Cam and Piston

[rainman 05400ex]

Alright I got the HC stage 2 cam on the way as well as a Weisco 13.1-1 piston and a rev box. I already have DMC alien full(on it when I bought it), K&N, Dynojet and the lid cut. Stock tires and gearing. I also just bought the Honda manuel.

What I need to know are any things to watch out for in the tear down reassembly as well as anything else to make this 450R really scream.

I am aware of the port and polish but I wonder how much gain that will give. Also what octane to run 110 is readily avalible here.

Any help or heads up to make this process easier and less painless would be appreciated.

[370kingR]

Rainman,

The very best thing i think i can recommend would be is a service manual. They are like 40-50$ and that is probably the best first thing you can do. You will need it for torque specs and just general knowledge on "how to".

As for the octane thing, im confident in saying you could use 93-94 premium pump gas. If you have available and dont mind spending the extra money, there would be np problems running leaded 100-110 octane race fuel either. Just stay away from the cheap 100.00 hi-rev cdi boxes. All those 100 dollar, give or take a few bucks, are made by one company, pro com, and merchants put their name on it. They are no good and will actually cause problems from advancing the timing too much which causes detonation. Stick with your stock cdi or go with a dyna fs ignition.

[trost66]

If your putting a 13-1 high compression piston in. I wouldn't run anthing under 110 octane

Originally posted by trost66
If your putting a 13-1 high compression piston in. I wouldn't run anthing under 110 octane

its a water cooled, he will be fine on premium

[ohguy79]

Water cooled has nothing to do with what fuel to run. Compression does. High compression is the only reason you have to run higher octane fuel. With pump gas you may run into detination which will result in motor damage. You may be able to get away with a 50/50 mix. I wouldn't run straight pump gas in it if it was mine.

[ESrider]

I wouldn't go higher than 12:1 on 94 octane pump gas. You might be able to get away with mixing it 50:50 with 110 race fuel, but I would try it straight and mixed just to be sure you don't have any detonation problems.

[rainman 05400ex]

Thanks for the help.

I got the Honda manual on the way and after putting this post all over the net I am gonna stick with the stock CDI for now. I have easy access to 110 so I should'nt have a problem.

No Kaboom 4 me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mikes450r]

Originally posted by XxHonda_RacerxX
its a water cooled, he will be fine on premium

I hope no one reads this post and believes it..I would hate for someone to kill their motor because of a nonsense post like that..

No doubt about it you HAVE to run some kind of race gas with a 13:1 piston..

Originally posted by mikes450r
I hope no one reads this post and believes it..I would hate for someone to kill their motor because of a nonsense post like that..

No doubt about it you HAVE to run some kind of race gas with a 13:1 piston..

thats not true, my friend runs his on premium and its fine, it all depends on what state you live in, the octane of premium is different in some states

[TRXDresh]

Water cooling has nothing to do with the combustion event (where did you get that from?). Your friends bike might be detonating, yet you can't hear it. Over time, low octane fuel and high compression causes huge valvetrain issues.

Originally posted by TRXDresh
Water cooling has nothing to do with the combustion event (where did you get that from?). Your friends bike might be detonating, yet you can't hear it. Over time, low octane fuel and high compression causes huge valvetrain issues.

i never said it did, im saying water cooling allows you to run a higher compression then an air cooled would, and it is not detonating, it all depends where you live on the octane of gas you get, like texas is getting almost 94 octane, oregan is getting 92.5 octane, etc, etc, so technically i could run my 13:1 450r on premium and it wouldnt detonate, while someone somewhere else could do the same thing and it would detonate

[TRXDresh]

Dude you make absolutely no sense. 93 OCTANE is 93 octane no matter where you live. The only place I know of that has any problem with the amount of impurities in the fuel is Florida, and that is because of the moisture content in the air, which corrodes the tank surfaces, and allows rust into the reservoir. Octane rating is deterermined by how much the fuel can be compressed before it ignites, without a spark. It is measured against controlled values, so octane is always measured with the same parameters. Bottom line is anything over 12:1 compression could benefit from race fuel. For anything over 13:1 compression, it is stupid not to run race fuel. It is cheap insurance for a good running motor. It also makes it start a hell of a lot easier.

Originally posted by TRXDresh
Dude you make absolutely no sense. 93 OCTANE is 93 octane no matter where you live. The only place I know of that has any problem with the amount of impurities in the fuel is Florida, and that is because of the moisture content in the air, which corrodes the tank surfaces, and allows rust into the reservoir. Octane rating is deterermined by how much the fuel can be compressed before it ignites, without a spark. It is measured against controlled values, so octane is always measured with the same parameters. Bottom line is anything over 12:1 compression could benefit from race fuel. For anything over 13:1 compression, it is stupid not to run race fuel. It is cheap insurance for a good running motor. It also makes it start a hell of a lot easier.

thats not true, read the new sport compact car, they do octane tests with the most accurate octane tester in the united states, it proves that wrong, it also proves the differances in octane boosters etc, its a very good read :macho i learned a lot i didnt even kno about

[cals400ex]

the overlap of the cam has a lot to do with what fuel you need to run. many who run large overlap cams can be safe with 93 with 13:1

however, on the stock cam and a 12:1 piston may be pushing it for 93

[370kingR]

Originally posted by XxHonda_RacerxX
thats not true, read the new sport compact car, they do octane tests with the most accurate octane tester in the united states, it proves that wrong, it also proves the differances in octane boosters etc, its a very good read :macho i learned a lot i didnt even kno about

Dude, im sorry but you dont really understand engines as well as you think you do.

Look i dont want to start anything with you, but your posts, although im sure intended to help, do not help.

I have been building engines since i was 14 and im 31 now. I will not sit here and tell you i know everything because i dont. What i do know, and im sure of, i post to help others. I think you give your opinion and not a single fact seems to come from you.

The last thread i saw you on was the "pipe" thread and you were WAY out of line then. You could use a lesson in "engines 101" sometime. I tend to think you must be under 18 years old and have yet to experience any serious engine builds yet you post with such confidence.

[chad502ex]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

When you have a technical debate that needs answering- you should be asking me for clarification :macho

i'm just kidding, but maybe I can help. Instead of going back and forth arguing and offering no technical information on octane- why not spend two seconds on a Google search.


Octane number is a measure of the antiknock quality of gasoline — the ability of the gasoline to resist knocking when it is burned in an engine. There are two laboratory tests to measure octane that are run in a single-cylinder engine operated under different conditions: Research octane number (RON) and Motor octane number (MON). The octane number posted on U.S. gasoline dispensers in service stations is the antiknock index (AKI) — the average of RON and MON [(RON + MON)/2, usually abbreviated (R + M)/2]. The AKI was chosen as the posted value in the U.S. because experience showed it to be the best indicator of the antiknock performance of gasoline in the majority of U.S. vehicles. In other parts of the world, RON frequently is posted on the pump.

[chadmel]

If the opinions here are confusing you, I'd go "straight to the horse's mouth". Make a couple of phone calls to the top level engine builder's out there, i.e. Sparks or TC among others. I've never had anyone recommend pump gas on 13:1 compression. I've got 12:1 compression and I run 110 octane. Could I run less. Probably, maybe a 50:50 mix, but I personally don't think it's worth the chance. I want to run the highest octane I can and still have the motor properly ignite the fuel.

As far as the liquid cooled theory goes, it is going to help decrease internal temperature, so the octanes not going to play as large of a factor there. But, compression justifies the octane. I've got a local race shop that sells race fuel and when buying it, he doesn't care what aftermarket parts or machine that you've got. The only question he asks is what compression are you running. Hopefully your buying into this, but hell, I could be "full of ****" just as much as anyone else. Give those engine builder's a call, they'll get you squared away. Hope this helps.

Originally posted by 370kingR
Dude, im sorry but you dont really understand engines as well as you think you do.

Look i dont want to start anything with you, but your posts, although im sure intended to help, do not help.

I have been building engines since i was 14 and im 31 now. I will not sit here and tell you i know everything because i dont. What i do know, and im sure of, i post to help others. I think you give your opinion and not a single fact seems to come from you.

The last thread i saw you on was the "pipe" thread and you were WAY out of line then. You could use a lesson in "engines 101" sometime. I tend to think you must be under 18 years old and have yet to experience any serious engine builds yet you post with such confidence.

uh....huh....:huh i guess sport compact car and the most accurate octane tester in the US is lien then...:confused:

[2004exrider]

simple as this 11:1 and under- 93 octane
anything above- race fuel

[RedRacer44]

I live in Oklahoma, just DIRECTLY south of Kansas.....the best gas you can buy in the state is from QuikTrip as far as pump gas goes. Its 93 octane and its usually always fresh. I've got a 13:1 piston and I've been involved with a few other motor builds that used 12:1 or higher compression pistons. From my experience, high compression and low octane fuel = problems!

I can attest that UNLESS YOU HAVE DID SOME WORK TO YOUR CYLINDER or you have a cam with A LOT OF OVERLAP that allows for high compression/lower octane fuel, race gas is MUST in high compression for performance, reliability and longevity (spelling) for the motor. I've tried running 50/50 mix of 110 octane and QuikTrip 93 octane at the dunes several times to save on $$ but my bike ran OK but nothing like if I run straight race gas. Higher octane fuels supposedly run "cooler" due to no detonation, but I'm not sure if this is true :confused: Just what I heard though....

I'm not an engine builder but from my experience, I can tell ya that you will want to run race fuel in high compression piston equipped motors. My local engine builder stresses this to all his customers that he builds "race" motors for.....

Just my 2 cents :D

[450ar]

piston cooling nozzle. They (450r) have em just like the big rigs. just a neato fact. I would still recomend race gas with a high compression piston. I just feel that there is more lea-way with this machine. Then the older motors, exspecialy 2 strokes. But still run race gas. Did i mention to run race gas? Well run race gas.

one more thing. This octane tester, what did it test,... octane? haha. There is no octane in fuel. Octane was a chemical (that burned) They used it as a control. If tested fuel had the same antiknock as octane is was given a 100% octane rating. If it had less then gave it a percent less then 100%. How did they firgure its antiknock characteristics. They ran the tested fuel through a specail engine, that had dual carbs and a variable compression head/cylinder assembly. One carb was for octane. and the other was for the tested fuel. They switched back and forth to see how they preformed. This is the short short version. Kept it simple.


xxx your funney

Originally posted by 450ar
piston cooling nozzle. They (450r) have em just like the big rigs. just a neato fact. I would still recomend race gas with a high compression piston. I just feel that there is more lea-way with this machine. Then the older motors, exspecialy 2 strokes. But still run race gas. Did i mention to run race gas? Well run race gas.

one more thing. This octane tester, what did it test,... octane? haha. There is no octane in fuel. Octane was a chemical (that burned) They used it as a control. If tested fuel had the same antiknock as octane is was given a 100% octane rating. If it had less then gave it a percent less then 100%. How did they firgure its antiknock characteristics. They ran the tested fuel through a specail engine, that had dual carbs and a variable compression head/cylinder assembly. One carb was for octane. and the other was for the tested fuel. They switched back and forth to see how they preformed. This is the short short version. Kept it simple.


xxx your funney

i truely love how all of you guys think im lien when i give info, they figured octane by (R+M)/2 R and M being Ron and Mon, which in turn equals AKI or the US standard of measure for octane, Japan and Europe both use RON which was created by ASTM which used a standardized engine to test the octane, while MON was pretty much the same engine just at a higher rpm and a differant temperature etc etc, the US octane is an average of the 2, a general rule for this is RON * 0.95 but more comonly used is (R+M)/2 they figured the R and the M then divided by 2 to find the octane, please dont act like im an idiot and lying, because my info is based on facts, not a bunch of BS i sit here and make up, so maybe your the funny 1? :confused:

[mikes450r]

boy how long did it take you to copy and paste that..

Originally posted by mikes450r
boy how long did it take you to copy and paste that..

c what i mean, my information is useless because you all think i know nothing what so ever, why do i even post anymore, i try to help and i jus get flamed by people like u :huh

[Chango]

I f you want to replace your crank ,head and cylinder go a head and run pump gas.Run the race gas.If you want to mix it start with more race gas than pump and then work you way down decreasing the race fuel from there untill you notice the ping then increase the race gas untill it goes away .Please don't forget your ratio of race to pump mixture.

[redrider9045]

Another thing to get that thing screaming is switch out your piston and cam. With baldwin 14:1 piston and there mx cam we have that in my friends 450r along with a pro design airfliter and baldwin pipe and that thing SCREAMS its only like 1,000 for the pipe, piston, cam, airfilter. Also run 110 octane race gas

And for the problem what honda racer is saying i think if you dont know anything about what your talking about dotn say anything. I wish i knew more about engines.