new 440 not running right

[QuadJunkies]

We tested out the new 440 kit this past wk end and it ran HORRIBLE... ITs tough to start, its blubbery and normally even as cold as it is when I had my 426 I ddint have to even choke it hardly unless it got REALLY cold... We changed the jetting cauise it was lean it was a 182 42(I think) pilot and went to a 185 45 pilot it ran better , we messed with the idle a bit but you literally have to keep pushing the throddle or it will shut off,once in awhile it will run on its own, but then the idle will be on the high side,but it shuts off more than its on.. The plug looked pretty good afte my race, its a little it rich but not bad, after I raced and pulled of fthe track the other night I think it flooded and I had to get toed back to pit area.I did notice when I race that in the corners it wasnt pulling very hard and wanted to poop out the pull was not there..

Can anyone tell me what the Vavles should be set at for a 440?? I have a 12:5 piston If the jetting is good, then would that mean the pilot should be good as well? Or can that have some effect on why it dies when off the gas?? I had someone else in stall my 426 so this is a little new to us... Thanks for any tips you can give me. I need to have it ready by Feb 12th race

Ive got a 450R carb ready to be installed also but I wasnt sure if we should tackle that until se know everything else is good...:ermm:
Also, anyone kow about the poweroll timing advance key???

[shamisc]

It sounds like it may be too rich to me. I run a 170 main and 42 pilot with my 440. I would go back to the 42 pilot and get your main jet right first. The 45 is prob too rich for idle. If it's flooding, that would also lead me to believe the pilot is too rich. I'm guessing the blubbering your talking about is like it's busting out at WOT?:confused: Could be as simple as trash in your main jet. I would make sure the carb's really clean, and then go from there. I hope this will help!:confused:

[QuadJunkies]

thanks for your reply..
no ,the jketting is very well within reasoning, my jetting was puuurrfect with a 182 in my 426 it was lean with this jetting in the 440(showing some white in coloring)
Im not sure it was flooding, Ive NEVER had my quad do that before but to me it smelled like fuel and wouldnt start, Im not sure if that was it though.... :confused: when we changed the pilot it did run better than when it had a smaller pilot,with smaller it wouldnt hold an idle at all. Carb was clean... ;) I ran a 170 in mine when it was stock..

[shamisc]

Are you sure the timing is correct? It's very easy to be off a tooth on the cam sprocket. Check your intake boot for any leaks. I had a leak in mine about a year ago that had me all the way up to a 225 main and it was still lean and busting out! Are you using an after market rev-box? If so ,try your stock one. And as far as the advanced timing key goes, I wouldn't even consider it!

[85atc350x]

Timing advance keys are not recommened for big bore 400ex engines. Did you try lowering the needle one clip? Are you running race fuel? With that kind of compression you shouldn't run pump gas.

[UglyMotha™]

Originally posted by 85atc350x
Timing advance keys are not recommened for big bore 400ex engines. Did you try lowering the needle one clip? Are you running race fuel? With that kind of compression you shouldn't run pump gas.




I know of more people than i can count on my hands that run advance keys on big bore, high compression setups without absolutly no problems at all.................... and i'm one of them :o

[K_Fulk]

I'm not sure what your elevation is. But it still sounds like your jetting is rich.

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by 85atc350x
Timing advance keys are not recommened for big bore 400ex engines. Did you try lowering the needle one clip? Are you running race fuel? With that kind of compression you shouldn't run pump gas. I saw that with sparks, but apparently there is one threw poweroll that is safe.... my Quad is NOT rich guys... jetting IS right... My Elev. is 2800 and like I stated before I ran a 182 before and it was perfect. I ran 50/50 race Gas (VP c-12) We did try lowering the needle as well...

so what is the big reason for not being able to rn an advance Key on a Big bore??? Like Ugly stated, Ive seen MANY riders who still use it and have has no issues... What will happen??

