Just got my stock 88R....but have some issues...

[YFZRob]

Well, she showed up today from Michigan where it was picked up on Thursday. It's completely stock except for Z400 dunlops and a K&N. First thing I did was check the coolant and gas. Coolant looks good and full. The gas smelled somewhat fresh, but I am really anal with my oils, so I drained that out. I added a gallon of fresh 93 octane w/ 30:1 ratio of Maxima Super-M oil. She started up on the 2nd kick and ran great. I went out for a quick ride after getting some warmth in the motor. It ran really well, except for the top end of the powerband where it had a miss to it. After about 5 minutes, I came back in with it. Since the engine was hot, I decided to test the compression. After 3 kicks, it was up to 150 psi! Nice! Well, the plug had some gas moisture on it, so I tore down the carb. I discovered the needle to be on the 2nd clip instead of the 3rd, so I dropped the clip. I confirmed the main jet is the stock 158. I checked the air screw, which was out only 1/2 turn, so I brought it out to 1 3/4 turns out.

I put everything back together and went back out. At first, it still had the high RPM miss to it. About 2 minutes of riding cleaned that up. All of the sudden she was clean across the entire powerband and WOW, not too slow.....faster than I was expecting. That enjoyment only lasted about 5 minutes when the miss came back and even worse. The whole way back to the house it was missing with any load, and never cleared up. No matter what RPM, any throttle would cause it to miss. So, I pulled the plug and it's perfect....a nice light brown with no moisture. This is where I came in here to the computer. Any ideas??? I'm a little disappionted since the quad is so nice, but it's just the beginning, so I know it'll get sorted out.

Thanks for any input! Here's a photo of the beast :D
http://www.looseboltsmotorsports.com/images/atv/IMG_0219.JPG

[YFZRob]

UPDATE:

I pulled the carb again to check to see if the MJ got clogged. Nothing there. I then pulled the reed cage to check the condition of the reeds, and they're okay. I checked the fuel level and it looked like there was still a good 3/4 gallon left in there, and I was running it on reserve the whole time. Since I was out of ideas, I threw in another 1.5 gallons and sure enough, she's running better, but still not perfect. It ran MUCH cleaner, but occasionally had the same miss, then cleared up, and it still doesn't rev out very smoothly. Maybe being used to my YFZ has spoiled me with a never-ending powerband. When it feels like I short shift, the R flies. I know the tranny has closer ratios as well though.

Anyway, I am going to throw a BR8ES in it and see how it responds. The BR9ES in there now is gapped correctly at .028".

[ESR250R]

use the br8es plug, and i believe your main jet is off. if that thing is stock then your main jet should be around 148-150. maybe a 152 with the filter. is your airbox lid on or off?

[YFZRob]

According to the original owners manual that came with it :cool: the stock main jet is a 158. It seems like it is rich though, so I may throw in a 152 or 155. The airbox lid is on. I may pull that and see if it clears it up.

[250rpilot]

the stock 250r pipes like to be short shifted. they dont allow for a whole lot of RPM. it still should not be breaking up. sounds like you are heading in the right direction with your troubleshooting, hope you get her fixed up right!

[beerock]

play with the main jet and do WOT chops ,once you get a good clean top end, play with the needle.

if you dropped the clip you richened it up. in 1/4-3/4 if it ran better then dont lean out the main go higher.

for a psi test your suppose to kick it over a bunch of times until it wont go higher with the throttle WOT

[Sanchez]

Have you tried a fresh br9, I have had similar problems with a plug starting to foul, it looked fine but wasn't . Put in a new plug and problem was gone... just a thought.

[TheFontMaster]

check the seals between the pipe and motor, carb and intake boot, carb and air box. You might have an air leak somewhere. Also check the fuel lines to make shure u don't have a clog in the lines.

[addictedtomud]

Shouldn't you go up in main jet size with a K&N filter?

That's a nice R!

Kyle

[addictedtomud]

Also, is the airbox lid on?
Kyle

[beerock]

he doesnt have airleaks hes getting a fouled plug if there was an air leak the plugs would be white...

do what i said.....and get back to us

[YFZRob]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I will check into toying with the MJ as well as taking the lid off to see if it helps lean it out enough with the 158 that's in it. I'll get back once I've played around with it some more.

[trx310]

put a 160 MJ in it and take the airbox lid off. Check all of your seals too.

[brokeitin3]

Theres nothing that will ever compare to the sight og a stock r, looks like it was very well taken care of.

[YFZRob]

Yes, it's been very well maintained. I have seen 03 Z-400s in worse shape than this, so for being 17 years old, she's immaculate. I sold my 03 KFX-400, which was mint, but still only marginally nicer than this R, and I am an extremely anal person with my toys. Other than wear and tear from my riding boots, my quads stay immaculate, so I will be preserving this R as long as I am physically capable of riding :D

[edz250r]

Where did you come across that R and how much did you pay if you dont mind sharing? That about the cleanest stock R I've seen!

[YFZRob]

I had good timing with a search for an R on the atvtraderonline.com site. I bought it from a guy in Michigan who had 2 of them. He was the 2nd owner of this one since the mid 90s. He had it sitting in storage for 6 years and decided it was time to let it go. I paid $4885, but had to spend $448 to ship it down here safely.

[papatrx]

You will love having it bone stock, it will draw as much attention as a custom one. The last one I bought for our daugher was a 1986 trx totally bone stock. It was the original owner who kept it at his cabin in the woods and only rode it on the fire roads around the forest in the summer. All the saftey stickers are still on it and I don't think the tool box was ever opened in fact the original knobbies still have 90% of the tred left. She only goes out with us about 2 times a year and every time we take it I have many people looking at it. One guy up at the coral pink dunes wanted to buy it for $4500 right there.

