450R intake tube trick

[chad502ex]

after installation of this trick, you'll look into the 450r intake tube and really be amazed on the drag the stock HONDA resonator causes on the intake side of the carb. Drag on the intake decreases air velocity and increases pressure.

Ford mustangs installed the same type resonators to detune their setups too. Simply performing this type of mod on the mustang helped the mustang gain over 5hp (claimed).

I'm not saying this mod is 5hp (probally less than 1), but it's cheap to do and it'll surely help!


Hope this helps.

chad502ex.com

[twisted threads]

what is the resonator there for anyways??

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by twisted threads
what is the resonator there for anyways??

mainly to create drag.

[ZRider400]

If i made a custom block off out of aluminum it would do the same thing right?

[D-7#61-450r]

I put a freeze plug in place of it last year and it worked great.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by ZRider400
If i made a custom block off out of aluminum it would do the same thing right?

yes it would if the plug doesn't get sucked into the engine by accident. i thought about a plug too, but then realized that the rubber would be held tight into position by the installation of the resonator and the clamp. As long as it holds, it'll work great.

the illustration was meant to provide information about the negative response of the resonator has on air flow. How you block or plug the big gapping hole in the intake tube is completely up to you.

If you develop an idea that works good, please share.

hope this helps


chad

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by D-7#61-450r
I put a freeze plug in place of it last year and it worked great.

got pictures?

[911]

how does this interfear w/ the intake? i thought it was for extra air volume in the intake track for when u wack the throtle. like on a 2 stroke:confused:

[450 Racer R]

stock boost bottle:blah:

[jeepnrocks]

i actually thought it was for a little extra sound control ?

[culookn]

does it give you better throttle response, better low end power?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by culookn
does it give you better throttle response, better low end power?

yea, maybe this saturday while i'm on the dyno i'll remove the rubber plug on my 530r Resonator to see if there is any noticable change in torque or HP.

[chad502ex]

Boone, don't you have anything technical to add in this thread than bust my balls over at org? :rolleyes:
http://www.trx450r.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=6044&pid=62729&st=15&#entry62729

that's chicken **** to run you mouth about me over there knowing i can't post there and not add anything here

:D

[TrX450rKiD]

Wow .. we shouldn't make jokes I guess ..

Kinda like you saying stuff about Mixxer isn't it? No .. that is COMPLETELY different! :rolleyes:





-The Kid-

[450 Racer R]

stop fighting like little girls. PM each other and tell each other how stupid the other one is.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by TrX450rKiD
Wow .. we shouldn't make jokes I guess ..

Kinda like you saying stuff about Mixxer isn't it? No .. that is COMPLETELY different! :rolleyes:





-The Kid-

naa, you can joke all you want. joking never hurt anyone...

What do you mean Kid? who's mixxer? did mixxer design and sell something useful? i mean useful to plug the 450r intake resonator like this thread is all about,.... :D

[BOONE450R]

OK i will add something technical :D
The resonator is there to cancel out noises that the Engine produces at a given RPM. The resonator is tuned to a frequency that the engine produces, when this frequency is hit the resonator will produce a out of phase frequency that cancels the engines out. All though it is not necessary to have it will help in reducing engine harmonics.


As far as what you did.....unless you fill in the hole in the intake boot (make it smooth inside) you will not accomplish a thing.

Here is something to try (I'm being nice) take a round tire patch (hot patch if you can find them) and seal off the hole from the inside. You could also find a cap off of a container close to the size and insert it in the hole with the top of the cap to the inside. Then use a hose clamp to hold it in place. I think i would do both and super glue the patch to the lid, then maybe even seal the out side up with your rubber idea. That way your safe if the patch does not hold and you have to means of sealing it up.


Boone;)

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by BOONE450R
OK i will add something technical :D
The resonator is there to cancel out noises that the Engine produces at a given RPM. The resonator is tuned to a frequency that the engine produces, when this frequency is hit the resonator will produce a out of phase frequency that cancels the engines out. All though it is not necessary to have it will help in reducing engine harmonics.


As far as what you did.....unless you fill in the hole in the intake boot (make it smooth inside) you will not accomplish a thing.

Here is something to try (I'm being nice) take a round tire patch (hot patch if you can find them) and seal off the hole from the inside. You could also find a cap off of a container close to the size and insert it in the hole with the top of the cap to the inside. Then use a hose clamp to hold it in place. I think i would do both and super glue the patch to the lid, then maybe even seal the out side up with your rubber idea. That way your safe if the patch does not hold and you have to means of sealing it up.