Also, should I remove choke??? I know Ill have to once he puts the 450R carb on but after talking with Troy this morning, he said it DID NOT flood. There was no fuel on the plug what so ever,it just acted like it was flooding, but it didnt flood

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by shamisc
Are you sure the timing is correct? It's very easy to be off a tooth on the cam sprocket. Check your intake boot for any leaks. I had a leak in mine about a year ago that had me all the way up to a 225 main and it was still lean and busting out! Are you using an after market rev-box? If so ,try your stock one. And as far as the advanced timing key goes, I wouldn't even consider it! no leaks..I am using a GT thunder Rev Box I literally used the CDI the night beofre on my 426ex and it worked fine, Ill try it out though...;) He is going to dbl. check the timing were just not sure what the specks should be for a 440??LThe Vavles were off a smidge I know after breaking it in, but he said there is a slight noise in there too that doesnt sound right....

[UglyMotha™]

Tina i think that may be your problem take the key out if your running GT thunders box, when i talked to laz about running a box he said that if i run the box with a key it will destroy the engine, his box advances the timing 6* and so does the key, thats a total of 12* which is way to much


as far all they hyp with running the key and a big bore, its not necessarilly a big bore but a high compression piston that your not supposed to run it with, both generate alot of heat and together both can generate enough heat to burn a hole right thru the piston but if your jetting is not lean and your running race fuel you'll be okay, i've been fine for two years, matter fact i just removed my piston last night and this is what it looked like, can't complain bout that specially with two seasons, also how do you know for certain that your timing is spot on

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by QuadJunkies
thanks for your reply..
no ,the jketting is very well within reasoning, my jetting was puuurrfect with a 182 in my 426 it was lean with this jetting in the 440(showing some white in coloring)
Im not sure it was flooding, Ive NEVER had my quad do that before but to me it smelled like fuel and wouldnt start, Im not sure if that was it though.... :confused: when we changed the pilot it did run better than when it had a smaller pilot,with smaller it wouldnt hold an idle at all. Carb was clean... ;) I ran a 170 in mine when it was stock..

:eek2: a 170 stock!!!! holy crap. I'm running a 160 main and 45 pilot on my wiseco 11:1, stage one hotcam, open air box and slip on. It is also about 10 degrees here. Also youll be fine with the timing advacne keys, they jsut dont recommend running them with big bores because they create more heat, its just something you should be aware of. Most people who run big bores do extra stuff for cooling anyhow so if you do that you should be ok.

[QuadJunkies]

I dont have a timing Key.. YET.. I was just curious about them is all...I just have the rev box :)

We dont know that its not the timing actually, it could be VERY much the case... And since it has a weird sound that could be the problem..

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
:eek2: a 170 stock!!!! holy crap. I'm running a 160 main and 45 pilot on my wiseco 11:1, stage one hotcam, open air box and slip on. It is also about 10 degrees here. Also youll be fine with the timing advacne keys, they jsut dont recommend running them with big bores because they create more heat, its just something you should be aware of. Most people who run big bores do extra stuff for cooling anyhow so if you do that you should be ok. Whats your Elev?? I have NEVER ran anything under a 165-170 when it was stock. When we went big bore My plug was totally white !!! :eek2: :p Mine seems to run better on the rich said anyhow.. Always has been that way ... :)

[UglyMotha™]

Originally posted by QuadJunkies
I dont have a timing Key.. YET.. I was just curious about them is all...I just have the rev box :)

We dont know that its not the timing actually, it could be VERY much the case... And since it has a weird sound that could be the problem..



oh........... gotcha, well then scratch the key off your list cause you can only have one or the other, can you describe the sound and where its coming from, also how are you guys determining whether or not your jetting is right

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by UglyMotha™
how are you guys determining whether or not your jetting is right

Bingo. This is my first question.

Are you only looking at the WOT jetting? You (or Troy) probably know how to do a proper plug chop and everything, right? Are you only checking WOT, or are you checking the entire throttle range?

When I check jetting, I do several plug chops before I change anything at all. I'll do a WOT chop, a 3/4 throttle chop, a 1/2 throttle chop, a 1/4 throttle chop, and an idle chop, with new spark plugs each time (I use the cheap ones for this).

