Sparks 416

[Evan]

Well I finally did, I bought the Sparks 416 kit. It consists of a JE 87mm 12.5 piston, agrresive drop in cam(isnt that an oxymoron), FCR 39 mm carb, and head and base gasket, and valve seals. I told them I wanted all the gaskets but they only sent me these 2, I guess I can go to honda and get the valve cover gasket, are there any other gaskets that I need? How much clearence should be between the head gasket and piston? It just barely fits in the gasket. Anyone got any tips that will help on this installation Thanks. Also which hole does the cable for the FCR go in? Top or Bottom? Sparks is great and real nice, but it wouldve been nice if they had sent some directions.

[EricB]

what did you pay to get it on your door step? never really looked at pricing, just curious.

[Evan]

For all of this shipped red it was 1125 THe total for the parts was 1080 I belive, 35 for the head gasket....:eek:

[Bart]

I hope that you have a service manual. Makes this job a snap.

You can order the top end gasket kit from Service Honda for ~$25.

I know of several people (the famous Gabe is one) who run the stock sized head gasket with a 416 bore so that should not be a problem.

Not sure that I understand the FCR cable hole question. Should be obvious when you put the carb on.

Good luck.

[oynot400]

The cable goes in the top hole if you are using a thumb throttle. If you got the twist throttle you use both holes, push/pull.

[Evan]

Thanks a bunch guys, all I need is the valve cover gasket I belive, unless there is someother gaskets. It came with the head and base gasket and valve seals. Ok another question, if the cable goes in the top notch, where on the wheel type thing does the barrel go? Thanks again. I am sure its prejetted but what jetting would you run with this kit? Where could I buy the jets? The only mods not listed in my sig is k&n and no airbox lid.

[MR. HONDA EX'S]

you may what to get a new cam chain and tenioser(sp). My cuz had his cam chian go south and cost over 300 to fix, new valves, springs, etc... not to cool. The fcr isn't to hard to hook up, I helped get my cuz's set-up.

[Bart]

You should be able to order jets from Sudco:

http://www.sudco.com

I would start with what you have (probably 165 main, 50 pilot) and go from there.

Good Luck.

[wyndzer]

I had the same stuff on my bike. Put the cable through the top mounting hole and run it around the top of the wheel to the first hole. Run it just the way it came. Should be a 165 main and 48 pilot I think. The only thing you will need to adjust is the small recessed screw underneath on the side closest to the motor. Remember turn the screw left to richen, right to lean.

[Evan]

Well I just back from putting the FCR on, it defintely wasnt jetted right, so dont go yellin at me. I did it just for fun and giggles since I had nothing else to do. Even not jetted right you can tell somewhat of a difference, defintely crisper throttle response. Didnt take but about 30-45 minutes to intall either, everything fit like a charm. THe hardest part was reinstalling that worthless spring in the throttle housing. I was hoping to get the 416 put together and be able to ride this weekend but I cant find anybody that has a valve cover gasket, I spent my time calling around when I should have just ordered one next day air this morning. Oh well I got a few more places to call tomorrow maybe I can find one and be riding by saturday.

[Dave400ex]

Now all you need is a Sparks Pipe. LOL. Let me know how you like this Setup. I have been thinking about doing this Setup. I would get a Sparks Pipe after a while though. I need to Talk to Sparks and TC more. I think I`ll go with the TC unless the Sparks kicks butt.

[Evan]

I will let you know, I have a race in 1week and I am usally 4th sometimes 3rd in the holeshot, and thats against madly modded 400s and a raptor. If everyone was stock I could get the holeshot but since they are not I have no choice but to mod it up. I am going to drag race my freinds full out TC 416 and see whose faster, he is proably a little but not much. I would get a pipe but they sound funny and I like the way mine sounds, also I dont want to change the header, I like lowend.

[400exRacerX]

You don't need a new valve cover gasket,, its reusable. Its made of a springy metal material. You can get one if you wanna spend $32 on a gasket.:eek:

[400exRacerX]

Now that I just thought about this,,, I don't really see how that kit cost $1,100.

Carb- 430
Cam- 200
Piston- 130
throttle cable- 20
Gaskets- 20

All that equals $800:huh

[LilGuyOn400ex]

dont u have to bore the motor to make it a 416? are u doing all this stuff on your motor by yourself?

Sparks racing is a great company to deal with. I think there pipe sounds good. I order a 87mm 12.5:1 piston, 39mm fcr and hi-rev cdi. I got the parts today. But it will be a few weeks before I can get out and ride becouse I sent the head out to be ported. X-rider give a review of the kit.

[Rhino]

I had the same problem with my head gasket diameter. The piston would not fit through my head gasket. I asked Terry Marcum's about this, he said it is not a problem. He said the same gasket is used up an 88mm piston. He has done hundreds of these using that same gasket and has never had a problem. Actually the gasket hanging over into the cylinder takes up space therefore bumping up your compression a little bit.

[Evan]

Originally posted by 400exRacerX
Now that I just thought about this,,, I don't really see how that kit cost $1,100.

Carb- 430
Cam- 200
Piston- 130
throttle cable- 20
Gaskets- 20

All that equals $800:huh

Carb and cable=450
Cam=375
piston=189
head gasket=35
base gasket=cant remember
valve seals=5 eachx4
red shipping=45

you do the math, all I know is the invoice says 1125

[Dave400ex]

That Stuff does Cost more then I thought it would. For $400 more Dollars I w could have a Full TC 416 Kit. I just want the TC XC Motor though. It will run me $300 plus Labor.

[Evan]

Thanks guys, so the valve cover gasket is reusable? Then I will have it put torn apart and bored and put back together tomorrow, as long as no problems arise. Yes I am doing all the work myself, I have a cousin that will do the boring. Do you think I should seat the valves while I got it apart? Proably worth it. I wanted porting but time was a factor so I just got these to tide me over and I will sure enough do a review. I didnt get the cdi, b/c I didnt think it would do me any good since it makes no more power at higer rpms, and I know how to shift so the extra rpms wouldnt help me except to blow my motor faster. I may invest in a timing key in the future, and when the seasons over maybe some porting and a lightened flywheel, larger valves etc.

[Evan]

Originally posted by WarriorMan
That Stuff does Cost more then I thought it would. For $400 more Dollars I w could have a Full TC 416 Kit. I just want the TC XC Motor though. It will run me $300 plus Labor.

300 plus labor whats he do to it? We will find out dollar for dollar which is faster and which has less problems, b/c a buddy of mine has the full TC 416. Plus I didnt have to wait 8 weeks, just about 3 days. Which would you rather have save 400 bucks and be riding or spend 1500 and not be riding for 6-8 weeks all for a neglible difference(We'll find out)

[Dave400ex]

Yeah $300 Bucks is all his XC Motor is. It`s just a 425 Piston, XC Cam, and his Pipe. I already have his Pipe. So the Piston and Cam are $300. I think TC and Sparks are about the same.

[Evan]

Are you gonna send it out for that little bit? Just for those things you could get someone to help you put them in and save you some time and money. Like I said we will see which is better Sparks or TC, my 416EX with a cam and carb vs. a full TC 416

[Dave400ex]

No I am not Sending it to Tom. I will have Jason Orr the Owner of Orr Motorsports here in Columbia City, IN build my Motor. He built my Brother`s TC 250r Motor and it is Awesome.

[whiteknuckle]

hey first of all wheres columbia city in? im in kokomo in! and i was told that a 416 kit costs 300 plus labor? im confused you guys are spending alot of money! 1100 dollars! man thats alot! for a 416! i asked the question somewhere about how much it is and all the guys said it was around 300 for parts about 40 bucks to have it bored and then labor if i didnt do it is that right? and if so wheres a good place to look for the 416 kit? thanks guys! i dont need some race awesome setup but i want reliability i dont want to mess up my motor!

Marcums atv is the place to go and get the 416 kit,,,the reason this on is more is he bought a carb with it, plus a more expensive cam than normal drop in cams,,,the sparks 416 outa rip I'm sure..but most TC 416 kits come with full race porting, hinson clutch components, Lectron carb, etc.