Boone;)

WOW! that was absolutely impressive Boone. Thanks for that explanation. it was said almost perfectly (in my opinion).

looking at my intake on the inside this rubber piece installed over the resonator opening completely caps the intake tube opening almost flush with the inside surface. plus, there is a smaller chance that the "plug" would get sucked into the intake of the engine.

i dont agree on the notion that this resonators purpose is solely on reducing engine harmonics, i think your explanation was good. The harmonic amplitude that exits the intake isn't of constant amplitude; so, that electrically small static resonant cavity would only be able to effectively cancel one fundamental and its associated harmonics with small amplitude. Speaking of amplitude, in order to cancel a frequency a similar frequency 180 degrees out of phase would have to be same amplitude to the original frequency in order to cancel. the last time i checked that cavity had no wires or active circuitry connected; therefore, the component is passive and can only produce a signal when vibrated 6 db down from the original amplitude (or half the voltage amplitude in linear terms). If that resonator was mainly used as a resonant frequency cavity than it's resonant frequency is higher than the audible frequency range... How many audible (less than 10kHz or 10k rpm) resonant frequency speaker cavities do we see that small that can be used to effective reduce the engine harmonics from idle to 10k? try removing it and see if you hear a difference while you rev the engine.

this is HONDAs way at detuning the engine not to cancel sound waves. Even though HONDA calls it a resonator do you think they would call it a dragalator instead?

i want everyone to look into the intake the next time they remove it and see what effect this opening has on airflow. you'll see that this hole is a major drag on the intake velocity.

use Boones method of sealing that hole, or mine, or yours it doesn't matter but i bet you'll agree that this is a big concern to high horsepower engines that are starved from high air speed.

that was fun.

[TrX450rKiD]

did mixxer design and sell something useful?
Yes.


i mean useful to plug the 450r intake resonator like this thread is all about,....
I didn't know this thread was about chicken **** either. I guess I gotta read the title again ... :confused:





-The Kid-

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by TrX450rKiD
Yes.


I didn't know this thread was about chicken **** either. I guess I gotta read the title again ... :confused:





-The Kid-

Kid, get a grip fella. Boone is a good guy and very smart. it was my way for him to drum into some tech talk. he did and now we seem to be talking 450r talk. 450r talk is something we both relate to. do you have 450r talk, or are you posting trouble?

i mentioned chicken **** cause i read post over at org and i have no way to defend the negative comment that are made about me. for example, to me this post by mixxer was chicken **** cause he knows that i can't reply back,...

Originally posted by Mixxerisn't chucky the same guy who spent a LOT of time saying i was to be labeled a fool for not seeing how his omnipotent machine could run on less than a 230 main jet??

i seem to remember trying to educate him on pressure drop\ velocity and such to which his reply was "that's the stupidest thing i ever heard"

does that say 190 main on the bottom of the graph??

perhaps 70 hp is just around the corner with a simple swap of brass!!

and wasn't a claim of 65hp in his tag line??

he's almost up to the mark that nmotion claims to be easily attainable with their 520 kit.... .. that's closer than they got for sure


now i realize it is the same for him too cause he cannot post here, but i have no control over that do i?

[911]

so about this resonator lol:D :D

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 911
so about this resonator lol:D :D

LOL

this resonator stuff is fun

[BOONE450R]

Chad i did not say its sole purpose was to reduce Engine harmonics, I said it will help reduce. Its Main Purpose is sound control.

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_1969/article.html

Never the less if it was capped Properly yes it would aid better flow.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by BOONE450R
Chad i did not say its sole purpose was to reduce Engine harmonics, I said it will help reduce. Its Main Purpose is sound control.

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_1969/article.html

Never the less if it was capped Properly yes it would aid better flow.

very nice find Boone. your Google search is refined! heh.

i read that article and is in "tune" with what you and i are referring to. you speak of cancellation and i referred to the minimal reduction in amplitude (6 db or lower). i wasn't thinking the valve noise though, i was thinking combustion noise- interesting. i would have thought that combustion noise would be more of a nuisance than valve clatter. huh!

still, i bet that "noise box" "dampers" the air speed too!



thanks for your input.

[D-7#61-450r]

this doesn't show the inside, but the inside is flush.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v204/atvmafia61/Dsc00538.jpg

[joe1l]

Now this is very interesting, Has anyone tried this out ??? Has there been any noticeable gain? I'm definately game to try it out
Now that D-7#61-450r has posted that pic, i have better idea of what to do. I may give it a try when i get the chance.
D-7#61-450r , what is that you put in there to block it off?

