Long-travel or standard

[Mxracer53]

I need to know if long travel is needed for local A class and C lass at nationals and maybe B class

[Scro]

i dont think it is necessary, but it would probably help alot

[450Rcarbonpro]

Look man seriously, longtravel is a serious advantage. It is always the rider but less fitigue means you can ride faster longer period. I though for a long time that standard was good enough and LT was for upper level riders. Not the case. I have longtravel now and my riding has drastically improved. Bumps and sharp edges that you slowed down for befor, now you won't even feel them and no more need to plan around nasty areas as you can fly right through or over them with ease.

[steveatv3]

I love my longtravel front end its is absolutly incredeble over stock you ride a quad with longtravel and you will never go back. I would never race any class on a quad without LT. Also longtravel is exstremely adjustable. I use my quadrate elkas for drag racing, MX Bclass, and flat track

[T2RACING]

How exactly are LT shocks good for drag racing?? Whats the advantage???

[steveatv3]

The advantage with mine is that most people run struts just straight pipe as shocks, and with LT i have them sagging so much when i get on the gas the front end pics up but not enough to max out the shock so i am able to lay on the gas without the front end comming up and loosing time by wheeling. The same with Flattrack racing when cornering the front wont pick up and you can play with the rebound adjustment

Right now i am in 2nd place in the points at my drag racing track hopfully going to take 1st soon.

[roostin_dale]

always get LT if you have the money...

but why local A and C National? big jump there....I race local B and national B...

[Meek]

I am running Houser/Elka long travel front and rear, and love it. It will make you a lot faster ridder.

[holeshot19]

Originally posted by Meek
I am running Houser/Elka long travel front and rear, and love it. It will make you a lot faster ridder. not faster than me:blah:

[Ridin' Jesse]

Its not mandatory but its def. worth getting over regular travel..

[Meek]

Originally posted by holeshot19
not faster than me:blah:

True dat

[holeshot19]

Originally posted by Meek
True dat na just going on with u, i have the long travel houser rear also, but i have the standerd travel front with fully adj elkas allway around, i just didnt think the extra 6 to 8 hunderd $s was in my best interest

[Meek]

All I can say, is that it is the best ridding quad that I have ever ran.

[Mxracer53]

because here there is only a and b class and i am leading b in 2 series so i dont just depends on how fast i am then.

[TBD]

There is NOT that much difference between the LTfront end( should be called LS for long shock) and the std travel front end as long as the shock builder valves and springs the shocks correctly.
As far as the cost for the LT front end, I know of a couple of companies that make excellent LS front ends that aren't gauging people just because of the name.

[bwamos]

Originally posted by TBD
There is NOT that much difference between the LTfront end( should be called LS for long shock) and the std travel front end as long as the shock builder valves and springs the shocks correctly.
As far as the cost for the LT front end, I know of a couple of companies that make excellent LS front ends that aren't gauging people just because of the name.

Actually long travels are engineered as such, so that the a-arms can extend further than standard ones without the ball joints binding up (max movement). That's why many have the gull wing look. the angle of the arm at the ball joint is less than it is on a standard at the same travel length.

So a LT can travel 11" when a standard can do 8 or 9. An extra 2 inches of travel is huge. You can run much softer.. or you can land much harder.

You're correct in that the difference won't be that much for an average rider.. but for an A-Class or Pro-Class racer it is HUGE. Every little bit helps.

[TBD]

Originally posted by bwamos
Actually long travels are engineered as such, so that the a-arms can extend further than standard ones without the ball joints binding up (max movement). That's why many have the gull wing look. the angle of the arm at the ball joint is less than it is on a standard at the same travel length.

So a LT can travel 11" when a standard can do 8 or 9. An extra 2 inches of travel is huge. You can run much softer.. or you can land much harder.

You're correct in that the difference won't be that much for an average rider.. but for an A-Class or Pro-Class racer it is HUGE. Every little bit helps.
I'm not sure where you got that info and it doesn't matter. I've been designing and building arms for 15 years and I can tell you that what you wrote is incorrect. The standard travel and long shock arms that I've designed both can travel the same. The gull wing design is to be able to use a longer shock. It allows you to fit the shock mount to the arm. My most recent arms the main tube goes over the shock mount for more ground clearance.
To sum it up, you can get the same wheel travel, the same ride characteristics( as long as you have a good shock tuner) and it doesn't make you a faster rider( that is a mental thing).

[Scro]

Originally posted by TBD
I'm not sure where you got that info and it doesn't matter. I've been designing and building arms for 15 years and I can tell you that what you wrote is incorrect. The standard travel and long shock arms that I've designed both can travel the same. The gull wing design is to be able to use a longer shock. It allows you to fit the shock mount to the arm. My most recent arms the main tube goes over the shock mount for more ground clearance.
To sum it up, you can get the same wheel travel, the same ride characteristics( as long as you have a good shock tuner) and it doesn't make you a faster rider( that is a mental thing).

so you are saying that you can get the same travel and same riding characteristics out of a standard travel, that you can out of a LT setup. I may be reading this wrong but, if that were the case, what would be the purpose of designing a LT front end?:confused:

[TBD]

Originally posted by bama450r
so you are saying that you can get the same travel and same riding characteristics out of a standard travel, that you can out of a LT setup. I may be reading this wrong but, if that were the case, what would be the purpose of designing a LT front end?:confused:
It is easier to get the valving and spring rates correct with the longer shocks. My point is that it's not as huge of a difference as some will lead you to believe.

[Zwanter]

you only get so much travel from your shocks until you hit the frame.

Originally posted by TBD
I'm not sure where you got that info and it doesn't matter. I've been designing and building arms for 15 years and I can tell you that what you wrote is incorrect. The standard travel and long shock arms that I've designed both can travel the same. The gull wing design is to be able to use a longer shock. It allows you to fit the shock mount to the arm. My most recent arms the main tube goes over the shock mount for more ground clearance.
To sum it up, you can get the same wheel travel, the same ride characteristics( as long as you have a good shock tuner) and it doesn't make you a faster rider( that is a mental thing).

yep ur exactly right, thats why i went with the std travel :macho

[450 Racer R]

Originally posted by Zwanter
you only get so much travel from your shocks until you hit the frame.

