True or False?

[Evan]

Is it true they are going to cease the production of OEM 250R parts by 2010?

[Eddiesanders250]

i doubt it they will never stop selling parts for the R.

[kwatts400]

Some oem parts are already discontinued. I don't think it will be long before we will only have the aftermarket for parts. I will definately buy a new set of 89'r plastic before that happens.

[MR.BIG]

Kwatts400,
What is faster your 250r or your 450r?

Silly question :)

All depends dude, the R puts out more HP stock compared to stock 4 stroke 450r.... not to mention rpm.

Its up to you really, you want a thumper or a zinger.

[MR.BIG]

I don't think so! A 450r puts out more horsepower than a stock 250r. The 450r vs 250r (stock) is not even a race a 450 will easily smoke the 250r. I asked him the question because he has work done to both!

[kwatts400]

Before I put the slip-on on my 450r, it was pretty close. I haven't raced them head to head, but I have raced both against my friends 310r. My 250r was about half of a bike length either way depending on the start, my 450r was usually a half bike length ahead.

I'll have to let you know when I get back from Silver Lake. I don't think it will be a problem to run them against each other out there.

If your 250R isnt beating your stock 450R then you need to tune better.

[kwatts400]

They've got basically the same mods, and I'm thinking they are both putting out right about 40-41 hp.

[deathman53]

its all the rider, and whats done to the bike, with equally done bikes its all the rider. I don't think in honda's wildest dreams that they would still be making and selling tons of 250r parts almost 20 years later. suprisingly if you look, honda still makes alot of parts for three wheelers too, the 85/86 r's, 200x's and 350x's are the most plentifull. But honda has discontinued lots of little parts that make the bike(rubber groments, small brackets, decals, etc)

[kwatts400]

Originally posted by deathman53
its all the rider.

100% correct. Which is exactly why my 250r is so close to his 310r. He is not into drag racing his bike, so my experience drag racing at Silver Lake gives me an advantage over him when we line them up.

[Blown 331]

Originally posted by DierWolf
If your 250R isnt beating your stock 450R then you need to tune better.

You obviously have no experince with a 450R. A 450 puts out more power and runs more RPM than a 250R. My ATC250R has a wiesco piston, boyesen rad valve, 36mm flat slide, ESR ATC-5 Exhaust and a CR head gasket. My 450R has the HRC kit and yosh exhaust. In the middle gears the 3-wheeler can hang but down low and up top the 450 kills it. It won't even be a contest after a get a piston in the 450.

[wilkin250r]

And it sounds like your ATC250r runs like crap, if your 450R runs circles around it.

I'm not sure of what terrain you're riding, but around here at the local uphill sand drags, the ATC250r is a decent contender, even in mostly stock form. A few hundred bucks in porting and head mods and no 450r can come close without major work.

[deathman53]

I've given quads a good chase at the mx tracks around me on my atc250r(but mine is far from stock), and I'm hard to keep up with in the woods on my atc200x(mostly stock, for now). A good bike and a crappy riders still means you are gonna ride slow, a good rider on a crappy bike will be fast, its that simple. My friend rides a 450r with tons of parts, a few weeks ago he rode a STOCK yfz and was just as fast as his 450r. I'd be willing to bet that Tim far, Travis Spader, Bill Ballance, etc would kick my *** on(and half the other guys) any track with a STOCK 400ex, yes even if I rode my crf450r racer.
I was at the track yesterday with my quad, and the guys there said something very supprising, that they thought I am faster on my atc250r (compared to the crf450r racer). hmmmm......so a 450r will humilate a atc250r.......ok

[Blown 331]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
And it sounds like your ATC250r runs like crap, if your 450R runs circles around it.

I'm not sure of what terrain you're riding, but around here at the local uphill sand drags, the ATC250r is a decent contender, even in mostly stock form. A few hundred bucks in porting and head mods and no 450r can come close without major work.

I actually dont think the ATC could really run any better for what is done to it. We drag race on pavement and we've switched riders and gotten the same results. My buddy has a 450R with the same mods as mine and he also has a TRX250R with porting a 19cc cool head plus what is done to my ATC. It can beat my ATC but not a 450R.

Originally posted by Blown 331
You obviously have no experince with a 450R. A 450 puts out more power and runs more RPM than a 250R. My ATC250R has a wiesco piston, boyesen rad valve, 36mm flat slide, ESR ATC-5 Exhaust and a CR head gasket. My 450R has the HRC kit and yosh exhaust. In the middle gears the 3-wheeler can hang but down low and up top the 450 kills it. It won't even be a contest after a get a piston in the 450.

Hey guys, im sorry....when you said 450 i was thinking Yamaha 450 not TRX450....

Your right i do not have TRX450R experence have not run one of those but i have the Yamaha 450 and i also have a Raptor 660.

I also have to agree with wilkin250 The ATC which is MUCH lighter than the TRX250R with the same engine was and still is one of if not THE fastest rides out there for its size, if you know what your doing and should run circles around yes even the honda 450R not to mention Yamaha 450 or raptor.

PS, Stock HP on TRX450 is 34HP typical of a Thumper of its.

With a good pipe the TRX450 can get between 40-50 hp depending on the pipe/jetting.

Peak SAE corrected HP as measured at the rear wheel is 53.3 with the high compression head and 49.7 with the lower compression head on the TRX250R engine.

So i still maintain the TRX250R should whoop and can whoop any 4 stroker 450 quad out there provided its tuned properly and has a good pipe.

Hell i've seen 250R's whooping the hell out of fully modded Raptors... But like what someone said its all the rider... In 2 stroke you need to know your bike and where the power band is and ride the pipe.

But when it comes to HP i'll take 2 stroke any day over a thumper.

[Blown 331]

I'm not sure where you got your HP numbers but they are so far off it's not even funny. You're about 10-15hp too high on the 250R. And here is a dyno sheet on the 450's.

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=91151&highlight=450r+dyno+yfz450

[ridinredodb]

whoa!!! that guy is WAY OFF!!! a stock 450R will slat out spank a 250R. my 450R runs the 1/8th mile with a 8.85 ET @ 73 MPH
the ATC is faster than the TRX 250R but still no match for the 450R.
now on a track a modded 250R can put a whoppin on about anything, id hate to say it but the 450's are taking over

Here are some stock ATV Speeds.

Yamaha Raptor.............68mph

Yamaha Banshee............71mph

Yamaha Warrior............61mph

Yamaha Blaster............59mph

Honda 250R................68mph

Honda 250EX...............50mph

Honda 300EX...............54mph

Honda 400EX...............65mph

Polaris Sport 400.........64mph

Bombardier 650............71mph

Polaris Scrambler 500.....63mph


Dont know where you got the stock speed of the Honda 450 but if it is 73mph, a 4mph gain in 2 stroke is NOTHING to accomplish.

Stock TRX450R dyno Chart before and after changing the pipe.

Stock is 30-33hp,,, Who's dyno is correct????

every stock dyno i have seen has been 30-36hp most of which are 30-33hp except for these guys that you posted up.

[LT250Racer609]

Originally posted by deathman53
I've given quads a good chase at the mx tracks around me on my atc250r(but mine is far from stock), and I'm hard to keep up with in the woods on my atc200x(mostly stock, for now). A good bike and a crappy riders still means you are gonna ride slow, a good rider on a crappy bike will be fast, its that simple. My friend rides a 450r with tons of parts, a few weeks ago he rode a STOCK yfz and was just as fast as his 450r. I'd be willing to bet that Tim far, Travis Spader, Bill Ballance, etc would kick my *** on(and half the other guys) any track with a STOCK 400ex, yes even if I rode my crf450r racer.
I was at the track yesterday with my quad, and the guys there said something very supprising, that they thought I am faster on my atc250r (compared to the crf450r racer). hmmmm......so a 450r will humilate a atc250r.......ok



