460 Stroker final report [Archive]

MarkyNark

01-31-2005, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by UglyMotha™
you should have gone with a larger stroke and a smaller bore, you would found that it would have performed alot better than the setup you chose, would have performed alot better than your current setup

UglyMotha™,

I chose the 4mil stroker because I was already at a 440. You are right, the 4mil stroker was a bad upgrade. Im not conviced that stroking gains where I need it. In my book, the stock stroke is where its at, bore is better! and if you need more torque, 13:1 is about as beefy as you want to get.

NacsMXer

01-31-2005, 10:39 AM

I have a +7mm stroke with a 416 bore and it would kick my old 440's *** to tell you the truth, theres just no comparison. Thanks for your info though, I guess the +4mm is kinda wimpy for a stroker?:confused:

MarkyNark

01-31-2005, 11:17 AM

NacsMXer,

You're welcome. The 440 motor I built was something special for sure. Sometimes in the need for speed, we forget how good we had it. I kicked butt all day long on 450Rs, and many YFZ's. With the 460, I just could barely beat the other 440s. It was quite a let down. I'm a believer that stroke simply provides torque, not much else.

MarkyNark

01-31-2005, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by UglyMotha™
Really, you hear one negative oppinion and so you throw out the idea of a stroked 460, i know of stroked 460's that would anialate *sp any well built bored 440's

UglyMotha™

You sound like you have stroker on the brain man!

I have an open mind, please share how you make a 460 annilate any well built 440.

The ball is in your court....

UglyMotha™

01-31-2005, 01:46 PM

I think NacsMxer summed it up, i'm in the process of building the same engine, with a few different changes, will probably be headed out to gt thunder here within the next few weeks

without torque there would be no horsepower torque is what accelerates you not horsepower torque is what pulls your arms outta the socket as you acclerate not horsepower, horsepower only keeps things moving, so in my situation out on a track how often are you reaching top speeds for long periods of time, i would think on the track torque is goin to be more valuable and you said it yourself the stroker is all about torque

as far as it works, the 416 bore is goin to rev quicker than your 440 bore and with the 7mm stroke, it will without doubt lay down more torque so this quick reving torqy motor should have no problem pulling better torque numbers than just a 440 bore

R3Concepts

01-31-2005, 02:20 PM

Give that 460 some time. It takes longer then most motors to get a 460-465 to break in. I know a guy that has a 465 and it just barely started to come in and hes had about 10 tanks through it. Also check little things like timing, even one tooth off that thing will run like a dog.

Screamin440

01-31-2005, 04:05 PM

One thing that I've been wondering while reading this thread is did you regear it? When you went from the 440 to the 460 you were trying to gain torque while sacrificing some top end. Drop one tooth in the back to get the motor into it's useable power band for a longer period of time. Do that and I imagine it would run quite a bit better.

It's kind of like on a car. If you build a light weight car with a high revving motor, you run steeper gears in order to get it into the higher rpms that the motor was built for.

If you have a torquey motor in the same light weight car, you put more shallow gears in order to use the torque that the motor makes.

If anyone cares to argue this theory with me, I'm going off of the thoughts of former John Lingenfelter who died last year in a freak racing accident.

EPDP99

01-31-2005, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by R3Concepts426ex
Give that 460 some time. It takes longer then most motors to get a 460-465 to break in. I know a guy that has a 465 and it just barely started to come in and hes had about 10 tanks through it. Also check little things like timing, even one tooth off that thing will run like a dog.

Haha I have no idea who your talking about. LOL, i should have used regular oil a little while long since they didnt mention to me that it takes much longer for the stroker to break in. ya one tooth off makes a HUGE difference.

olimj

01-31-2005, 06:30 PM

Did you use something like Powroll's shortened tough rod, or a custom piston with pin-to-deck height reduced? The reason I ask is it makes for differences in stroke behavior. Long rods have longer dwell time during peak cylinder pressure so are less finicky about proper flow. They also have less side-load on the piston.

More info on the effect of rod length here (http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/rod-tech-c.htm).

cals400ex

01-31-2005, 07:00 PM

i was going to do the same but i put a definite stop to it after i talked to several people with strokers. the only ones that i have seen that were better than a large bore are the 500's. i was ready to send two motors off to laz at GT Thunder and after talking to him he honestly came out and said do not do it until you drive one. he said he would gladly let me drive his on any good day if i drove down to see him. he also said he would never turn down business but the stroker isn't want i need. he mentioned it was a torque monster but if i was interested in racing other quads like dragging or running through the gears, it wouldn't do what i wanted. i really appreciate his honestly and i would gladly buy products from him. i already have two of his rev boxes and a lightened flywheel.

i did talk to a few other individuals with the stroker. one was running a 87mm bore with a powroll stroker and the other was running a 87mm bore with a 6mm stroker. they both said the low end power was amazing and they are great for going through trails and going through handgrips. one of these individuals previously had a 426 with stock crank and he said it didn't have the low end but was actually quicker when going through the gears.
both of these individuals agreed they strokers were awesome for the trails. they said when they got in the open areas the bikes with stock cranks could actually beat them by a little bit.

i would like to mention that yes, a stroker could very very easily beat a 440. a regular 440 is nothing. however, with equal amounts of cash into both bikes, i don't see how the bike with a stroker would win in a drag. with what i have seen, you could use the money you didn't use on the stroker crank and be quicker. if your a woods racer and don't care about upper gear performance, the stroker might be the ticket.

thanks for posting the results!

NacsMXer

01-31-2005, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by UglyMotha™
I think NacsMxer summed it up, i'm in the process of building the same engine, with a few different changes, will probably be headed out to gt thunder here within the next few weeks

without torque there would be no horsepower torque is what accelerates you not horsepower torque is what pulls your arms outta the socket as you acclerate not horsepower, horsepower only keeps things moving, so in my situation out on a track how often are you reaching top speeds for long periods of time, i would think on the track torque is goin to be more valuable and you said it yourself the stroker is all about torque

as far as it works, the 416 bore is goin to rev quicker than your 440 bore and with the 7mm stroke, it will without doubt lay down more torque so this quick reving torqy motor should have no problem pulling better torque numbers than just a 440 bore

Yup... Lazarus definitely knew what he was doing when he designed this 452 kit for the EX. Some people think an over-square motor like this causes an undesireable situation in terms of power delivery, but it really is the best of both worlds. Good choice UglyMotha™, you won't be disappointed. :D

NacsMXer

01-31-2005, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by cals400ex
i was going to do the same but i put a definite stop to it after i talked to several people with strokers. the only ones that i have seen that were better than a large bore are the 500's. i was ready to send two motors off to laz at GT Thunder and after talking to him he honestly came out and said do not do it until you drive one. he said he would gladly let me drive his on any good day if i drove down to see him. he also said he would never turn down business but the stroker isn't want i need. he mentioned it was a torque monster but if i was interested in racing other quads like dragging or running through the gears, it wouldn't do what i wanted. i really appreciate his honestly and i would gladly buy products from him. i already have two of his rev boxes and a lightened flywheel.

i did talk to a few other individuals with the stroker. one was running a 87mm bore with a powroll stroker and the other was running a 87mm bore with a 6mm stroker. they both said the low end power was amazing and they are great for going through trails and going through handgrips. one of these individuals previously had a 426 with stock crank and he said it didn't have the low end but was actually quicker when going through the gears.
both of these individuals agreed they strokers were awesome for the trails. they said when they got in the open areas the bikes with stock cranks could actually beat them by a little bit.

i would like to mention that yes, a stroker could very very easily beat a 440. a regular 440 is nothing. however, with equal amounts of cash into both bikes, i don't see how the bike with a stroker would win in a drag. with what i have seen, you could use the money you didn't use on the stroker crank and be quicker. if your a woods racer and don't care about upper gear performance, the stroker might be the ticket.

thanks for posting the results!

And Cals, thanks for sharing that. Laz is a really honest guy who wants to satisfy his customers in the best way, he's not all in it for the cash. And he is right, his 452 kit was not made to be dragged. I think it works awesome for MX since you need the low end power to come out of corners, set up for jumps, and to give the new 450's a big surprise :devil: But for every riding application, there is a proper motor setup that goes with it. And Laz was a good guy to point you in that right direction.