My frame bottoms with burgard +2 std arms and the c&d rebuild with plenty of travel left in the shock. If you look at LT arms and STD arms built by the same company, you'll notice that both designs are just about identical. The only difference is the shock mount on a long travel setup is much lower to accept the longer shock.

[450Rcarbonpro]

I don't care what you say about standard travel. LT is a way better ride period. And yes you can ride faster. The first time I swiched I had my girl friend time me. I gained about 3-5 seconds per lap. That is the first time out. 3 seconds per lap on a 6 lap race is 18 seconds. Don't tell me LT doesn't make you faster. Don't listen to these guy about standard travel or you will regret it. If your still not sure Contact Yawn at Elka suspension. He can accurately fill you in on the differences between the two. Also Yawn has no interest in what arms you use. His info is unbias.

[450Rcarbonpro]

The shock mounts much lower to improve the motion ratio, in turn you get longer shock not the other way around. Also MR. AArm designer what is your company name? No need to hide behind a user name. If you provide good info you should have no problem identifing your company name.

[roostin_dale]

I'm with 450Rcarbonpro...Long Travel makes a huge difference. I had +2's and elka STD. travel on my cannondale...now i have LT Elka on my 450r and it is 10x better...

I dont really care what you guys say, LT is the way to go...

[roostin_dale]

and if standard is just as good, why does EVERY pro run long travel. For all i know, every pro i have seen has Long Travel..

[TBD]

Originally posted by 450Rcarbonpro
The shock mounts much lower to improve the motion ratio, in turn you get longer shock not the other way around. Also MR. AArm designer what is your company name? No need to hide behind a user name. If you provide good info you should have no problem identifing your company name.

No, I won't give the names of the two companies that I'm designing for now.

[TBD]

Originally posted by 450Rcarbonpro
The shock mounts much lower to improve the motion ratio, in turn you get longer shock not the other way around. Also MR. AArm designer what is your company name? No need to hide behind a user name. If you provide good info you should have no problem identifing your company name.

That's right that the motion ratio is lower. I'm more concerned with the leverage curve then the motion ratio.

[Zwanter]

Originally posted by 450 Racer R
My frame bottoms with burgard +2 std arms and the c&d rebuild with plenty of travel left in the shock. If you look at LT arms and STD arms built by the same company, you'll notice that both designs are just about identical. The only difference is the shock mount on a long travel setup is much lower to accept the longer shock.

that was my point........you could have all that travel and not be able to use it.

Originally posted by roostin_dale
and if standard is just as good, why does EVERY pro run long travel. For all i know, every pro i have seen has Long Travel..

because the pros get payed to run the most expensive thing, that way people go out and buy it...:rolleyes:

btw his name is Yan not Yawn lol :macho

[roostin_dale]

Originally posted by XxHonda_RacerxX
because the pros get payed to run the most expensive thing, that way people go out and buy it...:rolleyes:

that, and they run what gives them the best performance..

[honda250xrider]

i have been reading for awhile about long travel, and i think everyone is right somewhat. What i hear alot of people saying is that they perform awesome over your standard travel shocks, well this could be because of how the shocks were vavled as many people have said you can fine tune the long shocks because of how much adjustablity they have, they pretty much give you the same amount of travel, i think the only a-arm that will actually let you have more travel is the laeger t-pin setup. But even then i'm not sure how much more you would get intil your frame would hit the ground. If any body wants to doupt send your standard travel shocks to a known shock builder and have him revalve your shocks and what need to be. I do agree there is some difference in the way they perform but for the most of us they are not needed.

Originally posted by roostin_dale
that, and they run what gives them the best performance..

no they run the company that pays them the most, then the company chooses which parts they run, such as if you were sponsored by laeger, why would they let you run standard a-arms...then all the little kiddies who believe standard is the best go out and buy it, but instead they make them run the t-pin so that when all the kids think this they go out and drop a ton of cash to get them, aka more profit for laeger

[jb500ex]

Originally posted by XxHonda_RacerxX
no they run the company that pays them the most, then the company chooses which parts they run, such as if you were sponsored by laeger, why would they let you run standard a-arms...then all the little kiddies who believe standard is the best go out and buy it, but instead they make them run the t-pin so that when all the kids think this they go out and drop a ton of cash to get them, aka more profit for laeger
not too many pro's get paid by companies for a-arms, so they will run what they think works best.

[450Rcarbonpro]

jb500ex is correct. You should forget the notion that pro's use longtravel because they get paid. Look don't buy standard travel period. Plus you really don't save much money unless you use stock shocks which will not produce the ride you want. For example from elka standard travel or longtravel shocks are same price. some times `100 dollars difference is it. Lt aarms are about 100 more or the same depending on brand. So there is really no savings in buying standard travel. I live in missouri and have two bike one standard travel elkas on yami for crosscountry and Lt on my honda. It is a +3 walsh front end with 20 1/2 inch shocks. The yamis are 16 3/4 inches. The difference in ride is astounding. I can barely stand to ride the yami. The long travel is smooth. Both shocks are built application specific and are spot on on the valving. You can come to missouri and ride both of my bikes and choose for yourself. Do not buy standard travel you will regret it!

[TBD]

The pros run what they can get. They don't go out and test all the arms and then say this one is the best so I will run it. A lot of pros run on teams and in that case it's whatever the team package might be. I'm not just saying this, I run pro know and have for 14 years now. I've dealt with sponsors and you take what you can get. Of course if the product is really bad I'm sure they wouldn't run it.
Of course every person is going to make there own choice on arms but I've been testing standard and long travel for the last year and a half and you can make both work very similar.
450Rcarbonpro, The statement you made about having two quads, one set up with standard and one with long travel is a good one except that there two different models of quads. Plus as far as you know the valving is spot on.
"The best that you've ridden is the best that you know" Paul Thede, RaceTech
Just so you know that I'm not bieng bias, I run long shock arms and prefer to. Not because of performance so much but because that's what the consumer wants to see.