you are exactly correct! i had a brand new 450R last year...i was the first one to basically pull up to the MX gate and line up with it cause it JUST and i mean JUST came out...i pulled it right off the show room floor before they even had any in crates in....anyways i raced my whole 04 season with my 450R...then i rode my dads MX worked 250R...+2 a-arms, Pep shocks, +4 LSR axle etc....he told me it looked like i was a faster and better rider on his 250 so he recorded my lap times...come to find out i was way faster on his 250...so i hooked up with a guy from ohio with a Lonestar250R that was professionally MX ready...and traded him my 450R....i went from last year being behind the pack to leading it.....its exactly like 95% rider...5% quads HANDLING....u can have a 300 ex motor (just an example, not bashing 300ex's) and a guy that knows how to ride it and he will be right up there with the guy on the 15,000$ CRF that cant ride..

[LT250Racer609]

why dont us 250R riders throw a 350 PV engine in our R's and eliminate thumpers for good from start to finish:D

i have yet to see a 4 stokr even RUN with a 350 Power valve engine....i watched a hybrid CRF450 with a 500 kit get Eatin alive by a 350 PV.....


and if u wanna talk some serious 2 stokr power we can move onto a ported and polished quadzilla:blah:

LOL 350PV is nice but i jumped past that and just went as big as i could LOL.

[Evan]

Can we argue a little? Anyone knows cc per cc, dollar for dollar, 2 strokes are gonna win....

No one knows the answer to my question for sure?

[MR.BIG]

My friend has a 265Pv motor in his R and my 450r can stick right to him. His brother has a 350PV motor from LRD in his 250r and I took that for a short ride that thing has TONS of motor in every gear. I didn't get to run it but I am sure it would give me a spanking so I will have to do many more mods to keep up to that animal!

[Blown 331]

Originally posted by DierWolf
Here are some stock ATV Speeds.

Yamaha Raptor.............68mph

Yamaha Banshee............71mph

Yamaha Warrior............61mph

Yamaha Blaster............59mph

Honda 250R................68mph

Honda 250EX...............50mph

Honda 300EX...............54mph

Honda 400EX...............65mph

Polaris Sport 400.........64mph

Bombardier 650............71mph

Polaris Scrambler 500.....63mph


Dont know where you got the stock speed of the Honda 450 but if it is 73mph, a 4mph gain in 2 stroke is NOTHING to accomplish.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/trx450rlude/topspeed.jpg

[wilkin250r]

You can argue rider skill on MX tracks, even on flat, short drag races. Uphill sand drags are the most convenient and democratic measurement of motor performance. Nowhere else is the rider LESS important, and horsepower the true king of the hill.

Name any racer you want, Tim Farr, Cory Ellis, Yokely, whatever. All the skill in the world isn't going to get a 300EX to the top of the hill faster than my grandma on a banshee. For the most part, except for a gross error like a missed shift or killing the quad on a start, skill makes very little difference in an uphill sand drag.

With that being said, I stand by my comment. An ATC250r with nothing but a pipe should be able to hang with a 450R, I've seen it over and over. Throw some actual internal engine mods into the mix on the ATC, like porting and higher compression, and the 450r is just going to look silly in an uphill sand drag.

[Blown 331]

I like how all you die hard 250R guys compare modded 250R's to stock 450R's. I pretty much have a stock 450R and a modded ATC250R. The 450 is still much faster in a drag on pavement. The 3 wheeler can hang pretty good in 2nd through 6th. From a dead stop the 450 gets way out in front and the 3 wheeler cant catch it. If we go from a roll to keep the ATC even it does pretty well up until 6th then gets smoked.
My 3-wheeler has stock gears and stock tires. I want to gear it up a tooth on the front. That should give me top end to hang with the 450 and when I drag race it, I start in 2nd because first is too low. This should make it very close, until I do internal engine work to the 450 ( now that part sound like some of you guys).

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by Blown 331
I like how all you die hard 250R guys compare modded 250R's to stock 450R's.

That's because the 250R is so easy and cheap to mod, where the 450R is not.

