he had a tricked out R, and i have a bit more done than what he did, and i would not say i had a tricked out R. basically he had a pipe, who knows is if was the right pipe for his tipe of riding, and he bumped up the compression a little... man, you dont find too many R's modded that much... (again im sorry, i just have to write this)... he then has the audacity to say " Two strokes can't run with 4 strokes..." right... we later learn that the reason he got rid of it is cuz he blew up the motor, so it probably wasnt a very good R that wasnt tuned right or that had been abused and was needing some TLC... so, he went out and raped it and parted it out- what a shame, one less R in the world... and continuing on we really see that his switch was more economically based than preference or performance based...

basically what we see with him is what we see with a lot of people, which isnt neccesarily a bad thing... they are just different... basically it is that they had a (or multiple) problems with a two stroke either cuz they didnt know how to tune it or maintain it or the person before them didnt so they had problems, had to dump money into it (or they parted it) and didnt want to ever go through that again, and they dont thrive off that seat of the pants two stroke powerband and the intense riding of a two stroke that although is more difficult and more tiring and more skill requiring, it also a lot funner and a lot bigger rush... so they went and got a new 4 stroke cuz they figure its new and will have less breakdowns, require less maintenance, and is a lot easier to ride... like i said its not wrong nor bad, they are just different. i can see where they are coming from- after a couple days of all out riding at the dunes or a long day at the track, i have many times enjoyed "relaxing" and riding one of my buddies 400exs or raptors, as its just so effortless and is a nice release when im dead tired...
i do feel sorry for those for who havent gotten good Rs and i feel fortunate i was able to pick up a good one that was unabused for a great price... i realize not every one is so lucky, so again i understand your postition

[slamdak8782]

Hey I think mod for mod an 250r will definitly surpass the 450r handsdown. If you think your 450 could take a polanda or the new 500r setups you my friend are an idiot. There is no way any worked 450r could take a worked 250r sorry. Anyways enough of my complaining. Who is woodsman 250r I live in Uhrichsville just wondered if I know you.

[MR.BIG]

It all depends on the rider. You can have the fastest bike in the world but if you aren't a good rider it will be useless.
Anyway they are both honda's there for they kick *****!

[woodsman250r]

OK first off I said MY 450 was better than MY old 250, not your guys 250s. I didn't say anywhere that a stock 450 would beat a polanda or a 500 bike, I'm not that dumb. My bike was modded in terms of Laeger, Elka suspension components, and about every other bolt on you can think of. I had an LRD pipe, ESR 36mm Mikuni, Rad Valve, CR head, and .60 bore, and yea 250r4life it was tuned for bottom end. I didn't mean I had a 330pv that can't keep with a 450. I never even said I can't keep with a 450, I said I had a hard time doing it. For ease of riding I prefer the 450 over the 250. The 250 will beat a 450 in cases and vise versa. Like you guys said it depends on rider, setup, tuning, and so on. You guys that have aftermarket cylinders on your R's have an advantage. I gave my opinion on the question based on my experiences on an R and a 450. However it would prob be different if I had a chance to ride an R like beerocks, ESR250R, or 250r4life it would be different. And my tranny blew through the case, I actually remember a few years ago when Yokley did that at a GNCC, but i'm sure his bike was abused, needed some TLC and wasn't tuned right :rolleyes: I go to college too so its hard to keep a nice bike like you guys have. Just feel fortunate that you have such nice bikes, but I feel just fine with my 450. Again I didn't mean to step on peoples toes and be considered an idiot, punk, moron, or A**hole. Top Speed isn't everything on a bike, I would take good suspension and a stock motor anyday over a completely worked motor on average shocks.