Chef

01-31-2005, 09:04 PM

Go with a 91 or 92mm piston...mine rips...well it used to before that big shaft in the tranny broke in half. :(

MarkyNark

01-31-2005, 09:13 PM

Screamin440:

Regear? I already have dropped a tooth in the front. The gearing is correct.

olimj:

Did you use something like Powroll's shortened tough rod? Yes
Did you use a custom piston with pin-to-deck height reduced? Yes

R3Concepts426ex:

Give that 460 some time. 3 tanks should be good enough.
Also check little things like timing. Timing is right on.

It's always been a concern of mine that the stroker would be too torquey, and not enough rev speed. However, I figured with the lightened flywheel, ultralight 12:1 piston, and web 463/9i cam that I would overcome that. I didn't. That's ok, I live to build, and thought I would share a little information with you all.

Dont get me wrong, the 460 is a torque monster, but the problem is that I dont need unuseable torque. The old 13:1 I had was good in that area, with plenty of rev speed too. I simply wanted more - but not today!

Cheers!

Chef

01-31-2005, 09:29 PM

I will try to find you some info on the megacycle cam I am running right now in mine...best cam I have had, I like it even more than the 463/9i I had. If you feel like changing out the cam let me know and I will try to get some more info for you.

Sounds like the stroker had good bottom end, but not the revs...I like revs alot more in the sand. The only time I am in the lower RPMs is crusin through the camp grounds!

EPDP99

01-31-2005, 09:42 PM

im runing the 450/451 grind cam. What do you think about this cam. its the "all around" cam and i think the 463 is top end Correct? mine seems to rev good, but im sure a high rev cam would help in the sand.

pnut420

01-31-2005, 09:52 PM

:eek: . So you tried different cams to get different gains, etc.... if it doesnt rev have you heard of a lightened flywheel. Also you have a aftermarket carb, 39 or 41, might make some difference there. What exhaust you running, did you rejet it right, etc... There are som many factors involved.

Its cool to give reviews, but INFO is good, exhaust, cam, etc... to discourage others from getting a stroker is not cool. You poke your opinion around and then ok now the balls in your court to defend lol.

Chef

01-31-2005, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by MarkyNark
Screamin440:

Regear? I already have dropped a tooth in the front. The gearing is correct.

olimj:

Did you use something like Powroll's shortened tough rod? Yes
Did you use a custom piston with pin-to-deck height reduced? Yes

R3Concepts426ex:

Give that 460 some time. 3 tanks should be good enough.
Also check little things like timing. Timing is right on.

It's always been a concern of mine that the stroker would be too torquey, and not enough rev speed. However, I figured with the lightened flywheel, ultralight 12:1 piston, and web 463/9i cam that I would overcome that. I didn't. That's ok, I live to build, and thought I would share a little information with you all.

Did you read this post pnut?

pnut420

01-31-2005, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by Chef
Did you read this post pnut?

oops. :cool:

MarkyNark

01-31-2005, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by EPDP99
im runing the 450/451 grind cam. What do you think about this cam. its the "all around" cam and i think the 463 is top end Correct? mine seems to rev good, but im sure a high rev cam would help in the sand.

Thats the first level cam. I have not used that one. The one I had in the 440 13:1 was the 479 grind. That was a good cam, but the 463/9i is supposed to be total rev. I'll keep that one in there for the 13:1 440 after I verify there are no clearance issues.

MarkyNark

01-31-2005, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Chef
Did you read this post pnut?

werd!

K_Fulk

01-31-2005, 10:08 PM

I think the cam is your problem, Its kinda like putting a hill shooter pipe on a head ported for low end. The cam wants to make power up top and stay up. Where your stroker wants to do the opposite.

The 450/451 grind cam would probly work best with your setup.

MarkyNark

01-31-2005, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Chef
I will try to find you some info on the megacycle cam I am running right now in mine...best cam I have had, I like it even more than the 463/9i I had. If you feel like changing out the cam let me know and I will try to get some more info for you.

Sounds like the stroker had good bottom end, but not the revs...I like revs alot more in the sand. The only time I am in the lower RPMs is crusin through the camp grounds!

That would be cool. I have access to the megacyle cam, thanks for the info. Any help in providing more power for the 440 is welcome.

Marky

pnut420

01-31-2005, 10:12 PM

Chef havent you had both 440's and 465's this is the first person Ive heard of say it actaully slowed them down. He says he still would beat 440's with it but it wasnt what he thought it would be. Also doesnt seem like head porting got changed up,etc... didnt say how much he weighs.... I weigh 125 so for someone 250 pounds or so things change... People on here just see one post and go wow thats what Im going with.

Changing paddles has a huge difference, which it seems like he was in the right direction, but how do I know for sure?

pnut420

01-31-2005, 10:17 PM

Also what exhaust did you run and was it a 39 or 41mm carb?

MarkyNark

01-31-2005, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by K_Fulk
I think the cam is your problem, Its kinda like putting a hill shooter pipe on a head ported for low end. The cam wants to make power up top and stay up. Where your stroker wants to do the opposite.

The 450/451 grind cam would probly work best with your setup.

I think you hit it on the head! I agree totally (hindsight is always 20/20!)

For my type of dune riding, which requires some torque, but a lot of top end too, I think that the stroker is probably not the ticket with the mods that are available now.

Like I said before, the entire motor is built for flow; Ported head, Larger Valves, lightened flywheel, and dual exhaust, including Edelbrock 38MM carb and aftermarket CDI. All those mods were already in place with the 13:1 440 and it rocked. I think I will stay focused on keeping the stock stroke and use the piston compression to regulate the torque.

This thread is not a diss on stokers - I can tell some of the stoker heads are pretty much bent out of shape over this. Thats cool - Open minds are probably a better way to go though - JMHO.

Chef

01-31-2005, 10:20 PM

Yes, I have had 3 major setups: 440 (Actually 432) 450, and the 465. With the head that is on mine, and the weight of the piston, compression ratio, cam profile that I currently have, etc, this thing RUNS. Flat out goes, no BS about it. I got beat by one YFZ up comp hill, and it was also beating everything else. White, Ultralights, and a +6 swingarm. Smelled like alcohol to boot. I think that was a pretty new motor, too. When I finally had mine at the dunes, it had a FULL season of TT/Oval racing on the piston, rings, and valve seals, and about 3/4 of a season on the cam and springs. The cam wasnt showing any wear when we took it apart a month ago. Dont know about the springs, but it needed rings as it would smoke horrible on startup if you brought it above idle at all until it was good and hot. It needed bearings, it needed rings, it might have even needed a piston, and it was still fast as all hell.

I consistently outran lighter riders on highly modified Z400's, Predators, 450R's, and YFZ's every weekend at the TT Track. It was a closer race in the sand, but I was only beaten by that one YFZ on the hill. I think I probably could have gotten him or atleast made it a tie on the flats.

Chef

01-31-2005, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by MarkyNark
I think you hit it on the head! I agree totally (hindsight is always 20/20!)

For my type of dune riding, which requires some torque, but a lot of top end too, I think that the stroker is probably not the ticket with the mods that are available now.

Like I said before, the entire motor is built for flow; Ported head, Larger Valves, lightened flywheel, and dual exhaust, including Edelbrock 38MM carb and aftermarket CDI.

If you ever get access to an FCR41...try it out for a couple weekends. You might be surprised. Also, what fuel are you running?

MarkyNark

01-31-2005, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by pnut420
Chef havent you had both 440's and 465's this is the first person Ive heard of say it actaully slowed them down. He says he still would beat 440's with it but it wasnt what he thought it would be. Also doesnt seem like head porting got changed up,etc... didnt say how much he weighs.... I weigh 125 so for someone 250 pounds or so things change... People on here just see one post and go wow thats what Im going with.

Changing paddles has a huge difference, which it seems like he was in the right direction, but how do I know for sure?

Im 250 lbs and torque is definately a factor for me. Paddles? Im running Skat Trak ultralight 9 paddles.

MarkyNark

01-31-2005, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by Chef
If you ever get access to an FCR41...try it out for a couple weekends. You might be surprised. Also, what fuel are you running?