[steveatv3]

i cant belive this is even an arguement longtravel is worth the cash without an unreasonable doubt period!

unless you are using a low grade works LT shock. But id like someone to ride a standard travel aftermarket front end and then get on the same brand LT front end and tell me they are not better and do lap time tests and tell me they arent getting better results.

[honda250xrider]

"The best that you've ridden is the best that you know" Paul Thede, RaceTech

I like that qoute. This has been going on forever what is better long shock or standard, but as it has been explained you do not really gain any travel by the shock but more of the fine tune valving that you can get, But i do beleive if you sent out the standard shock and the long shock to the same shock expert you would not notice a huge difference. As TBD qouted how do all of you know that your standard travel shocks were valved the best that they possibly could be.

[TBD]

Originally posted by steveatv3
i cant belive this is even an arguement longtravel is worth the cash without an unreasonable doubt period!

unless you are using a low grade works LT shock. But id like someone to ride a standard travel aftermarket front end and then get on the same brand LT front end and tell me they are not better and do lap time tests and tell me they arent getting better results.
How much testing have you done to make this statement. Maybe you should change it to a opinion. As stated in my previous post, I have done a lot of testing to come to my conculsion. I'm not saying there isn't a need for the long shock frontend. I'm stating that you and others make this big assumption that it's a huge difference when in reallity it's not. It just makes it easier to get a shock set up right. Or should I say it will make it less noticeable when the shocks are not set up 100 percent correct. The lap time thing has a lot to do with the mental asspect. I have proven that with a couple of pros that I deal with. I told them I made a change when I actually didn't and then was told by them that it made a big difference. I'm just stating what I have found from my testing results.

[steveatv3]

I have had standard travel elkas and tcs setup for my weight and riding. then i switched to quadrate elkas for my weight and riding yes when making all the jumps and landing correctly standard travel is fine. but when you land in the flat or case the jump a little bit you will be glad that you have the LT in cases ware my suspension would have bottomed and i would have flipped over my LT front end does not.

[TBD]

Originally posted by steveatv3
I have had standard travel elkas and tcs setup for my weight and riding. then i switched to quadrate elkas for my weight and riding yes when making all the jumps and landing correctly standard travel is fine. but when you land in the flat or case the jump a little bit you will be glad that you have the LT in cases ware my suspension would have bottomed and i would have flipped over my LT front end does not.
I'm glad that you are happy with your long shock frontend. When I test I eliminate as many variables as possible. We use the same quad and only change the set ups. We use the same course and we use the Shoc Clock(Data aquasition tool) to eliminate rider input. That is why I will stand by my original statement that there is not as big of a difference, if any at all, as a lot of you assume.

[TBD]

Originally posted by steveatv3
I have had standard travel elkas and tcs setup for my weight and riding. then i switched to quadrate elkas for my weight and riding yes when making all the jumps and landing correctly standard travel is fine. but when you land in the flat or case the jump a little bit you will be glad that you have the LT in cases ware my suspension would have bottomed and i would have flipped over my LT front end does not.

One more thing. You suspension should bottom out just not harshly.

[450Racer]

personally, i don't care about numbers, formulas, ratios, or politics. i bought LT elka's with +2 laegar's last year for my 450R. i did a 77' tabletop with stock shocks, i'm 125 pounds, 16 years old. the stock shocks were valved perfect for my weight and riding style but if i came one inch short, things would get MESSY! i did the same jump and came 3 feet short, forgetting about ZPS, i didn't preload and it felt like i perfectly downsided it! i would have easily been over the bars.

i GUARANTEE that if you take long travel's through the whoops, you WILL be able to get through them faster than standard travel. i personally beleive that, you go from 9.5" standard in the front to about 11.5". if i'm doing this correctly, you take
9.5" (standard travel) divided by 11.5" (long travel) and that gives you about 82%. Then you take 100% (long travel) minus 82% (standard). That equals 18%. Theoretically, the long travel will be 18% softer than the standard using all the full travel given. Also, you can't get quad rate springs for standard travel. There's definitly a noticeable difference between triple and quadruple rate springs.

Advantages=18% softer shocks using same alloted travel, another spring for the smaller bumps.

It will also handle much better in the corner. If you try to wheelie with hard vs. soft suspension, it's hard to wheelie with softer suspension because it soaks it up better.

Advantages, smother ride, less wheelying, better handling, more travel, less fatigue, soaks up bumps easier.

For the non-believers of Long Travel, are you saying that these advantages aren't there? I completely agree with 450RCarbonPro, and the other believers.

Gust's team spent $2,000 on lighter titanium springs last year for weight saving of 2.2 pounds. There's NO way they're giving up those advantages for marketing. That's why EVERYONE in the high levels uses long travel.

[TBD]

Well I'm going to stop with this thread. Nothing against young people but it's time to leave when a 16 year old is trying to explain geometry to me and can't get it right in the first place. Hopefully you(450racer) don't take that to personal but you have a lot to learn. Look at it this way, your young and I asume have a lot of time on your hands.

im gonna be testing a LT front end soon, i run stock length right now, i will give a full review to all of you, then you will have an actual unbiased opinion this is also for XC racing

[TBD]

450Racer,
Never said I didn't like LONG SHOCK arms. Just said that with my exprience and testing there isn't that big of a difference as you describe. Where did you get those wheel travel numbers? Way off.

[TBD]

Originally posted by XxHonda_RacerxX
im gonna be testing a LT front end soon, i run stock length right now, i will give a full review to all of you, then you will have an actual unbiased opinion this is also for XC racing
If your going from stock to Long Shock how can you make a opinion on the difference between std and ls. I know I've been discussing the difference between aftermarket std arms and aftermarket long shock arms.

[450Racer]

my explanation sounds fine to me and makes sense. if you have a shock let's say 5 inches of travel and you get a LT front end that gives you 9, which do you think is softer? which will bottom out first? which allows you to make more mistakes? it's obvious that a LT front end is better than standard. just like motors, bigger bore means more hp. i claimed 9.5" in the front end stock. it is actually 8.5", i dont' think an inch is "way off", besides it's ride height adjustable probably up to 9.5", that's where i had mine set. Elka claims 1.25" more wheel travel just with the linkage for the rear plus however much longer travel is attained with the actual shock, say, .75" atleast, coming to two inches. i'm assuming the rear and the front have about the same travel gaines over stock (2", from what elka claims in the rear). where am i way off? me being 16 doesn't make me stupid. if you're going to case a big jump do you want LT or standard? you might want standard but through my experiences, LT has saved my *** many times. there's a 121' single to tabeltop at my local track that a few quads with long travel have tried, i wouldn't dreamed of doing it with 9.5" travel. however, now i have my elka's, i'm going to try to land a bit short and then downside. you'd have to be crazy to jump 121' long with standard shock. for beginners, standard is fine, they probably never even bottom them but for top B/A riders and up, LT is a must.

[450 Racer R]

my frame bottoms out before my rebuilt stock shocks with +2 arms. You don't get more travel out of longtravel shocks. you can only have so much travel before your frame bottoms out

[Mr_400Ex]

First, if some of ya'll would do a search first you'd see that this topic has been discussed and discussed and discussed some more.

While the pro riders may not being getting "paid" by a-arm makers, most of the top pros do not pay for the a-arms they run.

Some of you need to read back to about the 2nd page of this thread. Long travel shocks do not give you more travel than stock arms. On my 400ex that i use to own i purchased a set of TCS for the simple reason that it took the front travel up to over 10" and in fact there wasn't a single long travel setup at that time that had more. Some setups, like roll's lobo 2 actually have less travel than this.

What long travels do though (as said in the last few pages) is allow the shock builder to have more freedom in valving the shock. The builder has a greater motion ratio to work with and this allows the shim stack (or check ball if your running works or peps) to have more progression it in.

It has its advantages, but if you let someone like wayne at peps valve your setup you most likely wouldn't be able to tell a great difference from either setup.

But hey, if you read the thread from the beginning you wouldn't need to read this.

Mr_400ex

[honda250xrider]

450racer it sounds as if u think that if u have long travel you will make the jump, to me it seems like you have the mental thing going for you and actually thinking that i guess is alright but like stated many times above you do not gain more travel in the front with long travel shocks, like many say they are just long body shocks that can be fine tuned easier.

Originally posted by TBD
If your going from stock to Long Shock how can you make a opinion on the difference between std and ls. I know I've been discussing the difference between aftermarket std arms and aftermarket long shock arms.

im not buying 1, im riding my friends valved for my weight, we weigh the same, then riding mine, see the difference

[Mxracer53]

Actually it makes sence to run long travel even though they have very noticable differences it's more expensive to use standard becase the valving.

[tamehart]

I am with 450rRacer and Steveatv3. I have ran
+3 Arms with Elkas
+2 Arms with Elkas
+3 Arms (LT) with Elkas.
All on the exact same four wheeler, with same everything

By far the Long Travel has made me a much smoother rider. Someone said that your frame bottoms out the same with either. they would make sense because you arms can only travel up so far. My LT arms sag more than my standard front end. I believe a longer shock has the ability to soak up more bumps. I am no expert and my opinions are based on my own testing. But that is my OPINION.

[bwamos]

I withdraw my earlier post. I guess the Logn travel shocks/arms have the same travel as a standard one and there's no advantage to them other than ease of tuning. And an LT arm is nothing more than an arm with the mounting point moved closer to the wheel so the shock is a little longer? I do not use LT's. I've been using the same old standards for years. So, if you guys say the travel is identical than I'll take your word for it.

Guess I had better break out my AutoCAD and ProE and get to designing some arms that will actually increase travel.

As a note to those whw said you can't make them travel more because your frame would bottom out.. who the heck said anything about adding upward travel. You add downward travel so the shocks/arms extend further down when you are in the air.

Basically if you have 6" travel up, and 4" travel down (10" travel) why could an a-arm & ball joint system not be designed to give you 6" travel up and 8" travel down (14" travel).

[bwamos]

Comments like these:

=LSRacing.com
Ball joints have 1/3 more travel than stock or typical after market ball joints. Using this longer travel ball joint allows us to offer aftermarket A-Arms made in +1" widths for the cross-country riders.



=Houser Racing
Long Travel Arms - Have increased wheel travel and requires longer shocks.



=TotalPerformance
It is designed for use with a Long Travel 18 1/4 Inch Zero Preload Shock and has up to 13 inches of REAL Travel when matchwith the correct shock.


=atving.com
Brad (Herrmann of Herrmann Racing) claims 12+ inches of travel with these arms depending on the shock set-up.
Note: the above quote is refering to a 250R.

Also it's photos like this that lead me to beleive that Long Travel A-Arms to travel further than standard a-arms.

[xc400ex]

I race A class in the woods in the midsouth series and I ran herrman standard width long travel a arms with 19in elka shock, I made the switch to stock a arms and standard elka shocks. Theres not a whole lot of difference but I do prefer stock a arms and elka shocks .Of course everyone is going to argue long travel is better, they all rode on stock shocks and a arms then went to long travel with aftermarket shocks, naturally that would be a much better ride, but very few of you have owned a set of elka's on standarm arms and a set of elka's on long travel arms.

[CannondaleRider]

I know I don't own a 450R, but I saw this and just had to chime in.

Everybody is saying the travel differance is hardly noticable? HOW IS THAT????