[beerock]

Originally posted by woodsman250r
OK first off I said MY 450 was better than MY old 250, not your guys 250s. I didn't say anywhere that a stock 450 would beat a polanda or a 500 bike, I'm not that dumb. My bike was modded in terms of Laeger, Elka suspension components, and about every other bolt on you can think of. I had an LRD pipe, ESR 36mm Mikuni, Rad Valve, CR head, and .60 bore, and yea 250r4life it was tuned for bottom end. I didn't mean I had a 330pv that can't keep with a 450. I never even said I can't keep with a 450, I said I had a hard time doing it. For ease of riding I prefer the 450 over the 250. The 250 will beat a 450 in cases and vise versa. Like you guys said it depends on rider, setup, tuning, and so on. You guys that have aftermarket cylinders on your R's have an advantage. I gave my opinion on the question based on my experiences on an R and a 450. However it would prob be different if I had a chance to ride an R like beerocks, ESR250R, or 250r4life it would be different. And my tranny blew through the case, I actually remember a few years ago when Yokley did that at a GNCC, but i'm sure his bike was abused, needed some TLC and wasn't tuned right :rolleyes: I go to college too so its hard to keep a nice bike like you guys have. Just feel fortunate that you have such nice bikes, but I feel just fine with my 450. Again I didn't mean to step on peoples toes and be considered an idiot, punk, moron, or A**hole. Top Speed isn't everything on a bike, I would take good suspension and a stock motor anyday over a completely worked motor on average shocks.

I just want to let everyone know, i respect woodsman250r. I think 250r4life is out of line, if you have raced both xc and MX then maybe you would understand. I have and understand and in his defense, most xc R racers used 350cc and higher 250r motors. the grunt of a stock jug isnt there and if it is crazily ported
it is definately a handful in the woods. Granted i luv going through tight trails when i had my 265R WOT but i have almsot crashed very hard because of the rear wheel spin plenty of times, in XC you need low end power. and YES for woods and budget a 450r is definately better. i think everyone took woodsman250r's posts out of context all he was doing was refering to how his R was setup, yes he may have stumbled when he said it was worked for gncc, but thats a honest mistake. a worked R for gncc usually has a protrax +1 front end LT shocks 350cc PV motor.

I think this thread was just based on dragging and dollar for dollar a R will beat the 450, both stock the 450 will beat the R and has more bottom end grunt. which is good for gncc.


I could race gncc, i raced a couple and blew my top end in one. GNCC actually can end up costing more then MX because of the nature of GNCC. I rode in tight trails up north really fast with my protrax and i hit a rock so hard it completely gouged my bottom a-arm if it was a little different i could have ripped my whole front end apart and a pro trax fornt end is not cheap. so i tend to stay away from **** like that, I MEAN i love it but cost alot when you break a bike and i ride pretty damn fast in technical ****, ridding fast in tough terrain equals broken parts sooner or later down the line.

[Dippy Dawg]

Man I've been on L/C 250r's since day one and been on 350x's too and when you compare these they are both excellent machines but the 2 stroke takes the cake in the fun factor.

Same with comparing the 250r to the 450r. I love my 450r but it doesn't have the fun/fear factor of my 86 built 250r atc. Like has been said stock vs. stock the 450 wins. throw in some aftermarket parts and a good tune on the 250r and look out.

For my not so casual trail riding I prefer the wildness of the 2 stroke but the 4 stroke is fun too. The 450r is decievingly fast. I didn't realize what a bad *** it really was until I passed some cars in the ditch the other day riding a full out wheelie in 5th gear!!! I'm like holy smokes this thing has some balls could kill ya type power and you wouldn't even know what happened.

I still wish we had the choice between a brand new 2 stroke and a brand new 4 stroke like we had back in the day. Forsure I would own both and it's safe bet most of my time would be spent on the 2 stroke faster or not.

you have to take the fun factor into consideration. Another thing not too many will hop on my 250r but think nothing of the 450r..I think it has something to do with these new 4 strokes are whisper quiet but don't be fooled..it's there

who's going to win a race? as always the better rider

[woodsman250r]

I want to thank beerock for his post, he knows what is required to run a competitive R in a GNCC. I wasn't trying to stomp on anyones bike, its clear that you all have nicer bikes than what mine was and I was making an opinion from my perspective. Beerock your R is sweet and I would trade my stock 450 for it anyday hands down. Mine simply wasn't as good as your guys motor wise. I know where you are comin from beerock, I have torn up a lot of components just from racing, rocks, ruts, stumps, logs, ect. Its a completely different environment from dunes, mx, ect. I'll tell ya one thing, I wouldn't want to ride your bike in the woods, that thing is way to nice to tear up on rocks and trees! Beerock about that oil, did you want all 4 quarts and the ratio rite as well? Send me ur zip too for shipping. Also in about a week or two i'm going to be a dealer for Amsoil so if there is anything else you need let me know and I can hook you up. Thanks again man, and enjoy that pimp R of yours.

