TRX450R Head Volume (cc's) [Archive]

29FTEX

01-02-2005, 09:52 PM

On my 450R alone, I have had a 13.8:1 stock bore piston, a 99mm 500cc 12:1 piston, a 99mm 13.5:1 500cc piston, and now have the nmotion 520. I had done all of the wrenching myself, except for all of the head work. I have done plenty of experimenting, spent plenty of money, and offered all of what I have done to another site, not here. I'm no engine builder, and don't brag to be. I shouldn't have to explain myself to any of chad's cronies (you), nor does anyone else who replies to his bogus info. My credentials aren't the ones in question.

Chad turned the 450R section on this site into his own personal "look at me". What was he building that he offered enough info to everyone on here to do it themselves? How much for the parts and where to get everything. He bought a 2 off jug. If he was so helpful, why not ask around to see if someone esle would like to get in and reduce the cost. You obviously picked a self-serving person to follow. He may still come back here and say, "look at what I finally put together". Are you going to be helped in any way by that? It's all for the oooh aaah factor, not to enlighten or help anyone else.

He's been into it with a couple of engine builders, a pipe manufacturer or two, and several people who know more than him, because he doesn't know what he's talking about. He can blow smoke, and you've obviously have been blinded. He would lurk around other forums to take links and info and put it over here to act like he found it. He browsed these forums anonymously so no one could see if he was on-line. Why? What's there to hide?

Close this thread and be done with it. Delete this if you want.

01-02-2005, 10:02 PM

Whats the history with this guy?:confused:

mikes450r

01-02-2005, 11:10 PM

hey 29ftex which one of your set ups did you like the most..

WhiteZee

01-03-2005, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by 29FTEX
On my 450R alone, I have had a 13.8:1 stock bore piston, a 99mm 500cc 12:1 piston, a 99mm 13.5:1 500cc piston, and now have the nmotion 520. I had done all of the wrenching myself, except for all of the head work. I have done plenty of experimenting, spent plenty of money, and offered all of what I have done to another site, not here. I'm no engine builder, and don't brag to be. I shouldn't have to explain myself to any of chad's cronies (you), nor does anyone else who replies to his bogus info. My credentials aren't the ones in question.

Chad turned the 450R section on this site into his own personal "look at me". What was he building that he offered enough info to everyone on here to do it themselves? How much for the parts and where to get everything. He bought a 2 off jug. If he was so helpful, why not ask around to see if someone esle would like to get in and reduce the cost. You obviously picked a self-serving person to follow. He may still come back here and say, "look at what I finally put together". Are you going to be helped in any way by that? It's all for the oooh aaah factor, not to enlighten or help anyone else.

He's been into it with a couple of engine builders, a pipe manufacturer or two, and several people who know more than him, because he doesn't know what he's talking about. He can blow smoke, and you've obviously have been blinded. He would lurk around other forums to take links and info and put it over here to act like he found it. He browsed these forums anonymously so no one could see if he was on-line. Why? What's there to hide?

Close this thread and be done with it. Delete this if you want.
well said.

kazpr

01-03-2005, 06:16 AM

I can say chad has always been about look @ me. 29 and a few others have done ALOT of hardcore testing.

Luckily for me I have become good friends with Johnny Hale and he has alot of experience with the pros that race 450r's and has saved me alot of time and money.

So with Jh's, redracer44 and a few others I have learned so very much and I thank them all for the hard work and testing.
My wife thanks them also for saving me alot of money also :)

trx440

01-03-2005, 08:19 AM

I remember when Chad502 and Chad500[?] [from Texas] went at it for like a year or something, in the Great Look At Me Shootout.

"I'm the real Chad, I am bigger and faster"!; "No, I am!"; " Uh-uh, I am"; "No-no-no, I am"; Yada, Yada, Yada.

Chad502ex and 14mins, seperated at birth.

kgbg

01-03-2005, 09:01 AM

Coalrooster, err Chad,
Funny you jump in here right when Chad disappears.
I do not know the things that the others who have put Chad in his place, but I know enough to know that Chad's motives are not in the best iunterests of anyone but himself.
:p
Well said 29, Kazpr and TRX440.
Happy New Year, back to the org

dn1911

01-03-2005, 09:49 AM

sometimes i wonder why i ever venture away from home in the first place!:D

29FTEX

01-03-2005, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by mikes450r
hey 29ftex which one of your set ups did you like the most..

So far, my pick would be the 99mm 500cc set up with the 13.5:1 piston. Although it didn't last, it was by far the hottest set up so far. Lots of torque and hp. I am looking into an aftermarket cylinder maker to get a thicker cylinder wall. Too thin of a wall, high pressure and heat caused it's failure. Not ruling out a bad bore either.

