Anyone interested in what happened with the Oasis at Little Sahara, Oklahgoma?

[aviator4]

If so, I will get you up to date. Didn't want to post all the info unless anyone was interested.

Let me just say this... They've got $50,000 or $75,000 in quad parts and clothing ready for the start of the season. It Rocks!

[zephead400ex]

Right on! I have heard the Oasis was turning into a shop/part store, hell yes!

Is it open now or by spring break?

[aviator4]

They are busting their butts to get it open by spring break. I spent Monday and Tuesday of this week up there doing their Signage and just about anything else they needed.

the new shop is called "Little Sahara SandSports" - It's a division of Little Sahara Power Sports.

The inside of the shop looks great! It's a checkered Flag and Diamond plate theme. There's a stage where the coolers used to be and they will have three or four quads on show up there. Mine's going to be the yellow 400ex in the middle. :)

They've really done it up right. They've been working on it (and the campsites) all winter and are going first class all the way.

It's was a blast tearing the old Oasis sign down and putting up the new ones!

[zephead400ex]

Right on, that's cool! At least something is going to go right at the Oasis, or formally known as:D

Are they still going to sell gas? Still have the public sh*tters?...that's important! haha!

[aviator4]

Yeah, they're still going to sell gas. They have 1700 Gallons of Race fuel and 2700 Gallons of Super Unleaded coming down before this weekend.

the restrooms will still be public as well as far as I know.

[kssandduner]

Are they still going to be pumping the race gas straight out of the fifty gallon drums, or are they going to have an actual gas pump?

Joe

[aviator4]

It's going to be an actual gas pump. The tank is in the ground.

[Kansas T]

Are they still going to sell food?

[batgeek]

dang it...another place to spend money at Lil Sahara :(

see y'all in April!

[aviator4]

Nope, no food. There is now a restaurant right next to it though. It's called the "Heel Clicker Cafe"

[honduh440]

so is their going to be 2 quad parts stores right their in the south campground. only thing that sucks is we would always go eat breakfast their pretty good food they had oh well

[aviator4]

Acutally no. Since both shops are owned by the same people, they are splitting up the inventory. The original shop will sell the clothing, whips, stickers, helmets, goggles, gloves, etc.. but no ATV parts Per se with the exception of the tires... they will be at this shop simply because the mounting machine is up here.

The new shop (where the Oasis used to be) will sell all the hard parts, pipes, billet accessories, cool heads, sticker kits, shockwears, handlebars, levers, lights, chains, sprockets, nuts an bolts etc...

I think you're the first person to say the food at the Oasis was "good" - First time I ate there, I was blowin' chunks that whole day. I never went back.

When we wanna eat, we head down to Millers Cafe.

[pro6]

is somebody still renting out that trailer house north of the buggy shop? Or is it gone also.

We are coming down on the 18th do you think we should reserve a spot. Or could we get a spot if we got their at about 6 in the evening. Thanks

[aviator4]

The trailer house is now the campground management office.

I would recommend reserving a site. The are filling up FAST for that weekend for some reason.

[zephead400ex]

So the "Heel Clicker Cafe" is now open? ...that was fast.

Call me crazy, but the B&G at the Oasis wasn't too bad...helped cure a hangover:D

[kssandduner]

Call me crazy, but the B&G at the Oasis wasn't too bad...helped cure a hangover
I agree!! I've ate alot of their food over the years, and no complaints. One night my buddies and I went in there right before they were closing for the night, and they let us have all the food we wanted that was left over, it's hard to say how long it had been sitting under the heat lamps, but we didn't care, we were starving!!

RIP Oasis

Joe

[honduh440]

i always got a hambuger and tater totts and it tasted just like it was off the grill from home i dont think anyone could hate that

[allmixedup047]

Originally posted by zephead400ex
So the "Heel Clicker Cafe" is now open? ...that was fast.

Call me crazy, but the B&G at the Oasis wasn't too bad...helped cure a hangover:D

i liked the b&g. and the chicken strips and fries were always good too.

[honda_runner]

does anyone know the website for little sahara?

[Crowdog]

Originally posted by honda_runner
does anyone know the website for little sahara?

Here's a few:
Little Sahara, OK - Dune Guide (http://www.duneguide.com/sand_dune_guide_little_sahara_ok.htm)

Waynoka.com (http://www.waynoka.com/littlesahara/cgi-bin/index.cgi)

[pharit]

Originally posted by allmixedup047
i liked the b&g. and the chicken strips and fries were always good too.

B&G every moring and steak and burgers at night GOOD ****

[trx310]

I have always heard of little sahara but never been there. is it all drag racing or are there and 60-8- foot jumps? I live about an hour away from the kermit sand dunes and there is nothing but big jumps. Is little sahara worth the trip when I could take an hour drive, ride, and come back home?

[trx310]

also on the dune guide it says that an OHV registration stick is required for the kermit,TX sand dunes. That is bull. If you don't want to, you don't have to run stickers, flags, tailights, headlights, fenders, lol whatever it is. A sherriff drives through there once a day to make sure noone is ripping throught the parking lot or fighting and that's it. Kermit is only 10 miles away so an ambulance call only takes about 10 minutes. We get two people on quads and about 6 people on dirtbikes without headlights and ride fast all night. It's great. So you guys come on out and ride with us sometime, it's a blast.