I have no problem admitting it, the 450R is a great quad. But $500 bucks into a 450R isn't going to give you a HUGE increase, so most people don't bother. But $500 into a 250R CAN give a huge increase, like 50% more power, rather than the 12% gain you'll get in a 450R. As such, more people mod the 250r.

We compare a modded 250r to a stock 450r because that's the most common scenario. Of all the 250R owners I've ever met, very few of them are riding on stock machines, or even stock motors. However, the exact opposite is true for 450r owners, very few are riding with anything more than a pipe and filter upgrade.

[250-R-250]

For the same amount of $$$ you put into your 450r's we can do wonders to the 250r.

Thumpers suck, plain and simple... for all the CC's you would think you got bunches of HP. its pretty sad to me that you 4 stroke has such low HP ratings.

You 4 strokers love talking about torque, but yet its the 4 stroke next to me going up the hill with me thats continuously downshifting while i PING my way up the same hill in the same high gear i was in at the bottom of the hill. Guess all that torque only comes into play in 1st and 2nd....

Also like i said before if you have a 250R and it dont keep up with your 450R then you simply have no idea on how to tune a 2 stroke for its max potential.

CC for CC 2 stroke Kills 4 stroke and no one can argue that point, should really feel ashame bragging that your 450R "JUST" beats a 250R.

Question does your 450R beat the Raptor 660? i really hope so because 250R's whip its Arse day in and day out down here.

[Blown 331]

I agree cc for cc a 2-stroke makes more power and I agree they are cheaper to mod. Cheaper isn't always better. Don't forget about reliability. That's no contest there, don't see many 2-stroke cars. I love my 250R but it does need a lot of maint. compared to the 4-strokes. I have a 1976 Yamaha TT500 and to my knowledge it's never even had rings. Still runs great and I ride the **** out of it. I have a bunch of XR's and XL's too. Never been into the motor on any of those either. Does my 450R beat a Raptor? Thats funny, it's not even a race. Raptors are slow turds. That's about like asking if you can beat a 400EX on your TRX500R. My 3-wheeler is running to it's potential it runs great. I've beat tons of 250R's in straight line sand drags, I guess know one I've ever ridden with know's how to tune them.
You gotta give the 450 some time, it came out last year. More and more parts will continue to come out and sooner or later modded 450's will be everywhere.
And now for the big question, can your TRX500R beat a blaster?

Why dont the CR250's dominate the CRF450R's? How do you think a 1986 CR250 would do in motocross vs a CRF450R? And 4 strokes are better for hill climbs? Ever watch they on TV? Nitro methane powered Hyabusa motor.

Is that what you have to resort to in 4 stroke to gain a considerable amount of HP, to not NOS???

Dude give me a break....

Maintenance on 2 stroke is no different than 4 stroke, both if you dont take care of them will break down, big difference is when a 4 stroke breaks down you have to pay 3 times the amount to fix it.

I dont have to give 4 stroke a chance, i love my heart pumping revs and quick response and no bogging in high gears.

My TRX500R against a blaster is a joke, i wouldnt even bother answering the guy that asks for that race.

At least we agree on something, Raptors suck :)

[Blown 331]

This is my last post on this thread but NOS (you say the letters seperately, it's not pronounced NAUS!!) is an oxidixer and Nitro Methane is a fuel, they are not the same thing. And I also like how you know which of my ATV's is the fastest. And it's not a tuning problem. You can come tune my 250R and ride it. I'll buy what ever jets or air filter or fuel or what ever you need to tune my current combo and when we race you'll see nothing but the 450R tail light.

[wilkin250r]

I don't disbelieve you, I'm sure your 450r IS faster. But that's because you're comparing stock for stock. Of course a 2004 450cc engine designed for racing is going to be faster than a 1985 250cc 2-stroke designed as a trail machine.

Stock for stock, sure, the 450R is probably faster, but that's on flat ground. On an uphill sand drag, I bet the ATC closes the gap, if not pulling ahead.

Slightly mod each of them, and the ATC will have the edge.