Im running U4 fuel.

K_Fulk

01-31-2005, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by Chef
If you ever get access to an FCR41...try it out for a couple weekends. You might be surprised. Also, what fuel are you running?

I just put one on mine havent rode it a whole lot but it sounds real mean. Big diffrence just with the sound cant wait to get her opened up.

Chef

01-31-2005, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by MarkyNark
Im running U4 fuel.

Heh...big motors drink alike then. Try out the 41. Also, where do you get your ultralights from? 22x11x8?

pnut420

01-31-2005, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by Chef
Yes, I have had 3 major setups: 440 (Actually 432) 450, and the 465. With the head that is on mine, and the weight of the piston, compression ratio, cam profile that I currently have, etc, this thing RUNS. Flat out goes, no BS about it. I got beat by one YFZ up comp hill, and it was also beating everything else. White, Ultralights, and a +6 swingarm. Smelled like alcohol to boot. I think that was a pretty new motor, too. When I finally had mine at the dunes, it had a FULL season of TT/Oval racing on the piston, rings, and valve seals, and about 3/4 of a season on the cam and springs. The cam wasnt showing any wear when we took it apart a month ago. Dont know about the springs, but it needed rings as it would smoke horrible on startup if you brought it above idle at all until it was good and hot. It needed bearings, it needed rings, it might have even needed a piston, and it was still fast as all hell.

I consistently outran lighter riders on highly modified Z400's, Predators, 450R's, and YFZ's every weekend at the TT Track. It was a closer race in the sand, but I was only beaten by that one YFZ on the hill. I think I probably could have gotten him or atleast made it a tie on the flats.

See now thats good info also. Stroker I have seem at comp Hill at Pismo (465 mainly) just flat ripped, they were built well and pretty much were the fastest around, maybe this guy has a good 440 combo going, but there are still good 465 combos that will hang or take that 440.... no replacement for displacement lol.

pnut420

01-31-2005, 10:28 PM

Oh BTW Im putting together a 440 so dont think I stroke strokers lol

Chef

01-31-2005, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by pnut420
See now thats good info also. Stroker I have seem at comp Hill at Pismo (465 mainly) just flat ripped, they were built well and pretty much were the fastest around, maybe this guy has a good 440 combo going, but there are still good 465 combos that will hang or take that 440.... no replacement for displacement lol.

Yea..sometimes you just hit on something that works really well for no apparent reason. No offense to you mark, but I have no doubt that my 465 could match your 440 or even be a little faster. I really wish I had a set of ultralights so I could tell how fast it really could be. Ive been running 20x10x10 9 paddle extremes on .160.

MarkyNark

01-31-2005, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by Chef

I consistently outran lighter riders on highly modified Z400's, Predators, 450R's, and YFZ's every weekend at the TT Track. It was a closer race in the sand, but I was only beaten by that one YFZ on the hill. I think I probably could have gotten him or atleast made it a tie on the flats.

I've been there too. Z400's, 450Rs and Predators (all stock) were never a problem with the old 440 set up. About 1/2 of the YFZ I could beat, but I attribute those losses to me being about 100lbs over the guys I lost too. I'd just stick one of my friends on there that weighed about 160 and they took them every time.

Another interesting fact was that after the built and 3 tanks, I'd go to the steepest hill shoot in Florence I could find and try it out compared to the old 440. With it, I could easily go up in 2nd gear with a +2" swingarm and would have to let off to keep her from going over backwards. The 460 couldnt even make it up in 2nd - 1st gear ... that was it! Not good!

Marky

pnut420

01-31-2005, 10:33 PM

Some people are strating to go with 6 paddle tires and getting quick times on the YFZ so I might give them a try, the EX is a little heavier and a different quad so they migth not work as good, but when racing in the sand is crazy what just changing tires does, wet sand, dry, dry and chopped up....

The 440 Im building is for my brother, I have a YFZ now so thats why I mgith try the 6 paddles, sometimes I type like people know what I have or something :rolleyes:

MarkyNark

01-31-2005, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by Chef
Yea..sometimes you just hit on something that works really well for no apparent reason. No offense to you mark, but I have no doubt that my 465 could match your 440 or even be a little faster. I really wish I had a set of ultralights so I could tell how fast it really could be. Ive been running 20x10x10 9 paddle extremes on .160.

No offense taken at all. You've been very objective about the whole thing. Maybe when you get down to Florence, we can give it a shot up comp hill sometime! Its all good - win or lose !;)

K_Fulk

01-31-2005, 10:34 PM

Before you do anything try a 450/451 cam or even a 479 if you have acces to them. I bet it would make a huge diffrence. The 463/9i I would only use on a TT quad.

Chef

01-31-2005, 10:36 PM

Yea...when are you planning on going again? There was some talk about the weekend after the 9th of Feb. Chances of that are slim, and even if I did I wouldnt have the 400...its massively blown up. (The tranny took the whole motor out). I will have it together before July 4th for sure...we should meet up down there after I get the 400 together. No matter who wins, it would be fun to ride around with 2 smokin strokin' EX's just to play with the YFZ's eh? :cool:

pnut420

01-31-2005, 10:37 PM

Another interesting fact was that after the built and 3 tanks, I'd go to the steepest hill shoot in Florence I could find and try it out compared to the old 440. With it, I could easily go up in 2nd gear with a +2" swingarm and would have to let off to keep her from going over backwards. The 460 couldnt even make it up in 2nd - 1st gear ... that was it! Not good!

Marky [/B][/QUOTE]

Wow thats a bad combo my buddies 416 will make it up that... :confused:

MarkyNark

01-31-2005, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Chef
No matter who wins, it would be fun to ride around with 2 smokin strokin' EX's just to play with the YFZ's eh? :cool:

Exactly!

I got the ultralights from DTR racing in Salem. Talk to Matt there - he's the owner. They are 22's, but they are on shorter rim - 8" I think.

Chef

01-31-2005, 10:42 PM

Mark, if you have ever been to the little treeshot down by the river by driftwood, thats a good HP tester. You back down it and it has 3 possible ways to get out. I can just barely crack 3rd by the time I get out with stock gears.

Chef

01-31-2005, 10:44 PM

On second thought on that climb, you might want to swap out the ultralights for the ride back there...lots of roots and such that have put holes in regular haulers...much less UL's.

MarkyNark

01-31-2005, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by Chef
On second thought on that climb, you might want to swap out the ultralights for the ride back there...lots of roots and such that have put holes in regular haulers...much less UL's.

I've seen that hill (or something like it anyways). Ya, the thin tires are an issue, so I have to be carefull with those. They loose all thier air in about 12 hours! They are so thin the air just leaks through the rubber!

You know you got it right about the YFZ's. You can really piss off some of those guys that spent 7300 dollars on thier quad and beat them with what looks like a stock EX! Of course, a lot of my buddies have DS650s with thousands of dollars in them - Aint nothin better than to see thier expressions of dismay! Even funner to let them ride it and feel how nimble the EX is compared to what they have. Dont get me wrong, I love the DS as a dune crewzer and a flat dragger, but they suck up the dune drags, hill shoots and sand trails.

Chef

01-31-2005, 10:59 PM

I just like the look on the faces of the guys with the piped and cam modded YFZ's when I am atleast equal, if not ahead, of them or their much lighter friend or kid. Mine however isn't very stock looking, so it doesnt get the same effect as yours.

Dont you have a website? Markynark.com or something?

MarkyNark

01-31-2005, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by Chef
I just like the look on the faces of the guys with the piped and cam modded YFZ's when I am atleast equal, if not ahead, of them or their much lighter friend or kid. Mine however isn't very stock looking, so it doesnt get the same effect as yours.

Dont you have a website? Markynark.com or something?

Yes I used to have that website. That was a fun website for sure. Now Im doing the On Dunes thing. Once in a while people bring that up, I think it was just as fun for a lot of riders as it was for me. But Marky's Extreme Garage started taking too much time to keep up on all the pics & vids. I was posting more than 20 new pics a day at the end, and it was taking about 4 hours a day to keep it up - I had over a million hits after a year - way WAY too much free time was spent on that.

It was cruch time that last year ... Two websites, managing a local rock band, and working as a project manager installing DSL systems for two major telephone companies - plus going out on the dunes every weekend - talk about burning the candles at both ends!

