Strage oil leak...please help

[BLEEDRED]

Shortly after a top end rebuild on my 440 and having FDO heavy duty head studs professionally installed by Extreme Tech ATV I noticed that oil was leaking from the head stud right in front of the spark plug. After further investigation, I found that the nut was loose on the head stud that is right in front of the spark plug. I put a wrench on it and tightened it down. Oil is still seeping out. The oil is actually traveling up the threads of the stud and then running down around the exhaust. The strange part is that the head gasket is not leaking a drop. I'm not sure what to do at this point, short of tearing the top end down again. Anybody ever have this problem or have any possible solutions?

[BLEEDRED]

I'm reaching for answers here. Do you thing the stud is pulling out? I wouln't think so seeing how they are brand new HD studs. :confused:

[Slackjaw]

could the gasket be oil saturated?

[BLEEDRED]

I'm not sure, how does that happen and how can you fix it? No oil is leaking out the gasket, just off the top of the stud...strange I know. The head gasket was brand new with the rebuild. Three piece flexsteel cometic.

[Slackjaw]

i am sorry, i miss read your post. if oil is climbing the stud then i would suspect that stud is either loosening or started pulling out.

oring the head and forget about all the problems!

[BLEEDRED]

oring the head and forget about all the problems!

What do you mean?

[MIKE400EX]

There should be no oil near that head stud, top or bottom it's all dry. I'd bet it's the valve/dome cover gasket.

[BLEEDRED]

I wish it were that simple...however with my own eyes I saw oil bubbling up around the threads of the stud and running down the front of the head...:eek2:

[MIKE400EX]

Are you sure it's not "combustion by-product", like what you get around spark plugs? The only other source I can think of is if oil is getting around or past the sleeve in the cylinder to the bottom of the stud. That could only happen if the larger stud threads are actually "breaking out" thru the aluminum cylinder against the OD of the sleeve. Is the breather hose clogged? Is the seeping oil as clean as what's in the crankcase or is it almost black?
Maybe you've struck oil and can retire now? :D

[TC426EX]

Hmm, never heard of this happening... There shouldnt be any oil coming out of the stud because it goes down into the sides of the cylinder, so where would the oil be making it anywhere near the stud? If its coming out the top where the nut goes with the rocker cover off, maybe its getting by the head gasket on the inside only but not enough to blow by to the outside. So then it follows the stud up through the hole to the top. Thats really far fetched and I cant see it happening, but who knows. If you find the new studs are pulling out of the cylinder, then whoever installed them must have either been sloppy drilling the hole + retapping it, or caused some damage while doing it. Wish I could help you out, Ill keep thinkin about it....

[duke416ex]

Did you take the nut off and see if the stud was loose or if it had any play in it, I would check that. Also, I know this would be bad, but do you think the head could be cracked around the bolt hole allowing oil to come up the crack?

[BLEEDRED]

I know this is a really strange one guys and I appreciate you all thinking about it and trying to help. I haven't gotten in there yet to check it out...maybe this weekend. I will let you all know what I find out.

I know it's not a very good chance, but I didn't use the large O-ring on the botton of the sleeve because the 440 produces too much heat so it's possible that if the threads of the stud cut into the sleeve the oil is climbing that way. The oil is pretty dark, but it needs to be changed so I would say it's the same color as what is in the crank case. It's not possible that the oil is coming from the plug...again, I saw it seeping from the threads with my own eyes. Anyway I still need an explanation of why the nut was loose...maybe the stud is pulling out...cant see how that is possible I'm only running 11:1. I'll check for cracks on the head. :grr:

I have had trouble with oil leaks with this quad before, that is why I went with the HD head studs this year...I'm getting to whits end...it would not be unlike me to get out a torch and cut the entire quad into 6" pieces and dump it in the swamp...that is how pizzed I am getting over this. I will make sure to take pictures if it comes to that. :devil:

[BLEEDRED]

I took off the tank and actually got a look at the stud. It doesn't appear that the nut was loose at all. I put a torque wrench on it and it was holding at 33 pounds. Now I am really confused. I wasn't able to check for cracks in the head unless I deceide to pull the top end apart, which I am hoping to avoid. The oil is for sure traveling up the stud and leaking from the bottom of the nut then running down onto the head. Breather lines are clear. Head gasket is still not leaking a drop.

Again:


I'm getting to whits end...it would not be unlike me to get out a torch and cut the entire quad into 6" pieces and dump it in the swamp...

Could I possible put an O-ring under the nut or would it screw up the torque or just melt away when the head heats up? I know that is not the right fix but I really don't know where to go from here...any help would be greatly appreciated.

[blue416ex]

i would try it and see what happens whats the worst thing that could happen ? melt a .30 cent o ring? and have to clean the motor a little

[MIKE400EX]

I too don't think an o-ring tight around the stud will hurt anything. If you get a silicone or viton o-ring it will stay a little more pliable than the standard buna ones. A "lap" of teflon tape or sealer around the stud - on the bottom of the nut end- might do it too. Clean the stud and nut and use a q-tip to put the teflon sealer on the threads. Good luck!

[rneal]

I'd try some parma-tex, form-a-gasket, or RTV available at any auto parts store.

[BLEEDRED]

Thanks again guys. What does everybody think about how the oil is getting to the stud? That is what is really confusing me.

[MIKE400EX]

Looked at a 400 jug last night. Only way I can see oil getting up there is between the cylinder and sleeve. From there it's getting to the lower stud area and traveling up. Which means that the stud threads are probably "breaking out" of the aluminum jug to the sleeve. Just a theory though.:ermm:

[RiderTRX400ex]

get some pics i cant figure out where its leeking

[BLEEDRED]

Well I tried the RTV (hondabond) and after a very short ride it was spewing oil like a champ. So I tore into the top end. I'm down to the jug now and everything looks tip top. All studs are solid. I checked the stud length and none are pulling. Had good torque on all bolts. Dowel pins are in place. I talked to the shop that installed the HD head studs and they told me that there is no way the threads for the HD studs could have cut into the sleeve. I have an 89mm and they said they go all the way up to like 92mm and use the same HD studs with no problems. The only thing I can think of is that the head gasket started leaking and only made it as far as the front stud and that is where the oil is coming from...IDK. I am really, really confused now. It was a brand new flex steel cometic head gasket and the mating surfaces were clean.

Any other ideas? I am think about installing a new head gasket and trying that. What do you think?

[slamdak8782]

I read a post one time by Mickey thompson that there is a way for oil to travel up through the jug. Betwween the steel sleeve and the jug but I cant remember the particulars. I think he said something about how the cylinder hits the cases when you put it in. You have to cut some clearance on some 440s. Otherwise i might have a good idea for jerryrigging it. What if you put a copper washer on it like the 350x had for the oil lines it definitly wouldnt melt and could withstand the torque. Try the new head gasket it couldnt hurt.

[slamdak8782]

You might just have a cracked head

[BLEEDRED]

I discovered somthing else. When I pulled the head off, the gasket was saturated with oil. Also the pockets above the bolts that bolt the jug to the case were totally full of oil. I know there is not suppose to be oil in there. I was wondering if it was possible that the head gasket was bad between the timing chain tunnel and the combustion chamber. I don't think the head is cracked. The head and jug were just checked before I set it up (ten hours ago) and were found to be true. I'm hoping it was a bad gasket.


I read a post one time by Mickey thompson that there is a way for oil to travel up through the jug. Betwween the steel sleeve and the jug but I cant remember the particulars. I think he said something about how the cylinder hits the cases when you put it in. You have to cut some clearance on some 440s.

Actually this is on most 440's and I already accounted for this. I ground the cases and made sure the cylinder sat on the dowels with no resistance. Plus I ran the bike all last season and didn't have this problem.

The only thing I did different from last season to this was not use the large O-ring on the bottom of the sleeve. When I tore everything apart eariler this year the O-ring was melted and hanging into the case...I made a post on this website and somebody told me that Mickey Dunlap told them not to bother with that O-ring because the 440 produces too much heat and the O-ring fails as a result.

Sorry for the long post...this is just an update. If you have any more ideas please let me know. I will let you all know how it turns out.

[MIKE400EX]

Go to a good industrial/hydraulic fitting co. and get a silicone or viton o-ring - don't use an OEM buna one. Some silicone ones are rated to 600F. Probably solve your leak headaches. Good luck & keep us posted!

[slamdak8782]

check this out i think i might have the solution? Check this out have you ever seen the mods for the oil coolers? Well there is a passage that shoots oil up through jug to the top end. It is possible if that whole was clogged or the gasket didnt have a hole for it that possibly the oil would get pushed through that whole and all through the head gasket other rhan that or a cracked head you will not have these problems. Also one more thing it could be is if the ring end gap was excessive or in line. Also were the oil scrapers installed. Is your breather clogged and what is the status of the valve guide seals. Those are the only means of getting oil up there and it seems more pssible that the line is clogged. Well thats all i can think of

[slamdak8782]

oh and one more idea take it all back to the place that did the work ***** up a storm and tell them to fix whatever they broke or replace it with a new head. It only seems logical that the part they "fixed" is not what it seems:macho

[BLEEDRED]

I did all the work myself with the except for installing the HD head studs and I did have the head ported. Other than that, I tunred all the wrenches.

Where is this oil passage you speak of? I checked the end gap on the rings and they seemed fine. I also made certain that they were spaced properly. And the bike has great compressoin and no loss of power. Breather lines are not clogged. Valve seals good. Still looking for answers. I'll let you know.

[duke416ex]

I said something about that passage in another post to you. If he is talking bout the one I mentioned, it is on the clutch side. You should be able to see the hole where it comes from the casing, through the cylindes and into the head. It is the one that flows from the channel in the clutch cover.

[BLEEDRED]

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Holy crap!! I tore it down to the jug, cleaned everything, soaked up all the oil in the pockets over the bolts that hold the jug to the case and set up with a NEW head gasket. All bolts were torqued to spec. and everything was clean. Oil passages appeared clean. Nothing else strange looking. Spun it around the field a couple of times and boom, oil blowing out the stud again. But still nothing out the head gasket. I'm about to just ride it this way. Is there any way I could have a problem with my rings? Oh, and I did check and I am not building crank case pressure. Compression is good, runs like a dam monster...torque is awesome.

Sorry to keep bringing this problem up...but I REALLY need it fixed.

Thanks again for the help guys.

[slamdak8782]

Buy a new head on ebay?:confused: or maybe show us some pics so we can look at it. The head mostly and check the oil passage

[duke416ex]

Are you 100% that the head is true after having it milled, sounds like maybe the head or the cylinder may not be true and allowing oil between them.

[BLEEDRED]

I'm not 100% because I don't have the means to measure it my self. But the shop that did the work is 100%, at least that is what the guys said.

I also found out that two of the bolts that hold the jug to the case extend into the case and oil could be climbing those...but there is no crank case pressure, so that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Another thing...if the head isn't true why did it take over two tanks of gas for this problem to present?

[duke416ex]

Another thing...if the head isn't true why did it take over two tanks of gas for this problem to present? [/B][/QUOTE]

Well you see if e=mc2 and gravity travels at 10ft/sec, I don't know.

No, I am not trying to be a pric, I have seen engines do stuff like that be fore though, run fine for a while and then show a problem that was there from the beginning. Did you just look at the head, or did you have the shop check it, they should have that powder which will show up any cracks. I know I am repeating myself, but this is all I can think of over the net, and I know how bad it sux having bike trouble. Seeing as how you said the ehad gasket had oil on it when you took it apart I would think your answer is somewhere in the cylinder, head, or gasket.

[BLEEDRED]

Thanks for your time and consideration. I'm still working on the problem...it's probably going to be ongoing. I have to get time to tear it apart again. The shop didn't check the head for cracks, just for trueness. I'll keep you updated as I find out more information.

[duke416ex]

Any luck?

[BLEEDRED]

Not yet. I did ride it a bit over the weekend. It's still leaking oil from the same spot, but not bad now. I'm assuming that once the pockets over the cylinder bolts fill up it will be leaking a lot more. The thing runs like a champ so it's kind of hard to tear it down, but I can't have the oil problem either...I'll keep you posted.