Heavily mod each of them, and the ATC will make the 450r look like a power-wheels toy.

[LT250Racer609]

wilkin is completly correct....even so much as a pipe, reed valve and other little bolt on's to the 250R only makes the 450R look slower.....i believe u said u had a 250R 3 wheeler and if your 3 wheeler cant hang with a 450R stock for stock then your 250 is running like ****....its only common sence...power to weight ratio....do the math and the numbers will come out better for the ATC in every catagory HENCE making it Stock for stock faster then a 450R IF its running to its best...the only place the 450R should pull on the ATC is in a mud bog contest:D

[MR.BIG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wilkin250r
[B]That's because the 250R is so easy and cheap to mod, where the 450R is not.

I have no problem admitting it, the 450R is a great quad. But $500 bucks into a 450R isn't going to give you a HUGE increase, so most people don't bother. But $500 into a 250R CAN give a huge increase, like 50% more power, rather than the 12% gain you'll get in a 450R. As such, more people mod the 250r.


I disagree with this! Yes they are more expensive when you get into carbs! But just putting a pipe on a 450r makes a huge difference. Add a cam and it's even faster. With a pipe and a cam you are looking at $600! I use to have a 1985 250r three wheeler and they are extremely fast stock so if you mod them they will be really hard to beat in a straight line but stock vs stock the 450r will take in thru the gears but the atc might have a little more topend. I doesn't really matter the 250r atc and quad are both excellent machines but the 450r is the new breed but they are all HONDA'S.

[Blown 331]

I know I said my last post was my last post but just for the record my 450R has a Yosh full system and an HRC kit. No internal motor work or other mods at all.

My ATC has an ESR ATC-5 full system, Weisco piston, CR head gasket, Boyesen RAD valve, 36mm flat slide, UNI filter and no air box lid. Like I said it's a close race but the 450 is still faster, it really pulls away on top end. If we go from a roll the 3-wheeler can pull a head but it's not much and not for long. I'm talking 1 foot for about 5 seconds. What happens when I get a piston and do some head work to the 450? The 450 only has 10.5 to 1 compression and with my HRC cam I can go up to 12.5 to 1 and still run pump gas. I'm like the looks of the ESR 480cc 12.5 to 1 piston.

I'm not trying to talk down on the 250R, I like it just as much as my 450 if not maybe a little more I'm just telling you those 450's rip. And I don't know how you can think a 250R is a trail bike.

I'm trying to get my 250R to beat my 450, it will someday but it's gonna take more work than you 250R guys think. The weight isn't a huge difference. My 3-wheeler weighs 300 pounds and my 450 weighs 350.

[Iliketogofast]

Lol... this is stupid. I just smoked a piped 450 last night down the road. Why are we even asking wether or not a 250R can beat a 450R? We shouldn't ***** about it, just wait til the race comes then smoke their asses and you can just skip the talk.

[Blown 331]

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
Lol... this is stupid. I just smoked a piped 450 last night down the road. Why are we even asking wether or not a 250R can beat a 450R? We shouldn't ***** about it, just wait til the race comes then smoke their asses and you can just skip the talk.

You're less than 3 hours from me. I'll race my 450 vs your 250 on the road. Dead stop. Lets put some money on it.

[wilkin250r]

I would consider an HRC cam an internal motor mod, just as I would any other camshaft.

An aftermarket Wiseco piston in a 250r doesn't do much. It's not quite like a 4-stroke, where pistons will increase compression. In the 250r, almost all pistons are exactly the same, the increase in compression is done with headwork, not with pistons. So stock piston or aftermarket piston, they're all the same as far as power output, but the same isn't true for 4-strokes.

A CR head gasket won't do much either, it's not THAT much thinner. Likewise, the carb doesn't help top-end power all that much, it's only a 36mm. The size and flat slide will help throttle response, but that's it.

So really, the only "performance" modifications you have on the ATC250R are the reeds, pipe, and filter, the motor is basically stock.