Our other r's are all polished and powder coated everything and she wants the same done to hers.....NOT A CHANCE. It's like finding a mint 63 vette and flaring the fenders....

Keep it stock and enjoy the feeling...

[beerock]

Originally posted by YFZRob
Yes, it's been very well maintained. I have seen 03 Z-400s in worse shape than this, so for being 17 years old, she's immaculate. I sold my 03 KFX-400, which was mint, but still only marginally nicer than this R, and I am an extremely anal person with my toys. Other than wear and tear from my riding boots, my quads stay immaculate, so I will be preserving this R as long as I am physically capable of riding :D

no quad is marginally nicer then A BONE STOCK good condition R

and that thing is MINT!

I know someone who paid over 7000 for a R like yours!!

[YFZRob]

WOW!! I feel better about my purchase now! I am retaining all of the stock parts, however, I am not keeping it completely stock. I don't want to wear out the stock top end to the point of needing a rebuild, so I just purchased a complete new 310cc bolt-on kit from ESR. I will set all stock parts aside so I can return to stock if I so desire. I wanted to leave it completely stock, but I also want to enjoy it. I just ordered stock handlebars and grips to replace the slighly worn grips and slightly bent bars. I will continue to buy new OE honda parts for everything except the top end of the motor. It will be one heck of a sleeper too except for the head and the pipe that will stick out just a tad ;)

Thank you for all of your suggestions and comments!

[muddy400EX]

http://www.looseboltsmotorsports.com/images/atv/IMG_0219.JPG [/B][/QUOTE]




the things you can do with that quad!:)

[beerock]

Originally posted by YFZRob
WOW!! I feel better about my purchase now! I am retaining all of the stock parts, however, I am not keeping it completely stock. I don't want to wear out the stock top end to the point of needing a rebuild, so I just purchased a complete new 310cc bolt-on kit from ESR. I will set all stock parts aside so I can return to stock if I so desire. I wanted to leave it completely stock, but I also want to enjoy it. I just ordered stock handlebars and grips to replace the slighly worn grips and slightly bent bars. I will continue to buy new OE honda parts for everything except the top end of the motor. It will be one heck of a sleeper too except for the head and the pipe that will stick out just a tad ;)

Thank you for all of your suggestions and comments!

do mea favor and buy some ohtuses for it fornt and rear when there owrn out so you REALLY have a bone stock R

[YFZRob]

That's what I was thinking.....some people like the Ohtusu tires, others hate them.....are they decent?

[addictedtomud]

The stock Ohtsu tires are outstanding stock meats. They grip very well, but the tread wears quick. And remember they are only 2ply, so are easily punctured.

PS - Your R will never look "bone stock" without them !!!

[beerock]

Originally posted by YFZRob
That's what I was thinking.....some people like the Ohtusu tires, others hate them.....are they decent?

ohtsus hook up better then any rear tire, and you can go faster over the whoops with them as well, only problem is they cut easy.

IN SAND racing you cant use paddles and ohtsus hook up better then any tire in sand.

[muddy400EX]

what exactly are the Ohtsus tires. they arent the tires that come on the 400ex are they cuz if so you guys are crazy cuz mine didnt hook up at all!:eek:

[beerock]

Originally posted by muddy400EX
what exactly are the Ohtsus tires. they arent the tires that come on the 400ex are they cuz if so you guys are crazy cuz mine didnt hook up at all!:eek:

yes thats them. you were running too much air in them.

4-5 fornt 3-4 in rear

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by addictedtomud
The stock Ohtsu tires are outstanding stock meats. They grip very well, but the tread wears quick. And remember they are only 2ply, so are easily punctured.

PS - Your R will never look "bone stock" without them !!!

Maybe the radials or early (86-87) 250r tires are only 2 ply. For a great tire, try the PC101 front and PC301 rear Pro-Comp tires from Ohtsu. These are Ohtsu's race tires and work excellent on a 250R. I've run them in the GNCC's for eight years and flats have been almost non-exsistant. They are difficult to find since only the Honda dealer can get them, and even they have a hard time finding a listing for them. If anybody is interested, I can provide the Honda part number so your dealer doesn't lose his mind trying to find them.

[beerock]

Originally posted by Rich250RRacer
Maybe the radials or early (86-87) 250r tires are only 2 ply. For a great tire, try the PC101 front and PC301 rear Pro-Comp tires from Ohtsu. These are Ohtsu's race tires and work excellent on a 250R. I've run them in the GNCC's for eight years and flats have been almost non-exsistant. They are difficult to find since only the Honda dealer can get them, and even they have a hard time finding a listing for them. If anybody is interested, I can provide the Honda part number so your dealer doesn't lose his mind trying to find them.

pics?

[joe1l]

Anyway, I am going to throw a BR8ES in it and see how it responds. The BR9ES in there now is gapped correctly at .028".

I think that is too cold of a plug. If memory serves me correct, the BR8ES is the correct plug for the R. I would put the 8 in and gap it right. Another thing you may want to check is that the silencer isn't all clogged up. I know that will cause issues, even though the bike is new, it doesn't mean the silencer isn't gunked up. Next thing to double check is that you did a good mix of 32:1. 30:1 is too much oil, especially if you are running these new type of synthetic oils. Drain the gas and mix at least 1 gallon of fresh premium pump, and oil at 32:1. Let us know how you make out.