[LT250Racer609]

i had a 450R and i didnt like it so i got ride of it and got a fully worked 250R....i would choose a 2 stroke over a 4 stroke anyday however thats just my preference

[md1985250r]

I dont even know where to start...............There is SO MUCH BULLCRAP in this thread its ridiculous.

If a stock 450 quad(I dont care if its Yamaha or Honda or whatever) is beating your 250r (3 or 4 wheeler) the 250 is not tuned properly!PERIOD

Now if ya'll want to talk about mods then the sky is the limit and equal comparisons are out the window .

I forget who said it , but I think the statement made about being able to outride most people is absolutely the most Outrageous statement I think I have ever read on any board or forum!

If you are that good you should be racing pro. Let your actions speak for you . Anybody that tells others how good they are probably cant ride at all!!


The bottom line is ...........are you ready...............................ITS ALL ABOUT THE RIDER !!

[beerock]

I will say this and im done because this thread is rediculous obviously.

when you drag race there is a point where its ALL MACHINE and has nothing to do with the rider. This usually happens when you have two riders dragging against each other who can get on either bike in the drag race and let the bike do the talking. lets just say, to keep arguments to a minimum both riders are the same weight.
In a situation like this the bike with more power will win almost every time as long as the startsand shifts are good for both rider.

Hell ill tell you this right now for ****s and giggles. I raced a MACDIZZY 350 PV against my B+B 265 R and i beat him by 2 bike lengths 3 times in a row. MY other buddy told our firned with the macdizzy 350 pv to get off the bike(this kid was riding a ESR 370)
The FIRST race he smoked me by 5 bike lengths(still not to bad for my 265) this was a case of a bad rider....

POINT IS

don't ever under estimate a bike because you beat it in a drag unless you know the rider either SUCKS or is really good.


md1985250r, i think i was the one who said that but its true most people who dont regularly ride with us(and are usually the ones talkin about how they are so good) they end up having a dumb founded look when they are riding with us and they find out there really not as good as they thought. I did say this isnt everyone who rides with us the ones that keep up we welcome back wheneverr they want to ride with us.



woodsman250r i replied to the amsoil thread, I want all the oil, i dont need the ratio rite, i use the maxima mixer its great. my paypal account is in there too just request the money.

p.s.
I would hope you would trade your bike for a bike like mine, hell even a worked 450. because a worked 450 still wont beat my bike ;) (IN A DRAG!) on the track etc it is all rider...

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by beerock
when you drag race there is a point where its ALL MACHINE and has nothing to do with the rider.

Uphill sand drag. The great equalizer.

Unless you miss a shift, or aren't geared correctly, the bike with the higher power will win every time. At my local sandbox, max speed is reached 70 yards up, then its another 150 yards of steady throttle, usually in the same gear.

I don't care if you're Tim Farr, and you're racing my 80yr-old grandmother. If your machine has 61hp, and my grandmother's has 63hp, my grandmother will win.

Even if you get the jump off the line, it's not enough to overcome that long uphill climb.

[md1985250r]

beerock, it was not you that I was refering to. Since you said that I had to go back and see who said it. It was 250r4life who said he can outride almost everyone. That would be where my statement is directed.

[bubbag]

I stomp 450's with pipes and cams. And even 50 pound lighter riders on loose gravel until they pass me when I'm wound out in 6th. And all I have is a bolt on stock unported R. And all of em had better tires than me too.
So yea I guess I'm glad I bought a R :devil:

[NOS_350x]

Originally posted by bwamos

The 4 vs 2 will be a debate for a long time.. lol. 10 years ago there were stories about people smoking 250r's and Banshees on their 300ex's, 250x's and Warriors.


If anyone from cali wants to pay me a visit ill end those stories. )they wont be stories anymore)
Ill race any 310r and under with my ole 350x 3wheeler. Its fast for a 85 4 stroke and isnt afraid to race anything.