At this point, you are comparing a 450r with camshaft upgrade and pipe (and I assume also a filter), to a 250r with reeds and a pipe. No surprise that the 450r is the winner.

[MR.BIG]

Originally posted by Iliketogofast
Lol... this is stupid. I just smoked a piped 450 last night down the road. Why are we even asking wether or not a 250R can beat a 450R? We shouldn't ***** about it, just wait til the race comes then smoke their asses and you can just skip the talk.

Dude with the mods listed your 250r is going to get smoked. I love 250r's but a 450 will smoke them unless they are running a powervalve cylinder then it is a different story! Somebody is calling you out!

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by MR.BIG
Dude with the mods listed your 250r is going to get smoked. I love 250r's but a 450 will smoke them unless they are running a powervalve cylinder then it is a different story! Somebody is calling you out!

Are we talking strictly motor (drag racing), or are we talking useable, ridable power (MX). Because if we're just talking drag racing, I don't need a powervalve. I can easily build a 250r motor to make a 450r look silly, and I can do it on the stock cylinder. You wouldn't be able to ride it MX, it would stricly be a top-end screamer, but the 450r wouldn't stand a chance.

[Blown 331]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
Are we talking strictly motor (drag racing), or are we talking useable, ridable power (MX). Because if we're just talking drag racing, I don't need a powervalve. I can easily build a 250r motor to make a 450r look silly, and I can do it on the stock cylinder. You wouldn't be able to ride it MX, it would stricly be a top-end screamer, but the 450r wouldn't stand a chance.

I still have a stock air filter in my 450, with the stock-very restrictive metal mesh spark arrestor.

Hey, I have the cylinder of my ATC right now. New piston on the way. I want it to beat my 450 in a drag but I want it to be still ridable in the woods. My cylinder will be 60 over but other than that totally stock. No porting or polishing. What should I do with it? I don't want to spend more that like $100 or so. Can I do anything for that amount?
I've been trying to accomplish this, hence my other mods. When I ask any 250R guy what to do they say my bike is messed up because it should beat the 450 already. IT'S NOT MESSED UP, IT RUNS GREAT!! I called ESR and they said their econo (no porting) 310 kit should do it. lol.

[wilkin250r]

So you want more top-end horsepower to beat the 450r in a drag race, but still have the low-end power and smooth powerband to be able to ride it in the woods?

If you want more power overall, not just in one spot, you're looking at a big-bore kit, and you're not going to find that with $100. In fact, if you wanted really good overall power, I would suggest a completely new cylinder (like Pro-X) and an aftermarket head for higher compression. A massive 330 kit using an aftermarket cylinder should run circles around the 450, but still be ridable in the woods. Unfortunately, it also costs over a grand by the time you're done.

[Blown 331]

Well this thread has changed subjects like 6 times. lol

Well I just got my piston. I was thinking maybe have the maching shop shave the head too. How much can I mill it and still run 93 octane? I don't want to be on the verge of detonation either, SAFELY run 93 octane.
So you think I would benefit from a different carb? Stock was a 34mm round slide now I have a 36m flat slide, I basically got it for free. I figure that has to help a little. I'm ok with some bottom end loss but I just don't want it to be completely useless in the woods. I'm looking for anything small I can do right now. My buddy has a 450 and we made a bet for money that I can beat him on my 3-wheeler. I'm gonna gear it up a tooth in the front too.

I have my stock motor out of this 3-wheeler. It had the stock piston and rings when I got it and the piston shattered and blew out the crank case. When I have the money I'm sending it to ESR. The are rebuilding the crank, fixing the cases and boring the rod opening in the cases for a 330 cylinder with spacer plate with a cool head with angled spark plug to clear my 3-wheeler frame. When they send it back it will be ready to bolt in and go for about $1500.

[wilkin250r]

I'm not sure what you can do with $100 to make it beat a 450R. For probably around $300 or so you could get a midrange porting and the head rechambered for higher compression. That would give you a nice increase in power, but still be ridable in the woods. I would say you would pick up a good 10hp at least, and probably beat a 450r.