As far as going to the dunes, just let me know - I go nearly every weekend with either the DS or the EX.

pnut420

01-31-2005, 11:12 PM

Its definetly nice to have much less in your quad and take out the YFZ and R's, I hope my brothers 440ex doesnt take out my piped YFZ. Im going to do cam and stuff latet to make sure it doesnt happen. But as far as MX I couldnt be happier with the YFZ and thats what I do most, Pismo or dunes is more fun than competition to me, to many rich people with banshees here lol.

shamisc

01-31-2005, 11:20 PM

Hey Marky, I have a FST 440 w/ 11:1 now and was wanting to stroke it 4mm, but after reading all this, I don't think it really fits my trail riding/ drag racing needs. My only concern was with the 13:1 JE 440, would HD head studs hold up fine? I heard there would still be an issue with blowing head gaskets b/c of too much compression. Also, I'm definately going with a HD rod, but not sure which one yet. What are your thoughts on rods? Carillo, Sparks, Powroll??:confused:

olimj

01-31-2005, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by MarkyNark

Did you use something like Powroll's shortened tough rod? Yes
Did you use a custom piston with pin-to-deck height reduced? Yes

I was expecting one or the other, not both. At least with Powroll, you either make up the 4mm stroke with a shorter rod, or you stick with stock length and get a custom piston with wristpin closer to the top.

Thanks for sharing the info. I just pulled my stock motor last night and still haven't decided what to do. I ride the OR dunes too and want a tree shooter that pulls 2nd up a cliff, but have to stick to pump gas. Seems like "no substitute for CCs" is the best way to make up for it.

More good stroker info here (http://e30m3performance.com/tech_articles/engine-tech/rod-ratio/).

MarkyNark

02-01-2005, 07:12 AM

Originally posted by olimj
I was expecting one or the other, not both. At least with Powroll, you either make up the 4mm stroke with a shorter rod, or you stick with stock length and get a custom piston with wristpin closer to the top.

More good stroker info here (http://e30m3performance.com/tech_articles/engine-tech/rod-ratio/).

Correction - I used a JE superlight 12:1 piston with the Powroll 4mm stroker and thier rod. Sorry for the confusion. There was no custom piston as far as the wristpin location is concerned.

MarkyNark

02-01-2005, 07:16 AM

Originally posted by shamisc
Hey Marky, I have a FST 440 w/ 11:1 now and was wanting to stroke it 4mm, but after reading all this, I don't think it really fits my trail riding/ drag racing needs. My only concern was with the 13:1 JE 440, would HD head studs hold up fine? I heard there would still be an issue with blowing head gaskets b/c of too much compression. Also, I'm definately going with a HD rod, but not sure which one yet. What are your thoughts on rods? Carillo, Sparks, Powroll??:confused:

shamisc,

This is an area that always stirs up a lot of debate. My thoughts are that a Carillo Rod is probably a safe thing to put in. I ran the stock rod for two years on the old 440. I know that makes some people cringe, but it worked for me. But I am going to install a Carillo rod with the new stock stroke crank. As far as head studs - I run the stock ones - I've never had a problem, and dont plan on having a problem. Again, it makes some people upset that I run the stock studs - but I have had no problems with them. If I can run them with the 13:1, I would think that everything else would be ok. JMHO.

UglyMotha™

02-01-2005, 07:30 AM

its good to come back and see everyone playing nice :)

oste

02-01-2005, 10:10 PM

You're carb is too small for a stroker, the cam is questionable, and you didn't mention the exhaust.

For a 460 with high compression, I wouldn't go less than a 41mm FCR, I'd deffinetly go with a top end cam (the web cam), and an open exhaust. Oh and no airbox lid with a K&N. Now that is how you get flow to this motor setup!

That 38mm e-brock is good for low end to mid range (good velocity but not high flow). You have a parts miss match, or you are confused at what you want!

I think that the stroker is probably not the ticket with the mods that are available now.

Like I said before, the entire motor is built for flow; Ported head, Larger Valves, lightened flywheel, and dual exhaust, including Edelbrock 38MM carb and aftermarket CDI. All those mods were already in place with the 13:1 440 and it rocked. I think I will stay focused on keeping the stock stroke and use the piston compression to regulate the torque.

Chef

02-01-2005, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by oste
You're carb is too small for a stroker, the cam is questionable, and you didn't mention the exhaust.

For a 460 with high compression, I wouldn't go less than a 41mm FCR, I'd deffinetly go with a top end cam (the web cam), and an open exhaust. Oh and no airbox lid with a K&N. Now that is how you get flow to this motor setup!

That 38mm e-brock is good for low end to mid range (good velocity but not high flow). You have a parts miss match, or you are confused at what you want!

I think that the stroker is probably not the ticket with the mods that are available now.

Did you really read the whole thread or am I missing something? We determined a couple of times that the stroker is a bottom to mid motor, and he is running the Web 963 cam. Which is a rev cam. Wrong cam for the type of power. We figured that out. A rev cam is NOT what you want on a stroker. End of story.

MarkyNark

02-01-2005, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by oste
You're carb is too small for a stroker, the cam is questionable, and you didn't mention the exhaust.

Oste,

Bigger carb? Well I would have spent the money to go with a bigger carb if there were signs that the rev quickness was at least as good as the 440. So, sure it would have helped, but Im not convinced that it would have helped that much.

As far as the cams, you say my choice was questionable. But the cams that I put in it with the 460 are the top end web 463/9i cam - as you are suggesting.

Also, I did mention the exhaust, Dual - very high flow. And yes, open air box with (yawn) a K&N filter.

Sorry, but Im not confused at all, dune riding is a delicate mix between torque and rev quickness - unlike most other races. I think the 460 that I built was faster than most 440's, but a slug compared to the 440 I built.

The more I study the stroker, the more I am understanding that for the dune application, its simply doesn't match our needs. I think its all about bore and piston compression.

dork

02-01-2005, 11:51 PM

strokers lower your torque peak rpm and with that shorter powroll rod also increase friction through piston side loading. look at why the new 4 strokes (yfz, trx) run so well. oversquare design, light parts, good head designs, high compression.

i believe you said you went down on the front sprocket a tooth, with the stroker, like others said, gear higher. what headpipe are you using?

MarkyNark

02-02-2005, 10:47 AM

Guys thanks for the feedback - Im sort of tired of repeating myself over and over.

Later ....

MarkyNark

02-02-2005, 01:32 PM

Chef,

Ok, heres the deal - I have pretty much decided to rebuild the 440 with the superlight 12:1, the 463/9i cam combo. My question to you is do you think that is a better combo for sand duning than a 13:1 (non-superlight) and the 463/9i cam?

The only other choice would be to go completely back to the 13:1 with the 479 Grind cam. That means I have to repurchase a new cam and a new piston and I dont really want to do that unless I have to.

Thanks for your input.

Later ...

shamisc

02-02-2005, 03:29 PM

Marky, where can a get this ultra-light 440 12:1 JE ?

MarkyNark

02-02-2005, 04:28 PM

JE has them.

Chef

02-02-2005, 08:33 PM

I think that you should keep the rev cam and just do the superlight 12:1. Quick revs and lots of power up top...what else do you really want in the sand? Thats what I like anyway.

MarkyNark

02-02-2005, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by Chef
I think that you should keep the rev cam and just do the superlight 12:1. Quick revs and lots of power up top...what else do you really want in the sand? Thats what I like anyway.

Ok, this will be interesting. The motor will be 100% rev. Hope to **** this works!

Chef

02-02-2005, 09:09 PM

Mine is basically all rev....but its a bigger piston and higher compression than 12:1. If that one ever goes to $hit go to a 91mm or 92mm piston and 13.5:1 with the top end cam...and lighten the piston a ton.

MarkyNark

02-02-2005, 09:12 PM

Just bore the existing 89mm sleave? and drop in a 92?

Chef

02-02-2005, 09:25 PM

No no no...I dont think it'll go that far. I can't remember who makes the sleeve but its the same sleeve Sparks uses for their 465. Probably just LA Sleeve or the like.

pnut420

02-02-2005, 09:37 PM

Sorry, but Im not confused at all, dune riding is a delicate mix between torque and rev quickness - unlike most other races. I think the 460 that I built was faster than most 440's, but a slug compared to the 440 I built.