[ninis470]

Originally posted by NOS_350x
If anyone from cali wants to pay me a visit ill end those stories. )they wont be stories anymore)
Ill race any 310r and under with my ole 350x 3wheeler. Its fast for a 85 4 stroke and isnt afraid to race anything.
hey nos, i'm in tulare, just south of ya. are you going to the race this weekend?

[ground_zero298]

Originally posted by bubbag
I stomp 450's with pipes and cams. And even 50 pound lighter riders on loose gravel until they pass me when I'm wound out in 6th. And all I have is a bolt on stock unported R. And all of em had better tires than me too.
So yea I guess I'm glad I bought a R :devil:

passed in 6th? Your 250 should top out higher than both 450's. What gears are u runnin?

[hondardr4life]

Ok, I have read this whole tread over and over trying to decide which one I want to buy. I have never ridden a 250r though. One thinbg I will say about the 450r is that it has very smooth power, and I prefer more of a rip your arms off feel. Like the quad has so much crazy power that its hard to keep the front end down when you get on it hard. Also, you can get a pep, long travel R, all decked out for the same price as a stock 450r. I need to ride a 250r before I make my decision.

[250R4EVR]

Make the right choice and buy a 250r! im so sick of hearing 450r this 450r that. Ive got a Nac's Racing R with an 265 Sparks motor and i race the 520 nation 450s and sadly beat them!
~FU(K 4 STROKE~ ~ long live the 250r~

[LT250Racer609]

i had a 04 450R and got ride of it because i was so much faster on my fully built R its rediculous....i keep up fine with the 450's at the MX races and i only have a ported & polished GT Thunder 265R w. boyseen rad valve and carbon fiber reeds,38 mm air stryker carb and .LRD pipe and silencer...i cant wait for next years races when i have a 310 ported/polished cylinder instead


its all rider preference. if you want to ride something that you hafto hold on to handle then get the 250R...if u want something that sounds like a fart get the 450:D

[rockman]

wow i love it.

[250r4life]

i dont agree that the 250r neccessarily will top out higher than 450s... i havent done it since putting in my 265 kit, but before when i was just piped and filtered etc... i was racing a couple raptors and 450s on flat hardpacked straight aways, and they always overtook me eventually when i was in 6th... i have the stock 89 gearing...

[hondardr4life]

I do really like the 4 stroke sound though, I admit that. Like I said, I need to ride a built 250r before I just go randomly buying one. I've heard the 06 450's are pretty mean, but I need to ride like a 265 or a 310 or a 330r first.

[MR.BIG]

It's all preference that's the bottom line!

[bwamos]

Agree...
I like the feel of the 250r's. They really are both pretty even, especially with the new 06's out. But, in my experience the 250r's are still a bit faster in their realm. I like the smaller fit and lighter feel of a good 250r.

Heck, I've beaten a 250r two times in a row in a sand drag with my 330ex. Of course the first time he fouled a plug.. and the second time he was changing the plug. :D

I'm betting in the next 5 years.. the technology on 4-stroke atv's will finally surpass the raw power of the old 2-strokes by adding direct port fuel injection, improved head designs, pipe technology, pneumatic computer controlled valves,etc... There's a LOT of untapped potential in atv 4-stroke engines still.

Remember, the 4-stroke motors we have even in the latest greatest quads, is still pretty much 1983 or older automobile technology. Nothing revolutionary.

[wilkin250r]

The newer generation of 4-strokes are amazing. The potential is beginning to rival that of the 2-strokes, it's not uncommon to see the thumpers pushing 65+ horsepower. And, unlike the high-horsepower 2-stroke, they still retain the low-end grunt that 4-strokes are known for, so the power is much more ridable.

And, like bwamos said, there is still room to grow. Direct-port injection, variable valve timing, there are avenues to explore.

There is potential for 2-strokes as well. Marine outboards use DFI, and that technology could probably be adapted for ATV use, but nobody is willing to put money into research.

Still, I love that powerband, and that's something that no 4-stroke can duplicate. :devil:

[slamdak8782]

Wilkin250r I respect your opinion but I haven't seen any 450s putting out 65 horses. Most that I've seen is about 52 with the 450 bore but if you did see this. Where was it? I have heard of some big bore raptors in that range but then your at least at a 686 or more.

[BLACKeR]

most of the pros 450's are making somewhere around the 65hp range.

[slamdak8782]

cmon man no way the pros 450s are making 65hp on the stock bore

[wilkin250r]

No, I don't think anybody is getting 65hp out of 450cc, I'm talking about big-bore and stroker kits pumping 65+hp.

I heard a rumor that one YFZ was pumping 85HP on the dyno at Trinity. Now, the dyno at Trinity is questionable, from what I hear, but it's probably safe to say that it can't be THAT far off. Anything reading 85HP is probably pumping out over 70 at least.

I'm trying to verify this rumor as we speak.

And all accounts I can see, although the Raptors are at 686cc, the 450s actually have more horsepower potential, due mainly to better design and higher revs.

[ESR250R]

Originally posted by BLACKeR
most of the pros 450's are making somewhere around the 65hp range.


:huh


i would say they are around 52-56 hp, and about the 70-85 hp yfz on the trinity dyno. i would say that would be great for drag racing, but that motor would not hold up to mx or xc. besides i dont think its the engine output that needs to improve on alot of these quads. i think its the chassis and handling that needs to improve first. you can have a 70hp motor on your atv but if you dont feel comfortable on the quad your not gonna use it.

[wilkin250r]

I think a 70HP YFZ would be awesome for dunes. I would trade my 250r today for one if I could.

A 70HP 2-stroke is dang-near unridable. Strictly drag-racing.

But a 70HP 4-stroke, especially if it revs to the moon like YFZs are known to do? *drool*

[Hoppedrap]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
I think a 70HP YFZ would be awesome for dunes. I would trade my 250r today for one if I could.

A 70HP 2-stroke is dang-near unridable. Strictly drag-racing.

But a 70HP 4-stroke, especially if it revs to the moon like YFZs are known to do? *drool*

Not true I've got a 81 HP banshee that I dune all day.

[BLACKeR]

i was sure i read an article about tim farrs bike, and i thought it said it was putting out 65hp, it might have been 60, it was a little while ago. ill see if i can find it again, and get an accurate number. i do remember being blown away by it when i saw it. my bro used to have a 75hp banshee with a -2 swingarm for woods. it wasnt unridable, just scary

[wicked265R]

wow, i cant believe how popular this topic got! I almost read all 8 pages of mostly B.S. but some of it was knowlegdeable. It seems consistent with the previous pages that the people who are R vets or have been riding R's for a while know what they are talking about, Beerock for example. I don't even want to bring up anything about the R and new 450's in fear of being wildy overwhelmed with contradictions.

when i got my R i had intentions of removing the 265 motor and replacing it with a crf450 motor or some high performance dirtbike motor. Then i rode & raced it and thats all i needed for a change of opinion. My bike is still domanite in its own classes (2-stroke production) or 250cc two stroke. Something of that sort. Yes, it is very hard to control sometimes, but you are still moving pretty fast at a comfortable pace. I rode both, the yfz and 450r and am pleased with their performance. If I could get one mx ready (LT suspension, ect) i would most certainly take that over my R.

I think the 250R deserves some respect from these newer 450 riders. They are still around, raced, rode, ect. If it wasnt for the old R there wouldnt be any 450r or yfz probably. and did you ever stop to think about why 250r's are still ridden until this day? because they were designed so well. The geometry and layout of the bike was exceptionally great. I love the new 450's and have nothing bad to say about them. They do everything just as well, or better than an R could. But like i said, the R has earned respect in all different types of events. So bad mouthing it at all is just ignorant. So, respect the elders in the quad world & ride balls to the wall!:devil:

[rockman]

that is probably my favorite post in the whole thread. Very well put.
i too am a die hard 250r fan, BUT like wicked265r there really is nothing bad you can say about a 450. yes R's have been around for a long time and will be for all that matter, but you have to consider where the technology is going these days. it is very feesable that manufacturers will be producing 4 stroke motors that will rev out much like 2 strokes. take the yfz for example. everyone i've talked to say it reminds them of a 2 stroke. i have no experience with a honda 450r but i have alot of experience with the yamaha. i love my r but things are changing. I would still never give up the 2stroke and neither would any other R owner out there.