As you can see in my sig...we have multiple Cannondales. At a time, 1 had a standard travel Blaze front end, 1 had a Long Travel Moto front end with stock LT Ohlins, and 1 had a Long Travel Moto front end with PEP Quad rates. If you looked at the Blaze front end, the shocks were completely topped out while sitting, and the clearance was about 9 inches. Then you look at the LT front ends, they sit the same.....UNTIL YOU PIC THE FRONT END UP. When you top out the shocks you have A LOT more clearance.

Yeah, your frame will hit the same LT or Standard, but you guys are missing something. Say your coming off a jump. your shocks top out in the air(of course) and you have that Standard travel 9 inches to work with. When you land, theres only 9 inches for your valving to work and "absorb" the landing, before your frame hits.....now on a LT front end, you go off the same jump, your shocks top out......look at how much lower the LT a-arms are compared to the standard, you just have that much more room for your valving to do its thing and absorb the landing before the frame hits. Same thing when your on the gas coming up to a square edge, when your on the gas the suspension is topped out.....same thing as above.

Even IF(big If) there was no differance, you can't put Quad rate springs on a 16" shock, just the advantage with LT there is great.

Now for just the "feeling" test, obviously i've rode on both the Blaze front end(standard travel, 16" Ohlins, Piggy-Back, Compression/Rebound Adj. Shocks) and the Moto front end(Long travel, 19" Ohlins, Piggy-Back, Compression/Rebound Adj. Shocks)......After riding both THERE IS NO F*CKING WAY you can tell me that Long travel isn't an advantage.

You can throw all these numbers at me, you can throw your years of "experiance" at me(even if its more years then me), and you can throw your general opinions at me.........I have rode both and will never in my life believe that there is barly any difference in LT vs. Standard

P.S. And about all the BS you guys are talking about the Pros running the LT arms because of advertising.....:rolleyes: Do you think i'm gonna put out 1,200 dollars for a stock Moto front end or 2,500 dollars for an Aftermarket LT front end because Natalie runs LT? Because Gust runs LT? Byrd? Ellis?......hell no, i'm gonna run LT because i've rode LT and theres no comparison.:)

[roostin_dale]

I am gunna agree with CannondaleRider.

I have owned a few quads with +2 or +3 a-arms and standard three rate elkas. And an LT setup is 10x better.

and yes, i did have all the setups valved right..

well if TBD is who i think he is you guys should listen, becuase alot of you might be ridding on his suspension. also if he is who i think he is he just designed some arms for a major player that just entered the atv scene. but i could be wrong. he is correct in the fact that long travel in most cases DOES NOT mean more travel then the std shock length arms. It is able to use a LONGER SHOCK. it is better but not some super power as everyone thinks.

[TBD]

You guys think what you want but here it is. We've run the numbers through numerous programs. The only thing you're gaining by going 'long shock" is a lower motion ratio. If you guys knew anything about geometry and the way a shock works you would understand that the motion ratio is a very small part of making the shock work correctlly. The reason that most shock builders go with multiple springs is to make the shock do all the proggression work. Proggresion is the key to having a soft ride for the first part of the travel but will allow the shock to firm up for the big hits and landings. After running the numbers for the YFZ "long shock" frontend(18.25" shock) we found that the leverage curve was no longer there(almost perfectlly flat). We ran the numbers for the stock front end and found a 24 percent increase in the leverage curve. That is why some of the better shock builders can get away with running a dual rate or single proggressive springs. From the training and testing that I have, I would rather run suspension that has a good leverage curve rather then a low motion ratio. As far as wheel travel goes, I have said it before and I will say it again, I can get the same wheel travel from both set ups. Believe it or not but I have been building and testing suspension for fifteen years. How long have you guys been doing it for?

[CannondaleRider]

Like I said, you can through all of these numbers and terms at me...............i have rode both, and with my "seat of the pants" comparison, I choose long travel

[TBD]

Originally posted by CannondaleRider
Like I said, you can through all of these numbers and terms at me...............i have rode both, and with my "seat of the pants" comparison, I choose long travel
If it works for you great. You should use what you feel is the best. All I'm stating is that "LT" frontends are not that special as everyone believes, just as rawdeal stated. Also for your type of ridding, the more linear feel that you get from the "Long shock" frontend will work better in the desert type terrain. The other thing you should realize is that because most people believe "Long shock" frontends are so much better most shock builders concentrate more of there testing and devolopement with the long shocks. I design and build long shock front ends because that is what the consumer wants. You build the parts that will sell.

the bottom line is it is not long travel ......LONG SHOCK.... if you think long shock front ends work better for you great. I think all TBD is saying is that it is not much diff, and does not offer longer travel. Hey tbd did i see you at ecp the other week?

[TBD]

Originally posted by rawdeal
the bottom line is it is not long travel ......LONG SHOCK.... if you think long shock front ends work better for you great. I think all TBD is saying is that it is not much diff, an long any more travel. Hey tbd did i see you at ecp the other week?
How's it going? I'll send you a pm.

[86atc250r]

CannondaleRider -

You are not comparing apples to apples.

You are comparing a completely different front end setup to your Moto setup -- there are a lot more factors involved than the length of the shock in the setups that you are comparing.

You want a real apples to apples comparison? Build a set of arms with mounts for both length shocks that set the bottommed out and extended frame heights exactly the same for both shocks.

Next make sure that the spring sets on both shocks yeild the same resistance for the leverage ratios encountered. Also make sure the valving is the same for the leverage ratios (at least as close as possible).

Then go out and ride them. Analyze them for a long time.

If the shaft lengths are the same (which they are on many LT vs STD setups) you will NOT note any appreciable differences between the two sets of shocks.

If you've got a long body shock setup that does offer longer shaft travel - then you will notice a small difference favoring the shock with the longer shaft due to the valving and springing requirements being more forgiving on the higher shaft velocity setup.

You guys should listen to TBD - very few in the industry will tell you the truth about "LT" shocks.

[xc400ex]

exactly!

[CannondaleRider]

Originally posted by 86atc250r
CannondaleRider -

You are not comparing apples to apples.

You are comparing a completely different front end setup to your Moto setup -- there are a lot more factors involved than the length of the shock in the setups that you are comparing.

You want a real apples to apples comparison? Build a set of arms with mounts for both length shocks that set the bottommed out and extended frame heights exactly the same for both shocks.

Next make sure that the spring sets on both shocks yeild the same resistance for the leverage ratios encountered. Also make sure the valving is the same for the leverage ratios (at least as close as possible).

Then go out and ride them. Analyze them for a long time.

If the shaft lengths are the same (which they are on many LT vs STD setups) you will NOT note any appreciable differences between the two sets of shocks.

If you've got a long body shock setup that does offer longer shaft travel - then you will notice a small difference favoring the shock with the longer shaft due to the valving and springing requirements being more forgiving on the higher shaft velocity setup.

You guys should listen to TBD - very few in the industry will tell you the truth about "LT" shocks.

Ok, so you build custom LT a-arms that have the exact same shock mounts, leverage ratios, etc. as a set of standard travel..............kind defeats the purpose doesnt it.

If you were to do that, there would be no purpose because you totally changed the idea of the LT a-arm.......LT arms are built a certain way for a reason, so moving the mount around, changing leverage ratios etc. is just changing the LT a-arm to something different.

Doing a comparison of STOCK LONG TRAVEL A-ARMS AND STOCK STANDARD TRAVEL A-ARMS is more sensible to me...because you see the benefits of the LT...if you change the LT arm, then you don't

I'm done with this, I believe Long TRAVEL is better, i've rode both, i've seen both work, i've seen how much faster people are with Long Travel, i've seen and felt how much farther you can jump and push the front end with Long Travel............its all opinion I guess.

I'm sticking with LT, you stick with Standard....whatever. As long as your riding...thats what matters

[86atc250r]

Re-read my post, more carefully next time - make sure to understand the concepts being discussed before posting a response that exposes what you do not understand.

Nowhere did I say to use the same mounts for both shocks, or the same leverage ratios.

[CannondaleRider]

OK, my mistake...........early 3:00 AM reading f*cked with my head, lol.

Now that i'm fully awake.....

"Build a set of arms with mounts for both length shocks that set the bottommed out and extended frame heights exactly the same for both shocks."

Just that alone takes out the factor of Long Travel......LT has more travel. And don't tell me it doesn't. And i'm talking about extended travel, yes the frame hits the same no matter what front end you have....but LT extends a lot farther. If you made them both the same, then the LT front end would no longer be LT....it would be a waste of shocks.

"If the shaft lengths are the same (which they are on many LT vs STD setups) you will NOT note any appreciable differences between the two sets of shocks."

IF.....IF, I've seen lots of different shocks, STD FX400 Ohlins, STD Blaze Ohlins, STD Elka Elites, LT Moto Ohlins, LT PEP Quad Rates, LT Elka Elites............theres no way the shaft lengths are the same.....unless STD Ohlins are some odd as shaft length, theres no way STD vs. LT is the same.

I've read a few times in here that its easier to get the shock setup right, because of the larger amount of adjustability......f*ck, even if the travel was the same STD vs. LT, just the adjustability AND the ability to us a 4th spring is an advantage.

Alright, you can argue your point as long as you want....I can argue mine as long as I want.......we're all stuborn so we'll never get anywhere. I'm not happy with STD, and i'm extremely happy with LT.....Your happy with STD alone, and your fine not having LT..thats your opinion.

I'm dead set on LT, thats it.

[Jersey450R]

Originally posted by CannondaleRider

Yeah, your frame will hit the same LT or Standard, but you guys are missing something. Say your coming off a jump. your shocks top out in the air(of course) and you have that Standard travel 9 inches to work with. When you land, theres only 9 inches for your valving to work and "absorb" the landing, before your frame hits.....now on a LT front end, you go off the same jump, your shocks top out......look at how much lower the LT a-arms are compared to the standard, you just have that much more room for your valving to do its thing and absorb the landing before the frame hits. Same thing when your on the gas coming up to a square edge, when your on the gas the suspension is topped out.....same thing as above.



I dont know about you guys, but this is the most most convincing, logical explanation so far. :ermm:

[86atc250r]

I dont know about you guys, but this is the most most convincing, logical explanation so far.

It might be if you don't understand or haven't taken the time to actually measure things out.

[Jersey450R]

Originally posted by 86atc250r
It might be if you don't understand or haven't taken the time to actually measure things out.
hmm...

[Out_Sider]

i know ppl always argue and say the difference is zero to none, but I'm gonna be running Walsh A34 arms on my 450r and if standard travel was the same, why doesn't walsh even offer a standard travel front end? I think Walsh is one of the best suspension techs in all of ATV Racing. Is he just doing this because its what ppl want to see and will buy, or is it just because it is Better?

Either way i'm buy walsh Lt's no matter what ya'll say, lol, i just want to know.

[86atc250r]

OK, my mistake...........early 3:00 AM reading f*cked with my head, lol.

Now that i'm fully awake.....

"Build a set of arms with mounts for both length shocks that set the bottommed out and extended frame heights exactly the same for both shocks."

Just that alone takes out the factor of Long Travel......LT has more travel. And don't tell me it doesn't. And i'm talking about extended travel, yes the frame hits the same no matter what front end you have....but LT extends a lot farther. If you made them both the same, then the LT front end would no longer be LT....it would be a waste of shocks.


No - on several levels.

Leverage ratio and shaft travel determines wheel travel.

The control arm builder determines where that travel happens (i.e. extended and compressed frame heights)

You can build a front end with 15" of travel with 5" long shocks and you can build a front end with 8" of travel with a 19" shock.

And that example completely ignores shaft travel numbers.

Up and down travel are set by the control arm builder and are completely independent of the shock length used.



"If the shaft lengths are the same (which they are on many LT vs STD setups) you will NOT note any appreciable differences between the two sets of shocks."

IF.....IF, I've seen lots of different shocks, STD FX400 Ohlins, STD Blaze Ohlins, STD Elka Elites, LT Moto Ohlins, LT PEP Quad Rates, LT Elka Elites............theres no way the shaft lengths are the same.....unless STD Ohlins are some odd as shaft length, theres no way STD vs. LT is the same.


Have you measured them? I have, and they are on several of the fronts - or are at least very close on many non-cannondale front ends (I can double check the c-dale fronts as we still have a moto - but frankly, who really cares about c-dale fronts anymore?), within a 1/4" or so when comparing 19" shocks vs 16" shocks. The bodys are simply longer, which is also why the mounts are lower in the control arm - if that were not the case, the low mounts would cause the frame to hit the ground when the shocks bottommed out.

I have one set of 16" shocks that has 5.75" of shaft travel, and I have a set of 19" shocks (PEP) that have 5.5" of shaft travel.




I've read a few times in here that its easier to get the shock setup right, because of the larger amount of adjustability......f*ck, even if the travel was the same STD vs. LT, just the adjustability AND the ability to us a 4th spring is an advantage.


The ability of using a longer spring set is a small advantage that is exploited sometimes by the shock builder.

More forgiving valving & springing is only an advantage if the actual shaft travel is longer and the leverage ratio is lowered. If the shaft travel is longer and is not used to decrease the leverage ratio, but is used instead to garner more travel, then there is no advantage as far as valving is concerned.




Alright, you can argue your point as long as you want....I can argue mine as long as I want.......we're all stuborn so we'll never get anywhere. I'm not happy with STD, and i'm extremely happy with LT.....Your happy with STD alone, and your fine not having LT..thats your opinion.

I'm dead set on LT, thats it.

You can argue yours with no data to back yourself & the assertion that it is simply better based on, well, guessing, all you like I suppose.

When you're dead set on something and aren't willing to listen to logic or reason - there's not much sense in even discussing the topic.

FWIW, everything in our universe is regulated by certain physical laws and mathematics.

I guess the argument can be made that they are simply better because you've ridden an apples to oranges comparison and the "LT" front simply feels better.

Personally, I'm not speaking from a theoretical position only - I've owned LT setups as well as standard setups. I race, heck, I took a top 20 position in the 12hrs of America on a Cannondale Moto. The next year I took a top 15 position on a 400ex.

I have a standard setup on a 450R and a standard setup on a 400ex that you can ride right next to the LT setup on our Moto -- and if you based all your beliefs on that experience alone, you'd swear that "LT" is junk --- but again, that wouldn't be an apples to apples comparison, either.

[86atc250r]

hy doesn't walsh even offer a standard travel front end?

Why? Because the market simply BELIEVES that "LT" is better as evidence by this or any other LT vs Std thread.

Put yourself in Walsh's shoes.

Lets say you knew for a fact that there was zero advantage (which I'm not saying is the case 100% of the time - I'm just throwing some facts out there and trying to help people understand --- think about it, what do I have to gain from any of this? NOTHING but having to argue with people who haven't even taken the time to actually measure anything). Now lets say you were going to market your products as "The best", would you try to convince the market that the 16" setups are really just as good as the 19" setups, or would you "go with the flow", not try to stir any controversy, and rake in the extra dollars for selling "LT" at higher prices than manufacturers can typically get for "std" setups?

It's not to difficult to figure out, even if you have no understanding of the physics involved.

TBD even said the same thing just a few posts back about the LT stuff he makes - he makes it because the market wants it - whether it really does much or not.

[CannondaleRider]

Like I said before....everyone can throw numbers and terms at me, and your opinions.

Just for the gained clearence for desert..and the gained travel for all forms of riding I do, I will stick with Long Travel

I've ridden STD and LT stock Cannondales, PEP LT Cannondale, and STD and LT Jannsen/Elka Elite 450R's......I believe LT is better

Thats it....i BELIEVE lt is better....you BELIEVE std is better, its all what you prefer.

I'm gonna stick with Long Travel whether you say its an advantage or not.

i have always felt that standard is just as good as LT, but that the only advantage to LT is the adjustability, the valving, and possibly the shock angle you get with the new LT arms vs stock arms, but i also feel that if you send the standard shocks out to a good valving company, such as precision concepts, or derisi, etc, that you could acheive the same performance you could with the LT, i may be wrong, i have never rode LT, this is just how i feel

xxhonda is right on. cannondale rider i think you are missing the point. nobody is saying std is better. i think tbd and others are just saying long SHOCK is not worth the money for most people. some peole have the $500 or more extra to spend or want that small advantage great.also i dont know why you cannot get it through your head LT does not have more travel in most cases.

[CannondaleRider]

Originally posted by rawdeal
xxhonda is right on. cannondale rider i think you are missing the point. nobody is saying std is better. i think tbd and others are just saying long SHOCK is not worth the money for most people. some peole have the $500 or more extra to spend or want that small advantage great.also i dont know why you cannot get it through your head LT does not have more travel in most cases.

FOR MOST PEOPLE...apparently i'm not most people, because it is well worth it to me.

Everybody keeps saying "In most cases"...well with the cases I'VE DELT WITH everyones opinions are not true, maybe YOUR CASES are different...stop telling me what i'm saying is wrong. I've delt with MY CASES and know what the factors in MY CASES are.

:mad:

[TBD]

Originally posted by XxHonda_RacerxX
i have always felt that standard is just as good as LT, but that the only advantage to LT is the adjustability, the valving, and possibly the shock angle you get with the new LT arms vs stock arms, but i also feel that if you send the standard shocks out to a good valving company, such as precision concepts, or derisi, etc, that you could acheive the same performance you could with the LT, i may be wrong, i have never rode LT, this is just how i feel
You are correct. The standard shock would take a little more effort to get dailed in but once you did it would work just as good and maybe even a little better. My standard arms and my Long shock arms do have the same wheel travel as well as the same drop out. The big difference is that you would not need quad or triple rate springs anymore because the arms themselves will have the progression built into them instead of having to build progression into the shock.

[Prey]

i admitt i definately have a lot to learn about suspension and setup

but then why do all the pro's run a lt 3 or 4 setup??

[TBD]

Originally posted by Prey
i admitt i definately have a lot to learn about suspension and setup

but then why do all the pro's run a lt 3 or 4 setup??
There haven't been many pro's that I have dealt with that trully understand how the suspension works. They just know how to go fast no matter what there on. Of course if it is a really poor set up it would make a difference. The other thing is that the shock builders and arm manufactures are putting a lot of effort into the long shock set ups so there has been a lot of devolepment progress with it. I myself am going to work more with some of the std set ups because of the better leverage curves that already exsist.

[Mxracer53]

i still think if your gioing to spend money go lt because its cheaper. here jb a-arms lt $750 Custom axis shocks $1300
jb a-arms std $690 elkas $1070 and then whatevre your valving cost.:eek2:

[TBD]

Originally posted by Mxracer53
i still think if your gioing to spend money go lt because its cheaper. here jb a-arms lt $750 Custom axis shocks $1300
jb a-arms std $690 elkas $1070 and then whatevre your valving cost.:eek2:
Rated X Motorsports "Long shock" arms $695.00 and TCS shocks( TCS gets the valving right the first time) $950.00. A good shock builder can get the standard set up right with out a lot of additional cost.

[Prey]

Originally posted by TBD
I myself am going to work more with some of the std set ups because of the better leverage curves that already exsist.

why does the standard travel have better leverage curves? what is it about the shock mount point that would cause this to be?


thanks

oh ya, keep it kinda simple, like i said im no shock engineer, just trying to learn

[Mxracer53]

yeh but didnt you say early if you send std to a place deresis racing or percision concepts it would as good ad a lt? well how much would that run.

[Prey]

i will say this about std travel from my own expierence.

my 310R has laegers +2 std travel a-arms with dual rate PEP shocks and a tcs rebuilt rear and the thing rides like a freakin dream.

i bought the 450 already setup, i could hardly wait to get it cause of the long travel front and rear. the front was so stiff i couldnt keep my thumb on the throttle in the rough sections and the rear is so soft it bottoms on every single.

if i never owned the 310R i may not have known better, but riding the 2 is why i sent everything off of the 450R to precision concepts. at this point, i am just hoping allen white can get it to ride comparable to the 310R

ya i have elkas on my 450r, def sending them to him, ive heard great things :macho

[Prey]

despite my sig, i have elka's as well with +3 motoquad a-arms

i had the laeger's/axis here at my house, but they were +2 instead of +3 (i already have the 4-1 hiper fronts), when i called to correct it, they guy was pissed and told me to either buy 3-2 rims or send it all back, so i sent it back, took the elka's to allen last week and ordered epic a-arms

[TBD]

Originally posted by Prey
why does the standard travel have better leverage curves? what is it about the shock mount point that would cause this to be?


thanks

oh ya, keep it kinda simple, like i said im no shock engineer, just trying to learn
The reason the standard mount shock set up has a better leverage curve is because when the suspension is dropped out you will notice that the shock has a lot of angle to it in relation to the arm. When it goes to the bottomend out position you will notice that the shock is almost 90 degrees with the arm. As with any lever, the closer you get to 90 degrees the faster the lever will be moving. So that means that with the standard mount arm your shock shaft speed increases as you get closer to bottom. Shaft speed in relation to arm speed is what creates a leverage curve. With "Long shock" frontends the shaft speed and the arm speed stay relativelly the same all the way through its stroke. That is why it doesn't really have a leverage curve. That is also why they use multiple spring rates to create a leverage curve.

[TBD]

Originally posted by Mxracer53
yeh but didnt you say early if you send std to a place deresis racing or percision concepts it would as good ad a lt? well how much would that run.
What I meant is that if you already have them send them to a good tuner to have them valved and sprung. If you're buying them new then just order them from a builder that has it figured out.

[Scro]

Originally posted by TBD
What I meant is that if you already have them send them to a good tuner to have them valved and sprung. If you're buying them new then just order them from a builder that has it figured out.

Are you talking about the companies or someone local?

[jlm996s]

TBD or Gabe: If you were going to buy new shocks and arms for harescramble racing....what would you get and why?

Thanks.

[TBD]

Originally posted by bama450r
Are you talking about the companies or someone local?
If you're buying new then I'm talking about the shock manufactures and if you already have shocks then I would recomend someone like Precision Concepts, C&D, Derisi, Quadshop or RaceTech and so-on.

[86atc250r]

What are you looking to do with replacing the arms? Adjustability? Assuming, knowing the terrain you aren't wanting to go wider.

If adjustability, check into the upper only kit from JD Performance - that way you can retain the stock lowers for inexpensive replacement and still have caster and camber adjustments.

As far as shocks - lots of choices -- shoot me an e-mail.

[TBD]

Originally posted by jlm996s
TBD or Gabe: If you were going to buy new shocks and arms for harescramble racing....what would you get and why?

Thanks.
I'm a little bias when it comes to a-arms since I design for two a-arm manufactures. As for shocks I would suggest TCS. The price is right and Todd really has a good set up program. If you're going to buy Elkas then I would suggest you buy them from Precision Concepts so the set up will be correct.

[Mxracer53]

so what manufactuers or what a-arms dou think are good for mx

[TBD]

Originally posted by Mxracer53
so what manufactuers or what a-arms dou think are good for mx
I like Roll Design. I've known Doug since he started and he builds really nice components along with knowing a great deal about geometry. A little pricey. Laeger has also been building nice parts for along time. Walsh is another that I like. If you're interested in the arms that I've designed then check out Rated X Motorsports or Ishock.

[quadjeff]

Holz arms with axis shocks. Ask Adam Mcghill at the next XC race. Mark carriers Axis and will have a 100 sets of Fox in october. He alraedy has fox on his honda and has them working just as good as his axis. Like I said just talk to adam he will give you the spill.... or mak at www.holzracingproducts.com Good luck..