The more I study the stroker, the more I am understanding that for the dune application, its simply doesn't match our needs. I think its all about bore and piston compression. [/B][/QUOTE]

I understand you like your 440 and the stroker setup you had did not meet your dune application. I know your getting tired of saying your case, but Im tired of hearing that the stroker is not for OUR dune needs. You say you want 100% Rev but then need your fine balance of torque. Ive seen it over and over, stroker has torque gets out the hole and pulls all the way, maybe you didnt go with a 41mm fcr or TC or sparks exhaust, yeah 2 pipes is more flow, but not a better exhaust. If you talk to TC they will point you in a different direction then powroll or say FDO because they prefer different type setups whether it be for MX, dunes, desert, etc...

I say run Chef sometimes and see if the stroker fits OUR dune needs. :devil:

Also bore is not everything, if thats the case do a 465 all bore, its all about matching the setup you run whether a 416, 440 or 465. You didnt have the stroker matched so you cant knock it down.

pnut420

02-02-2005, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by Chef
No no no...I dont think it'll go that far. I can't remember who makes the sleeve but its the same sleeve Sparks uses for their 465. Probably just LA Sleeve or the like.

I think powroll and Sparks both have 440 overbore kits also if he wanted to save $ and not resleeve, if the sleeves still good anyway.

cals400ex

02-03-2005, 12:10 AM

my LA sleeve goes from a 426 to a 445 from what i was told when i bought it. the sparks sleeve will be larger. however, you must bore the cases for that one. mine is a tapered one and boring according to them wasnt required. i at least cleaned up the rough edges and bored the cases a bit to be safe after seeing the clearances were close.

you can also purchase the JE superlight piston from LRD

MarkyNark

02-03-2005, 06:59 AM

Pnut,

Let it go man, hahaha - just let it go ....

Sorry about the "our" thing - I guess some people need a thicker skin. Regarding the subject of going to 100% rev, that was after I tried the combo approach, not before. Sorry, quads aren't like religion, I have the right to change based on info posted -

PS - Dont take posts as a personal attack, ...... you'll live longer :rolleyes:

In my humble opinion, the stroker is already too much torque for the dunes. Im not so sure that increasing the low end with a low end cam is a good idea to enhance the stroker for the dunes. Just because I say that, doesn't mean Im dissing you or the stroker.

I've got another crowd on another forum that says the only cam to run with the stroker crank is the 463/9i cam. I dont know who is right, all I know is what didnt work for me. There are plenty of other applications for the stroker, but it was not good for me on the dunes.

BTW - how old are you Pnut?

Marky

pnut420

02-03-2005, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by MarkyNark
Pnut,

Let it go man, hahaha - just let it go ....

Sorry about the "our" thing - I guess some people need a thicker skin. Regarding the subject of going to 100% rev, that was after I tried the combo approach, not before. Sorry, quads aren't like religion, I have the right to change based on info posted -

PS - Dont take posts as a personal attack, ...... you'll live longer :rolleyes:

In my humble opinion, the stroker is already too much torque for the dunes. Im not so sure that increasing the low end with a low end cam is a good thing in the dunes. Just because I say that, doesn't mean Im dissing you or the stroker.

I've got another crowd on another forum that says the only cam to run with the stroker crank is the 463/9i cam. I dont know who is right, all I know is what didnt work for me. There are plenty of other applications for the stroker, but it was not good for me on the dunes.

BTW - how old are you Pnut?

Marky

Ok Ill let it go, your right its a dog, you had a good strooker combo, but there just dogs in the dunes. You basicaly wanna say what you have to say and thats set in stones, Im building a 440 not a stroker, so Im not bias here... J ust seen strokers rock 440's just like chef and others will to you, but if you want to be bullheaded give them a run.

Also Im 22 glad you asked. :scary:

UglyMotha™

02-03-2005, 07:28 AM

{URL=http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid141/pcd91b3a7c732656e2ed0bc49b72e3fd2/f6cbd746.jpg}My Bikes{/URL}

pnut do me a big favor and copy this a put it in your sig, so i don't have to scroll sideways evertime in order to read your posts and get rid of that huge link you have now but be sure to go thru and replace all the { and } with these [ ] in order for the link to work, thanks

MarkyNark

02-03-2005, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by pnut420
Ok Ill let it go, your right its a dog, you had a good strooker combo, but there just dogs in the dunes. You basicaly wanna say what you have to say and thats set in stones, Im building a 440 not a stroker, so Im not bias here... J ust seen strokers rock 440's just like chef and others will to you, but if you want to be bullheaded give them a run.

Also Im 22 glad you asked. :scary:

Pnut,

If you are 22, why dont you act like it? Chef is cool, Im not so sure about one other person posting in this thread.

The way I look at it, Chef is probably one of the most mature dudes on this thread, and there is no doubt in my mind that if we raced, it would still be good afterwords, no matter who won. I feel this is the whole point of the dune riding culture anyways, at least it is for me.

I believe chef has built a 460 that can rev quickly and yes beat a 440. Heck I beat a 440 with my 460 - but it was a dog compared to my 440 13:1. Am I proud of that, heck no! That 460 upgrade cost me some bucks. Im not sure if Chefs 460 would have beat my 440 13:1, but it may have. Im not ready to start taking weight of my piston and compromise the structual integrity of it - I still want reliability.

PS - I never said I built a good stroker combo - duh! The real question .... is there a good combo, and what is it? And is it even practical to invest in all the upgrades to make it go.

chad502ex

02-03-2005, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by MarkyNark
Pnut,

If you are 22, why dont you act like it? Chef is cool, Im not so sure about one other person posting in this thread.

The way I look at it, Chef is probably one of the most mature dudes on this thread, and there is no doubt in my mind that if we raced, it would still be good afterwords, no matter who won. I feel this is the whole point of the dune riding culture anyways, at least it is for me.

I believe chef has built a 460 that can rev quickly and yes beat a 440. Heck I beat a 440 with my 460 - but it was a dog compared to my 440 13:1. Am I proud of that, heck no! That 460 upgrade cost me some bucks. Im not sure if Chefs 460 would have beat my 440 13:1, but it may have. Im not ready to start taking weight of my piston and compromise the structual integrity of it - I still want reliability.

PS - I never said I built a good stroker combo - duh! The real question .... is there a good combo, and what is it? And is it even practical to invest in all the upgrades to make it go.

Chef is da man!

Chef

02-03-2005, 05:44 PM

Pnut...I think you are mistaken. Mine isn't a stroker. Just a big, high compression, lightened piston that was on a flashed Hot Rods rod and flashed factory crank. This isn't a big competition between Mark and I. Where did you get that from? We have been discussing what he needed to do to either make the stroker work, or put the 440 motor back together. I can't wait until we get to ride together in the sand...it'll be a kick in the pants thats for sure.

pnut420

02-03-2005, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by Chef
Pnut...I think you are mistaken. Mine isn't a stroker. Just a big, high compression, lightened piston that was on a flashed Hot Rods rod and flashed factory crank. This isn't a big competition between Mark and I. Where did you get that from? We have been discussing what he needed to do to either make the stroker work, or put the 440 motor back together. I can't wait until we get to ride together in the sand...it'll be a kick in the pants thats for sure.

I was saying basically if he went against you , the 465 would win, I thought you did have a stroker though. What gets me is he was really coming off as this 465 isnt a good motor for our dune applications. Maybe his wasnt built right, etc. People just hear thing on this forum and go wow this guy had a 465 and says its a dog in the dunes, etc. I have seen 465 strokers that were killer in the flats and even better up comp hill. I still think a good 465 stroker will take a 440 in the dunes. Also trying to point out a 38 edlelbrock, the cam he has, LTE exhaust(Im assuming) etc... was not a good stroker combo. He could have changed a few things up and liked it, but I see where he is coming from also, he liked what he had before and it worked good.