That was the one I've liked so far. However, KGB is ordering me and some others a 97mm (480cc) 14:1 pistons. I think this will be the ultimate set up with the right porting and oversize valve configuration.

kgbg

01-03-2005, 12:36 PM

29,
I must agree my 13.5: 99 was a mean mother before mine did the same. To be honest it was a mean mother even with a cracked cyl. I was out running the very fast YFZ's that I outweighed by 60 lbs by 1/3 the hill (blowing smoke and oil the whole time....lol).
I am in the process of figureing out how to sleve the stocker, with a alum. sleve, so we can run this without having any worries about bad bores, castings, or thin walls with too much comp.
The 480 will be a runner for sure. I wish I was going to have it by FSW, oh well.

mikes450r

01-03-2005, 12:41 PM

hey 29 and kgb let me know if your going in on some pistons...i would like to get one also...i have been waiting for sparks for about 7 months now...Hes in my home town so i was just going to go with him..But i tired of waiting so if you guys and any suggestions on port work let me know..and also let me know about these pistons....thanks mike..

mikes450r

01-03-2005, 03:01 PM

hey kgb your pms are full....So that includes everything i would need right...Is there anything else i would have to do upon getting this piston...right now i have full sparks exaust and sparks cam..I read something about over sized valves..what all would you recommend on doing if i get this piston..thanks for your time...mike

mikes450r

01-03-2005, 04:45 PM

alright....thanks

29FTEX

01-04-2005, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by kgbg
Coalrooster, err Chad,
Funny you jump in here right when Chad disappears.
I do not know the things that the others who have put Chad in his place, but I know enough to know that Chad's motives are not in the best iunterests of anyone but himself.
:p
Well said 29, Kazpr and TRX440.
Happy New Year, back to the org

That's good KGB. I noticed that chad's profile has a b-day of Jan 24 and coalrooster is Jan 24 1970. It will probably be changed once he sees this, but everyone will know what they're dealing with. Chad leaves, coalrooster signs up. Multiple user names by the same person. Are you that ashamed?

kazpr

01-04-2005, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by dn1911
sometimes i wonder why i ever venture away from home in the first place!:D
I think a admin needs to lock this thread before it gets any uglier!!

29FTEX

01-04-2005, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by mikes450r
hey kgb your pms are full....So that includes everything i would need right...Is there anything else i would have to do upon getting this piston...right now i have full sparks exaust and sparks cam..I read something about over sized valves..what all would you recommend on doing if i get this piston..thanks for your time...mike

mike, if KGB already has ordered the pistons, there may be a person or two who ends up wanting to sell theirs. We'll keep in touch if that's the case.
With a 480 set up, you could benefit from either going to a +1mm exhaust only, or +1mm intake/+2mm exhaust set up. I wouldn't recommend the +2/+3 unless you plan to go with a bigger bore. It would flow enough for you with those two options.
Of course with that much compression, you could go to a more radical cam as well. That's when the overlap will really come into play with the valve size and porting you choose.

dn1911

01-04-2005, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by kazpr
I think a admin needs to lock this thread before it gets any uglier!!

i spend just as much time here as i do anywere alse. just messin around.

chad502ex

01-04-2005, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by 29FTEX
That's good KGB. I noticed that chad's profile has a b-day of Jan 24 and coalrooster is Jan 24 1970. It will probably be changed once he sees this, but everyone will know what they're dealing with. Chad leaves, coalrooster signs up. Multiple user names by the same person. Are you that ashamed?

ashamed? never- I am who I am and do not lose any sleep from what ppl think of me on forums. Absolutely no one knows me personally nor do I want to know you four personally. I don't ask of anyones acceptance here especially from any of the ppl here attacking me. I know all your issues about me stems from my history of exchanges and how I "present" myself, but if it makes YOU feel better to point out my faults EVERYDAY that's kewl with me- I know I'm far from perfect! And really, who isn't in it for themselves- you 29, you kgb, you Zee, you kaspr- BS! That is why we all are here so we can collect and gather information from each other to apply for ourselves. Self-centered- yes, and so is everyone here. If you deny that then you should be with some charitable organization and not posting in ATV threads. we all get something out of these forums. Some post to make personal contact, some for racing, some for engine build, but the bottom line is that it's all for personal selfish reasons. so now, take a look at yourselves calling me self-centered. I see all of you on the "other forum" nodding your head yes everyday from someone who has their hands in your wallet. i have read all the over-bore failures you've had too, so don't criticise my success on my builds when the four of you seems to be "spending lots of money too" trying to get equal success. Is my hands in your wallet- no; so how is the information i post for selfish reasons? Ya see, with all the personal attacks you put out, the four of you have never said that you could produce something equal. If you think you can, then why don't you enlighten us all how and when you'll get done. Maybe I should start closing up my porting with epoxy so I can squeeze out a few ounces of hp. Naa no thanks I'll just stick with my bore/stroking that produces tuns more. That concept has worked for many many years on many many engines. Velocity porting is what manufactures are concerned with and no one person here on these forums or others should be recuiting ppl to try this technique at home. talk'n about a waste of time and money

The real truth of the matter is that I voluntarily asked Harlen to change my username so I could put the chad502ex bashing on ATVRIDERS to rest mainly because of the attacks he was getting over at .org. because of the his somewhat connection with me. Was that selfish? What did Harlen ever do to anyone to get the criticism he did over there?

I see your four over at the other forum almost everyday slamming ATVRIDERS "kiddish" and "uninformed" posting, but then you come over in the same day and post yourselves in the manner at which you describe over there; what does that make you?

but enough already, it's not that I don't disagree with you on what you say about me, I certainly agree with close to all of them. Who said that I was perfect? It's funny though, look at my threads and all of them have gobs of readers viewing them for the information, pictures or drama that i upload. Even if the information I post is related to my custom build that no one can get (which most of the time it isn't and can be applied to any engine), maybe someone may realize with the information I post what or what not to do on thier next build. Isn't that what it's about?

Don't worry though, when I asked Harlen to change my username, I knew that there might be someone other than me who would lose out. again selfish? what is your definition of selfish again so I can understand further the meaning? Better yet, don't explain anything to me cause I might twist everything into some "selfish" gratification.

One more thing to the mods deleting threads "for the good of the site",.... Why is it when I type these harse truthful defensive words the thread is almost deleted immediately, but when I start an informative thread and for weeks on end I am attacked the post remains? I sure hope everyone gets a chance to see how these ppl acted. I've admitted all of my behavior patterns but they never do wrong

kazpr

01-04-2005, 11:39 AM

4 I hope you do not mean me. I LOVE this site and never said anything bad about you or harlen. Harlen actually seems like a very cool likeable dood.

I only based my saying you seemed like a look @ me person was on the .org of you asking for a vp pipe.
I respect what you have done on your bike and the way you came on here and fessed up about the other username.

Shoot I am just some old man with more money than knowledge of all this motor work that is why JH Racing is doing all my work as we speak :)

But I do hope you continue to post on here as you do have alot of knowledge and NO WAY would I ever tear my motor apart like you did :)
Peace.

Jersey450R

01-04-2005, 11:48 AM

umm, I do have tissues over here if you 2 want any. :o

chad502ex

01-04-2005, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by kazpr
4 I hope you do not mean me. I LOVE this site and never said anything bad about you or harlen. Harlen actually seems like a very cool likeable dood.

I only based my saying you seemed like a look @ me person was on the .org of you asking for a vp pipe.
I respect what you have done on your bike and the way you came on here and fessed up about the other username.

Shoot I am just some old man with more money than knowledge of all this motor work that is why JH Racing is doing all my work as we speak :)

But I do hope you continue to post on here as you do have alot of knowledge and NO WAY would I ever tear my motor apart like you did :)
Peace.

i apoligize then, i misunderstood you.

thanks for your clarification.

chad502ex

01-04-2005, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by Jersey450R
umm, I do have tissues over here if you 2 want any. :o

what are them with me jersey?

kazpr

01-04-2005, 12:03 PM

Jersey do not be stirring up stuff just to raise your post count :)

kgbg

01-04-2005, 01:28 PM

First I respect Harlen very much and I appreciate what he does, but :Harlen got what he did because he did the same thing you did, asked for a pipe (except he forgot that Mixxer offered him one a long time ago, and he ignored him) and did not get it, so he got big chested and said almost the EXACT same things you did, "I could dyno it in REAL time, no BS ect..."

EDIT: I don't know enough about this stiuation to say, what it sounded like I said. There are two sides to every story, sometimes three. From what I know Harlen, as well as VCP deserves the benefit of the doubt. sorry. Harlen did not ask me to write this, and I respect him for that too.

Of course I am in it for myself (other wise I would be in the Peace Corps), but others too, why else would I give my cost on pistons, order $ thousnads worth of parts with no deposit, and then when I had a problem tell EVERYONE ASAP. I even got a cut on my second run ,and passed that along. I wa able to sell pistons, and head gaskets cheaper than Sparks with no gaskets, so back off that statement a little.

Who has their hand in my wallett? My wife maybe, but other than that, nada. Definetly not VCP, if thats what you are illuding to.

This site is childish (not all the time or all the threads, but overwhelmingly, yes), and I feel childish getting involved in this stuff, but sometines its kind of fun to be childish.:p

Look I don't want you to think I am out to run you through the mud, I am not. I applaud you and your big engine, your site its info. You just need to remember the street goes two ways. I will try to as well.

29FTEX

01-04-2005, 01:31 PM

I never said you were selfish, just self-serving and egotistical. Here are a couple of your recent remarks.

" the four of you have never said that you could produce something equal. If you think you can, then why don't you enlighten us all how and when you'll get done."

There you go again assuming that everyone is trying to out-build you. Your ego gets in the way of probably a pretty intelligent person. Plenty has been posted on our builds, good or bad.

"It's funny though, look at my threads and all of them have gobs of readers viewing them for the information, pictures or drama that i upload."

Ego-serving. You're the man. Everyone bow.

Your entire build could have made for an excellent tech article when completed, but not now. You built up the drama, then shied away at the end of it because of your planning.

Why did you not come on here and post your failure on your build on the 550R? Ego-deflation? Sure it is a 530 now, but school everyone on why it didn't work. Don't just post a link to your site.

I display my successes and acknowledge my failures for others to see. How helpful is that to anyone else who thought of going that route? Yes, I've spent plenty of money, I admit, but I love doing what I do. I will continue to seek out what makes ME happy, and that doesn't involve chad in any way. So, get that crazy mode of thinking out of your head.

I do not know Harlen, and haven't said anything about him, just you. I apologize to Harlen what this has become, but definitely not chad. He takes way too much pride in some others failures. He's your leader (as he sees it). Don't try to out-build him.

Edit:
You discount someone epoxying their head, but someone has the nutz to try it. By the way people, the info on how to do it is from the link chad stole from .org telling everyone to check out.

Sorry again, Harlen.

chad502ex

01-04-2005, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by kgbg
First I respect Harlen very much and I appreciate what he does, but :Harlen got what he did because he did the same thing you did, asked for a pipe (except he forgot that Mixxer offered him one a long time ago, and he ignored him) and did not get it, so he got big chested and said almost the EXACT same things you did, "I could dyno it in REAL time, no BS ect..."

Of course I am in it for myself (other wise I would be in the Peace Corps), but others too, why else would I give my cost on pistons, order $ thousnads worth of parts with no deposit, and then when I had a problem tell EVERYONE ASAP. I even got a cut on my second run ,and passed that along. I wa able to sell pistons, and head gaskets cheaper than Sparks with no gaskets, so back off that statement a little.

Who has their hand in my wallett? My wife maybe, but other than that, nada. Definetly not VCP, if thats what you are illuding to.

This site is childish (not all the time or all the threads, but overwhelmingly, yes), and I feel childish getting involved in this stuff, but sometines its kind of fun to be childish.:p

Look I don't want you to think I am out to run you through the mud, I am not. I applaud you and your big engine, your site its info. You just need to remember the street goes two ways. I will try to as well.

ok agreed on first paragraph.

kudos for you being standup guy on the 99mm piston issue in your second paragraph.

lol third para.

i'm kid at heart too on fourth para.

thanks Kam on last paragraph.

Bad Habit

01-04-2005, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by chad502ex
Maybe I should start closing up my porting with epoxy so I can squeeze out a few ounces of hp. Naa no thanks I'll just stick with my bore/stroking that produces tuns more. That concept has worked for many many years on many many engines. Velocity porting is what manufactures are concerned with and no one person here on these forums or others should be recuiting ppl to try this technique at home. talk'n about a waste of time and money

Hey that's me that's trying this!:D So I feel that I need to respond.

First off, you admittedly have not tried high velocity porting, so how can you state as fact that your build will produce more? Again Chad, it's what everyone is trying to tell you but you are not listening. You have this need to claim that you know better, even when you have no first hand experience with what you are discounting.

Do I know that high velocity porting will work in our application? Nope I sure don't, BECAUSE IT HASN'T BEEN TRIED, at least not publicly. If it doesn't work, you better believe that I will be telling everyone so they can learn from my findings. I'm not going to disappear if the direction that I have been going does not work.

Even though you keep referring to it, no one that I know of has an agenda to one-up what you are doing. Some of us are merely trying a different route than you and it's you that keeps discounting what others are doing if they are not following your recipe.

As a final thought, I wish to see an end to any and all remarks about "you over there" and "us over here". That is not what any of this is about and it is ridiculous for it to turn into that. ATVRiders is a great place and Harlen & staff have done and will continue to do an outstanding job running things, just as we will continue to do at "the other place".

chad502ex

01-04-2005, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by 29FTEX
I never said you were selfish, just self-serving and egotistical. Here are a couple of your recent remarks.

" the four of you have never said that you could produce something equal. If you think you can, then why don't you enlighten us all how and when you'll get done."

There you go again assuming that everyone is trying to out-build you. Your ego gets in the way of probably a pretty intelligent person. Plenty has been posted on our builds, good or bad.

I see your point here. This is not what i meant. I meant that you were continuously slamming my ability to build solid machines. I was saying that if you can do better, enlighten us all cause I would be interested in learning more.

"It's funny though, look at my threads and all of them have gobs of readers viewing them for the information, pictures or drama that i upload."

Ego-serving. You're the man. Everyone bow.

screw this.

Your entire build could have made for an excellent tech article when completed, but not now. You built up the drama, then shied away at the end of it because of your planning.

Why did you not come on here and post your failure on your build on the 550R? Ego-deflation? Sure it is a 530 now, but school everyone on why it didn't work. Don't just post a link to your site.

ego deflation no. I didn't have to announce the 550r to 530r reduction to anyone, but i was forthcoming and honest and Gabe was the first to know of this privately through PM. I did not have to tell anyone of this and could have kept a secret, but i didn't. even after a few weeks ago after Gabe ripped me a new one i didn't have to tell him about the change. Why Gabe indicated to me that he would keep it a secret is beyond me because i'm certainly not deflated or trying to keep any secrets about it. If anything i'm at ease cause i don't have to strain over making it work. Believe me a +6mm can work. Falicon can squeeze 5.6mm as a drop in so why wouldn't you think i couldn't squeeze in a +6mm? The fact is that you can squeeze a +6mm into the cases using a relax cam chain that has been stretched already and a +2mm taller NMotion jug, but it would also take a little case modifications.

I display my successes and acknowledge my failures for others to see. How helpful is that to anyone else who thought of going that route? Yes, I've spent plenty of money, I admit, but I love doing what I do. I will continue to seek out what makes ME happy, and that doesn't involve chad in any way. So, get that crazy mode of thinking out of your head.

how many times can you or i say "I" in one paragraph? heh.

I do not know Harlen, and haven't said anything about him, just you. I apologize to Harlen what this has become, but definitely not chad. He takes way too much pride in some others failures. He's your leader (as he sees it). Don't try to out-build him.

whatever! when you attack me i get defensive and say slams about you. i see us taking the time to work things out tho! we can agree to disagree

Edit:
You discount someone epoxying their head, but someone has the nutz to try it. By the way people, the info on how to do it is from the link chad stole from .org telling everyone to check out.

stole? i thought information posted on forums are for public. Oh, sorry this isn't the case for me cause i have to "snoop" over there to see posted information since i've been banned for the way i present myself and include myself on topics. But honestly, I think its nuts cause of the gain you folks are trying to obtain is minute' compared to proven techniques to obtain power like bore and stroking. so many ppl shy away from doing bottom end work cause they fear changing reliability- that's crap if you build a sound stroker in the first place. to each his own, if you want to epoxy so be it, but i don't want to hear crap like "chad is trying to out bore everyone" or "chad500000000000002ex"

Sorry again, Harlen.

chad502ex

01-04-2005, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by Bad Habit
Hey that's me that's trying this!:D So I feel that I need to respond.

First off, you admittedly have not tried high velocity porting, so how can you state as fact that your build will produce more? Again Chad, it's what everyone is trying to tell you but you are not listening. You have this need to claim that you know better, even when you have no first hand experience with what you are discounting.

ok i understand you here. my point is that ppl should not be trying this technique at home and that they can obtain more gain with a little more money without filling up the ports with epoxy. I agree with the theory behind this technique, but all i'm trying to say is that is it not worth all the effort over the gain you'll get. Let's just say that you get 30% gain over piston and port and flow, are you saying that with epoxy porting you'll get significant gain over 30%? I say rubbish on the 450r head. what concerns me about epoxy porting on the 450r is that you fill the bottom side of the port with goop and change the intake attack angle drastically. the velocity would increase but the head no longer has a 11 degree valve angle Honda setup. with the epoxy the mixture has to overcome that drastic bend. good luck on this. One other comment, are you aware of the vortexing of the mixture that occurs inside of the cylinder? Honda spends a great deal of effort to vortex in the cylinder, trying to improve that would be extremely difficult for the average "garage" mechanic (like me) to try. Again good luck. we hope you have success

As a final thought, I wish to see an end to any and all remarks about "you over there" and "us over here". That is not what any of this is about and it is ridiculous for it to turn into that. ATVRiders is a great place and Harlen & staff have done and will continue to do an outstanding job running things, just as we will continue to do at "the other place".

I agree with your closing 110%! the thing is i think we can exchange dialog to and fro but we have to start somewhere and open the lines of communication, right?

chad502ex

01-04-2005, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by trx440
I remember when Chad502 and Chad500[?] [from Texas] went at it for like a year or something, in the Great Look At Me Shootout.

"I'm the real Chad, I am bigger and faster"!; "No, I am!"; " Uh-uh, I am"; "No-no-no, I am"; Yada, Yada, Yada.

Chad502ex and 14mins, seperated at birth.

wow great memory. we must have really made a scene for you to remember that far back. anyway, i'm not proud of everything i do or say and i know how to admit it too!

86atc250r

01-04-2005, 05:23 PM

Why Gabe indicated to me that he would keep it a secret is beyond me because i'm certainly not deflated or trying to keep any secrets about it.

When you PM'd me I got a clear feeling that you weren't ready to tell everyone yet - which I still assume is why you told me in a PM instead of telling the world via a post.

So --- As I said in my post that "ripped you a new one", I don't hold grudges against anyone -- I thought I'd respect your reasons (whatever they may have been) for not disclosing it to anyone at that point in time.

ok i understand you here. my point is that ppl should not be trying this technique at home and that they can obtain more gain with a little more money without filling up the ports with epoxy.

And why not? Epoxy work is fairly common in both two and four stroke porting.

Anyone reading about this and daring to embark on such a venture is well aware that their results may lead to success or failure.

Just because *you* have a feeling that it might not be a good idea for reasons you can't really detail due to lack of experience does not make it something that unequivocally should not be performed.

There's a lot more to building a top performing engine than throwing a big piston, a big crank, and a big cam in it. Building a top performing engine is all about details and things working together for a desired outcome.

What this all boils down to, Chad is that you still don't seem to have a clear understanding of why your posting personality drums up flames.

Surely you understand by now that there's something about the way that you post that rubs people the wrong way.

Here are the details:

You attempt to demean people that are doing something differently than you are -- most of the time with no hard data as to why what it is that they are doing is wrong other than some opinions and wild guesses - presented as fact.

You seem to think that everyone's in a race to build an engine "better" than yours - this has come up several times now... ---- Here's something to think about on that one --- My 400EX engine that develops upper 30's HP is far "better" than yours for it's application - but I'm willing to bet that your engine is "better" than it for your application. Also remember that none of us here had you even in the backs of our minds when we've built any of our engines. Another thing to always remember in any context - "Better" is a very relative term.

You seem to take pride in other's failure, even when their only reason for posting about their failure is to help others.

You seldom post of your own failure.

As mentioned before - you post almost strictly in a "LOOK AT ME" manner.

You assume others are on these boards for "selfish or selfserving" motives --- that may be true for some, but some of us are on these boards to both learn and share. Some of us take pride in and enjoy helping others. The reason many of us are here is because we love engines, we love riding, and we love sharing information that helps with something else we love - making our rides faster & handle better.

A lot of people have gotten a bad taste in their mouth for a lot of things you've done over the last several years. A recent example is when you asked for a pipe from VCP and when turned down, immediately turned very sour towards them.

That was all out in the public and we all saw it very plainly. We've all seen you get into it with various other parties over the years and it's been a continuous string. It likely won't stop until you realize the errors of your ways & apparently it's taking some of us to detail it out for you.

I hope you don't take this post as an opportunity to write a big backlash post as you have so far in this thread, but take it to heart as constructive criticism - that's how it's intended.

Bad Habit

01-04-2005, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by chad502ex
my point is that ppl should not be trying this technique at home
While I'll agree this is not necessarily something that everybody should try, that does not exclude it from being tried by people that understand the techniques needed and what the end results include.

and that they can obtain more gain with a little more money without filling up the ports with epoxy. I agree with the theory behind this technique, but all i'm trying to say is that is it not worth all the effort over the gain you'll get.
Money needed to do this type of port work would be under $20, so this is not an issue. As far as effort needed, it would take approximately 3 additional hours over a "standard" port job....not much of a time investment there.

Let's just say that you get 30% gain over piston and port and flow, are you saying that with epoxy porting you'll get significant gain over 30%? I say rubbish on the 450r head.
I don't yet know what the gains are going to be, just like you don't know what the gains for it will be, so you cannot casually discount this as a waste of time and effort on a guess. What are the gains for adding a stroked crank over your 30% piston/port/flow example? I'll answer, you don't know yet because it has not been done. So I'll pose the question to you.....Is the effort and money involved with a stroked crank worth the gain you will get?

what concerns me about epoxy porting on the 450r is that you fill the bottom side of the port with goop and change the intake attack angle drastically. the velocity would increase but the head no longer has a 11 degree valve angle Honda setup. with the epoxy the mixture has to overcome that drastic bend.
Correct on the first part...the incoming charge will be coming down more perpendicular on the valve, and this is good. I have not changed the valve angle, that would require moving the valve guides and seats. The valve angle is important in it's relevance to the combustion chamber and piston face. Correct again on the mixture having to overcome the drastic bend. The inside of the bend creates a pressure differential, this differential is one of the key ingredients in accelerating the incoming charge.

One other comment, are you aware of the vortexing of the mixture that occurs inside of the cylinder? Honda spends a great deal of effort to vortex in the cylinder, trying to improve that would be extremely difficult for the average "garage" mechanic (like me) to try.
Vortexing? What do you think happens to these vortices when the charge is accelerated? Will they be improved? Again, I don't know, only time and testing will tell.

Again good luck. we hope you have success
If this is genuine (and I sincerely hope it is) I give you my thanks. And I also wish you much success with the goals that you are trying to obtain.

chad502ex

01-04-2005, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by Bad Habit
While I'll agree this is not necessarily something that everybody should try, that does not exclude it from being tried by people that understand the techniques needed and what the end results include.

Thank you for agreeing that it isn't something everyone should try. That's what i meant the whole time. and yes, experiments should be tried by experienced ppl- agreed.

I don't yet know what the gains are going to be, just like you don't know what the gains for it will be, so you cannot casually discount this as a waste of time and effort on a guess. What are the gains for adding a stroked crank over your 30% piston/port/flow example? I'll answer, you don't know yet because it has not been done. So I'll pose the question to you.....Is the effort and money involved with a stroked crank worth the gain you will get?

i would hope so cause i've spent it! lol- just funn'n. seriously here, this is what i meant, compare:
piston, epoxy port/flow work to
piston, regular port/flow work and stroke

no question here which would produce more power but to predict the actual gain in percentage- it was only an example.

If this is genuine (and I sincerely hope it is) I give you my thanks. And I also wish you much success with the goals that you are trying to obtain.

It was genuine. I like to see success too and i don't pride myself on failures of others either as Gabe suggest unless that person has dragged me through the mud and back. That is why i refuse to rebute anything Gabe says cause he has posted the same lengthy lines twice in row on two seperate threads about me- so it must be true. And I wasn't even addressing him anymore. Seems like there is only one channel opened with Gabe and I since I can no longer participate in his website or email forums,.. what gives? How long do you ppl condenm me for my sins? I guess i have to remain in pergatory until Gabe says. :confused: quite honestly, i see communicating occuring with everyone except him cause even when you get biten it's human nature to try to make mends.

BH since you are the only person that i've been having any luck at communicating with lately, why is it that when i post something ppl get so passionite over what i'm saying? to me passionate means that the information presented hits a nerve deep down that they feel that the information is most likely true but they refuse to believe it- conflict of feelings right?. i have to tell you BH, you seem to be the smartest person on these forums here and there and that's no suck up either. I like the way you "present" your information, very clean without an outporing of passion. Always well said. thanks for your ear so to speak

:cool:

chad502ex

mikes450r

01-04-2005, 08:31 PM

this is like a soap opra...."days of our lives"

86atc250r

01-04-2005, 08:40 PM

And I wasn't even addressing him anymore.

Actually, you did & I qouted it in the message.

How long do you ppl condenm me for my sins? I guess i have to remain in pergatory until Gabe says. quite honestly, i see communicating occuring with everyone except him cause even when you get biten it's human nature to try to make mends.

Chad -- like anything else in life, you just have to communicate.

If you feel you can be a valued member of a website from which you've previously been "banned" - all you have to do is e-mail (or otherwise contact) those in charge and explain your case - personal contact and communication can mend a lot of fences...

I'm quite certain that if you express that you can be responsible with your posting privledges & you acknowledge the errors of past, that your membership can be re-instated. You'll have to talk to Luke and Dez on that one though.

If that's the case, I will also reinstate your membership on the e-mail lists. I originally removed you from there due to some of what went down immediately after you were banned from dot org & I didn't want it to spill over onto the e-mail lists.

chad502ex

01-04-2005, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by mikes450r
this is like a soap opra...."days of our lives"

lol, i think so too. excluding the drama, I'd say that this thread has really given the readers some valuable information on different engine building techniques (i.e. CC's of trx450r head and epoxy porting and such)

kazpr

01-04-2005, 09:00 PM

Good info! :) That is what both boards are for. VERY glad to see everyone kiss and make up :)

chad502ex

01-04-2005, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by 86atc250r
Actually, you did & I qouted it in the message.

Chad -- like anything else in life, you just have to communicate.

If you feel you can be a valued member of a website from which you've previously been "banned" - all you have to do is e-mail (or otherwise contact) those in charge and explain your case - personal contact and communication can mend a lot of fences...

I'm quite certain that if you express that you can be responsible with your posting privledges & you acknowledge the errors of past, that your membership can be re-instated. You'll have to talk to Luke and Dez on that one though.

If that's the case, I will also reinstate your membership on the e-mail lists. I originally removed you from there due to some of what went down immediately after you were banned from dot org & I didn't want it to spill over onto the e-mail lists.

well Gabe, I appreciate the offer you have made. But honestly, I'm not interested in posting there at all anymore with Mixxer just reaming everyones arse thats new there that has an opinion about his topics. However, i would be interested in just reading them without having to "snoop around".;) almost everyday i read post from here and there cause ppl from each forum has a lot to offer- that's really kewl. Even Mixxer is highly intelligent, but even he hasn't been so forthcoming and has held back. tangent, help me out on something- why has Mixx asked for everyone to post dimensions of pipe manuactures product without completing the blanks in the end of the thread? Is he just dragging the crowd along or just wants everyone to provide information about his competitors pipes? i just dont understand the loyalty to bring down all those manufactures. sorry back to topic,...Luke and I have already set things straight via email which i sincerely appreciate him doing as i appreciate what you are doing.

thanks Gabe!

86atc250r

01-04-2005, 09:48 PM

tangent, help me out on something- why has Mixx asked for everyone to post dimensions of pipe manuactures product without completing the blanks in the end of the thread?

I haven't kept up with that thread much --- I looked at it briefly but am unsure of the blanks you're asking about.

Is he just dragging the crowd along or just wants everyone to provide information about his competitors pipes?

Dragging them along for what? It seemed to me that it was a thread informed to make information public that should be public in the first place so that people can make informed decisions.

just dont understand the loyalty to bring down all those manufactures.

Not sure I understand this statement - but how can providing factual info bring down manufacturers, unless they have something to hide? If they have something to hide and are ripping people off, shouldn't their deceptions be made public before they rip off any more unsuspecting people?

For instance, do you really think that it should be kept a secret that the Sparks "drop in aggressive" cam is nothing more than a CRF cam with it's identifying marks ground off?

I don't.

Admin

01-04-2005, 10:00 PM

Can't everyone just get along :D

Its a New Year, lets all be friends.

kgbg

01-04-2005, 10:26 PM

Thats good info, about the head cc's, the calculator, and the picture is worth a thousond words.
:cool:

chad502ex

01-05-2005, 06:49 AM

Originally posted by 86atc250r
I haven't kept up with that thread much --- I looked at it briefly but am unsure of the blanks you're asking about.

ok. i'm referring to not providing all the details about the dimesions that he requested. I mean maybe i am misunderstanding the thread but didn't he request all the different pipe dimensions in the thread to explain what dimensions have on pipes and then not tell us the outcome of all the dimensions everyone was uploading to him?

Not sure I understand this statement - but how can providing factual info bring down manufacturers, unless they have something to hide? If they have something to hide and are ripping people off, shouldn't their deceptions be made public before they rip off any more unsuspecting people?

yea, i hear this and agree that it isn't good to hide things, but providing information and exposing the entire group of pipe manufactures are two different things. Just because I buy a pipe from a manufacture A doesn't necessary mean that i have complete access to their design unless i were to backward engineer the product myself. to me that thread is like backwards engineering. backwards engineering is when you have a product that you want to disect to gain up on the competitor down the line. i dont know, maybe i'm way off here on this but that thread makes me queezy looking at all those naked manufactures exposed to the public like that. I'm sure this was never the intention of the thread and maybe i'm totally missing the lesson of pipe theory (has that even been taught in that thread yet?).

For instance, do you really think that it should be kept a secret that the Sparks "drop in aggressive" cam is nothing more than a CRF cam with it's identifying marks ground off?

keeping the cam as a secret when asked? no.
keeping it a secret and making money on ignorance? yes.

BTW, ignorance is not a bad word either. ignorance just means absence of information on a specific subject. But the public was ignorant about that cams secrets for a long time until finally an individual degree'd the cam in for themself and matched the specs to crf. it's not like that cam isn't a good cam. i think for XC it's awesome help on stock bottom end power.

personally i had the sparks agressive cam before my build and i was ignorant on the crf cam being sparks at the time of purchase until it was announced on the net. i didn't get that upset that sparks kept it a sectret from me cause i never ask. However, if i asked, like Luke did, and they still denied it to me, then i would be livid because that's a blantant lie.

chad502ex

01-05-2005, 06:58 AM

Originally posted by Admin
Can't everyone just get along :D

Its a New Year, lets all be friends.

Harlen, everything has a way of working out in the end. i think everyone has finally made their points and everything is better.

since i have no friends, I would very much like a few.:D

chad502ex

01-05-2005, 07:01 AM

Originally posted by kgbg
Thats good info, about the head cc's, the calculator, and the picture is worth a thousond words.
:cool:

thanks Kam, from these threads i thought if i just display picture and no words that finally ppl would just receive the information and not an idea that i was trying to out do everyone. in other words, i thought it was a way for ppl receive information without me being the typical arse.

allmixedup047

01-10-2005, 01:59 AM

after reading most of these "back and forth" threads, i have come to my conclusion. i for one wish i knew half as much about motors as dan(my uncle), kam, gabe (in gabes case that goes for suspension as well:p ) and chad. i know for a fact that you all hold more sence of mechanical knowledge than most of us on both atvriders and org could even graspe a hold of. you all do your own thinking and your own ways of working.
i know that as humans we all strive for a need of acceptance, and that is were i think the "my way is better" comes in. i dont know if this comes down to getting more people to try your(everyone in general) way of thinking or what.

chad you are absolutly right about the whole apoxy porting thing. this is not something everyone should go out to there garage and start in on. but i believe if you hold a vast amount of knowledge on the way this porting should work, then i think its something that shouldnt be over looked. i can assure everyone that is looking into this, dans motor will be a good bases on how this porting will work. me knowing him best out of everyone on these sites, i can assure you he will not cut corners and he will do everything to perfection. just being the anal retentive person he is;) . i think we will get a good base on how his turns out. it might not produce the most power in all aplications, but we will all see how it works in his aplication. i am sure he will let us all know, no matter the outcome.

so my thoughts boil down to this, you all know enough about motors to make your own decisions, so the "my way is better" thinking should be thrown out the door. as said befor to each thier own. and i cant wait to see the outcomes of all the different motor builds.

peace
chris

chad502ex

01-10-2005, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by allmixedup047
after reading most of these "back and forth" threads, i have come to my conclusion. i for one wish i knew half as much about motors as dan(my uncle), kam, gabe (in gabes case that goes for suspension as well:p ) and chad. i know for a fact that you all hold more sence of mechanical knowledge than most of us on both atvriders and org could even graspe a hold of. you all do your own thinking and your own ways of working.
i know that as humans we all strive for a need of acceptance, and that is were i think the "my way is better" comes in. i dont know if this comes down to getting more people to try your(everyone in general) way of thinking or what.

chad you are absolutly right about the whole apoxy porting thing. this is not something everyone should go out to there garage and start in on. but i believe if you hold a vast amount of knowledge on the way this porting should work, then i think its something that shouldnt be over looked. i can assure everyone that is looking into this, dans motor will be a good bases on how this porting will work. me knowing him best out of everyone on these sites, i can assure you he will not cut corners and he will do everything to perfection. just being the anal retentive person he is;) . i think we will get a good base on how his turns out. it might not produce the most power in all aplications, but we will all see how it works in his aplication. i am sure he will let us all know, no matter the outcome.

so my thoughts boil down to this, you all know enough about motors to make your own decisions, so the "my way is better" thinking should be thrown out the door. as said befor to each thier own. and i cant wait to see the outcomes of all the different motor builds.

peace
chris

thanks for your input Chris. A lot of ppl are really excited about Dans porting outcome. we can't wait to see it finished.

oldsandman

01-10-2005, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by chad502ex
... i just dont understand the loyalty to bring down all those manufactures... [/B]

but providing information and exposing the entire group of pipe manufactures are two different things. Just because I buy a pipe from a manufacture A doesn't necessary mean that i have complete access to their design unless i were to backward engineer the product myself. to me that thread is like backwards engineering. backwards engineering is when you have a product that you want to disect to gain up on the competitor down the line. i dont know, maybe i'm way off here on this but that thread makes me queezy looking at all those naked manufactures exposed to the public like that. I'm sure this was never the intention of the thread and maybe i'm totally missing the lesson of pipe theory (has that even been taught in that thread yet?).

The posting of the pipe diminsions is a good source of information. All of these pipes are sold on the retail market. All of the pipes are sold san confidentiality agreements. So what is exactly the problem with posting diminsions? I don't think the posting of this information will paraphrasing you...bring down the manufacturers... It is fascinating to see how many of the pipes are really in the same ballpark. The biggest problem with the atv industry imo is the basicly baseless claims full of smoke and mirriors that many suppliers use to sell parts. I have the resources to afford some trial and error with parts and for years I just kept it to myself. Now with sites like this and others maybe we can help out people with our experiences. If I were a kid with a limited income I would really like some hard information on this stuff before shelling out my $$'s. Honestly I don't have a problem with the manfaturers selling whatever crap they want...let the market decide. But wouldn't it be cool if they because of a knowledgable public were driven to compete and produce a really improved product.

chad502ex

01-10-2005, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by oldsandman
The posting of the pipe diminsions is a good source of information. All of these pipes are sold on the retail market. All of the pipes are sold san confidentiality agreements. So what is exactly the problem with posting diminsions? I don't think the posting of this information will paraphrasing you...bring down the manufacturers... It is fascinating to see how many of the pipes are really in the same ballpark. The biggest problem with the atv industry imo is the basicly baseless claims full of smoke and mirriors that many suppliers use to sell parts. I have the resources to afford some trial and error with parts and for years I just kept it to myself. Now with sites like this and others maybe we can help out people with our experiences. If I were a kid with a limited income I would really like some hard information on this stuff before shelling out my $$'s. Honestly I don't have a problem with the manfaturers selling whatever crap they want...let the market decide. But wouldn't it be cool if they because of a knowledgable public were driven to compete and produce a really improved product.

olds, there is always two sides of every coin. each side "could" face up when flipped (so to speak).

I completely see your point. I was just trying to flip the coin- that's all.

Don't get me wrong, I'll will still be looking for the lesson at the end of the thread you speak of. ;)