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by beerock
pics?

I have a new set I'm going to mount up, so I'll get some pics on in the next day or two. The fronts are identical in tread pattern to factory 86-87 250R tires, but with a much heavier sidewall and tread. Rears have a very stiff sidewall, and only require about 3lbs of air, even in the rockiest conditions. Stamped right in the sidewall "for sanctioned off-road racing events only".

[YFZRob]

Ronnies ATV sells the original Ohtsu tires, at least they state they are the original 88-89 Ohtsu's. I think they only get $55 each for the rears and about the same or less for the fronts. Are you guys talking about the 86-87 tires or the 88-89 tires as being a good soft terrain tire?


BR9ES is actually listed as the factory plug in the 88 owners manual. There is a note in there though to go to a BR8ES if the BR9ES is constantly wet with fuel. I did clean out the silencer, which appeared to be decent....just a lot of soot. I've got a case of Maxima Caster 927 on the way, which cannot be mixed with regular 2 stroke oil (from what I hear), so I'll be draining out what's in there now and go to a 32:1 mix. I almost crapped myself when I read the 20:1 ratio requirement on the tank. I know this is an old 2 stroke, but COME ON! Even my old '85 Kawi JS550 jet ski with an ancient piston port 2 stroke requires a 50:1 ratio.....and my old '89 Kawi KX-500 required a 32:1. A lot of the KX-500 guys suggested even leaner on the oil when using quality stuff....like 40:1.

[dudeonit]

If this engine has the origonal crank seals, I would replace them. the clutch side, if worn, dried out, it will pull in gearbox oil and foul plugs if bad enough.

I would pull all your electrical connections apart and check for problems . Clip a little of the spark plug cable to ensure good continuity to the plug.

The stock carb could have a worn needle/seat or bad float, and would exhibit these symptoms.

[YFZRob]

dudeonit,

Pardon the ignorance, but which crankcase seals are you referring to? The outer case oil seals for the crankshaft? The gasket connecting the crank case halves together?

I will check the wire at the end of the plug wire going into the boot....I should have known to check that....all of my old jet ski dealings have had issues with that. This bike is so amazingly clean, it's hard to believe anything else electrical is bad, but it's still 17 years old.

The float may be sticking, but I know the needle and seat are fine.

Thanks!!

[papatrx]

The 20:1 ratio stamped on the tank was to protect honda from the guy that buys the cheapest 2 stroke oil he can find at the grocery store. There are many excellent synthetic oils out there now to run at 50:1. I used to use the castor 927 but switched because every time I tore down an engine there was a tremedous build up on the exhaust port. Most of the engine builders I know have switched to one of the name brand full synthetic...bel ray, amzoil etc.

[YFZRob]

UPDATE>>>

I cut back some of the plug wire, which didn't appear to be needed since the wire is perfect...no corrosion or anything on the wires. So, I did that and took her out for a ride. Everything went well, but still a little hesitation up high again. Well, I then pulled the airbox lid and BAM! She screams now without any hesitation. You can feel her falling off at the top end of the powerband, but it runs smooth up there now...like it should. So you guys with the suggestions on jetting leaner pin pointed it. Kinda odd that Honda suggests the 158 when it obviously was way too rich for 70 degrees at sea level.

[YFZRob]

Yeah, I know of a lot of people who have issues with the Castor 927 getting gummy, but at the same time, you're getting that gummy coating on your bearings and cylinder wall, so it's a trade off I suppose. I know several watercraft guys who have gotten salt water in their crank cases and were saved by the goop from the 927 :D. I also stopped using it on my KX500 due to the power valve getting gummed up on other peoples bikes. BUT, since I'm not running a power valve, I'm not too concerned about it.....I just LOVE the smell :devil:

I also discovered upon further inspection, I have a 12 tooth front sproket, which probably explains the majorly short time in gears at WOT. I've got new 13/38 Renthal sprockets on order to fix that. I'm not sure if it's the 12 tooth or the big bad K&N w/o a lid, but this thing FLIES! It's no YFZ, but I think it'd walk my old KFX wthout a problem. We'll see this weekend...I'm going to take her out riding this weekend with some other quads.

Thank you all for all of the help!

[dudeonit]

The rubber crankshaft oil seals tend to dry out and become brittle over time. Wearing of the mag-side will cause continuous lean conditions and the clutch side will load up the plug, causing fouling etc. If you don't see signs of oil fouling and you are maintaining higher fuel/oil ratios, this points to fuel or electrical system problems.

[YFZRob]

So do you guys suggest that I can safely run 50:1 with Maxima Castor 927? I sure would like to since this stuff is not cheap.

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by YFZRob
Ronnies ATV sells the original Ohtsu tires, at least they state they are the original 88-89 Ohtsu's. I think they only get $55 each for the rears and about the same or less for the fronts. Are you guys talking about the 86-87 tires or the 88-89 tires as being a good soft terrain tire?


BR9ES is actually listed as the factory plug in the 88 owners manual. There is a note in there though to go to a BR8ES if the BR9ES is constantly wet with fuel. I did clean out the silencer, which appeared to be decent....just a lot of soot. I've got a case of Maxima Caster 927 on the way, which cannot be mixed with regular 2 stroke oil (from what I hear), so I'll be draining out what's in there now and go to a 32:1 mix. I almost crapped myself when I read the 20:1 ratio requirement on the tank. I know this is an old 2 stroke, but COME ON! Even my old '85 Kawi JS550 jet ski with an ancient piston port 2 stroke requires a 50:1 ratio.....and my old '89 Kawi KX-500 required a 32:1. A lot of the KX-500 guys suggested even leaner on the oil when using quality stuff....like 40:1.

Original 88-89 tires are radial, they are not the same as a Pro-Comp. Pro-Comps are supposed to be "race only" and Ohtsu does not even show them on their website. I could be wrong, but I doubt Ronnie's could find them. They are only listed in one Honda counter/price book. Chapparel did sell them at one time, but I haven't seen them in any of their recent ads. I should have pics on tonight of my new set for anybody that may be interested in them, and I will provide the Honda part number so your dealer can order them.

[beerock]

Originally posted by YFZRob
So do you guys suggest that I can safely run 50:1 with Maxima Castor 927? I sure would like to since this stuff is not cheap.

NO927 needs to be mixed at 32:1 Seriously stop using it, who cares what it smells like, over time the carbon build up on the exhaust flange and in the pipe will kill your power trust me on this, I use to run maxima castor 927, every inspection of the engine lead to me spending at least 2 hours on cleaning the exhaust port because it had so much carbon build up. SECOND you cant tell if the gas is mixed or not because 927 is the same color as gas.

start running amsoil dominaotr at 50:1 and there will be no carbon build up and it will protect your motor BETTER then 927 even at 50:1 THIRD your pocket will thank you because running 32:1 requires alot more oil then 50:1, but only do it with amsoil dominator 2 stroke racing oil!!!!!!

I switched to it and will never go back to anything else.

[YFZRob]

Well, too late. I've got a case of it coming from RMATV. I'll clean the pipe every so often....no biggie. I talked with a friend who's a motocross racer, and who did some testing with all the popular racing two stroke oils....Belray, Golden Spectro, Maxima in both 927 and Super-M, and Yamaha 2R. He claims after 5 hours of use, ALL of them gummed up the exhaust equally. Amsoil may be different, but one bad experience with any brand is all it takes to stay away from it. My '93 Mustang GT went from being leak free to developing a front AND rear main seal leak just from one oil change with Amsoil. I used to run their 100:1 synethic oil. I got tired of the hype...any brand who thinks their oil can be run at 100:1 in any pre-mix 2 stroke and be safe, has their head up their ***. Just my $.02. I have not tried this Dominator oil, so I cannot knock it...just have to burn through 2 gallons of 927 before I try it :D

[ESR250R]

Originally posted by YFZRob
Well, too late. I've got a case of it coming from RMATV. I'll clean the pipe every so often....no biggie. I talked with a friend who's a motocross racer, and who did some testing with all the popular racing two stroke oils....Belray, Golden Spectro, Maxima in both 927 and Super-M, and Yamaha 2R. He claims after 5 hours of use, ALL of them gummed up the exhaust equally. Amsoil may be different, but one bad experience with any brand is all it takes to stay away from it. My '93 Mustang GT went from being leak free to developing a front AND rear main seal leak just from one oil change with Amsoil. I used to run their 100:1 synethic oil. I got tired of the hype...any brand who thinks their oil can be run at 100:1 in any pre-mix 2 stroke and be safe, has their head up their ***. Just my $.02. I have not tried this Dominator oil, so I cannot knock it...just have to burn through 2 gallons of 927 before I try it :D


you do realize that your only supposed to put a synthetic oil in a car if you have been running it since new or near new right? thats why your car started leaking oil. dont blame amsoil for your seals being old. i run amsoil in my 03 4.3l sonoma since it was new and it hasnt leaked a drop. i am currently using super m mixed at 32 to 1 does anyone have any opinions on this oil. and how do you guys clean up your exhaust.

[YFZRob]

you do realize that your only supposed to put a synthetic oil in a car if you have been running it since new or near new right?

Please don't take this the wrong way....I don't want to get into an argument, but who told you that? Let me guess that it was Amsoil. Amsoil goes against all convensional testing and proven fact. It makes me and a LOT of engine builders wonder about that stuff.

Again, I just got done with a big pissing match on another forum, so I am sorry if I sound rude....I do not mean to be.

I had been running Mobil 1 for 15,000 miles in my Mustang before switching to the same weight Amsoil. Perfectly functioning seals became leaky seals in 1500 miles after that stuff went in. A tad to coincidental for me. This was only a 65k mile 302....far from when they usually get main seal leaks when properly maintained.

As for the Super M, I ran it for probably 20 hours of use on my KX-500 and a good 30 hours of use on my JS550. Works great. Never tore into it to see how gummy it got, but I never saw anything to give me reason to think it was getting gunky in there. It was a fairly low smoke oil.

[beerock]

Originally posted by YFZRob
Please don't take this the wrong way....I don't want to get into an argument, but who told you that? Let me guess that it was Amsoil. Amsoil goes against all convensional testing and proven fact. It makes me and a LOT of engine builders wonder about that stuff.

Again, I just got done with a big pissing match on another forum, so I am sorry if I sound rude....I do not mean to be.

I had been running Mobil 1 for 15,000 miles in my Mustang before switching to the same weight Amsoil. Perfectly functioning seals became leaky seals in 1500 miles after that stuff went in. A tad to coincidental for me. This was only a 65k mile 302....far from when they usually get main seal leaks when properly maintained.

As for the Super M, I ran it for probably 20 hours of use on my KX-500 and a good 30 hours of use on my JS550. Works great. Never tore into it to see how gummy it got, but I never saw anything to give me reason to think it was getting gunky in there. It was a fairly low smoke oil.

this is No argument this is good, but i have to tell you YOUR DEAD WRONG. and esr 250 is right, if you odnt use amsoil form the beinging in a car YOU WILL HAVE PROBLEMS.

this conversation I had is with a guy who worked R&D for honda, he told me about the 450r befor eit even came out(3 years before) he told me they had 3 variations of the 450.

anyhow here is a convo with i had with him.
see he has done test for the major oil manufacturers and knows what is best.he is one of the reasons i have switched to amsoil.

and anyone who tells you switching form one synthetic to a SUPERIOR synthetic your seals WILL leak, its due to wear the other oils did to the seals. and just to verify this even with lower quality synthetic oils if you switch from a Dino based oil to synthetic, mobil ONE for examle YOU WOULD HAVE THE SAME PROBLEMS. the reason being is the oil molecules are smaller then others. now, when you switched to amosil IT SHOWED the mobil one synthetic is INFERIOR to amsoil. THATS WHY YOUR SEALS LEAKED!!!!!!

heres the convo:
(his name was edited for obvious reasons. also, HE BEAT THE MANUFACTURERS AS A PRIVATEER at the daytons 200 for streetbikes. thats one reason he started to work for honda..

belli: Don't like Mobil One I would use Amsoil if I do. I don't really need the HP. Any way I am using regular oil in it for now
BeeRock69: why dont you like mobil one?
BeeRock69: enlighten me
BeeRock69: Mad Poodle: tell grizz I said hi
belli: Our Oil test showed it to be- not so good. Then Mobil engeneers told me I put the engine together wrong.
We shipped them an engine and they went through it. We got it back and it lasted only 120 hours and came apart - their fault.
Than our add agent told me that when they did the fire and ice ad they had to switch oil because the mobil ran from the heat.
It is better than regular oil except in propane engines- too long to explain that part but I would rarher change it oftener.
Besides i have a 14 qt oil p
BeeRock69: WOW
BeeRock69: so whatoil do you think I should run? amsoil? is it synthetic?

BeeRock69: if you dont mind me asking, what weight do you use in the drives, and what do you use in your engines for the boats?
BeeRock69: I know you use amsoil but what weights?
belli: I use 15/50 in the bikes and 75/90 in the lowerunits and ATF type F in the trans. Got to go BYE

model 250a 1.35:1
model 250b 1.61:1------
model 250c 1.89:1
model 250d 2.15:1

OMG I just wanted to add, this poll is turning into something I would see over at an atv site...

people are voting for the boat/atv they think is bad ***.

example: baja/ yamaha banshee

everyone who votes on either of the two know that most of the other boats on the list will rip it a new *******.

and on the atv side...... everyone knwos the honda 250r will rip the banshee apart, but yet still, they both usually win the poll.

why you say????

because there popular......

post:
ahhhh it could very well be that.

my exhaust leaks right at the risers.I would think the exhaust pushes that water,if it is infact leaking inside,out the exhaust.

its not really a big deal to me because I am buying gt-40 heads in the spring for the boat and I am figuring out a exhaust setup too.

I still think its the carb.

belli: The motor is much like the bike engine. I have not ridden that version yet.
To the best of my Knowlege the engine is fine with no inherent problems.
I'm signing off -hand is sore from my Carpal tunnel operation last week.

[YFZRob]

That is a good point about the oil, but I would rather use an "inferior" synthetic oil if it allows me to swap over to it without the fear of all my seals leaking! I have never spun a bearing, had premature cylinder wear, had any ounce of excessive bearing wear (on the couple motors I've torn down for upgrading, like the mustang) or discovered anything negative from dino oil as well as oils like Mobil 1.....and I push ALL of my engines in everything I own, extremely hard. I'm not saying their oil is bad, I just have my doubts and reservations because what they say and what they claim their products do is completely different from an industry-wide standard.

When it comes down to it, the majority of engine builders have no faith in synethics in general. A religious oil change interval with quality dino oil, like Valvoline, NOT QUAKER SLUDGE, will perform just as well on engine wear as synthetics. This is a belief MANY high performance engine builders have. It's when you begin to neglect oil change intervals that they believe synthetic becomes superior. I still will personally run either a Valvoline or Mobil synthetic in my cars. And I will always stay away from Quaker Sludge and Penzoil oils...synthetic or not.

[beerock]

Originally posted by YFZRob
That is a good point about the oil, but I would rather use an "inferior" synthetic oil if it allows me to swap over to it without the fear of all my seals leaking! I have never spun a bearing, had premature cylinder wear, had any ounce of excessive bearing wear (on the couple motors I've torn down for upgrading, like the mustang) or discovered anything negative from dino oil as well as oils like Mobil 1.....and I push ALL of my engines in everything I own, extremely hard. I'm not saying their oil is bad, I just have my doubts and reservations because what they say and what they claim their products do is completely different from an industry-wide standard.

When it comes down to it, the majority of engine builders have no faith in synethics in general. A religious oil change interval with quality dino oil, like Valvoline, NOT QUAKER SLUDGE, will perform just as well on engine wear as synthetics. This is a belief MANY high performance engine builders have. It's when you begin to neglect oil change intervals that they believe synthetic becomes superior. I still will personally run either a Valvoline or Mobil synthetic in my cars. And I will always stay away from Quaker Sludge and Penzoil oils...synthetic or not.

i garauntee if you check those bearings with a pair a vanier claipers against a motor with amsoil there will be MORE wear, regardless if it looks good.

second, alot fo new motors are requiring synthetic ONLY. like the new vettes.