As far as the competition part I wasnt putting you on the spot, Im sure you'd get him, but he pretty much came off to me as the 440 is the best for our dune applications and that what I has and am sticking with.

pnut420

02-03-2005, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by UglyMotha™
{URL=http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid141/pcd91b3a7c732656e2ed0bc49b72e3fd2/f6cbd746.jpg}My Bikes{/URL}

pnut do me a big favor and copy this a put it in your sig, so i don't have to scroll sideways evertime in order to read your posts and get rid of that huge link you have now but be sure to go thru and replace all the { and } with these [ ] in order for the link to work, thanks

Thanks man, never got around to editing that. :cool:

pnut420

02-03-2005, 06:31 PM

I believe chef has built a 460 that can rev quickly and yes beat a 440. Heck I beat a 440 with my 460 - but it was a dog compared to my 440 13:1. Am I proud of that, heck no! That 460 upgrade cost me some bucks. Im not sure if Chefs 460 would have beat my 440 13:1, but it may have. Im not ready to start taking weight of my piston and compromise the structual integrity of it - I still want reliability.

PS - I never said I built a good stroker combo - duh! The real question .... is there a good combo, and what is it? And is it even practical to invest in all the upgrades to make it go. [/B][/QUOTE]

I believe you can build a 440 to be faster than a 465 with the same amount of $. But it just sucks you went all out and stroked it, just seems like a bigger carb, different cam would have done it, but problem is is it doesnt its back to the drawing board.

I wouldnt go with a lighter piston either because of reliabilty also I agree with that. Hope you like the 440 and the one you build is even quicker than the other 440. I gotta stay out of this thread now. :macho

MarkyNark

02-03-2005, 06:42 PM

Pnut,

Thanks for following up with your post. Just because I say the stroker 460 was a dog, I still am open minded enough to listen to you and others about what could have been done different. The best thing I would have liked to see, which didn’t happen, is someone reading this thread that actually has a 460 stroker, and what they did to make it go fast on the dune drags and idiot holes.

You may be correct about the cam. It would seem that I just when the cam was kicking in, the stoker was pooping out. Who knows for sure though, since I didn’t get a post from someone that actually has a stroked 440 and listed what cam they use. I’m not convinced yet (and don’t take this as a dis) that the carb or the especially the exhaust is the problem. We did open up the 38DE, and the exhaust will be needed for that much more flow.

In the end, like I have already stated, I'm not convinced by the folks that have posted so far that the stroker is the way to go on the dunes - especially for idiot holes and dune drags. Flat sand drags would probably be a different story. Just because I say that, and have an opinion about that, based on my experience with the stroker, does not mean that I am being dishonest, or trying to start a war of posts. People have the right to read the posts, contemplate the variables, and decide for themselves.

You know I am 40 years old, and I view competition totally different then when I was a youngster. I've been lucky to race some pretty famous people with some incredible quads - I've lost some and won some - and I've never felt diminished from the experience.

When builders get together, a nice debate of ideas can generate new ideas. This happened in this thread, as I now have a good path to get back to the 440 with components that are available to me.

Next time your down in this area, look me up. We'll have some fun on the dunes!

pnut420

02-03-2005, 06:46 PM

Next time your down in this area, look me up. We'll have some fun on the dunes! [/B][/QUOTE]

I would but I dont know if Ill ever be up there lol, pretty far.

Good luck with the 440 and be sure to tell us how the new one works out :cool:

EPDP99

02-03-2005, 07:14 PM

i posted that i have a 440 stroked with the 450/451 grind cam and it compliments the stroker well. on the dyno i pumped out 52.6hp and that was with really bad jetting. Once i get jetting im going to try to get it dyno'd again to see how much more it gains.

MarkyNark

02-03-2005, 09:38 PM

EPDP99,

What mods did you have at the time you had it dynoed?

Carb, exhaust, type of fuel, head work, valves and piston make and compression.

Thanks

EPDP99

02-04-2005, 07:14 AM

fcr41mm, 450/451 cam, c12 fuel, port and polish. 3 angle valve job and chamber mod(done by trinity racing), superlight JE piston 12.5:1 compression, full trinity exhaust, big gun cdi box.

The head pipe on the trinity is kind of restrictive. Its a little small in the headpipe area the cones out big into the silencer. I heard alot of people making good power with the sparks x-6. But i think your lte's would be plenty fine.

MarkyNark

02-04-2005, 07:19 AM

Thanks. Sounds like the carb and cam helped alot. I'm not ready to dump my carb yet. But that good info for anybody else following this thread. Im pretty familiar with C12 and U4. The manufacturer claims that U4 is better in 4 stroke high compression engines than C12 - but who knows for sure.

I guess my question to you is how did it rev compared to your 440?

EPDP99

02-04-2005, 08:30 AM

ive actually heard from builders that pump gas can be run in anything. It doesnt matter compression. Its all hype they say. alot of air planes are running pump instead of avgas because its not needed. whether its true or not i dont know but ill play it safe and run the race. I have tried another fuel and it wasnt bad but only saw it in yuma at the dunes. fl-4 or something. 112 octane and cheaper than c-12. well right about the same price but i figured it had a markup due to location of where it was purchased. im still troubleshooting carb jetting on mine and down low its really bad but up top not too bad. But i hope to see my powercurve change if not increase hp and lb.-tq.

EPDP99

02-04-2005, 08:36 AM

Trinity showed me dyno runs of a 465 with same mods as mine vs a 479 grind cam. 479 had higher hp #'s by 3 hp. but the powercurve was way lower along with the tq. webcam wants them to sell the 479 but they wont because it doesnt perform as good on the dyno. again its matching motor with cam with porting with exhaust and compression. to make the best motor things need to be working together. i really havent heard that much good things from that 38mm carb but its hard to throw away a hard earned $500 that fast. plus you know what you want and like. although i know that the fcr is alot harder to jet because of so many adjustments. but i hear once you get it it will scream. so gotta do alot more jetting on mine!!:D

cals400ex

02-04-2005, 02:36 PM

has anyone tried to thermal coat any of their engine parts? it seems as if we are trying to get a tad bit more always. i actually have my piston thermally coated along with my pipe. i also purchansed a lighter piston pin from ross. i am not saying any of this helped but i assume it couldn't hurt.

EPDP99

02-04-2005, 03:59 PM

my pipe is jet caoted.

Chef

02-04-2005, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by EPDP99
ive actually heard from builders that pump gas can be run in anything. It doesnt matter compression. Its all hype they say.

When I get home I'll try to find the piston that I used pump gas on in my EX to take a picture of. (It wasn't by choice...Someone at camp put the pump gas can where my Trick can was...and they looked the same. Wrote on the cans ever since) It was a 12.5:1 440. Run the race, it'll save you money.

EPDP99

02-04-2005, 10:21 PM

id definetaly like to see it. dont worry ill be running the race fuel anyways. What can i say, I love the way it smells. haha. what an excuse even if i didnt have motor work.

MarkyNark

03-05-2005, 05:57 AM

Well we got the stroker crank out yesterday and installed a stock stroked crank. I put the 13:1 back in and will be running the Web 463/9i cam with that. Also dropped in a Carillo rod.

Time will tell is this can get me back to the quick revving, or even quicker revving (I hope) 440 that I enjoyed so much.

Wish me luck!

chad502ex

03-05-2005, 06:43 AM

Originally posted by EPDP99
ive actually heard from builders that pump gas can be run in anything. It doesnt matter compression. Its all hype they say. alot of air planes are running pump instead of avgas because its not needed. whether its true or not i dont know but ill play it safe and run the race. I have tried another fuel and it wasnt bad but only saw it in yuma at the dunes. fl-4 or something. 112 octane and cheaper than c-12. well right about the same price but i figured it had a markup due to location of where it was purchased. im still troubleshooting carb jetting on mine and down low its really bad but up top not too bad. But i hope to see my powercurve change if not increase hp and lb.-tq.

no. go ahead and try on your stroker and tell me what eventually happens.

the pre-detonation force ends up pounds the rod and crank/bearings to death until finally,...

i've seen a built raptor and stroked ex both meet its unfortunate fate after pulling up to the pump and fill'n her up with pump fuel with no throw in splash octane booster. the cracked rod ended up coming through the case of the raptor. ouch.

if you can delay pre-detonation with cam timing it'll be ok.

EPDP99

03-05-2005, 07:10 AM

Originally posted by chad502ex
no. go ahead and try on your stroker and tell me what eventually happens.

the pre-detonation force ends up pounds the rod and crank/bearings to death until finally,...

i've seen a built raptor and stroked ex both meet its unfortunate fate after pulling up to the pump and fill'n her up with pump fuel with no throw in splash octane booster. the cracked rod ended up coming through the case of the raptor. ouch.

if you can delay pre-detonation with cam timing it'll be ok.

Like I said, thats what I heard and Im not gonna risk it. Ill race all day long and be happy.

chad502ex

03-05-2005, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by EPDP99
Like I said, thats what I heard and Im not gonna risk it. Ill race all day long and be happy.

yes be happy!:)

R3Concepts

03-05-2005, 10:40 AM

As in happy you mean?

MarkyNark

03-06-2005, 08:43 AM

I tested out the 440 today - thats where its at! Thats exactly what I need for dune riding. I will say this, that the stroked 440 (460) did have more top end speed with my configuration (cam and piston), but thats about it. But for raw, hard-hitting mid range and screaming top end thats the right combo! That 13:1, 463/9i cam and 440 is awesome - nothing but smiles here, and it isnt even broken in yet!

pnut420

03-06-2005, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by MarkyNark
I tested out the 440 today - thats where its at! Thats exactly what I need for dune riding. I will say this, that the stroked 440 (460) did have more top end speed with my configuration (cam and piston), but thats about it. But for raw, hard-hitting mid range and screaming top end thats the right combo! That 13:1, 463/9i cam and 440 is awesome - nothing but smiles here, and it isnt even broken in yet!

Sweet glad you like it. Ill be getting my brothers 440 back from GT in a few days, ported head, HMF exhaust, FCR39mm, and just 11:1 compression and a cheap ole stage 2 hotcam ;) . Its gonna be more of a MX motor but we go to the dunes often, he didnt want to dish out the $ for the carillo rod so he stuck with 11:1.

Chef

03-06-2005, 02:31 PM

Good Mark...turns out we knew what we were talking about the whole time. :macho

PimpC

03-07-2005, 11:53 PM

okay guys, here's what I'm gathering from this thread:

If I'm going to run the 440 piston kit with a stroker from powroll, I need a:
41mm fcr,
good exhaust,
ported head (but what about 1mm oversize valves) and from who?
and a 450/451 cam

what else do I need to make all-around power? not for the dunes but I still would like to drag race my buddies on the street home from the woods.

thanks.

MarkyNark

03-08-2005, 07:49 AM

You'll have lots of top end speed with that set up. I beat stock DS650s on flat drags all day with it - Great Fun!

Web makes some decent oversize valves.

Also, you concluded exactly the right thing when you go to a bigger carb - Hardwelded rockers too! I would think the 479 Grind cam would also be a good choice, but with those you have to get the shortend valve guides.

MarkyNark

03-08-2005, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by Chef
Good Mark...turns out we knew what we were talking about the whole time. :macho

Chef,

I also got a secret weapon when I went to the stock stroke crank - the stroke is now indeed stock, but it has been lightened. ZOOM!

PimpC

03-08-2005, 09:10 AM

what is the difference between the 479 and a 450/451?

I had planned to go with a duncan complete head job with shortened valve guides, over size valves, and hardened rockers, anyway. what else do I need to get this motor going? I was thing lightening the flywheel? is that bad with a stroker?

on another note: does anyone have experience with a wiseco pin and bearing, as mine are bad and powroll says it won't hold up to abuse. there seems to be no replacement for stock without buying a whole oe crank?:(

K_Fulk

03-08-2005, 02:17 PM

The 479 has less duration and more valve lift. I know it works great on 440's. Havent used one on a stroked bike. But worked great all the way around on the 440.

Chef

03-08-2005, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by MarkyNark
Chef,

I also got a secret weapon when I went to the stock stroke crank - the stroke is now indeed stock, but it has been lightened. ZOOM!

Mine is lightened as well...its awesome.

EPDP99

03-08-2005, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by R3Concepts426ex
As in happy you mean?

Happy getting smoked by you and banshees with mods!!:D

EPDP99

03-08-2005, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by K_Fulk
The 479 has less duration and more valve lift. I know it works great on 440's. Havent used one on a stroked bike. But worked great all the way around on the 440.

This is true but on the stroked motor it had abot 3-5 more peak hp but the curve was not great. the best curve was with the 450/451 grind.

EPDP99

03-08-2005, 11:09 PM

im sure those 440s do awesome, Id love to ride one compared to mine. Mine puls really hard but it doesnt do well revving like needed at the dunes. i havent looked at my dyno in a while but i think my curve starts droping at like 7000 rpm or near there. I was spanking most bikes until like 3/4 up the hill and they would catch me. But on short steep hills i was gone because i was in my sweet spot the whole time. Also changing from sand skate 2's to some 8 paddle extremes helped a bunch but from what i understand the 7 paddle is the dragging paddle of choice.

EPDP99

03-09-2005, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by MarkyNark
I tested out the 440 today - thats where its at! Thats exactly what I need for dune riding. I will say this, that the stroked 440 (460) did have more top end speed with my configuration (cam and piston), but thats about it. But for raw, hard-hitting mid range and screaming top end thats the right combo! That 13:1, 463/9i cam and 440 is awesome - nothing but smiles here, and it isnt even broken in yet!

Sorry to bring this up but im still confused as to how the stroker was a better top end than the revving 440? mine revs for s***. like i said tops out at like 7000 rpm, but man does it pull really freaking hard until then. plus rider is huge. The bikes i lost to would have easily been won if i was better. i also am running a 14-38 gearing and think i would benifit by going to a different sized rear that isnt as drastic. I tried 13 and 15 tooth sprokets on mine with stock rear and 14 seemed to be the best. I ride at imperial(glamis, Buttercup,Gorden wells) so as for oregon dunes i have no experience on hill sizes or sand.

MarkyNark

03-09-2005, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by EPDP99
Sorry to bring this up but im still confused as to how the stroker was a better top end than the revving 440? mine revs for s***. like i said tops out at like 7000 rpm, but man does it pull really freaking hard until then. plus rider is huge. The bikes i lost to would have easily been won if i was better. i also am running a 14-38 gearing and think i would benifit by going to a different sized rear that isnt as drastic. I tried 13 and 15 tooth sprokets on mine with stock rear and 14 seemed to be the best. I ride at imperial(glamis, Buttercup,Gorden wells) so as for oregon dunes i have no experience on hill sizes or sand.

Rev Quickness with the Stroker is NOT GOOD.
Top End Speed for the Stroker is GOOD

EPDP99

03-09-2005, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by MarkyNark
Rev Quickness with the Stroker is NOT GOOD.
Top End Speed for the Stroker is GOOD

Ok i see, mine seems to rev really fast. I cant imagine how fast yours revs. mine pulls really really hard till 7000 rpm then starts to fall. It revs fast just not high.

R3Concepts

03-09-2005, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by EPDP99
Happy getting smoked by you and banshees with mods!!:D

I didnt smoke you..Damn auto pilot will sure take you for a ride though.:D

EPDP99

03-09-2005, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by R3Concepts426ex
I didnt smoke you..Damn auto pilot will sure take you for a ride though.:D

That lt PEP sure helps a bunch too:D

R3Concepts

03-09-2005, 05:56 PM

Forgot about those:p

MarkyNark

08-10-2005, 05:19 PM

After some thought, I'm putting the 4mil stroker back into my EX with a less aggressive cam. Im taking out the Web 463/9i cam and replacing them with the Web 450/451 entry level cams. That should match the torque specs. Also will be adding Boondocker Nitrous as well, that should bring the power curve down another 1000 RPM. Because of that, I am putting back in the 12:1 piston from the 13:1. I should know in a few weeks how things go.

Chef

08-10-2005, 05:53 PM

Were you at Dunefest Mark? I think I might have seen your pickup...

Let me know how you like the stroker, and what you needed to make it all work correctly and live.

MarkyNark

08-10-2005, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by Chef
Were you at Dunefest Mark? I think I might have seen your pickup...

Let me know how you like the stroker, and what you needed to make it all work correctly and live.