[DirtDevilBT]

Heck, I'll see if I can't machine an aluminum piece to fit in there with an outside lip to keep it from sucking in. Hell, a solid wristpin cut to the right length could even work. Anything, try it.:D

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by joe1l
Now this is very interesting, Has anyone tried this out ??? Has there been any noticeable gain? I'm definately game to try it out
Now that D-7#61-450r has posted that pic, i have better idea of what to do. I may give it a try when i get the chance.
D-7#61-450r , what is that you put in there to block it off?

Joe, if i can get another $10 together by saturday i'll dyno the difference between cap and no cap on the resonator. $20 on the dyno will show the A/F change. I would think the A/F would change more than the hp/torque numbers, wouldn't you?

[TRX250R87]

The 85/86 ATC 250R and 86 TRX 250R's did not have these but the later years did. I never noticed any difference between them and most people just removed the resonator and capped it off for simplicity.
ERIC

[joe1l]

Originally posted by chad502ex
Joe, if i can get another $10 together by saturday i'll dyno the difference between cap and no cap on the resonator. $20 on the dyno will show the A/F change. I would think the A/F would change more than the hp/torque numbers, wouldn't you?
I'll be honest, i don't know if it will show up on the dyno, but it may make a difference while riding, maybe a little more throttle response. The AFR may or not be affected, being that actual amount of air goin in to the carb is still the same, the velocity is all that seems to be changing....i'm just guessing though....Chad i'm quite sure you can swing the extra $10:p If not i'll start the first Chad502ex dyno charity!!

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by joe1l
the extra $10:p If not i'll start the first Chad502ex dyno charity!!

LOL. yea, my wife is already freek'n with the $300 dyno charge this month to dial and degree in my 530.

i'm just jok'n on the charity thing tho!

[ZRider400]

That would be sweet if u could get it dynoed to see if there really is a difference.

[MIA450R]

Originally posted by D-7#61-450r
this doesn't show the inside, but the inside is flush.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v204/atvmafia61/Dsc00538.jpg


Dude, what did u take that cap off of? Did u have to modify anything or just jam it in there, and tighten the hose clamp around it?


Does the CRF450R have the same 'resonator' ?? We all know that engine isn't detuned (so much).

[D-7#61-450r]

It's a freeze plug for an engine. All cars have them. Not sure of size but its probally for a GM 350.
I can't tell you the difference the plug made by itself but a more direct undisterbed airflow is what you want to your carb. I made an exhuast tip, removed my airbox lid, and took my quad to CT3 to rejet. while there he told me to plug that hole,so I did. With these little mods I ran half of last season and I thought my quad picked up some bottom end grunt that it needed. Infact my first race after mods I took my first 1-1 at Tomahawk MX.

[MIA450R]

Thanks, man. Didnt know what a freeze plug was....now I do. (pops out if / when coolant freezes to keep block from cracking) I'll try to find one at NAPA or something, or just do the mod the way Chad described.

Glad to hear it may make a difference in seat of the pants power. Now lets see what Chad finds out for the hard #'s....


Again, anyone know if the CRF450R has the resonator?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by MIA450R
Thanks, man. Didnt know what a freeze plug was....now I do. (pops out if / when coolant freezes to keep block from cracking) I'll try to find one at NAPA or something, or just do the mod the way Chad described.

Glad to hear it may make a difference in seat of the pants power. Now lets see what Chad finds out for the hard #'s....


Again, anyone know if the CRF450R has the resonator?

the 02-04 crf air breather tube does not contain any resonator (aka dragalator).

[MIA450R]

Thanks Chad, thats what I figured. So more than likely, yeah, they added it to the 450R to detune it slightly.


Welp....my search for a "tap-in" style freeze plug turned up fruitless. All I can find are the expanding rubber freeze plugs. I suppose if I went to a Chevy dealer, they would have one.

The inner diameter of the opening is approx 1 and 3/8"

Anyone have any other suggestions for something easily found that has an outer diameter of 1 and 3/8" and will fit that hole, without the possibility of getting sucked in, and wont crush or leak air when the hose clamp cinched around it?

[kbass24emtp]

I got a freeze plug at car quest, but it did not work out. It would not sit flush in the tube, because the flange was not deep enough. I just cut a piece of rubber and placed it over the resonator and clamped it down. Now it is flush inside the tube.

[MIA450R]

Rite on, sounds like the easy way to go. ..figure that way, you always know where the resonator is, since its still attached.

Thanks kbass (and Chad).


Any closer to getting some dyno numbers, Chad?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by MIA450R
Rite on, sounds like the easy way to go. ..figure that way, you always know where the resonator is, since its still attached.

Thanks kbass (and Chad).


Any closer to getting some dyno numbers, Chad?

this saturday, but it depends on if i get fininshed with degree'ing in my cam and if i have any monies left over for the dragalator test. the dragalator test would cost me $40 to complete. That's $20 with dragalator installed and $20 with dragalator removed with A/F metering.

i have a paypal account is anyone is interested in contributing to help pay for the test; otherwise, i have no idea if it'll happen or not.
chad502ex@comcast.net

[MIA450R]

Let me just say, thanks for even offering to do a test. Some of you guys are so lucky to have a dyno nearby to do this kind of thing....the only dynos near me cost a small fortune to use for an hour, and most of them are not set up for ATVs.

Sigh, I am in the middle of a divorse, and currently unemployed-- hence why I am looking at all the "free" mods I can right now. If I had a few bucks to spare, I would def. contribute to your dragalator tests. You always provide such useful info.

Guess for now, I'll just do my own seat of the pants tests and report what I find, once I get the mod done.

[sredish]

Very interesting thread.

Being new to the 450r, I gasp at all the crap under the seat. I miss the simplicity of my two-stroke, but one ride on the 450r has me stuck like a crack fiend. :scary:

[911]

Originally posted by sredish
Very interesting thread.

Being new to the 450r, I gasp at all the crap under the seat. I miss the simplicity of my two-stroke, but one ride on the 450r has me stuck like a crack fiend. :scary: i'll 2nd THAT:D

can i get some sizes of the peices that you need and i can make some on a cnc, just let me know.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by bauer450r
can i get some sizes of the peices that you need and i can make some on a cnc, just let me know.

what would you machine, a plug?

[ZRider400]

Originally posted by bauer450r
can i get some sizes of the peices that you need and i can make some on a cnc, just let me know.

all u gotta do is take yours off and measure the hole.:)

[chad502ex]

do not bother with the plug.

dyno hp and torque down almost 1 point each with plug installed. up on both without plug.

chad502ex.com

[BOONE450R]

How did it affect the A/F readings?

[wiesman]

maybe it has a hair less power, but is it more responsive?

[chad502ex]

sorry to bring everyone up on this possible trick, but it wasn't better at all. now we know.

more bottom end torque and more power in whole range without plug, except from 9000 to limit where the plug provided more power. The entire curve is clearly better without plug except for this tiny range.

hope this helps.

i'll post numbers soon.

chad

[Killdmycobra]

Originally posted by chad502ex
sorry to bring everyone up on this possible trick, but it wasn't better at all. now we know.

more bottom end torque and more power in whole range without plug, except from 9000 to limit where the plug provided more power. The entire curve is clearly better without plug except for this tiny range.

hope this helps.

i'll post numbers soon.

chad

When you mean without the plug, do mean with the resonator in place???

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Killdmycobra
When you mean without the plug, do mean with the resonator in place???

yes, in my case i plugged the end of the resonator off with a round piece of rubber which capped off the opening perfectly and made flush contact with the inner surface of the intake tubing

[Killdmycobra]

Originally posted by chad502ex
yes, in my case i plugged the end of the resonator off with a round piece of rubber which capped off the opening perfectly and made flush contact with the inner surface of the intake tubing

let me rephrase this. When you are saying with and without the plug comparison, do you mean without the plug being with resonator in place??

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Killdmycobra
let me rephrase this. When you are saying with and without the plug comparison, do you mean without the plug being with resonator in place??

in both dyno runs the resonator was installed.

the difference between the two runs was that the resonator was "plugged" on one dyno pull and not the other. the plugged run pulled less torque and power throught the entire rpm range (except for >9k rpm).

this "plugged" resonator would look identical to the "freeze plug" install from the inside of the intake tube.

[Killdmycobra]

Originally posted by chad502ex
in both dyno runs the resonator was installed.

the difference between the two runs was that the resonator was "plugged" on one dyno pull and not the other. the plugged run pulled less torque and power throught the entire rpm range (except for >9k rpm).

this "plugged" resonator would look identical to the "freeze plug" install from the inside of the intake tube.

Ok thanks. Have any of you guys tried that velocity intake that they sell on ebay??? I just posted a thread about it?

[Hammer trx450r]

Hey thanks for the tip even if it didn't pan out;)

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Hammer trx450r
Hey thanks for the tip even if it didn't pan out;)

your welcome.

[sredish]

the differences before 5k rpm is crazy as well, just with that little change.

thanks for the update. :)

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by sredish
the differences before 5k rpm is crazy as well, just with that little change.

thanks for the update. :)

yup, guess HONDA knew their shiznit on this too! I was thinking that HONDA added to detune but all alone HONDA added from crf to improve... HEH!

[MIA450R]

Chad...again, thanks.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by MIA450R
Chad...again, thanks.

your welcome!:cool: