Possible problem with my quad, need help

[dober250R]

I'm currently using klotz 2-stroke transmission fluid in my 250R. Everytime I go to change the oil, the oil is a milky color. Anyone who knows what klotz looks like, it's a dark red color. When I change my oil, the oil is now a pink color. Am I running my quad 2 hot? And causing the oil to foam? Or is coolant leaking into my oil, thru the water pump shaft? I need some serious input on this. I don't know which way to go with this issue. If someone could please give me some insight. Right now i have a stock 87 cylinder, bored .080 over, and a head that has been milled down, and i'm runnin racin fuel. Stock radiator. Boyesen reeds, 40mm PWK carb, K&N air filter. I'm lost, and I need some help. It seems like the impeller on the shaft is a little loose, I can move the impeller in, just a little bit. How snug should the impeller be? And should there be any movement in and out of the impeller itself? I hope people respond to this. Thanks, everyone

[beak7707]

It sounds to me like you are getting water in your oil.

[seven]

I would say your impellar seal is leaking water into your case. In fact I would put money on it!

[seven]

Also, Look at the bottom of your water pump. There is a small hole there called the weep hole. If your seal is leaking it will usually have water dripping out the weep hole when the quad is running.

[ZRider400]

yep your water pump seals are def. shot.

while your in there fixing it , might as well replace all of them.

the seal thats leaking, mechanical seal, bearing....etc

[dober250R]

I just replaced them all, that's why I'm really confused. And that was a pain. They are all brand new. Should there be any play in the impeller? should i be able to move it in and out a little bit?

[seven]

They still could be leaking.

[dober250R]

Does anyone know if there should be some play in the impeller, by play i mean, should it be snug against whatever is behind it? Or should the impeller be able to move a little bit on the shaft?

[xlr810]

You are definitely getting water in your bottom end. Not necessarily from the water pump, though. The impeller shaft on mine has always had a little bit of in and out movement. If the weep hole isn't showing anything with the motor running, then the mechanical seal is fine. I would take a hard look at the crankcase vent tubes.

[Rich250RRacer]

Before you you instantly assume you have a seal problem, are you losing coolant? In many cases, grey or milky looking oil may be caused from normal clutch wear, and what you are seeing is oil contaminated by clutch material. I have changed more water pump seals than I care to count, both for myself and for customers, so here's some pointers for you. First of all make sure that the weep hole on the case is clear, Honda designed the water pump on this motor to minimize the amount of coolant that might enter the cases should the seal go bad, most of the water should go out this hole before it gets to the oil seal. Always replace both seals and the bearing in the side cover, this bearing turns at the same RPM as the motor and takes quite a bit of abuse. This may be where your movement in the impeller shaft is coming from. Is your impellar shaft worn or pitted? I have seen many that were corroded away. You did not state what year your motor is, if it is 85-88 there should be a copper washer behind the nut the holds the impeller to the shaft, this should be replaced when ever the seals are changed otherwise coolant can seep behind the nut and bypass the mechanical seal all together. 89 models have the nut cast as part of the impeller and this washer is not required. Is the whole shaft on your pump moving in and out or is it just the impeller itself? If it is just the impeller, did you remember to put the small steel washer on the inside of the impeller? If not, this may be letting the impeller move in and out on the shaft. If you are not losing coolant but still think it's water in the oil, you may be pulling water in through the crankcase breather hose. If you want to see if it's water, ride the quad as you normally would, then let it sit overnight. Do not restart it the next day, just remove the drain plug slowly and watch what comes out. The water, if any, should have separated from the oil and will be laying on the bottom of the case and will begin to seep out once the bolt is loosened. Good luck.

[dober250R]

The impeller itself moves on the shaft, the shaft does not move in and out. I just replaced every seal and bearing in the thing. The year of tranny is an 86. I only have a copper washer behind the impeller, you said there should be a steel one? I didn't see one when i took her all apart. I had to put a brand new shaft in it, cause i broke the old one torquin down the nut on the outside. I don't seem to be losing any coolant. I drained my radiator, and there seemed to be a lot in there. I have noticed when my quad does run, i find coolant on the frame underneath the weep hole, not large amounts, just a very small amount. To the amatuer person, they would never see it. It's not a very large amount that i'm losing, I'm an engineer, so when something's broke, i have to fix it, and fix it right. I think my impeller isn't on tight enough. Do you know what the torques spec is?Hey, thanks, that gives me some really good things to try out. I just want to thank everyone for their input. The

[Rich250RRacer]

I'll have to check my manual for the torque spec. There should be a steel washer behind the impeller, actually inside the part of the mechanical seal that goes into the impeller. For your year, you should have the copper washer behind nut. You will have in and out movement on the impeller itself, since you are pushing against the spring in the mechanical seal. When you tighten the impeller nut down, you are preloading the spring in the mechanical seal, but the impeller and it's shaft still have some room to move inward.

[beerock]

ok so you DID replace the mehcnical seal correct? what about the seal that goes on the back of the impeller? Did you put the seal on the impeller in correctly? the white part should be outside if not thats your problem.

ALso, how did you press in the mechanical seal if you actually replaced it? if you did this wrong you may have broken the carbon/plastic piece that the impeller seal spins on.Also, did you seat the mechanical seal all the way in the case?

get back at us

[beerock]

wait i have one mroe question, what color is your tranny oil new? and what color is your stroke oil for the motor. if your tranny oil isnt red and your 2 strokew oil is then id say you might have a center case leak. this is all specualtion, cuz im not sure what color your tranny oil is regularly.

[Rich250RRacer]

I have never seen a 2-stroke push mix oil into the transmission, they will generally pull trans oil into the crankcase resulting in a rich condition and even if it did there would have to be a considerable amount (much more than is in premix) to even be noticable. I am still in question as to whether this is actually water in the oil and not clutch material.

[dober250R]

hey rich 250R, where r u located? it sounds like you know your 250R stuff. Do you work at a shop? I see you're located in ohio, where about in ohio? I'm located in temperance,MI, just on the ohio border. Toledo, OH, is right down the street from me. I think it's clutch material also, cause i'm really sure i replaced the mechanical seal correctly, and yes, the white part is facing out. The original color to my tranny oil is a dark cherry red. After I run my motor, and check the oil, it is a dull pink color. When i drain my radiator, there is still a lot of coolant in there. So I think i'm just gonna check the torque spec on that nut, and make sure i have that steel washer behind the impeller, and buy a new copper washer for the nut, and call it a day. and leave her alone till something breaks.

[dober250R]

Does this mean I have a clutch problem? As in, are the springs too tight? Or is that normal to have the clutch plate material discolor the oil? come to think about it, i was bored one day , and felt like really gettin crazy with my ideas. I drained the oil, then I put some new oil in it, same klotz as i always put in it, then let it sit , then drained it after a few min. After this time, about half of the oil was still discolored. It took me about 2 times to get it to where it was back to the dark cherry color. Then I filled her up again, and everything was back to the dark cherry color. I even poured regular oil thru it after that, and to just clean out the system, to see if anything would change. Then i filled her back with with klotz, and rode her for a few months, and went to change the oil, and i had that same dull pink color. Now this really makes me believe it's just a clutch material problem. I just think the antifreeze is just coming from my radiator overflow, right now i just have a tube on the thing, no radiator bottle. I'm still gonna go over the water pump one last time. I think I got everything under control. thanks everyone!!!!!!!

[Rich250RRacer]

I'm located in Youngstown, on the eastern side of the state. If it is clutch material, this is a very common occurance and nothing to be alarmed about. You may want to change your oil more frequently. I've seen it do this after only one or two rides. Sounds like you did everything correctly and should have no problems what so ever.

[beerock]

ahh ok i see now, i dont think you have a problem excpet for not changing your oil enough. are you going through puddles and the like? where is your vent tube routed? water could be going into the vent hose that goes in the case. to fix this problem, run a hose from the crank case vent and run a hose up to the steering steam clamp. You wont have problems like that again.
so flush your oil and then check it regularly(there is a oil check screw) USE IT. also a common misconception is that a full tranny on a R is when it comes out of the oil check hole. It isnt. your suppose to have 700cc of oil in the tranny. if you use mroe its fine but the oil will rob some power. I personally I run my oil so its just dripping out of the hole then add a little more.

i hope your just having a crank case vent water problem:)

[ESR350r]

what is the purpose of the crank case vent? At times I have had oil come out of mine and i was not sure what caused it.

[beerock]

Originally posted by ESR350r
what is the purpose of the crank case vent? At times I have had oil come out of mine and i was not sure what caused it.

sounds like you put to much in it or it could be normal. i dotn know if you ride up steep hills or what. but the purpose of the vent is to keep pressurization and vaccum to a minimal amount

[dober250R]

Just to let everyone know, I have diagnosed the problem. I am a dousch, and forgot to put the washer in that goes behind the impeller. So that was letting water behind, and eventually working it's way in the oil. Thanks everyone for their thoughts and advice, R's for life!!!!!!!!

[beerock]

the washer? you mean that seal thats whilte on one side and rubber on the other? if you put that in without that piece you could have possibly messed up the mechanical seal

[Rich250RRacer]

beerock read previous posts or look at a microfiche to see this washer

[beerock]

Originally posted by Rich250RRacer
beerock read previous posts or look at a microfiche to see this washer

ya i saw it, its copper part # 90454-ka4-000 honda code 1035272