Chef,

Hey man. Yes, I was at Dunefest running around in the Dune Wagon. Green Ford truck with logos on either side.

If the combo doesn't work good, at least I can now push the button for NOS! Most of the NOS work should be done by the end of the day tomorrow. Good stuff!

Marky

K_Fulk

08-10-2005, 09:01 PM

Would you be interested in selling the 463/9I cam.

Just got my cranked balanced for my 92mm piston. Only cam i have sow is a WB 1498, I would like to try a 463 grind and a megacylce x-2 also see what setup I like best.

Or if your interested in trading for the 1498 it would compliment the stroker as well.

MarkyNark

08-10-2005, 09:08 PM

If I like the new one I'll use the 463/9i for a core refund.

EPDP99

08-11-2005, 07:30 PM

Marky, what rpm range are you looking to get into. I have a 440 stroked +4 and running the 450/451 grind now. torque and hp top out at like 6k on my dyno sheet. Hp was at 52 and tq was at 37. that was with a superlite je piston with 12.5:1 compression. i am in the process of getting head redone because builder didnt hardweld rockers so they are ruined. I will also be switching to the 463/9i for the revs i cant get on mine now. a bunch of builders told me that going to the 463 would be the premo setup. let me know how it goes.

MarkyNark

08-11-2005, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by EPDP99
Marky, what rpm range are you looking to get into. I have a 440 stroked +4 and running the 450/451 grind now. torque and hp top out at like 6k on my dyno sheet. Hp was at 52 and tq was at 37. that was with a superlite je piston with 12.5:1 compression. i am in the process of getting head redone because builder didnt hardweld rockers so they are ruined. I will also be switching to the 463/9i for the revs i cant get on mine now. a bunch of builders told me that going to the 463 would be the premo setup. let me know how it goes.

EPDP99,

I'm looking for torque, not high speed. I want to be able to blast out of tree shots and steep dune drags. That meas an RPM powerband from 3-6K, The 463/9i cam is NOT for that. It was a nice experiment, and I did gain a lot of top end speed, but lost a ton of torque. In my opinion, so far, the 9i cam is not in-line with a stroker motor for me - its way too open. But saying that, things could change. Thats why I purchased the Boondocker Nitrous kit so I would have a quick way to push another 20hp out of it when I need it.

PimpC

08-12-2005, 07:41 PM

about that 41 fcr having problems on the bottom end that is exactly what powroll said would happen on the 41

they said to run the 39 and it will be clean on the bottom and still run well up top

does gt thunder have a website?

EPDP99

08-13-2005, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by MarkyNark
EPDP99,

I'm looking for torque, not high speed. I want to be able to blast out of tree shots and steep dune drags. That meas an RPM powerband from 3-6K, The 463/9i cam is NOT for that. It was a nice experiment, and I did gain a lot of top end speed, but lost a ton of torque. In my opinion, so far, the 9i cam is not in-line with a stroker motor for me - its way too open. But saying that, things could change. Thats why I purchased the Boondocker Nitrous kit so I would have a quick way to push another 20hp out of it when I need it.

Then maybe we need the exact opposite motors. i need the high speed for the long wide open dunes of glamis and buttercup and you need the lowend torque for the shorter steep stuff.

MarkyNark

08-13-2005, 06:08 PM

If you like top speed, you'll love the 463/9i cam. But it will not be nearly as easy to bring up the front end. - Torque is gone.

EPDP99

08-14-2005, 12:13 AM

well ill give it a shot since i have to have my head redone because my builder didnt use hardened rockers and my rockers were ground down. so ill be using the 450/451 grind since the wear pattern is quite messed up. i was going to keep it just to switch back and forth but not anymore.

oh ya and youll love the 450/451 because it will pull the wheels really hard. i was running sand skate 2's and went to extreme 8 paddles and WOW. just the difference in paddles. I might even get rid of them for some regular haulers or some buffed ones.

MarkyNark

08-14-2005, 07:43 AM

EPDP99,

Hey there's nothing wrong with experimenting. All you have to do is look at this thread and see mine! LOL

For me the experiment will be more about how the NOS will work with that 450/451 grind cam. That cam is already huge on torque - will flip just about anything over on the low end. Now Im adding NOS, which brings the torque curve down another 1000 RPM - Holy Crap ! I should have a tractor when I am finished!

After not having it, I realize how much I use torque. Its not only what gets you out of the idiot holes, it gives you that boost to jump razor backs & pop wheelies. I missed that. Especially when navigating low speed terrain.

EPDP99

08-14-2005, 10:31 AM

well have fun and deffinetally post results. hope all goes well.

MarkyNark

08-19-2005, 07:24 PM

I got everything put back together today. Gonna try the NOS and the 460 stroker tomorrow at Florence. This could be interesting.

MarkyNark

08-21-2005, 09:34 AM

I got back from Florence yesterday. I am totally impressed. Clearly, its the best dune combination for the EX I have experienced yet. Much better than the 440 alone, the stroker with the right cam, provides tons of torque, and a huge amount of horsepower as well as good top end. I raced quite a few quads in different situations and hill types - everytime I had excellent results.

I added the Nitrous system and had a chance to test it later in the day. I decided to start low with a 15hp shot. It worked flawlessly - I had no problems with it, and when someone was even with me on a race, I just hit the button and pulled away. No lean issues at all. I'll be moving up to a 20hp shot this week. I didnt bother to hide the bottle - Mounted it right up front for the world to see - Lots of people came over to look at it -

This is the most satisfying build I have had yet. I feel like I've died and gone to heaven. :D

EPDP99

08-22-2005, 05:26 PM

well done, how did you like it without the NOS?

MarkyNark

08-22-2005, 05:31 PM

I ran it for the first half of the day without Nitrous. I was very pleased. Tons of torque, good rev, and nice top end. It wasnt as fast as with the 463/9i cam, but I dont need that kind of top speed if I have to sacrifice the dunability of the quad. She's as fast as I'll ever need to go - and if I need to go faster, the "Go Baby" button is right there!

mikeboone

08-22-2005, 07:01 PM

I have the new Wiseco 460 stroker setup. Web 463, Ported head, Sparks X6, FCR 41,etc and strictly do drag racing. Wiseco supplied CP stroker piston with their crank and it has VERY low compression and I can def feel lack of power from it.

Any of you guys have 12:1-13:1 4mm stroker piston you would like to sell? CP doesnt have comp ratio on box but it's flat top and happily runs 93 pump gas:eek:

Does Trinity utilize a 4mm stroker crank and will they sell just the 12:1 piston? Numerous attempts to contact Sales has been unfruitful.

Marky; what comp piston are you running now with 20 hp shot of nitrous?

MarkyNark

08-22-2005, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by mikeboone
I have the new Wiseco 460 stroker setup. Web 463, Ported head, Sparks X6, FCR 41,etc and strictly do drag racing. Wiseco supplied CP stroker piston with their crank and it has VERY low compression and I can def feel lack of power from it.

Any of you guys have 12:1-13:1 4mm stroker piston you would like to sell? CP doesnt have comp ratio on box but it's flat top and happily runs 93 pump gas:eek:

Does Trinity utilize a 4mm stroker crank and will they sell just the 12:1 piston? Numerous attempts to contact Sales has been unfruitful.

Marky; what comp piston are you running now with 20 hp shot of nitrous?

Im running the 12:1 JE Superlight with a 15 shot. Going to a 20 shot this week and will need to go another step cooler on the plug to a 10.

EPDP99

08-23-2005, 01:31 PM

I'm running the JE 12.5:1 superlite also, but do NOT get it from trinity. The service is crap. they dont stand behind their work. I have to pay to get my head fixed because the lack of parts they installed because they were the builder and said you didnt need them.Hmmmmm hardwelded rockers with hardwelded cam, nope dont need those.(per them that is). then they want me to spend 1k to get my quad there to look at it and then pay them to add the parts when it was part of the original deal. Even when I already had to pay 1k to get it to them to fix the timing and got it back covered in oil, ruined my grips, and they jetted with a dyno....and its wayyyyyy off. Sorry, got off tanget but still quite bitter about it. just get it from someone who deals with JE. or get it directly from JE.