[Foxrage]

What is murcums 416 kit like does it have the hich comp piston like that one. I might get marcums 416 with a sparks or tc cam. Y did that sparks cost so much????

Marcums is a 10.8:1 compression,,that 12.5 is a big jump and it'll honk I'm quiet sure..but that 12.5 is race gas only,,the 10.8:1 can be used with pump gas or a mix or pure race gas..I run about a 30/70 mix of pump to race gas.

[MIKE400EX]

Definetly check the valves and grind/lap as necessary. You'll already have the head off, it's quick, and the OEM job is not the greatest (although I've seen ALOT worse from other makes). Might as well put some good valve seals in there too - they're cheap and worth it.

[ChadEXer]

I dont understand why guys get a TC or Sparks motor kit if their going to have a local shop or builder install them???:confused: Dont most motor kits from builders come with the JE piston and stuff??? The same thing you could get from Marcums for half the price the engine builders sale them???? you could get the TC or Sparks cam from TC or Sparks if thats the cam you wanted but why not get the other parts much cheaper??? Plus in my opinion its not a "Sparks or TC" if it doesnt have their complete work on it,,,Porting with their flow bench testing is one of the best things about having the builders build your motor???? i dont really think a Sparks 416 installed locally will really compare to a full race TC 416 built completely and ported by TC!!!
X-Rider,,,Did you decide to go with Sparks instead of TC???

[ChadEXer]

Originally posted by NACS400EX
What is murcums 416 kit like does it have the hich comp piston like that one. I might get marcums 416 with a sparks or tc cam. Y did that sparks cost so much????
If your going to have it built locally then you would definately save money this way!!! And you can get any compression piston you want with the Marcums kit!!!! 10.8:1,,11:1,,whatever you want!!!
Why give so much extra money for the stuff just because your buying it from an engine builder???

[Evan]

I wasnt aware marcums sold FCRs and I also wasnt aware that they came with the throttle cable. I dont know if marcums sells a 12.5 JE piston either, I already run race gas so I might as well take advantage of it. Also marcums doesnt sell sparks cam or an identical one. Even if they did sell the piston I would be just buying one thing from them, I can get my cylinder bored for little to nothing.(thats where I am headed right now) And my motor is being built locally...by me. THis way I know what is done to it. Also I do plan haveing SParks port and flow, stiffer valves etc, but just not right now, its the middle of race season for cryinn out loud, I dont wanna miss a race. This kit will only take me 3 days to build and I will be back riding(well 1 day to install 2 days to ship). The reason I didnt go with TC is I just like what he was telling me, that valves etc wouldnt do me any good, plus I didnt want to use the lectron. So I guess I could have bought the piston and cam from him but oh well Sparks is good we all no it, other wise he wouldnt have been engine builder of the year. Maybe my motor wont be faster than a full TC 416 but at least I will be competitve, plus if I get 4th and 3rd place holeshots with a stock motor, just think what I can do with this. Maybe it wont be faster but I will be close enough that if he misses a shift then I got him. But I will give an honest report in my drag race against him.

Tore the motor apart going to get it bored and it will be back together this afternoon. I will let you know what happens. BTW I couldnt find why it was smoking unless it is the valve seals. Piston looked fine.

[VarmintHunter]

The cam in that picture looks just like the HRC cam that I have. Its a lot bigger than the stock cam, has the stock compression release and black oxide finish. The best price for that cam is about $270 (Service Honda) - most places want closer to $400.

[ChadEXer]

Marcums can get a 12.5:1 JE piston and Im pretty sure he can get a FCR too! i just noted that you said "Which would you rather have save 400 bucks and be riding or spend 1500 and not be riding for 6-8 weeks all for a neglible difference(We'll find out)" thats just the deal when it comes to a good motor being built,,,you gotta wait!!!!!

[VegasEx'r]

Originally posted by VarmintHunter
The cam in that picture looks just like the HRC cam that I have. Its a lot bigger than the stock cam, has the stock compression release and black oxide finish. The best price for that cam is about $270 (Service Honda) - most places want closer to $400.

xr's only has a copy of that cam for about $180. It supposedly has the exact same specs, and doesn't require hard-faced rockers.

I agree that the cam looks just like the HRC cam. Nothing against xrsonly, but it's hard to beat Honda quality. Have fun with your new engine, someday day when mine needs a rebuild, I'd like to add a high compression big bore to it. And like you, I'll be doing the work myself. There's a lot of satisfaction in taking it apart and putting it back together and hearing it run and staying together.

Enjoy.

[Chef]

You guys are talking about $1100 bein alot for a motor...wow...

[JhallettEX]

Alky......Don't you have 5k in just your motor?

[ChadEXer]

Originally posted by Alky472
You guys are talking about $1100 bein alot for a motor...wow...
I hear that!!!!!

[Dave400ex]

If you are just getting a Engine Builders Piston and Cam why would you want the Engine Builder to Build it? Tom told me there is no reason to Send my Motor to him. He said to just have my Local Honda Dealer do it. If I was going to Port and all that Crap I would Send it out, but Tom said for XC Racing he doesn`t do any of that. He just runs a 425 Piston, XC Cam, and his Pipe. That`s why I am having it Built Locally. It will still be a TC Motor.

[Chef]

Originally posted by ChadEXer

I hear that!!!!!

Yea...I mean come on, is $1100 really that much for a motor that runs strong? Hey chad, just a tip, I was told $2700 for my motor at first too...then it was 4400...just lettin ya know to expect the unexpected.

And yes, after both carbs and the full exhaust...it was just a tad over that :eek: :eek:

[Evan]

Just got back the cylinder will be ready on monday, kinda sucks I was hopin to ride this weekend.
BTW anyone know the clearence on my JE 87mm the guy at sparks told me some number but it was way wrong.

[ChadEXer]

if Tom calls me up and tells me i owe him $4400,,,looks like he will be keeping a 505!!! No really,,,I told Tom when i called him that I have $2500 to spend on my motor and want the fastest motor out there,,,,,,he said he can do the 505 with no problem for that amount but no pipe,,so i added the pipe for an extra $300. I told Tom I wont have more than $2800 so dont go over that and he said that wont be a problem. Shipping cost me about $175 to get it there and will prolly be about $100 to get it back,,,so in all this is costing me about $3100!!!!
Warriorman, i was just saying why buy the piston kit from the builder for $350 when you can get the same thing from marcums for prolly$175?? Then you could just get the cam from TC!
i dont remember if Tom is using JE pistons or if he has his own,,do you know Warriorman??? i know he is using a 12.5:1 piston in mine but dont remember what kind.

I'm pretty sure Tom's a JE piston kinda guy..:blah

[Dave400ex]

I`m not sure what Tom uses. I thought he used Wiseco. The 425 Piston Kit is around $120 and I thought that was a little Cheap for a JE Piston. I`ll have to ask 51 and see if he knows, if not I`ll ask Tom this Weekend at Red Bud. I`m not sure what Compression I want to get yet. I`ll ask Tom which one he likes. I can get 104 at the Gas Station for $3.60 a Gallon and that is a lot Cheaper then VP or Klotz.

Yeah $1,100 is not that much Money. My Brother`s also started out at $2,500 and ended up at $2,800. Well after he got the Motor back together we found out the Case was Cracked and then the Ignition Box went out. I think those were around $500. One of these Days everything will be New on his 250R.

[ChadEXer]

I almost picked me up an R the other day:D Then I would have to go through this spendind spree again and i just cant afford it!!!!

[Dave400ex]

No you would Spend a lot more on a 250r then you would your 400. They are Expensive.

[ChadEXer]

I know,,,thats why I cant afford it!!!!!

chad if you get a 87mm 12.5:1 from marcus its going to coast close to the 189 that sparks charges. Also when you the fcr from sparks you get the cable and pre jetted by curtis sparks. and you get great service from them. The last thing i order from marcus was ac nefs and the box was beat up and missing hardware.

[ChadEXer]

Your prolly right,,,I was just wondering,,I have never compared prices I was just figuring that maybe you could save doing it that way!! I have bought over $2000 worth of stuff from Marcums and havent had one problem yet!!!!

[Evan]

Well I got it back together and am doing the breakin. Took alot longer than I expected to have it together. First off the machine shop guy took longer than expected, then when I started rebuilding, everything that could go wrong, went wrong. Got the cam chain stuck down in the bottom so I had to take clutch cover off, then couldnt find the spring for the cam locator for the decompression realease on the cam, then I wrung to bolts off while putting the valve cover on and streched several. They dont tell you in the manual how tight to get em. I was just putting them on with a regular ratchet and snap, torqueing the 8mm bolt on top and snap. So I took the cover back off and luckly the bolts werent in the head very tight, like the 8mm I just tapped out with a punch and hammer, how is that tight enough to snap a bolt. So I went and got new bolts and put them in with a stubby ratchet so I knew I wouldnt overtighten then. Got it together and fired over on about the 3rd lick, thats when you know youre a good mechanic:D Imediatly you could tell it had a cam, cuz it has a little bit of a growl to it. I love it. Rolled it out and putted around at 1/4 throttle, its jumpy and has a few jetting issues but that will get worked out, you cant expect to put it together and not have jetting problems. Well when the first tank of gas goes through it I will then give it hel and let you know how runs, IE compared to a modded raptor and a TC 416.

[Dave400ex]

I want to know on the Race against the TC 416.

[Evan]

Well I finished w/ the 1/4 throttle break in so I decided to move to half throttle. Well let me tell you, I defintely have some jetting problems to be worked out, but even with it jetted improperly, and half throttle, it would easily tote the front tires into a wheelie in 2nd, kinda like a raptor. It would even do it in third if you caught it just right, but the jetting was affecting it, so it was kinda whenever it wanted to. I was going up a slight incline and hit to half throttle and it pulled a wheelie, and I downshifted when I stopped and found I had done it in 5th:eek: never done that b4. I cant imagine how it feels when I get it jetted and run it full throttle. I would say I saw 500 dollars worth of power today, I cant wait till I see the other 500. Also I was constantly in a higher gear than usall, I rarely saw 5th when rode stock now it seems like I am 5th all the time and have the power to lug it out. I cant wait to race it, I will be hanging on for dear life. It needs jetting but not sure what, its only when you throttle it realitively fast. What are your suggestions Rich or lean. I am running no airbox lid w/ K&N its a 165 main in the FCR now, should I move up or down or mess with the air screw if I can ever find it.

[Pro400EXC]

OK, hye guys, I talked to JE Piston reps at a race (drag race), all there 4stroke off-road vehicle(atv's and dirtbikes) .

Well JE's off-road vehicle pistons are made by Wiesco,and JE just put there name on it.

I found this out like 2months ago,but he also told me in a lil while, they will finally start building there own off-road pistons.

[ChadEXer]

I heard that Wiseco bought JE but kept manufacturing the JE line of pistons!

[Dave400ex]

Chad do you know what kind of Pistons Tom uses?

If Wiseco makes JE then why does everybody say JE is better? They would be the same. I think this is something I shoud Call Wiseco about.

[Evan]

I find that hard to belive since the highest comp. ratio wiseco makes is an 11:1 and JE can custom make you one all the way to 13:1 maybe higher. I have compared a wiseco and a JE and they look nothing alike, maybe wiseco bought JE but JE still makes there pistons. I read somewhere on here that the wiseco 11:1 piston was not a true 11:1 ratio. Also from what I have learned from another site about 2 strokes (I dont know if it applies to 4 strokes) the wiseco is defintely not a piston you want since for some reason when it heats up it expands but when it cools it doesnt return to normal shape, so it wears on your cylinder alot. This is why 99% of the 2 stroke riders use Pro X pistons. I freind of mine used both a Pro X and a Wiseco when he rebuilt his dirtbike and he said just from the kick you could tell the wiseco didnt have as much compression and it didnt run as good as the pro x. You can take this how you want but I wouldnt run wiseco in anything I run now.

[Dave400ex]

Well I think I want a JE Piston. I need to see what TC uses. My Brother has a Nik`s Piston in his 250r.

Originally posted by WarriorMan
Chad do you know what kind of Pistons Tom uses?


I"m almost postive Tom uses JE pistons. I got me a JE piston in this here 416ex..:D

[Dave400ex]

I hope Tom uses JE. I want a JE Piston. I just have to figure out if I want a 416 or a 425. I like the Pipe Rico.

[ChadEXer]

Yes Tom uses JE pistons,,he is using a JE 12.5:1 in mine. The deal is Wiseco bought JE but JE has a whole seperate plant and machines and a whole different manufacturing process, but Wiseco owns it!!

[Dave400ex]

Thanks Chad. I still don`t know what that Noise is my 400 is making. I`m going to have it looked at. Maybe I will have a 416 or 425EX with a XC Cam.

[ChadEXer]

Go ahead and get it done Warriorman!!!! you know you want to:D

[Dave400ex]

Yes I do want it, but I need Shocks, Rims and Tires, and a Steering Stabilizer worse then my Motor.

[kabd69667]

What's the use in having the power if you can't handle it?

[Evan]

Exactly, thats what I try to tell everyone, do your suspension mods first then if your slow, upgrade the engine.

I messed with the air screw today, tried leaning it and that helped but I decided to richen it and that helped better. Its is still not spot on, it hesitates if you wick it open sometimes, that might mean I need to raise or lower the needle. I am not sure, I am not a jetter, I mean I dont have the ear of a tuner, I can tell if its rich or lean but beyaond that I am clueless. If you tell me whats wrong I can easily fix it, ie change a jet, raise or lower the needle. Anyway I had almost a tank of gas run through it so I couldnt wait any longer it was FULL THROTTLE time. No mercy. It is definately impressive, it has power everywhere. Alot faster than I expected but doesnt have the power I expected, ie armwrenching eye watering pulling power. I rode it at my practice track and could run almost a gear higher every where on the track. I was overjumping all of my jumps. In dragraces that were full throttle it would spin through 1st and 2nd and pull a wheelie in 3rd. But now that I have all this power it feels as if my clutch is going out, so that will be next. I really think it is close to having the power and torque of a raptor. I am sure it would easily stomp a stock one in a drag race. Well thats pretty much my review, i will let you know how it turns out in a race since that will be the real test.

[ChadEXer]

Hey X-rider, its going to feel like your clutch is going out but it probably isnt. I mean it very well could be going bad but now that you have more power you are having a lot more wheel spin and it seems like the clutch is going out!! I thought the same thing when i done my 416 but my clutch was fine! my friend put a 680 kit in his Raptor and he replaced his clutch the day before the drag races because he thought the same thing but it still felt that way even with the new clutch!! he messed his transmission up that day too!!!

[Evan]

Let me rephraise that.

My clutch is slipping, I dont know what it feels like when it goes out I have never had that happen. What its doing is when I shift from 2nd to 3rd, its spinning in 2nd and then when I shift to 3rd it grabs and you can watch the rear tires, they are not spinining but the motor is reving. Then you let out and it goes on. It doesnt do it all the time but just under hard accerleration and if you try to pull too high a gear.

[Dave400ex]

Sounds like you should be Saving for the Sparks 8 Plate Clutch Kit, Heavy Duty Clutch Springs, and a Hinson Basket. You could also go with the Full 8 Plate Hinson Setup.

[Evan]

bump for any of you interested in Sparks 416 kit.

[DantheEXman]

Are wiseco pistons really bad? I was goint to think about doing this but with a Wiesco Ultralite 10:1... Do you think I will notice a big difference on 10:1 compression? I mean I want to run pump gas (93) but want all the power I can get, And the ones that I can get are Wiseco's. 10:1 and 11:1... Whats your thoughts on this?

Get a JE 10.8:1,,you can run it on pump gas and everybody and their brother has them in their 400ex's with no problems..

[Steve-o 400EX]

Man i wish i had that setup! Thats about what i want to do to my 400 but i dont have that kinda money, YET!:devil