[YFZRob]

It's not the "new" vette...the vette has come standard with Mobil 1 for well over a decade. I didn't start the argument that synthetics are bad on a new engine, so this is irrelevant.

Okay, so you see .001" of less wear on your rod and main bearings on lets say, a 100k mile motor. Did that cause the car to perform worse? Did it disable the engine? NO. Did it cost you a few hundred more in oil changes? Yes. Heck, a motor with slightly more worn bearings probably would run faster because of slightly lower oil pressure allowing less HP to be wasted on the oil pump :D.

We can go on and on beating this to death. I have never been let down by either dino oil or cheap synthetics....and 99.9% of other people don't either. If you can sleep better at night thinking your engine is better protected by Amsoil due to some study that THEY showed you, that's good. Again, I am not saying it's bad....I AM saying it's not going to save your engine over regular oils (again, when compared to proper change intervals). If I wanted to put 1,000,000 miles on my car (which I would hope no one in their right mind would), I'd consider an oil like Amsoil to run extended intervals so I don't blow $10k on oil over that time. Then, and only then, would I consider Amsoil over anything else.

[wilkin250r]

I realize the topic has evolved to an discussion about oils, but let me digress for a moment.

I'm not entirely sure which I would enjoy more showing up at my house. A mint-condition 250r, or Pamela Anderson in the buff.

*drool*

[dudeonit]

I have been running maxima super M for over 10 years @ 40:1 will no carbon, wear problems. Just make sure you use fresh fuel with a good quality oil at the oil manufacturers recommended ratios and you should be fine. And stick with it if it works. No switching around oils/ ratios.


As far as your origonal problem, I believe you should find the root cause of your top-end sputter and not try to jet it down. As you have described, it is intermittent and I suspect either seals, carb, or an electrical problem. I say this due to the fact you are at sea-level and thse engines are jetted pretty close for that elevation. I would go through your whole electrical system and clean up and ensure good positive connections. Intermttent high resistance will cause some of what you have been talking about.


These stock carbs can be tempermental and the seals do wear, dry out.

I have owned Honda 250r's since 1982 and am an engineer. The KISS method of troubleshooting will apply to most of these situations, Bob

[beerock]

Originally posted by YFZRob
It's not the "new" vette...the vette has come standard with Mobil 1 for well over a decade. I didn't start the argument that synthetics are bad on a new engine, so this is irrelevant.

Okay, so you see .001" of less wear on your rod and main bearings on lets say, a 100k mile motor. Did that cause the car to perform worse? Did it disable the engine? NO. Did it cost you a few hundred more in oil changes? Yes. Heck, a motor with slightly more worn bearings probably would run faster because of slightly lower oil pressure allowing less HP to be wasted on the oil pump :D.

We can go on and on beating this to death. I have never been let down by either dino oil or cheap synthetics....and 99.9% of other people don't either. If you can sleep better at night thinking your engine is better protected by Amsoil due to some study that THEY showed you, that's good. Again, I am not saying it's bad....I AM saying it's not going to save your engine over regular oils (again, when compared to proper change intervals). If I wanted to put 1,000,000 miles on my car (which I would hope no one in their right mind would), I'd consider an oil like Amsoil to run extended intervals so I don't blow $10k on oil over that time. Then, and only then, would I consider Amsoil over anything else.

thats your belief.

if you run your motors hard then your wearing them at an accelerated rate.
R motors are race motors and wear very fast EVERYTHING counts.

do what you want

I USE THE BEST and many pros do too. IN ANY HIGHLY STRESSED racing motor it will count.

did you not read what my buddy said about mobil one running away form the heat? IM SURE THAT LUBES WELL.:rolleyes:

and amsoil did not run the test my friend RANDY did and he scrutenizes everything. he comes from motorcycle racing and the boat racing world and those motors are more stressed then ANY form of racing.

just drop it and be happy you have a R

[YFZRob]

As far as your origonal problem, I believe you should find the root cause of your top-end sputter and not try to jet it down. As you have described, it is intermittent and I suspect either seals, carb, or an electrical problem. I say this due to the fact you are at sea-level and thse engines are jetted pretty close for that elevation. I would go through your whole electrical system and clean up and ensure good positive connections. Intermttent high resistance will cause some of what you have been talking about.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but since it cleared up for only a few very breif instances, can't it still be a rich condition from too large of a main jet? Meaning that if it's jetted slightly on the rich side, isn't it possible that under the right engine temperature and throttle usage, it can clean up just enough to run right for a short period of time? Like I mentioned, after I pulled the lid off the airbox it completely cleaned up at all RPM and throttle position. However, this was for about 5 minutes. I need to get it out some more around the neighborhood and see if it stays clean.

I am not saying that I should ignore verifying all potential problem areas, but I'd just like to think this motor is perfectly sound. Is the stator side of these motors dry? I may get around to pulling the cover off and inspecting everything in there.

Thank you!

[YFZRob]

Slight update again. I rode it from ice cold for the first time with the air box lid off. It behaved like any two stroke does when cold, just like it did originally when warm....not revving out like it should, but producing good, smooth bottom end power. After about 2 minutes of cruising around to get some more warmth in it, she hammered down like it did when I first pulled the air box lid yesterday. I kept riding for about 10 more minutes....perfect the whole time. I'm going out on Saturday for real riding to see how it performs.

[beerock]

Originally posted by YFZRob
Slight update again. I rode it from ice cold for the first time with the air box lid off. It behaved like any two stroke does when cold, just like it did originally when warm....not revving out like it should, but producing good, smooth bottom end power. After about 2 minutes of cruising around to get some more warmth in it, she hammered down like it did when I first pulled the air box lid yesterday. I kept riding for about 10 more minutes....perfect the whole time. I'm going out on Saturday for real riding to see how it performs.

you gonna pop that motor if you ride it like that man.

you have to completely warm up the motor before you go holdng the throttle wot:o

when you start the bike the idle will be slightly higher then normal, once the motor is warm you will hear the idle go down, at this point you want to ride it fairly gentle and get some more warmth in it and then ride it hard.

YOU NEED TO do PLUG CHOPS!!!

[YFZRob]

Sorry, but you misunderstood me in my reply. I wasn't out there bashing it when it was cold....and I'm kind of insulted by the suggestion :ermm: If I thought a quick reply with a basic summary of the problem wasn't going to keep the engine wear nazis off my back, I would have been more descriptive. The bike idled exactly as you stated before I even got on. This hesitation/miss at higher RPM isn't at 7500 either....it's maybe 1/2 way through the powerband. Secondly, the cylinder was very warm to the touch before I put any load on the motor. Thirdly, the hesitation occurs under load, not necessarily WOT.

I've been around 2 strokes my whole life....I'm not going to go out an "pop" a motor. Maybe I should run Amsoil to prevent that from happening??? :D :D :D :D :D J/K!

I'll be doing plug chops the second I have the time to get out in a safe off-road area, which will be this weekend.

[beerock]

sounds like your needle position, but you cant jet that until you do WOT chops once you get the main right you can play with the needle.

[joedirt]

I have raced and used Bel Ray MC1 and never had a oil related problem. Great "old technology" oil. Ran it at 50 to 1. I would run Bel Ray, Spectro, or Amsoil. too each his own though.

[YFZRob]

After riding this weekend, I'll post back the results. Thanks again everyone!

[ESR250R]

"the engine wear nazis" lol, that's too funny

[beerock]

Originally posted by ESR250R
"the engine wear nazis" lol, that's too funny

RASING RIGHT HAND!

[YFZRob]

Hahahahaha....that's good stuff! :devil: :devil:

and I missed this...

I'm not entirely sure which I would enjoy more showing up at my house. A mint-condition 250r, or Pamela Anderson in the buff.

Make it Jennifer Love Hewitt, and the 250R could have gone in the dumpster ;). But for Pamela....I think I'd enjoy the R more :rolleyes:

[JTRtrx250r]

Originally posted by joedirt
I have raced and used Bel Ray MC1 and never had a oil related problem. Great "old technology" oil. Ran it at 50 to 1. I would run Bel Ray, Spectro, or Amsoil. too each his own though. MC1 is great for A C motors for sure, use it in my FTZ FL motor

I read thru this and Rob...these guys are trying to give you some good advise, Im not gonna say anything else to try and change your mind....other than chit-can the 927, I used to be sprung on it for years myself, .......untill I finally got it, any premix will gum up if its not jetted right and you ride like a Sally, or are not jetted for your riding style/conditions

927 just makes services and replacement/repair more often. At least you dont have temps under 40 degrees in your area, other wise you'd see it sooner, most castors seperate in cold wether and require an additive which in turn can throw off the specific gravity and alter jetting to a point

but then again...to each his own I suppose LOL;) :D


And just know for the moment...YOU SUCK! Im jealous:D ;)

BTW, lets make the most of this...How about Pam or Jen in the buff ON THE R!!!!:devil:

[YFZRob]

BTW, lets make the most of this...How about Pam or Jen in the buff ON THE R!!!!

Hahahaha....good one Jeremy, but you need to replace the OR with AND :D

Thanks for the advice too. I am not trying to be stubborn and pig headed....I've just never had any bad luck with anything I've supported in this post...927 included.....maybe it's the warm FL temps that keep 927 performing well here.

Anyway, I'll use up the 4 64 oz bottles of Castor 927 I have now (which won't be long at 32:1), then go to something else. Not sure how true this is either, but I would think breathing the 927 fumes would be less harmful on your health than more traditional 2 stoke, petroleum based stuff? Just trying to find something good about 927!:rolleyes:, even though it's a lame attempt. :D

[papatrx]

I have heard if you sniff enough 927 fumes it's supposed to have the same effect as viagra....

[YFZRob]

I have heard if you sniff enough 927 fumes it's supposed to have the same effect as viagra....

Maybe that's why I like it so much!! :p Add race gas smell with it, and it's got the same effect as an overdose of viagra :eek2:

[trx310]

I have had good luck in tx with 927, MC1, and H1R, but i prefer the bel-ray over 927, I have been running it for 10 years and it has kept my motors pretty clean

[JTRtrx250r]

LOL!!:D You guys are a crack up!!:D

927 isnt horrible stuff I gotta say, I did use it for a long time, just noticed I honestly dont have to rebuild as often as I did back then and thats what got me saying

After thinking some more...Im not 100% positive its b/c Ive learned a bit more, or just slowed down just a tad haha;) :D

[Eddiesanders250]

where did you find a stock 250 in good condition. that could be worth some money someday.

[YFZRob]

Right place, right time I suppose. I've always been looking for a bone stock 88-89 R and never found one in the condition I was looking for. I pretty much gave up on the idea over a year ago. Well, I was bored one afternoon and began surfing the ATV Trader online and came across it. The photo was the one taken by the cycle trader company, so it wasn't very clear, but the decription described it well. He was up in Michigan, so I wasn't going to just drive up and get it (from FL), so after a couple of discussions with him on the phone, I decided to send a cashiers check and schedule a shipment.


I had fun with it this weekend....as fun as you can have on a stock motor. In the dirt/sand, the R goes no where fast from a stop. I could only muster 57 mph out of it on a couple long smooth areas. But, the 12 tooth front sprocket probably was responsible for the low top speed and the excessive spinning tires from a stop. On the WOT plug chops I did, everything was perfect. A nice light brown color on the plug.

This was on Saturday. 5 hours of work on Sunday got the ESR 310 kit installed. I'm in the process of breaking it in, but the few times I have ridden it softly around the neighborhood.....it's insane. Lack of traction is the only way this thing won't be faster than my YFZ.

Here's a photo of the swapped top end...

http://www.looseboltsmotorsports.com/images/atv/310Swap8.JPG

http://www.looseboltsmotorsports.com/images/atv/310Swap9.JPG

[JTRtrx250r]

Smokin'!:cool: Topend looks swesome!

Its amazing what you can learn from a stock R, I see 2 stock peices that Ive never seen before:o :D

[YFZRob]

Its amazing what you can learn from a stock R, I see 2 stock peices that Ive never seen before

Let me guess....

1. Case saver/chain guard?
2. Kick starter
3. Belly skid

Did I get the 2 right?

Also, I discovered some disappointing info. Check out this photo.....
http://www.looseboltsmotorsports.com/images/atv/310Swap2.JPG

The piston that came out of it does NOT look like the stock slug. The virtually carbon free piston had non-factory looking marks engraved on the top. "0.50MM" then "562P2", then down off centered is "X". The 0.50mm sounds like a .5mm over piston. Sound about right? The owner claimed the motor was all original, on the original hone/piston. Anyway, I'm not too diappointed...the rest of the quad is as good as it gets.

[JTRtrx250r]

Its dissapointing when ppl aren't as honest as they claim to be, but I wouldn't worry too much about it either

The 2 parts are the rubber tank mount things(Ive never had them:o ) and that little radiator hose holder thingamajobber:D

Cant say Ive seen the engine skid black either, looks good!:D

If you could have seen my R when I first go it...you'd understand:o :ermm:

Btw, hope you dont mind, but I HAD to save a few pics of your R, I think the Smithsonian(sp) would be impressed haha:D

[YFZRob]

Btw, hope you dont mind, but I HAD to save a few pics of your R, I think the Smithsonian(sp) would be impressed haha

Yeah....I've gotten a few requests to donate the quad to a museum :D

I really struck out on the guesses there. I think the radiator hose holder you are referring to is the front fender mount, that serves as a hose holder/supporter as well, unless you're referring to something else. The rubber straps were cool. There are two of them on the left side that hold all the factory wires and throttle cable. I was shocked they weren't cracking or worn....they looked brand new.

I am guessing the seller assumed I'd never pull the motor apart anytime soon to discover a non-stock slug. So, I have discovered, since delivery, the following parts are non-stock or non-original....
1. K&N filter
2. piston and hone on jug
3. front fender decals are not original
4. rear fender decal number plates are not original
5. wheels are from a Z400 along with the tires
6. Front sprocket.
7. rear grab bar is a new OE replacement (unless you can go 17 years without getting one scratch on it)
8. The front bumper has been powder coated
9. High wear areas of frame were touched up, as well as the flywheel cover, chain guard, and stock pipe heat shield.

That's about it. No biggie for something 17 years old.

[lil400exman]

Originally posted by YFZRob
So, I have discovered, since delivery, the following parts are non-stock or non-original....
1. K&N filter
2. piston and hone on jug
3. front fender decals are not original
4. rear fender decal number plates are not original
5. wheels are from a Z400 along with the tires
6. Front sprocket.
7. rear grab bar is a new OE replacement (unless you can go 17 years without getting one scratch on it)
8. The front bumper has been powder coated
9. High wear areas of frame were touched up, as well as the flywheel cover, chain guard, and stock pipe heat shield.

That's about it. No biggie for something 17 years old.

Well lets see the things that are still original:
1. No
2.No
3. Yes. Honda had these stock. Look at the pic in your factory manual. This was for 88-89 only.
4.same as above.
5.correct
6.correct. 13 tooth is stock.
7. Cant tell. too individual.
8. Still dont know! HAHHAHA
9. Thats usual with any quad/bike. Even the best have em.

And Jeremy- The rubber frame guards are readily available on ebay for about 15 bucks. There are a two on my 88. I put a thin film of vaseline on them to help keep it in good shape.

And yes I think your skid plate was PC'ed black too rob. I have never seen a OEM black one in all my R ridin days!:macho

[YFZRob]

Acutally, the swing arm skid plate was completely original. It needed some straightening and touching up. The belly skid on the 88/89 is plastic, and that is original.

I improperly stated about the decals.....they are OEM replacements, but not originals. You can see where some of the old original deal underneath wasn't fully removed in certain areas.

[2StrokeFreak]

I improperly stated about the decals.....they are OEM replacements, but not originals. You can see where some of the old original deal underneath wasn't fully removed in certain areas. [/B][/QUOTE]

Did that bastage apply new decals over old ones without cleaning the plastic first?

He's got somone that's printing decals for him. Look at the rat 86
he has on trader now. Fresh decals.

[YFZRob]

Ah, that's probably why they didn't line up perfectly over the old ones. I don't know if he didn't remove them, or it's just an outline from the shadow of the old ones, but you can see the outline of the old decal. :mad: