Want your 450r to have the perfect motor???

[aroracer72]

Hello Guys,
Ive been jsut reading and researching on how to make the 450r into the monster it can be. The dirtbike crf450 is better then yamahas 450 dirtbike...so why cant your quad be faster or jsut as good??? One solution is too buy everything for your motor...and dump a fortune into it. That works and is effective...but not everybody wants to do that...or can. I know a few of you guys will already know this...but for all you begginners or guys who dont know jsut were to start...this thread is for you. First i analyzed and reasearched on what the differences between the dirtbike and the quad version of the honda 450. Heres a list of what is different

**DIFFERENCES**
1) carb --the dirtbikes is better...period
2) ignition --the dirtbike 04 ignition is great....but the 05 is better then the quads.....and has a very aggressive mapping.
3)piston --the dirtbikes is lighter....and has a higher compression.
4)gearing --the dirtbikes are gear taller.....and with the right components..is much better then our quads gearing.
5)Cam (duhh)
6)dirtbikes flywheel is lighter

all of this together accomodates each other and makes the bike a killer...while it makes our 450r's incomplete. Honda evolved their dirtbike into the perfect machine...and they made the 450r quad like the dirtbike USE to be. The dirtbike use to be really mild....and had a soft bottom end...and bad out of corner power....sound familiar???? Also when pros were running custom quads in the now extinct pro class....they almost always chose the crf motor over the yzf motor to put in their custom frames. Thats because the dirtbike motor actually has some balls to it....unlike our quads. Now that leads me to the FIX it list. This is a list of things that would liven up your 450r's and make them into the power mongers we all know they can be.

**TO DO LIST**
1)Fuel Accelerator cover from boyseen...it gos on the bottom of your carb. Increases throttle response.
2)get a crf dirtbike carb...or a edelbrock
3)install a 2004 or 2005 dirtbike(better it be a 2005) ignition
4)aftermarket cam.....low to mid
5)1 tooth bigger front sprocket.....or 2-3 teeth smaller rear sprocket
6)WEISCO hot rod..or complete crank(reliability..and strength)
7)JE or WEISCO high compression piston
8)Big Gun race series pipe....have been told it gives best gains in performance
9)Airbox lid removal with a high flo filter(duhh)
10)Boyseen coolant cover...(reliability.....engine will run better)
11)or skip alot of that and put a 2005 crf dirtbike engine in your quad.....LOL...with all the electronics...etc.(sell your quad motor)

that last one was a partial joke....but if you do this list.....the results will be grin creating. I didnt list putting a crf flywheel on cause of the change it would make and im not 100% shure of the neccessity of it..and reliability issues...jsut dont wanna mess with it. People say get it ported.....get a angle valve cut, but angle valve cuts sometimes cause probs....and porting a 4 stroke does next to nothing..for the money. Porting only helps if you have a big bore or extremem motor work. What i listed isnt super modifieng your engine...or super performance oriented things. My lsit is designed to work together and in a way reshape your engines power to be useful and make it into the power you need...with the reliability you want. Ill be honest...im not a pro..and neither are many of us.....so we dont have sponsor backings and stuff to dump money and etc into our motors to make them better. This list is for the guy you has money...but needs it to be effective when spent. If you have any comments...or suggestions.....then ask away or tell away. I talked with motor builders....not racers about this....cause all racers have their own oppinnions about whats best....like i did. So thats why i asked someone who knows exactly what their talking about. They broke it down and explained it...and now I am sharing it with you.
CHAD
(i may have made a mistake in this post in places...so if i messed up......go easy..and ill fix it)

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by aroracer72
People say get it ported.....get a angle valve cut, but angle valve cuts sometimes cause probs....and porting a 4 stroke does next to nothing..for the money. Porting only helps if you have a big bore or extremem motor work.

CHAD
(i may have made a mistake in this post in places...so if i messed up......go easy..and ill fix it)

man, all this said rather well, except,...


the porting part:
porting is the most reliable hp you can buy on any motor- period. no moving parts here and alot of power can be gotten, or loss, out of the head of an engine.

[jeepeater347]

The quad also needs to have +1mm exhaust valves to be on par with the bike

[aroracer72]

Ahh yes.......as for the porting.........every motor guy i talked to said yes its worth it....but he recommends to paying customers always to get porting LAST. Once youve gotten the right carb...pipe..cams...etc............porting ties it all together. But the more you port a 4 stroke engine the more bottom end it loses...so you gotta find that perfect balance. Now cleaning up the ports and smoothing them out and opening them up a little i bilieve is very important...but not extensive porting. For 2 strokes porting is like cams in a 4 stroke. 2 Strokes benefit tremendously from porting.....but 4 strokes not as much. But porting is recommended from me...jsut do it after everything else.

As for the valves....i knew i was forgetting something........this motor needs those 1mm longer exhaust valves....thanks for catchign that.
Also something you might think that is kinda silly that i didnt add was..........JET YOUR BIKE AS ACCURATE AS POSSIBLE. Jetting is a pain in the butt....but if you get the jetting right..youd be amazed how a properly jetted quad runs compared to a poorer jetted quad.
CHAD
(if anyone else catches anything else.....please list it)

[WhiteZee]

i can not believe im reading this.....

[the_hulkamaniac]

Wider valves not longer. With porting to match.

[aroracer72]

darn it....yes thank you
CHAD

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by WhiteZee
i can not believe im reading this.....

then don't

[aroracer72]

something is on your mind.........so say it. If you think something is BS.....or funny......or a load a crap...then tell me....lol. I said i wanted oppinnions......so please do share.
CHAD

[aroracer72]

UPDATE
One thing that i dont completely agree with is the Big Gun pipe....they are decent pipes....and im shrue it is a great pipe.....but theres a lot of other pipes out there that i know work as well and are jsut as good if not better.
CHAD
I personally like HMF....Yoshimura....white brothers......and a couple others

[Crash929]

How durable will a motor designed for one wheel be installed on a machined with two wheels? Isn't there a lot more stress & strain put on a quad engine then a motorcycle engine because of the extra contact surface?

Anyone with a CRF hybrid out there care to share there experience with this motor in an ATV chassis?

[R3Concepts]

Its WISECO. Big Guns are not good 450R pipes. The 450R is quite receptive to a port and flow job.

[aroracer72]

Yes....in basic form......atv's DO create more stress on motors. Thats why sometimes hybrids had engine probs. I was saying to make our motors as much like the dirtbike as possible..without sacrificing reliability. And that good to hear the 450r's respond well to porting.
CHAD

[raptor_02]

lol fellas I hate to say it but Honda done terrible on the 450r. Look at all you have to do to get the full potenial out of the honda motor. I agree that the motors in the bikes are nearly identical but anyone here should agree that honda just didn't want their 450r to be the top peformer or something. Pipe, jets and a retimed exhaust cam on a YFZ will run with anything out there and I mean ANYTHING!! It takes to much to make the honda that fast for me and that's why I own a YFZ. But hopefully Honda will change their ways and take their quad as serious as they do their bikes.

[jeepnrocks]

lol fellas I hate to say it but Honda done terrible on the 450r
But I'll bet they did better than you in English class :)

[Lurkin]

why would you wanna go bigger on the front gear? they are too tall from the factory with a 14 tooth.

[aroracer72]

That gearing is suggested for 18 inch tires..something else i forgot to add......
CHAD

[aroracer72]

And hate to break it too yah...but one...faster isnt ALWAYS better........and two..the yfz isnt the fastest mx quad out there right now. Many of the new cannondale/atk riders have switched from yfz's to atk's cause one..they are faster...and two..they are MORE reliable. No matter what youve heard.....we jsut had a pro switch from a 18,000 dollar yfz to a cannondale stock moto.....and says he loves it more then his yammie....cause he was tired of fixing his yammie all the time. And also....the 450r's are slowly starting to take over now.........chris borich...santo desiri.....John Natalie....and others are all switching to hondas instead of yammies.
CHAD
(yammies are still great quads though...no doubt about it)

[iceracer65]

the stock carb is one of THE best carbs out there...switching to the flatslide will yeild a loss of bottom end power and throttle response.

unless you are oval racing i would think the quad carb is better in every situation.

[RedRacer44]

From everyone I talk to, the switch to the FCR carb brings about INCREASED throttle response and makes the quad "feel" faster (seat of the pants). I've rode 3 450Rs w/ FCRs and the throttle response is un-believable compared to my stock carb w/ a Dyno jet kit. My jetting is good too (according to the dyno). Mind you, all 3 of these 450Rs have full blown MX race motors but that seems to be where the FCR really shines is on a built motor. Thats why probably a good portion of serious racers put the FCR carb on the quad, at least thats what I've found at the MX races.

Thats one advantage to why the YFZ performs better all-around I believe, is Yamaha was smart with using the FCR carb like on their YZ bikes. I'd still rather ride my Honda any day over the YFZ even though I did have to dump some serious $$$ into my motor to get it up to spec with a YFZ w/ pipe, filter, jetting, and the simple "cam mod". But it was well worth it.......

[sredish]

I was under the impression from being told by several people that the Boyesen Coolant Cover won't fit, or am I thinking of something different by Boyesen? Is this the cover that goes on the water pump?

Also, you say gear up another tooth, but are the actual tranny gears the same? The tranny may have a different gear setup, hence the need to be geared taller with sprockets? Just a thought.

I'm pretty new to the Hondas, so a lot of this is unfamiliar territory for me.

Scott

[aroracer72]

no....the trannies are different.
The dirtbikes have a less tall first gear....but all the gears are taller then our quads. They are able to do this cause of the other engine components they are using. And as far as i know the covers fit. What i stated about gearing is to try to make out trannies/gearing the same as the dirtbikes. And the dirtbike carbs are much better then our 450r carbs.
CHAD

[450r4me]

I think that honda just wanted to make a fun reliable machine that was fast and could compete. I dont see why you all bicker at each other arent we all out to have a good time? I own a 450r and it may not be the fastest but at least I enjoy riding it. If your not happy with your machine from the start then why did ya buy it.

[BOONE450R]

Originally posted by raptor_02
lol fellas I hate to say it but Honda done terrible on the 450r. Look at all you have to do to get the full potenial out of the honda motor. I agree that the motors in the bikes are nearly identical but anyone here should agree that honda just didn't want their 450r to be the top peformer or something. Pipe, jets and a retimed exhaust cam on a YFZ will run with anything out there and I mean ANYTHING!! It takes to much to make the honda that fast for me and that's why I own a YFZ. But hopefully Honda will change their ways and take their quad as serious as they do their bikes.

LMAO!!!

The Engines look the same and thats about it!! Yes you will have to do a little more to a 450R (change cam) to make it as quick as a YFZ, but your little cam mod is about the same. You talk about all the things you will have to do to a 450r to make it a TOP performer, but i look at your signature and you have done just about the same things that i have, so why do you own a YFZ again??

If you ask me i think Honda was smart in the way they built the 450R. The bike comes a little detuned , yet at the same time the sell a HRC kit to hop it up. This gives the dealers a chance for their service department to make some money. ;)

[911]

i think my STOCK honda 450 engine has some good USABLE power!!! with no other mods but slip on and jet i took 6 holeshots and the 30+b championship in new england last year. and let me say i was the only stock quad against some very modified yamis and even a couple suzuks. shure more power is always a great thing and i would love some more myself but, if u ain't runin at full throtle at all times u don't need anything else;) . a good friend of mine, and racer, just put together a 15K yami and let me take it for a rip. YES it RIPS but man if u can,t use it whats the sence( he's a novice racer) i 'll still smoke him:D want to hear somthing funny. after i took it for a ride, he said when he gets a little more $ he's gona put in the 450 kit:rolleyes: I just laghed. hey i guess it's his money. i want to try a cam to get some more top end but it seems like a hasle.we'll see how i do in the a class first w/ some susp.:macho

[RedRacer44]

I totally agree w/ 911 on what he says. Lot of guys are dumping $$$ into their motors and dont need all that power because they'll never take full advantage of it. But it is their money and people are allowed to do what they damn well please :D

I have put some $$$ into my motor but I use every HP that I can squeeze outta the motor at the MX races. Its helped me out in the long run....

Another way to look at it is if you go ahead and build your motor.....you're going to get faster as time goes if you race full-time, might as well have a quad thats going to progress with you. But whatever works for one person, wont for another.....

[Mxracer53]

This is just my idea on what would be a very cost effective motor package.
this is for 18 inch tires
1-full pipe
2-air filter
3-jetting
4-power now system
5-boysen accelarator pump cover
6-rev box
7-cam low to mid
8-aftermarket piston
9-15 tooth front or 2-3 tooth+ rear
10-i cat spark enhancer
keep in mind this is just my opinion for a cost effective race motor to be like a crf motor, please share all comments and advise. thanks.

[raptor_02]

Originally posted by aroracer72
And hate to break it too yah...but one...faster isnt ALWAYS better........and two..the yfz isnt the fastest mx quad out there right now. Many of the new cannondale/atk riders have switched from yfz's to atk's cause one..they are faster...and two..they are MORE reliable. No matter what youve heard.....we jsut had a pro switch from a 18,000 dollar yfz to a cannondale stock moto.....and says he loves it more then his yammie....cause he was tired of fixing his yammie all the time. And also....the 450r's are slowly starting to take over now.........chris borich...santo desiri.....John Natalie....and others are all switching to hondas instead of yammies.
CHAD
(yammies are still great quads though...no doubt about it) Natalie switched because eastcoastatv switched. But it worked out good for him because now Honda is interested in him and he may score a factory ride. At the Pro Level the YFZ and 450R are equal in my opinion. If Natalie would have been on a YFZ I think the same thing would have happened so far this year. I didn't mean to start a flame, I just wanted to share why I didn't own a 450r. I was a Honda man to at one time but the YFZ changed that. But it comes down to this, the 450r and yfz are by far better than anything that we could buy before and which ever one people choose to buy will for sure be the right one. You can't go wrong with either machine.