It's entirely possible to be spot-on at WOT, but be really rich at idle.

[shamisc]

I'll do a WOT chop, a 3/4 throttle chop, a 1/2 throttle chop, a 1/4 throttle chop, and an idle chop, with new spark plugs each time (I use the cheap ones for this).

Well, I've always heard you should use an old plug to do readings.:confused:

[QuadJunkies]

Well, from what Troy told me today on the phone, he called Hetticks and the valves are right on.Hes going to try taking off the CDI and see how it runs with the stock one first, he said after inspecting the Carb that he thinks the carb needs replaced,which we planned on this wk anyways,they are going to put a scope on it to pin point where the noise is coming from, possibly the Cam chain..I should have more to go by in the next few days

[honduh440]

i just got my 440 rebuilt and before it was always an *** to start in the winter but after this rebuild i couldnt get it started for the life of me and i finally found that i would have to lower the idle a **** ton just to get it to fire then keep on the throttle till it got warmed up and then turn the iddle back so it would run on its own and it takes a good 5 minutes of playing with the throttle just to have it stay running

[QuadJunkies]

mne still wont idle even after a race.... :( Its been a little tougher since the cold set in than this summer, Im sure the CDI has something to do with it

[honduh440]

so your bike is not running bad ........... obviously since you can run a race on it. that is really mind boggling that it will not idle. how long does it stay running at an idle before it dies? im thinking your carb is trash hurry and get that new one on

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by honduh440
so your bike is not running bad ........... obviously since you can run a race on it. that is really mind boggling that it will not idle. how long does it stay running at an idle before it dies? im thinking your carb is trash hurry and get that new one on I only raced it one time we just barely gone threw all the heat cyles before it as raced. As far as the idle, it shuts down as soon as you remove your finger from the throddle in most instances,a few times it would like REALLY high w/o having to keep throdlding it ,but mostly will die.We have NEVER had any big issues jetting my quad its usually pretty easy to dial in

[IDYFZ]

Hey Tina you should just get a 450 :D J/K Sorry I have no advice for you. Hope you guys can get it running better. See ya later

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by IDYFZ
Hey Tina you should just get a 450 :D J/K Sorry I have no advice for you. Hope you guys can get it running better. See ya later Hey you!! :blah: I REALLY wish I could, me with the Yami and Troy with a new Honda .. would be cool :)

[fastbikes]

Hey, do you and Troy have everything to convert to the 450 carb?

[QuadJunkies]

Im not sure...
what all is needed??? Im guessing so...??Will I need a dif clutch cable?

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by shamisc
Well, I've always heard you should use an old plug to do readings.:confused:

Who told you that?

Old plugs will get a layer of oxides on them, which will make them difficult to read. And what if you change something? How can you determine your old conditions from your newly changed conditions? You might be able to see a mixture change (and hope what you see is accurate), but you can't tell ignition advance problems, or spark plug heat range issues with an old plug. You won't see any new issues unless they're worse than the old issues.

[fastbikes]

Originally posted by fastbikes
Hey, do you and Troy have everything to convert to the 450 carb?

I don't know?....I guess they will find out when they put it on.....I am sure you don't have to though...

[nakomis0]

I also use older slightly used plug when i just. It already has a nice color and it just seems to give readings faster.

You could put in a new plug and damn near ride for 20 minutes without a color change.

As far as the degree key on big bores, I think thats just a 'covering there arse' statement. I talk with someone from sparks about it and he pretty much said the same thing. It just advancing your timing which increases your compression. And most that risk can be washed out with high octane fuel.

And on my 440 I cant run a WB rev limiter and a degree key, the bike wont start due to the timing being advanced to much.

but thats all the lil info i can share, gl with the quad hopefully its just the carb and it gets fixed.

[QuadJunkies]

well, we know for sure now that some of the issues are due to the Carb. The slide is shot :( and the jet had a slight peice of brass on it so we changed the jet and it seemd to run better... Im sure glad we have new carb goin on it soon!!! Hopefully this will fix the problem.... :)

[honduh440]

Originally posted by honduh440
im thinking your carb is trash hurry and get that new one on



what do i win bob?

[QuadJunkies]

LOL... Im not going to get my hopes up until I get a chance to run it this wk end..... :o :p ;)

[dirtmomma]

Dang girl I hope you get it up & running GOOD!!! There is nothing worse than having to tune @ the track LOL, sounds like something we would do!!!

We are in the process now of doing a 426 in Ron's!! the cylinder & piston are @ the machine shop as we speak :D:D

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by dirtmomma
Dang girl I hope you get it up & running GOOD!!! There is nothing worse than having to tune @ the track LOL, sounds like something we would do!!!

We are in the process now of doing a 426 in Ron's!! the cylinder & piston are @ the machine shop as we speak :D:D

I thought Y'all had a 4??? Already??
You will be happy with your 426, I really enjoyed mine alot. Ive got a 426 for a back up JUST IN CASE.. Ive never ran a 12:5 piston before :eek2:

[dirtmomma]

Well we have a 440 big bore that Ron got last year but never put it in he wanted to get all he could out of the stock piston, actually if we threw new rings in it it would of been fine BUT of course he wants more power. I've been doing research on the 400 & since we didn't have a head pipe,carb,heavier springs,valves ect we didn't want to do it & jepordize the motor. Soooo we decided to go w/ the 426 while we save up for the extra parts to make it all good :) so thats where we set, we always have the big bore back up LOL ;)

[QuadJunkies]

DM~~ you have GOT to get a 450r carb!! OMG!! Its great!!!!:blah: Im so excited about it on mine I want to get one for the Preddy this spring :cool:

[honduh440]

how much are you paying for the 450r carb?

[QuadJunkies]

Im not sure.... :confused: a local Freind of ours is selling it to us so Im not sure what they are charging us ..... :)

[Flynbryan19]

You obviously have mounted it and are pleased? :) Did it solve your jetting woes?

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by Flynbryan19
You obviously have mounted it and are pleased? :) Did it solve your jetting woes? WEll. it definatley isnt fat now!!!lol :p It lean , my worn out Carb may have had something to do with why my jetting was higher,blubbery, stalling out too,who knows... I havent got to take it out and do much with it yet but .YES!!! It was a great addition I can tell right off the bat Im going to be VERY pleased with it ;)

[dirtmomma]

Yeah I told Ron we need to find a 450 carb I'm keeping my eyes open, but once you pay for it LMK in a PM if ya want ;) I know your getting a good deal just curious what the going price is!!

Good luck @ your next race is it this weekend??

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by dirtmomma
Yeah I told Ron we need to find a 450 carb I'm keeping my eyes open, but once you pay for it LMK in a PM if ya want ;) I know your getting a good deal just curious what the going price is!!

Good luck @ your next race is it this weekend??
We race again on the 12th :)

[EX_Junkie]

Just checking to see if u ladies have checked the price on the r carb new. From service honda u can get them for 165.64. I was actually trying to catch one cheaper than that but then i scored a yz400f motor for $800 so gonna play with that now. Just thought i'd let u know incase u didn't:D

[Plante400]

I have no idea what the problem is.. but i wanted to say that I have had great expirience with my 440. It runs great. idles. and sure has alot more balls then a stocker. But i did notice smoke when i started it up the other day. I think this is because i was being cheap at the gas station. You should run 93 with an 11:1 right? above that you have to go with race fuelright?

[Plante400]

well i guess after actually readon the whole thread it was the carb haha:rolleyes:

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by Plante400
I You should run 93 with an 11:1 right? above that you have to go with race fuelright? Yuppers... I ran an 11:1 Ross in my 426 and ran it and its fine with pump, but my 12:5 I will have to run Race fuel....
I cant wait to see how the carb runs after my 440 gets new bolts and gaskets, We got the jetting pretty close I think,but wont know until I get a chance to see how it runs...