[mrnate400ex]

Originally posted by trx310
also on the dune guide it says that an OHV registration stick is required for the kermit,TX sand dunes. That is bull. If you don't want to, you don't have to run stickers, flags, tailights, headlights, fenders, lol whatever it is. A sherriff drives through there once a day to make sure noone is ripping throught the parking lot or fighting and that's it. Kermit is only 10 miles away so an ambulance call only takes about 10 minutes. We get two people on quads and about 6 people on dirtbikes without headlights and ride fast all night. It's great. So you guys come on out and ride with us sometime, it's a blast.

uhhh....sounds dangerous!!! i think i will stick to my little sahara trips. :huh

[trx310]

the basic laws are enforced by the people. You act like an idiot, you get your *** whooped. pretty fun really, and not near as dangerous as u might think.

[honduh440]

sahara is deffinatly worth the trip their is one big area for drag racing and a real drag strip with a light tree and all then their is tons of big dunes that you can get as much air as you want on then a ton of trails which is personally my favorite the big events their have multiple thousands of people their so yes it is worth it

[tdsongster]

Is there a web site that tells about all the events, etc?

[DaleJrFan]

go to http://www.waynoka.com

[Crowdog]

Originally posted by trx310
also on the dune guide it says that an OHV registration stick is required for the kermit,TX sand dunes. That is bull. If you don't want to, you don't have to run stickers, flags, tailights, headlights, fenders, lol whatever it is. A sherriff drives through there once a day to make sure noone is ripping throught the parking lot or fighting and that's it. Kermit is only 10 miles away so an ambulance call only takes about 10 minutes. We get two people on quads and about 6 people on dirtbikes without headlights and ride fast all night. It's great. So you guys come on out and ride with us sometime, it's a blast.

In Texas, if you ride anywhere on public land, your must register your ATV for off-highway use. That's a Texas law. Now, since Kermit is mostly (or entirely) on private land, you may be right. But, you are going to lose your right to ride there if you don't treat that privaledge with respect.

Other rules for ATV use in Texas:
An Effective brake system;
A muffler system in good working condition;
A United States Forest Service qualified spark arrester; and
An effective headlight and taillight to be displayed one-half hour after sunset to one-half hour before sunrise,and at anytime when visibility is reduced.

But then again, I thought we were talking about Little Sahara.....

[skrib21]

Ive never been to little sahara, but Im going at the end of april this place looks like fun.The one question I have is how strict are they on the 10 foot flag law my flag is only a little over 9 feet from the ground.

[aviator4]

If it doesn't hit the pole at the entrance they will turn you around. If you need another flag, you can pick one up right there though.

[honduh440]

yeah you can get another one for cheap.

i remember a time my friend brought his little brother on his 80cc dirtbike and the flag wasnt tall enough so he taped 2 penciles together ontop of the flag so they hit the pole and knocked the flag back " the people at the gate dont pay to much attention"

[04'400ex'er]

Originally posted by skrib21
Ive never been to little sahara, but Im going at the end of april this place looks like fun.The one question I have is how strict are they on the 10 foot flag law my flag is only a little over 9 feet from the ground. that will work...its going to be on your quad so it will hit easy.

[pharit]

Whats up with the Dyno down there at the oasis??? anyone checked it out yet i was wondering how it was set up? how much it cost and if you get a dyno sheet and everything. i;ve heard somethings but nothing is 100% anyone checked it out???

[mrnate400ex]

go to waynoka.com and look under don's answers. i believe someone was wanting to know things about the dyno there too. i believe it was something like $35 for 2-3 runs depending on how good they were. not for sure, but go check it out.

[zephead400ex]

Originally posted by pharit
Whats up with the Dyno down there at the oasis??? anyone checked it out yet i was wondering how it was set up? how much it cost and if you get a dyno sheet and everything. i;ve heard somethings but nothing is 100% anyone checked it out???

I have heard nothing positive about their dyno. Everyone who has ran on a dyno previously then ran on their dyno, have got less than par readings. Now, I have never put my quad on a dyno but here is a scenario: my buddy, allmixedup311, has a 450r and put his quad on a dyno previously. He got a reading of 46hp. After installing the HRC kit and put it on the dyno a LSPS, he got a reading of like 46.6 HP. You can't tell me that the new piston, cam, etc. only added .6 HP. This is just one scenario, so take it with a grain of salt. But everything I have heard from everyone who ran on their machine, was off by about 3-5 HP. When you run they only let the machine run for about maybe 3 seconds at WOT then they shut the machine down. That isn't going to give you an accurate reading b/c it hasn't fully hit the highest RPM's.

Like I said, take all this w/ a grain of salt but for the amount of money you pay, run on a different dyno.

Just my $.02.

[aviator4]

My experience was totally different. I was there when DynoJet installed and calibrated the dyno. I saw them give instruction to the guys on how to run it, I saw them run several bikes and get accurate results. I've read the manual on the DynoJet Dyno, and they are doing it right.

My 400ex dynoed at 30.5 horse, which is dead on. I was running a little rich, so I dropped 2 jet sizes and changed the plug (the old one was black and sooty) then re-dynoed it and it was spot on, checked the plug and it was brown, meaning the jetting was right on.

My buddies EX dynoed at 30.12 horse, which was right on as well, given his mods.

My brother Dynoed his DS and got 40.0 Horse with 35.58 ft/lbs of torque, which is right for a stock DS (sans pipe).

They were instructed to run the bikes up to max rpm and then "coast" them back down. The power band happens in the middle of the RPM range, so max horse/torque shoud easily be achieved. Since the readings are real-time, it's easy to see when the power band peaks and then falls back off.

I have seen several pro drag guys dyno their bikes on it and compare it to readings from other dynos and they are spot on.

How far did your buddies torque readings jump after the mods? I bet it was substantial. Torque is the measure power. HP is the measure of how much "work" an engine can do in that torque range.

For example, Banshees turn some serious horsepower, but their torque band is usually pretty low since they are 2 strokes.

we must have run our bikes on there 50 times in different configurations and styles of running the bikes up and got VERY close results, usually withing .05 horse of each other.

[zephead400ex]

Aviator, I hear what your saying and am not disputing you by any means. I guess each dyno machine is different but from every story I heard this past weekend, it hasn't measured up to other machines. Now, I'm not saying the machine is not calibrated correctly or is not being run correctly, this is what I have heard on a quite a few occasions. I just hope everything is setup and ran correctly b/c of the amount of money paid for each run.

BTW, where were you camped at? I looked for you bike but never saw you anywhere. I figured I'd stop and shoot the bull with ya and have a beer or two!:D

[aviator4]

LOL. You and about 100 other people! :eek2: I was up in spot number 9 above the the "old" Oasis. We spent a goodly amount of time down at the new Little Sahara Sand Sports. We ran our bikes on the Dyno late Saturday night and then again Sunday. One of the down sides to being "incahoots" with the guys that run the place is being "in demand" any time we're up there, which cuts into riding time. I think we rode about 1/4 the time we wanted to. Next time will be different though.

I was surprised not more people came up to say "yo." We had a crowd of about 25 or 30 though up in the three campsites we had most of the time. I tried to keep my quad parked out in front of my truck so that everyone could see it.

Sorry we missed each other. We are trying to plan another trip for early April and will keep ya posted. Eventually, we're going to have a flag with a rotating beacon mounted on top of it so people can find us. I've had a lot of people say they've looked for us unsuccessfully. Oh, and our crowd is just getting bigger... I bought three youth quads this week and picked up a 250EX for my wife to ride. My brothers sandrail is all ready to go back out to the dunes after a clutch replacement and he's thinking about getting his wife a YFZ450 AND he just picked up a new 20 foot trailer.... next purchase is going to have to be an RV... I just know it. ugh... I'm broke enough as it is!

About the dyno: I wonder if the difference in the dyno runs has something to do with the weather. I know that it really affects performance engines, which quads are considered and with top alcohol dragsters and stuff. I bet that had something to do with it.

One of the reasons they do several runs on the dyno is so that they can get a "median" of all of them. What was your bud's 450R reading on other dynos?

[zephead400ex]

Hmm...the weather comment kind of makes sense. I'm not exactly sure what other #'s by buddies quad was putting out on other machines, I just know that he was disappointed in the readings but wasn't making a "stink" about it, it was just in passing coversation.

Sounds like you guys are going to have to get another truck and trailer with all the quads you've acquired, haha!

I know we are making another trip down the weekend of April 15th. If your there, we'll get together and rip some sand!

Take care bro!

[aviator4]

Sounds like a plan. I'll let ya know when we're supposed to be headed down and see if we can't get it planned for that same weekend.

[zephead400ex]

Sounds good man!

[Bad Habit]

Back on the dyno question..............allmixedup311's quad with only the HRC kit hit a peak of 40.6hp on another dyno. Now with a 13:1 piston, ported head, and new exhaust it made 40.9hp at peak. Weather conditions will have an effect on the power, but these parameters are loaded into the software. The correction factors are there to take into account different variables to give as consistent readings as possible for comparison. I witnessed several quads run that I either had a hand in building, or I know what went into the builds. My best guess is that this particular dyno reads a good 5hp lower than many others I have seen.

Not a big deal though, obtaining a peak number from a dyno is mostly for bragging rights, and I'm not that concerned with the peak number. What I am concerned with is the curve, so I was disappointed to see the bottom axis of the graph using wheel speed as the measurement. This makes the runs somewhat useless to do any real accurate tuning.

BTW Aviator, if you talk to the guys down there, they said that they would email me the run files from my quad and a few others. I haven't received the email yet, so maybe you could give them a reminder for me. I have the dyno software so I am able to change the graphs to view the curve as it relates to rpm and not mph.

[aviator4]

A pickup of .3 horse isn't out of whack. A lot of it depends on the jetting and the type of exhaust.

For example, using a stock exhaust with a high compression piston will actually make your HP rating go down. What kind of pipe did he put on that bike and what was his jetting, do you know?

What would you rather see at the bottom of the graph, rather than wheel speed? To me, thats important. I wanna see how fast the axle is turning at a given RPM, for sprocket adjustments.

[zephead400ex]

There we go, straight from the horses mouth:D Now I'll quit my rambling.:devil:

[Bad Habit]

Originally posted by aviator4
A pickup of .3 horse isn't out of whack. A lot of it depends on the jetting and the type of exhaust.

For example, using a stock exhaust with a high compression piston will actually make your HP rating go down. What kind of pipe did he put on that bike and what was his jetting, do you know?

What would you rather see at the bottom of the graph, rather than wheel speed? To me, thats important. I wanna see how fast the axle is turning at a given RPM, for sprocket adjustments.
Raising the static compression nearly 3 points, improving the flow of the head, and adding a better flowing exhaust only raises the peak hp by .3 isn't out of whack??????? There is signifigantly more added than that. If there weren't, no one on this planet would be able to "feel" the difference when doing this type of engine modification. Again, peak hp isn't everything, but the mods I just mentioned will not only raise the peak, they will show an increase throughout the entire rpm range. There was not a notable increase anywhere along the rpm range when compared with the previous run.

However, I'm not trying to dispute whether or not his bike has a signifigant increase over it's previous state, there's no question on that. I was merely trying to give some observations of what I witnessed based on my experiences.

I myself don't want to see how fast the axle is turning at a given rpm (even if I wanted to I couldn't due to the fact that rpm is not shown on the graphs that are given out). I want to see how the engine is performing at a given rpm. The rest of the setup comes after the engine is optimum.

[Bad Habit]

Originally posted by zephead400ex
There we go, straight from the horses mouth:D Now I'll quit my rambling.:devil:
Horses mouth?? Preston, I'm usually referred to as the other end of the horse. :blah:

[aviator4]

No, thats not out of whack. Given the small displacement of the engine and the amount of horsepower that it allready generates. Now, if you were taking a stock lawn mower engine and did similar mods, you would see marked improvements because it's designed for efficiency, not power, but the engine in a sport quad is allready "race" tuned from the manufacturer, meaning it's been tuned to develope lots of horsepower and torque, given the displacement. Again, my questions as to what pipe and what jetting weren't answered, so I can't make an accurate assessment. If he's fouling plugs, running really rich or really lean, or running a pipe thats restrictive (like a slip-on and a stock header pipe), it could all play a factor. I would be interested to see where his torque curves are as well. Heck, even HotCams Inc doesn't claim to add more than a .5 horse with their wildest cam.

Oh, and porting the head of a sport bike is, by general consencus, the most expensive way to get the least amount of gains. You will generally see improvements in the 1/100th's area.

3 tenths of a horse IS noticeable on a quad because of the thrust to weight ratio of the bike and the allready small horsepower ratings (compared to a full size vehicle). Heck, 1/10 can be felt easily.

It's not uncommon for high end builders to work their butts off for just 1/10 of a horse, not to mention 1/3.

I stand by my claim that his results sound about right.

[zephead400ex]

Originally posted by Bad Habit
Horses mouth?? Preston, I'm usually referred to as the other end of the horse. :blah:

Eh, I like ya Dan, I'll give you a little credit, I don't care what your wife says!

[aviator4]

Okay, I just got off the phone with the guys at DynoJet and they brought up a very good point.

Tires make a HUGE difference. The tires that we run out here may be different size and different air pressures than the dyno he used the first time. This can make for a 2-3 horsepower difference in readings. Even the same tire on a different wheel can make a difference. If he want's accurate readings of multiple dyno's he needs to carry his own flat track tires and check the air pressure in them before every dyno run. Thats the only way to do it.

Other than that, comparisons between readings on different dynos cant be made accuratley.

[Bad Habit]

Originally posted by aviator4
I stand by my claim that his results sound about right.
And I'll stand by mine. You mean to tell me that a 1% increase in peak hp is considered normal for these types of component improvements? Head porting will typically gain you .01hp? I think I'd find a new machinist if that were the case.

I'm not a newbie to any of this. As I stated before, I was merely trying to be helpful by lending some of my experiences to someone that is brand new to dyno tuning. If someone is taking money from people in exchange for a service, they better know what they are doing. I wish them luck.

[Bad Habit]

Originally posted by aviator4
Tires make a HUGE difference.
Yes they do, and I brought this up to the guy (I can't remember his name) that was running the dyno. Tire size should be entered into the software for the calculations, but the tread and pressure will make a huge difference. The tires they used were ballooned and the design of those Duro's have huge gaps inbetween the lugs. You can see the wear pattern on the treads and the contact patch is about half what it should be.

The percentage of the drum brake will also affect the readings.

2-3 hp difference.........we're getting closer. Like I stated before, based on my experiences with others, this dyno reads about 5 lower than the average.

[aviator4]

Sure, I understand, and I with you there. I expect to get what I pay for as well. The last thing I wantis bogus numbers on my bike.

I have a hard time believing that there's something wrong when the guys from Dynojet look at 20-30 records from our dyno and say "Yup, thats correct."

If anyone knows what they're doing, they do... they made the thing and they make their living (and got their reputation) by their expertise.

I'm not a newbie either. The only reason you gain so little by porting (and polishing if you like) is because the inside of the ports are fairly smooth to begin with. Any improvements you make on the Honda engine is being made on an engine that is allready very very good. If anything, it's a testament to the manufacturer.

[Bad Habit]

Originally posted by aviator4
I have a hard time believing that there's something wrong


The only reason you gain so little by porting (and polishing if you like) is because the inside of the ports are fairly smooth to begin with. Any improvements you make on the Honda engine is being made on an engine that is allready very very good. If anything, it's a testament to the manufacturer.
I wasn't really implying that something was wrong. I was stating that this particular dyno as setup is reading much lower than average....due to several reasons.


Although the TRX450R head is very good, there is alot of room for improvement. And as much as it pains me (Honda die-hard) to say this, it has the most obstruction of the big three in it's class, YFZ and LTZ being the other two. Having said that, there is more to gain from properly porting the TRX head than the others.

[pharit]

Originally posted by aviator4
Okay, I just got off the phone with the guys at DynoJet and they brought up a very good point.

Tires make a HUGE difference. The tires that we run out here may be different size and different air pressures than the dyno he used the first time. This can make for a 2-3 horsepower difference in readings. Even the same tire on a different wheel can make a difference. If he want's accurate readings of multiple dyno's he needs to carry his own flat track tires and check the air pressure in them before every dyno run. Thats the only way to do it.

Other than that, comparisons between readings on different dynos cant be made accuratley.

i;d beleive that last year around this time Sport rider (Crotch rocket mag) had a huge article about how the hi preformance GP bikes dyno would be complete different before and after a race due to the tire. Brand new tire at the beginning and half of it left on the track after a race equals less weight for the motor to spin and that was throwing the dyno off on this grand prix bikes.


so my questions is can u just run my knobbys on the dyno machine??

[allmixedup047]

well they dont have any skat trak products at all. donnie said they have never had them and probably never will. all jim carries is triple buff hualers, so pretty much dont plan on buying hualers down at LS. get them befor you go if thats what you want.

as for the dyno runs, i think bad habit has voiced my opinions about the dyno. i was a little off on the jetting but i dont think it was enough to make a 5hp difference. as far as the 13:1 piston, head work and dr.d pipe adding only .4 hp, i highly doubt it. the air was cooler by 30 degrees and less humidity this run and still onyl .4hp increase. that alone could have added .4hp, then the mods on top of that. i see what your saying about the stock head pipe aviator, but i think if that was the issue it would have shown in the hp and torque curves on the graph. IMO the curves are alright.

after Dan, Derick, and myself dynoed, the kid running it was telling everyone that it was 5hp low. something else i noticed was the sudden stop of the drum after the run. the kid didnt touch the brake and still the drum stoped after about 3 seconds when the pull was over. that was a little weird if you ask me, maybe the brake on the dyno was slightly engaged. every dyno i have seen takes a little while for the drum to stop. i think the people running the dyno should be a little more knowledgeable in the field of motors. the guy doing the pulls asked the guy from reaction racing a couple pulls befor me what the air screw does on the carb, then proceeded to tell me what to do with my air screw not knowing anything about it. for 35 bucks a pull i think the guy should be able to tell you excactly what to do with your jetting.

anyways heres a pic of my dyno sheet. my guess of the chatter at the begining of the curves would be tire bounce. for what its worth i am very dissapointed in the whole set up with that dyno, and for sure wouldnt drop another 35 bucks to run on it again.

[allmixedup047]

another thing i thought i would add that i thought was kinda funny. if im correct the tires used on this run were 20inch tires. the ones used on my old run were 18 inch tires. i went back up to a 14t front sprocket, used 20inch tires plus my mods and lost 1mph on top speed. not that top speed makes a difference to me, but i thought it was a little weird that i dropped speed under those conditions.

another mod i forgot to add was that i opened my air box up and put in a k&n since my last run. that by itself is supposed to add a little hp.

[honduh440]

the dyno is horrible its an absolute joke "redracer44" can speak on that from expierence


their also was a ds650 on alchol their last time that got dynoed at 31hp!!!!!!!! the guy flipped out and all the people could say was "guess well have to have the guy come out and look at it"

[aviator4]

allmixedup, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience on the Dyno. I do agree that the person running it needs to be knowledgable on engines before he starts giving advice. Mike (the kid you're referring to) is working very hard increase his knowledge of engines, settings, and how everything ties together.

I'm not going to blame the kid for asking an experienced group of guys questions about needles, jets, or anything else, if he feels he can gain some knowledge. Why he was recommending jetting settings, I don't know. You're supposed to take your print-out inside and let Don Blalock look at it. He can give you the proper advice.

If you're running the stock headpipe, your HP and torque curves would be low, but you wouldn't be able to see a distinct "spot" in your graph tht would give it away. Are you running your stock header? Please tell me you're not. After all the other mods you've done!!!!

Mike doesn't have to touch a brake anywhere to make the drums stop, it's done by sensors automatically.

Okay.. this concerns me:

anyways heres a pic of my dyno sheet. my guess of the chatter at the begining of the curves would be tire bounce.

thats the bike shifting through the gears to get wheel speed up. Please tell me you're kidding when you said "wheel bounce"

As stated before, According to DynoJet, you can't really compare results from one Dyno to another - you have to use the same dyno every time to get consistant results.

[ds650rider]

Okay, I gotta chime in here! I consider Lance and Don personal freinds. You guys need to cut them some slack! They JUST got the the thing. I don't see you guys up there running the dyno. If you guys are such experts why are you asking him what to do to your bikes to make them run better?

The "Bounce" you are refering to at the beginning of your run is where he was up shifting into 4 gear for the pull! Remember? I'm sorry if your are dissapointed with your results. It may be a little off, the thing is BRAND NEW! If you are not happy with the results, maybe you could ask for a refund and explain why you want one.

Trashing LSPS's brand new Dyno that they bought because of the overwhelming request for it is NOT COOL!

Give them a chance to fix the "problems" and get the bugs out.

As far as their suggestions to up your power, ask three different people what you should do and you will get three different answers. No one can be an expert of EVERY bike and set up out there. Their are simply too many.

Did you ever stop to think that just MAYBY the OTHER dyno you used was out of calibration and showing MORE power than you actually have? There is a possibility, huh?
I ran my DS and posted the results on 3 different DS fourums and all agreed they were what they expected to see with the bolt-on mods I got.

:macho

[Bad Habit]

Originally posted by aviator4
If you're running the stock headpipe, your HP and torque curves would be low, but you wouldn't be able to see a distinct "spot" in your graph tht would give it away. Are you running your stock header? Please tell me you're not. After all the other mods you've done!!!!
Do you have much experience with the 450R engine? I thought you said these new engines come in a very high state of tune from the factory so performance mods would only gain very small percentages of power? But the stock headpipe (which by your definition is a high performance piece) is going to kill the power? Look, I'm not trying to start anything, but frankly, alot of your comments on this subject are flat out wrong. You are making some very general statements about performance gains to qualify what was registered on this dyno with this particular quad.

Please tell me you're kidding when you said "wheel bounce"
Yes, the beginning of the graph jumping up and down is the roller speed as it is being brought up through the gears.
Bounce, hop, skip, chatter, slip....call it what you want but I guarantee that those brand new ballooned up tires are not making good contact with the roller. Take a look at the wear on the treads and you can see that the contact patch is minimal. This WILL affect the readings you will get on the dyno and you could see this if the graph was using rpm. The software is reading the mph of the roller, so the chatter is not registered and the curve looks smooth. But you would see flutters in the graph when measuring against rpm because the software would be able to detect the slight rpm fluctuations as the tires slip.

As stated before, According to DynoJet, you can't really compare results from one Dyno to another - you have to use the same dyno every time to get consistent results.
This is absolutely true, but this particular dyno is giving results 15-20% lower than others. As I said, peak numbers don't really concern me much, but it's the sole reason for alot of guys to get on a dyno....bragging rights. Unless you do the dyno to register against rpm and do the run only in one gear, the only thing it's really good for is seeing what the peak number is, and a ballpark on the A/Fr. So seeing as how this dyno is best suited for showing what the peak numbers are, and it's showing substantially lower than most, there is going to be some upset people.


I think everyone is getting a little too worked up on this deal. Go back and re-read my posts, I for one was not bashing on the guys down there. As I stated more than once, I was just trying to give some input as I realize this is still very new to them. I talked to Mike a few times down there and gave him a couple suggestions, I'm sure they'll get everything figured out. It's like any new toy, you have to have some time playing with it before it becomes old hat.

[ds650rider]

First,
I dont thing there is as much tire slip as you think, there may be some. If you think there is, have him strap the bike down harder. I know mine was not straped down very tite. If their was much you would smell rubber and see a little tire smoke. As for the tires, if there was a problem running them, I think Dynojet would have cought it on the set-up and let them know.
As far as getting worked up, your right we are. There are a lot of people that read this, remember an ounce of "slam" goes a long way.
I would like to see the results of the dyno test you are comparing the LSPS dyno too. Post a picture of the runs from it! I'd like to see you back up you claims of 15-20% less HP.
I don't mind you posting your "rants" here but you better be able to back them up. That is all I am saying.
If the LSPS dyno is off thye need to know. I can promise you they will have Dynojet out to look at it. If you have proof lets get it to Dynojet and show them there IS a problem.
That is all I am saying.

[aviator4]

Personally,

my opinion is if you don't like the readings and think the dyno sucks, then don't run on it. There are too many people very very VERY happy with the results they are getting from the Dyno. There is no shortage of customers, both amature and professional. Loosing a customer because you just can't make them happy and show MEGA horsepower increases doesn't bother me.

The dyno is accurate by DynoJet's standards. It's up to you to prove otherwise.

[honduh440]

i recommend driving up to wichita kansas only 2 hours north of waynoka and using Nmotions dyno.

[Bad Habit]

Guys, ease up a bit here. Go back a re-read my posts, tell me where I am posting a "rant" about the dyno. How many times do I have to say that I was merely trying to give some feedback from my experiences with other dynos? I don't have to prove or back up anything. If Don, Lance, or Mike do not want any suggestions, that's fine with me. I know when I'm doing something new I'll take all the outside comments and suggestions as I can get. It's no skin off my back either way.

[ds650rider]

Bad Habit,
I have gone back and read your posts. All I see is a basically a verbal attack on aviator4, and nothing good to say about the dyno at LSPS. I have yet to read a "suggestion" from you about the dyno, all I see is you telling everybody how wrong it is. I also see you telling aviator4 that he is full of crap because he is telling you the truth about your mods. On that note, upping the compression, putting on a slip-on exhaust and doing a little porting, and you expect BIG numbers form the dyno. Come on, you are using a stock cam, stock carb, stock air box, no re-jetting, stock head pipe. You are not moving any more air in and out of the engine! How much more power were you expecting? All the compression in the world won't help much if you can't move the air!
Okay, maybe you are not on a "rant", that may be a little harsh. But you are not making a lot of since here. I went back and read aviator4's post; I got to say the guy is right on the money about the mods. You have not really done a whole lot to up the power. You probably should have gone with a bigger cam. Get more use out of that port work. Bigger cam, bigger/better carb, full pipe, that will get you numbers on the dyno.

[Bad Habit]

Originally posted by ds650rider
Bad Habit,
I have gone back and read your posts. All I see is a basically a verbal attack on aviator4, and nothing good to say about the dyno at LSPS. I have yet to read a "suggestion" from you about the dyno, all I see is you telling everybody how wrong it is. I also see you telling aviator4 that he is full of crap because he is telling you the truth about your mods. On that note, upping the compression, putting on a slip-on exhaust and doing a little porting, and you expect BIG numbers form the dyno. Come on, you are using a stock cam, stock carb, stock air box, no re-jetting, stock head pipe. You are not moving any more air in and out of the engine! How much more power were you expecting? All the compression in the world won't help much if you can't move the air!
Okay, maybe you are not on a "rant", that may be a little harsh. But you are not making a lot of since here. I went back and read aviator4's post; I got to say the guy is right on the money about the mods. You have not really done a whole lot to up the power. You probably should have gone with a bigger cam. Get more use out of that port work. Bigger cam, bigger/better carb, full pipe, that will get you numbers on the dyno.
Well, like I said numerous times, I talked to Mike while I was down there and gave him the suggestions since he is the one running the dyno.

Who said that this quad had the stock cam, stock jetting, stock airbox..........or was even my quad! You obviously didn't re-read my posts very carefully. If you had, you would have seen where I asked aviator how much experience he has modifying the 450R engine. I'm going to venture a guess and say zero. Please don't give me advise on things you know nothing about.

I'm done giving any input in this. And I'm sure that others will feel this same way if this is how it is received. A closed mind will never gain additional knowledge.

[ds650rider]

Exactly, you never said much about what was done!! How can you make a case for yourself when you won't lay the facts on the table!!!
Come on what ARE the facts!!! You never said it was yours, you defend it like it is!
Well, like I said. What are your sugestions, I would love to hear them. We have addressed all the "sugestions" you have made.
You didn't say what other mods there were, you didn't list them so I assumed there were no more. If there are more, lets here what they are.
As for him knowing much about the 450R, you don't need to, from what you are posting, there are a lot more things to be done. The mods are common to just about evey 4 stroke bike. What is so special about the 450R?
Don't leave, it was just getting fun!

[allmixedup047]

Originally posted by ds650rider
Exactly, you never said much about what was done!! How can you make a case for yourself when you won't lay the facts on the table!!!
Come on what ARE the facts!!! You never said it was yours, you defend it like it is!
Well, like I said. What are your sugestions, I would love to hear them. We have addressed all the "sugestions" you have made.
You didn't say what other mods there were, you didn't list them so I assumed there were no more. If there are more, lets here what they are.
As for him knowing much about the 450R, you don't need to, from what you are posting, there are a lot more things to be done. The mods are common to just about evey 4 stroke bike. What is so special about the 450R?
Don't leave, it was just getting fun!

dude, settle down! go back and re-read the posts made by bad habit and myself. bad habits nephew ( allmixedup=me). my quad is the one that he is talking about. read my posts and put two and two together to get some of your answers. maybe hes defending my quad like its his because hes the one that has the quad in his garage and does most of the wrenching on it.

what answers are you looking for? please ask the questions so everyone can understand them, then maybe you will get the answers you are looking for. i just got done working my third 12 hour day in a row, and have to work my 4th in a row tomorrow. so bare with me, i will try to get your questions answered as truthfully and quick as possible. if your wanting my old dyno sheet from a year ago, that might take some time to find if i can find it at all.

how can you say all 4-stroke motors are the same? yeah they are genericly the same in a certain sence. but you cant tell me a uni-cam 4 vavle trx motor is going to react the same as a dohc 5 vavle yfz motor givin the same mods!

and yes im running the stock head pipe. are you ranting about it just because its the "stock" head pipe? or is it because you know what pipe is best for the trx and know all the pipe dementions from other after market pipes? i still dont understand how you are blaming no power increase just because of the stock head pipe. sure i could probably open up the flow a little more with an after market pipe, and gain maybe another hp. but just because im running the "stock" head, shouldnt be the reason for my quad making no power increase with my mods.

i wasnt that pi$$ed off at all with what was going on untill you started blaming my mods for the dyno not reading up to par. i dont care what you say about dyno-jet coming out and setting your dyno up right. do you think your dyno is the only one set up right, and thats the reason it reads lower than every other dyno-jet dyno? would it be far fetched to believe that maybe dyno-jet has set up most of the dyno's they sell? maybe its the fact that myself and bad habit have both seen dyno jet runs with almost the excact same mods as mine run upwards of 47hp on several occasions, with different dyno-jet dynos. just face the facts! your "good friends" dyno is not up to par!!! for christ sakes it didnt have to turn into a ******-o-thon, but im not going to sit here and listen to all this without saying something. what im trying to say is that 35bucks is a little high just to get a quad sniffed. if i pay 35 bucks for one pull, it better be fricken right. my suggestion would be let people re-jet and run again for like 5 bucks a run after the first 35 bucks. who in there right mind is going to pay 70 bucks for 2 pulls. a friend of mine asked donnie if he could re-jet and run again, and donnie said NO time is money! but yet the dyno sat empty for 2 hours straight on the busiest weekend i have seen down there, and the the dyno was a new attraction which should have brought more people to it. so what it comes down to is your paying 35 bucks each time you want your quad sniffed. ask yourself, is that realy worth it? not if you ask me.

alright im done and cooled down.:cool:

[allmixedup047]

Originally posted by honduh440
i recommend driving up to wichita kansas only 2 hours north of waynoka and using Nmotions dyno.

if your wanting an accurate reading i would suggest the same.;)

[ds650rider]

Man! You guys are friggin hopeless!!!

First -
Okay, what mods do you have? So far I have read:
Slip-on exhaust
13 to 1 piston, that is all I can find.

Granted, the LSPS dyno COULD be wrong, I don't debate that. All I ask was some paperwork to back up your claim. I not thrashing you or your bike.
All I am saying is there have been a couple of people come on here and claim that LSPS's dyno is way off, they have presented nothing to prove it.
If you guys would like to see the dyno "fixed" help prove it is "broken". The reason I say it is okay, is my numbers where RIGHT where I expected them to be on MY bike. Why wernt my numbers low of it is "broke"?

Second-
Again, what numbers were you expecting with the mods you have stated you have so far?
What are the manufacturers "claim" with be the increases?

Third-
This is not a ******-o-thon, as you put it. You "guys" are making some SERIOUS claims about the dyno and nothing to back it up!
They paid a LOT of money for the thing and it is not fair for you guys to jump on this forum and make the claim it is giving EVERBODY incorrect readings.
That is fine if you do, but just be able to back it up. If there IS something wrong, am confident they WILL address it. Give them a chance!

[aviator4]

Look, I didn't mean for this thread to turn into what it is. Funny.. if you go read the first couple of posts there's no mention of the dyno. LOL.

I think whats got us both set off is the fact that everyone is, thanks to these comments, still under the impression, as you are, that the readings your getting off the LSPS Dyno aren't accurate. If you wanna drop serious money on engine mods and (IMO)cheap out on the exhaust, thats you're business..

No matter how you slice it, no matter how you look at it, the dyno IS accurate. It is accurate for that bike, with those tires, in those conditions, with that rider.

But I caught something esle in your post. You said you only got ONE run for $35? You're supposed to get 2-3 to get an average of the runs. (one to clean the engine out, 2 to test).

I know on my quad that the first run was substantially lower than the third. Maybe this is what caused your readings to be low.. in a case like that it is the fault of the operator of the dyno.

Is this what happened perhaps? Can you tell me the date (or weekend) that it was run?

[Bad Habit]

Originally posted by Bad Habit
Back on the dyno question..............allmixedup311's quad with only the HRC kit hit a peak of 40.6hp on another dyno. Now with a 13:1 piston, ported head, and new exhaust it made 40.9hp at peak. Weather conditions will have an effect on the power, but these parameters are loaded into the software. The correction factors are there to take into account different variables to give as consistent readings as possible for comparison. I witnessed several quads run that I either had a hand in building, or I know what went into the builds. My best guess is that this particular dyno reads a good 5hp lower than many others I have seen.

Not a big deal though, obtaining a peak number from a dyno is mostly for bragging rights, and I'm not that concerned with the peak number. What I am concerned with is the curve, so I was disappointed to see the bottom axis of the graph using wheel speed as the measurement. This makes the runs somewhat useless to do any real accurate tuning.

BTW Aviator, if you talk to the guys down there, they said that they would email me the run files from my quad and a few others. I haven't received the email yet, so maybe you could give them a reminder for me. I have the dyno software so I am able to change the graphs to view the curve as it relates to rpm and not mph.
This was my very first post on the subject. If you do not know from the first paragraph what EVERYTHING is that has been done to the engine and how it will affect the power output, then I don't think that you need to be throwing around the "hopeless" comment. It will further my concern that neither of you have any knowledge of the 450R and really do not need to be giving out advise or refuting performance upgrades for it in an attempt to qualify your stance on this particular dyno.

[ds650rider]

Well, this is going nowhere. You guys have fun!

Peace yall..............................

[honduh440]

i really could careless about lsps............ but when that ds 650 ran and got the horrible numbers even the guy operatinig it said "yeah that is not the right numbers we will have to get someone out here to look at it"

come on what proof do you need to know its F*cked up when the people running it openly admit to it??????

[allmixedup047]

Originally posted by ds650rider
Well, this is going nowhere. You guys have fun!

Peace yall..............................

"its just getting fun"

now you leave! why?

http://www.trx450r.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=6034&hl=pipe++shootout
http://www.trx450r.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=5568&hl=pipe++shootout

if you want you can go ahead and read through those. all of those runs where done on a dyno-jet dyno. if you say the head pipe will hold back 4 or more hp, than you really need to learn a little more. do you honestly think if i had another pipe on there i would run up to par with every other dyno?

aviator, again i think your saying cheap out just because its the "stock" head pipe. just because the word stock is in there doesnt mean it has to be bad.

[allmixedup047]

i think what the guys down at lsps are doing with the place is great. i am very thankfull for what they have done with the camping and all that. im glad they have both shops because god knows everyone needs something sometime down there.

this was not intended as a bash on lsps. if we upset you in anyway im sorry. i know a little bash goes a long way on here but honestly this was not intended as a bash. but like i said, im not going to sit here and let you make false claims about the dyno. i have posted other results from other dyno jet dynos for you and the people to see. not as an "i told you so" from me, but you did ask for the proof. plus we are not the only too that see a problem with the readings. like honduh said, his friend was dissapointed in the results as well as a few more people i have heard from.