[benwa450r]

Something else the CRF has is titanium intake valves the TRX doesn't. The CRFs dry weight is also 222 lbs. so it doesn't need as much torque as TRX. Remember when building up a TRX. The factory rod will only take so much horsepower. I just bought Sparks titanium intake valves. Waiting on Falicon rod and -4 oz. trailtech flywheel.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by benwa450r
Waiting on Falicon rod and -4 oz. trailtech flywheel.

they both are available.

[jeepnrocks]

i have the 41mm fcr and it does make a noticeable difference in throttle response. the downfall is that the thumb throttle will wear ya out quicker. sounds stupid but after a hour and a half race that little stuff adds up

[benwa450r]

Hey Chad502ex, I can't get either. Falicon says the rods are in production but not we ready for a week or two. I have every piece to put motor back together except rod. Do you know where I can get one? Also, trailtech says -4 flywheels are at least a month out. Rocky mountain atv is out too. Do you know someone who has -4 in stock? I have been calling Falicon regularly to check on this. Any help appreciated. Both available and IN STOCK is way different.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by benwa450r
Hey Chad502ex, I can't get either. Falicon says the rods are in production but not we ready for a week or two. I have every piece to put motor back together except rod. Do you know where I can get one? Also, trailtech says -4 flywheels are at least a month out. Rocky mountain atv is out too. Do you know someone who has -4 in stock? I have been calling Falicon regularly to check on this. Any help appreciated. Both available and IN STOCK is way different.

I feel for you. I was very fortunate that Falicon had a Knife rod as my crank was being stroked. I do believe i was able to get their first production rod that fit our setup.

you could probally send Trailtech your stock flywheel and have them laythe off 4oz and rebalance. just kidding. I got my +4oz flywheel back from them just havn't installed yet


I know no-one else that has the knife rods or trail other than the source.
Patience- young skywalker!

[TURBO-530R]

Originally posted by jeepnrocks
i have the 41mm fcr and it does make a noticeable difference in throttle response. the downfall is that the thumb throttle will wear ya out quicker. sounds stupid but after a hour and a half race that little stuff adds up
I think if you do thumb exercises three times a day .This will help.:D jk

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by CRASH508-EX
I think if you do thumb exercises three times a day .This will help.:D jk

LOL he probally does- don't you? ;)

[jeepnrocks]

Typical

[Ramsus]

i'm doing vomit exercises

[R3Concepts]

Originally posted by aroracer72
And hate to break it too yah...but one...faster isnt ALWAYS better........and two..the yfz isnt the fastest mx quad out there right now. Many of the new cannondale/atk riders have switched from yfz's to atk's cause one..they are faster...and two..they are MORE reliable. No matter what youve heard.....we jsut had a pro switch from a 18,000 dollar yfz to a cannondale stock moto.....and says he loves it more then his yammie....cause he was tired of fixing his yammie all the time. And also....the 450r's are slowly starting to take over now.........chris borich...santo desiri.....John Natalie....and others are all switching to hondas instead of yammies.
CHAD
(yammies are still great quads though...no doubt about it)

HUH?:huh Why was it that Cdales were so reliable again? Oh yeah, they took the time to balance the motor, not. Cdales are not reliable, sorry to say. If he was tired of fixing that YFZ waits till he rides that Moto for a race.

Also I dont know what you guys are doing running 15 tooth fronts or 36/35 rears with 18s. 18s are MX tires, for mx the 450R needs to be at a 13/38.

[WhiteZee]

i would thnk 13/38 with mx tires would be geared down way to low, i thought stock gearing with 18's worked well.

[RedRacer44]

Yes, 13/38 is too low for me anyways. I tried it and it really hurt the power on my motor....I was shifting gears more often. I'm running stock gearing with my bike and it works great. 2nd gear starts are a breeze, holeshot is in effect :D

[R3Concepts]

The 13/38 isnt too low..You should be shifting gears alot, keep the motor, revving. The other thing is, why have 5th if you dont use it.

[RedRacer44]

All I'm saying is.....all the tracks around here, I'm in 3rd/4th gear probably 95% of the time. Sometimes I'll drop down to 2nd if its a tighter track but usually I can clutch it in 3rd gear and pull the gear outta the corner, no prob. Heh, with my motor I have no troubles staying in the power.....I let the torque do all the work for me.

I tried the 13t and going down a straightaway where I'd usually stay in 3rd gear all the way to the corner, I'd have to shift into 4th right before the corner because I'd run out of power/hit rev limiter and then have to downshift real quick. It just didnt work for me is all I'm saying....if it fits your riding style, then thats good but it just didnt work for me :cool: