Beefed 400EX compared to 450r or yzf450?

[tdsongster]

I am thinking about building up my 400 EX beyond what is listed at the bottom. I am considering the following:

bore to 416
13:1 ross piston
carillo rod
stage 2 cam
port & polish
full hmf exhaust (cause have interchangable quite core and spark arrestor)

My question if two fold:
Is there a better way to build a 400EX?
How will this do compared to a 450r or a yzf450? I hear a lot of talk about the yzf450 but what would make it better then my beefed 400EX. I have elka triple rates so I doubt it does better there, I am running hipers with holeshot HD so don't think the tread is better. I will have replaced most everything in the engine after this so at most the yzf450 has 34 more CCs.

I would appreciae any light anyone could shed on this. Please be specific, something a little more insightful then "my quad is better becuase it just rawks".

Thanks

[nosliw]

Originally posted by tdsongster
I will have replaced most everything in the engine after this so at most the yzf450 has 34 more CCs.



23 :D

[Chef]

You should be fine with a stock 450...but if it has any kind of rider on it at all you need to do big valves and lighten things. Probably would need some more CC, too.

[sampleez]

my buddy has powrolls 416 stroker kit and it's pretty hot......but it still won't hold a candle to a yfz with even simple mods.

[cals400ex]

do those stroker really not help out a ton????


i have drag raced 3 yfz's. two stock ones, and one piped one. the piped one was simply quicker than my 426. once it hit 4th it passed me faily easy. the stock ones i both beat. i don't know. i am wanting to go quicker but i dont know what to do. reliability is a concern so i don't want really high compression.

[tdsongster]

The stock yfz is 11.9:1 compression. So I would at least go to 11:1. Call C&D Racing and ask them what they think.

[Chanman420q]

Originally posted by tdsongster
most the yzf450 has 34 more CCs.

Dont Forget a Better Flowing head, more compression, Liquid Cooling and 1 more valve then the EX Motor

Honestly, Bore it to a 416 then stroke it to a 440. Port head, Go with a more aggressive cam then the hotcams. like a TC. Also if you do go with that high of compression, id get the bigger head studs and 1mm bigger valves. Then Top it off with a FCR carberator.

[tdsongster]

That is what I said I was going to do and I already have an fcr 39m installed.

[harescrambles]

I had a ex with just about every mod posible ,acually i had 2 of them.and there is no easy way to tell you what you may not want to hear. but your beating a dead horse. with all my mods including axis LT frontend to the the ported,web cam,henson,edelbrock,wiesco, 416 or the 440 motors etc..the yfz was and is one of the best atv i have ever had the honors of riding. i rode the trx 450 it was ok and is a exelent xc atv but the when i test rode a yfz i was completly shocked at the hard hitting power it has, light weaght, reves like a 2 stroke.to make a long story short i sold both the ex's for what i coud get and bought a new yfz. a SE 450 yfz $6299 out the door. please no flaming i still like the ex iv had a few and have riden them for years, but to stay copeditive with the mx riders today faster and lighter is the way to go.

[atvracr350]

I totally agree with harescrambles. I am a honda lover. Every bike a buy is usually a honda and has been and will be. I got my first chance to ride one the other day and it blew me away. I was truly amazed. I just want to add that in the dirtwheels shootout a couple of months ago they tested a z440 with all kinds of things done to it against a yfz450 (stock) and a predator. They said that the yfz450 won the drags consitently against both of the competition. They showed a picture of it and the z440 was at least 3 or 4 bike lengths behind it. This z440 had $2000 in the engine alone. Do what you want with this information.

[Rico]

GT Thunders Stroker for the 400ex was puttin out more HP on the dyno than a yammi or honda 450, and I believe both were piped..

[tdsongster]

I am just trying to cut through some of the hype and get to facts, but that really seems to ruffle some feathers. The reason I asked was that I have dragged race my nearly stock (motor)400ex and got beat by a yzf450. I also got beat by a DS650 but would not ever consider buying a DS650. I also did some woods racing and had no problem keeping up, in fact there were times that I was waiting on the yzf. The woods trails are to narrow to pass. We then switched leaders and I left the yzf behind a couple of times.

I really don't care about a straight line drag, doesn't take near the skill as compared to very narrow, twisty, rough trails. Does the EX just handle that much better than the yzf?

Thanks...

[khen]

If it were me and I had the money into a Elka suspension I would put as much as $1K into my 400EX engine. This get's you a lot if you're frugal and do your own assembly.

I have about $350 into my 416EX engine and I don't have a problem running against my buddies piped/jetted/pro flo YFZ at the MX track.
I haven't raced my EX a lot since I built it, so maybe time will tell a different story.. I wish I would have got a video of me getting the holeshot on him the last race. I didn't think it was that amazing but the way some of these forums read you'd think it was impossible.

I think the YFZ is a great machine, if I was buying new I would go with that or the 450R. I wouldn't, however, give away my built 400EX so I could buy one. IMO.

BTW: If DirtWheels couldn't build a Z440 that could beat a stock YFZ for $2k then they don't know what they're doing.

[balls2da-wall]

Do you do any type of racing??? I have a 440ex and I race XC and I found out it doesnt matter how fast your bike is all it comes down to is riding...I still see 400ex's competivly racing in GNCC races...although if you race MX quads play more of a roll in getting the holeshot and winning:D just my 6 cents:D

[400exr]

I've been hearing the hype about the YZF for months now and thought it'd had to be a great machine!! Then a week ago a freind of mine actually got one, and I have to say it's not all that. Don't get me wrong it's a awsome quad, but it doesn't hold up to all the hype it's been given. for instance, me being 6'2" I felt really cramped on it. also, when racing him around a tight (very tight!) mx track I would keep up to him without problems. So, it might have more power stock to stock, but after a little money into the suspension on my 400 and I was holding my own. All I am saying is I wouldn't sell my 400 for one of the new 450's, maybe one day I'll get a TRX 450, but for now my 400 is all I need. Is might be just me, but aren't the all the new bikes based on the original Honda frame??

[harescrambles]

quad 10% rider 90%. no matter what you ride.... on the mx track i may have beaten a few yfz's on the ex, but they just weren't the best riders . its the good rider on the yfz that kept me from that 1st place. ride them both and you will know :D

[tdsongster]

There is a vid of a 400EX taking a yfz on http://www.yfzcentral.com/vids.htm I can only imagine what a 440 would do.

[hondarider2006]

I had no problem with my 416 beating the 450 r's this summer, but the YFZ's did give me a run for my money. I think its cool seeing the old school 400's out run the new 450's. Remember though a lot of its about suspension. I know I would not of been able to do half as well as I did without my set up. Build your 400 up, you will do just fine:D

[Florida400EX]

You also need to remember, you taking the honda engine and dumping a grand into it, dump a grand into the yamaha, and then see who's laughing. The two quads simply cant compare. I race MX, and consider myself a pretty good rider, and my EX just simply didn't cut it, i had it at a "JE 416 10.8:1 comp., hotcam stg2, procircuit full exhaust, no air box lid, and I had the quad WOT, whole time at the track, and some of the jumps were just imposible to make, the power was not there, going through turns I would kill, but any kind of flat ground they pulled away. I like the small feeling of the YFZ450, and my skill has quadruppled at least on it. For XC it is a completely different story, the 400ex has tons of lugging power, which you need for XC, and it rides smooth, for XC i'd take the EX.

[NacsMXer]

Originally posted by Rico
GT Thunders Stroker for the 400ex was puttin out more HP on the dyno than a yammi or honda 450, and I believe both were piped..

Yup, what Rico said. All the mods in my sig and I keep up with 450s all day. Just call Lazarus and he'll hook you up with what you need to be competitive. If it was me, I wouldn't waste my time on a built 416 to try and compete with 450s, just doesn't make as much power. I know the 500EXs will keep up too, but the 450 stroker kit is what you want to get if you need to meet the displacement limit for racing (unless it's open class).

[mx8]

Doug Gust don't need a honda or yamaha to win. :D Put him on a built 400ex and i bet he would still be in the top three. 90% rider, 10% bike. And a bank account like Fort Knox.:(

[hondarider2006]

Originally posted by mx8
And a bank account like Fort Knox.:(

Now that would be bad ***. I went there in 4th grade and got to hold a gold brick....Guy said if I could grip it by the top and carry it to the door, and back...probably 100ft away or so I could have it. If only I wasn't 9 years old at the time.....:(

[khen]

Originally posted by Florida400EX
You also need to remember, you taking the honda engine and dumping a grand into it, dump a grand into the yamaha, and then see who's laughing. I remember when the YFZ first came out it was this statement that drove a lot of people into buying one and selling off their 400's. However it is not entirely true..

The reason the YFZ has more hp out of the crate than the 400EX is because the engine comes built. The only significant restrictions on a YFZ motor stock is the exhaust, airbox, cam timing and jetting. Beyond those items your $1000 won't gain you much more hp. This is of course assuming you want to stay within the 450cc limit and run on pump/race gas(no turbo, alky or nos).

In other words, you're not going to see a 40% increase in hp by putting $1000 into the YFZ like you could with the 400EX.

It would seem with todays know-how and technology the most you can reliably squeeze out of a 450cc 4 stroke carborated engine running pump or race gas is 48-52 hp. Has anyone seen/experienced otherwise?? :confused:

[Florida400EX]

Originally posted by khen
I remember when the YFZ first came out it was this statement that drove a lot of people into buying one and selling off their 400's. However it is not entirely true..

The reason the YFZ has more hp out of the crate than the 400EX is because the engine comes built. The only significant restrictions on a YFZ motor stock is the exhaust, airbox, cam timing and jetting. Beyond those items your $1000 won't gain you much more hp. This is of course assuming you want to stay within the 450cc limit and run on pump/race gas(no turbo, alky or nos).

In other words, you're not going to see a 40% increase in hp by putting $1000 into the YFZ like you could with the 400EX.

It would seem with todays know-how and technology the most you can reliably squeeze out of a 450cc 4 stroke carborated engine running pump or race gas is 48-52 hp. Has anyone seen/experienced otherwise?? :confused:

Then reliability, and the length of time you can run the engine at this high HP. My yfz roughly makes mid 40's HP with a curtis sparks pipe and intake, and it will run all day long without overheating, while the HIGHLY modified 400ex that will be lucky to reach those HP levals will be super unreliable and will get hot fast, the 400ex engine is designed to be a torquey, easily lugged, reliable engine in the stock form, once you change it is when you run into problems, whereas yamaha aimed to make the yfz engine a high performance reliable engine, made for racing.

[MarkyNark]

Originally posted by Florida400EX
Then reliability, and the length of time you can run the engine at this high HP. My yfz roughly makes mid 40's HP with a curtis sparks pipe and intake, and it will run all day long without overheating, while the HIGHLY modified 400ex that will be lucky to reach those HP levals will be super unreliable and will get hot fast, the 400ex engine is designed to be a torquey, easily lugged, reliable engine in the stock form, once you change it is when you run into problems, whereas yamaha aimed to make the yfz engine a high performance reliable engine, made for racing.

I agree with you about the YFZ - dumping the same amount of money into the YFZ will indeed make it faster. But one thing you are not considering is the cost of a new YFZ. You can dump $2500 into a used EX that costs around $2500 and you are still $2300 less invested in the EX over a new YFZ. As far as reliablity, Ive seen a lot more stock YFZ down than EXs - My 440 is heavily modified now, with no reliablity issues now for over a year. We pulled the motor apart just to look at her, there are no signs of any problems. With an oversize oil tank/cooler I dont have any heat related issues either. Dont get me wrong, the YFZ is THE quad right now - but there is a lot of joy in this 250lb EX rider beating a 175 lb rider on a YFZ - The sleeper value is huge.

[397ccEX]

Now that would be bad ***. I went there in 4th grade and got to hold a gold brick....Guy said if I could grip it by the top and carry it to the door, and back...probably 100ft away or so I could have it. If only I wasn't 9 years old at the time.....

AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! THAT SUX
So a yfz isnt goin to SCHOOL a 400ex on the trails!

[Florida400EX]

Originally posted by MarkyNark
I agree with you about the YFZ - dumping the same amount of money into the YFZ will indeed make it faster. But one thing you are not considering is the cost of a new YFZ. You can dump $2500 into a used EX that costs around $2500 and you are still $2300 less invested in the EX over a new YFZ. As far as reliablity, Ive seen a lot more stock YFZ down than EXs - My 440 is heavily modified now, with no reliablity issues now for over a year. We pulled the motor apart just to look at her, there are no signs of any problems. With an oversize oil tank/cooler I dont have any heat related issues either. Dont get me wrong, the YFZ is THE quad right now - but there is a lot of joy in this 250lb EX rider beating a 175 lb rider on a YFZ - The sleeper value is huge.

there is a two thousand dollar difference in OTD price. id take a yfz with 500 into it vrs a EX with 2500 into it.

[MarkyNark]

Originally posted by Florida400EX
there is a two thousand dollar difference in OTD price. id take a yfz with 500 into it vrs a EX with 2500 into it.

Florida,

I dont think I'm suggesting to anyone that hey go out and buy a *NEW* 400EX and build it instead of buying a *NEW* YFZ.

What I am suggesting is that if you already have one, or can get a used one, you can build it up to perform as good as a stock YFZ and save $2300 in the process.

I am not anti-YFZ at all. But a lot of folks here are looking for ways to get the performance of a stock YFZ, and already have an EX.

But, if you have the money, the YFZ will not be a dissapointment at all. I think they are one of the best quads ever produced.

[harescrambles]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkyNark
[B]Florida,

I dont think I'm suggesting to anyone that hey go out and buy a *NEW* 400EX and build it instead of buying a *NEW* YFZ.

What I am suggesting is that if you already have one, or can get a used one, you can build it up to perform as good as a stock YFZ and save $2300 in the process.

I am not anti-YFZ at all. But a lot of folks here are looking for ways to get the performance of a stock YFZ, and already have an EX.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:huh you cant build a ex that would out perform a yfz, if it was possible i would have don it .you can only take the ex so far

[khen]

Originally posted by harescrambles
:huh you cant build a ex that would out perform a yfz, if it was possible i would have don it .you can only take the ex so far You can't build a EX that can out perform a stock YFZ? You must not know how to build then. :p

[MarkyNark]

Originally posted by harescrambles
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkyNark
[B]Florida,

I dont think I'm suggesting to anyone that hey go out and buy a *NEW* 400EX and build it instead of buying a *NEW* YFZ.

What I am suggesting is that if you already have one, or can get a used one, you can build it up to perform as good as a stock YFZ and save $2300 in the process.

I am not anti-YFZ at all. But a lot of folks here are looking for ways to get the performance of a stock YFZ, and already have an EX.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:huh you cant build a ex that would out perform a yfz, if it was possible i would have don it .you can only take the ex so far

Hare,

Here's the one that beats stock YFZ's. No lie - I do it every weekend and I'm not done building yet ...

The last YFZ it beat the rider was pissed, got off his quad and looked underneath my seat for the NOS bottle. I dont run NOS or turbo.

http://www.on-dunes.com/forums/fileattachments/DSCN0872.jpg

[ranger400ex1994]

this is like a subject that will never die. i say just leave it at yes you can build a 400ex to beat a 450r or yz450 but is it worth it. i have a 400ex and love the thing. i have also rode both the 450s and really liked them. i guess it all depends on how much money are you willing to dump into your ex motor to get the same HP that the 450's get with just a pipe and some air box work. i have a buddy thats got a built 440ex that takes alot of 450's he even took a YZ450 that had the LRD pipe on it but it was more my buddys then the bike becasue he has alot or experince. so Yes you can build a EX to beat the 450s but its all money.

[MarkyNark]

ranger400ex1994,

It doesn't take that much money. Lets do the math to figure out how much it costs to beat a YFZ.

1 ) 440 Big Bore Kit (Piston, Rings Sleeve): $311
2 ) Edelbrock 38MM "Doug Eichner" Carburetor: 479.00
3 ) Web camshaft : $157.50
4 ) Web Valve Springs: $84.40
5 ) Web Hardweld Rocker Arms : $244.00
6 ) Web Shortened Valve Guides: $51.60
7 ) LTE Dual Exhaust: $645.00
8 ) Labor to Install: $300-$500

Total: $2272.01 - $2472.01

The cost of a new YFZ is $7300. The value of a used EX is about $2500.

It would seem to me that the YFZ is more expensive. Let it die man!

[sharkinthepool]

Originally posted by tdsongster
I am thinking about building up my 400 EX beyond what is listed at the bottom. I am considering the following:

bore to 416
13:1 ross piston
carillo rod
stage 2 cam
port & polish
full hmf exhaust (cause have interchangable quite core and spark arrestor)

My question if two fold:
Is there a better way to build a 400EX?
How will this do compared to a 450r or a yzf450? I hear a lot of talk about the yzf450 but what would make it better then my beefed 400EX. I have elka triple rates so I doubt it does better there, I am running hipers with holeshot HD so don't think the tread is better. I will have replaced most everything in the engine after this so at most the yzf450 has 34 more CCs.

I would appreciae any light anyone could shed on this. Please be specific, something a little more insightful then "my quad is better becuase it just rawks".

Thanks

If you are going to do that much work take it to a 426 or 440. Why stop at a 416. The power gain is minimal.

[Jason250ex]

its all rider, and rider size, and what you plan on using this bike for, for example, my friend on my 250ex, stock except an e-series slip on took a friend on a modded 300ex(which also had an e series) then, a guy who weighed 75 pounds less got on the 300 and beat the 250 by ~ a bike length or so.....if you are only riding recreationally, you dont need to dump all that money to impress your friend with the YFZ, unless your rich.

[khen]

I agree, it all depends on what ones trying to accomplish. From what tdsongster is saying he rides mostly woods/trails and doesn't care about straight line drags. Given that he's already beating his buddy on a YFZ up the trails, the mods he's proposing is only going to improve on that.

In my findings the 450's propose the biggest challenge in the dunes, more specifically hillshooting. This is where the power to weight ratio becomes a big issue(doesn't help that I weigh 50lbs more than the guys I ride with). This is where the 2 guys I ride with that have piped/jetted YFZ's get me pretty good. Like I said earlier, I don't seem to give up much(if anything) on the MX tracks I ride to the piped YFZ.

Another consideration is if you enjoy modifying. I consider building/modifying as much a part of the hobby as riding and the 400EX engine is a great/easy engine to work on.

BTW: I built my 416 engine, including the pipe and everything for $350. I bought the parts for a bargain and did all the work myself, including the porting/polishing.

[tdsongster]

The argument I get alot is that if you do all the same mods to the 450 that you do to the 400, the 450 will still be faster. However, if I want to take the compression of my 400 to 12:1, I can't do that to the yfz since it is alreadly 11.9:1. I think I am going to stick with my 400ex, the handling is always dead on and I am not having problems with the 450s in the woods with a nearly stock engine.

I am also skeptical when I see things like, "I became 3 times the rider when i got a yfz". That is not possible with any quad. That and Gust is winning many competitions on his 400.

I think stock to stock the yfz will kill a 400, but that is because it has a lot of the things already done to it (compression ratio for example). However, it is more expensive then the 400.

I think it comes down to rider. Most of the people that I rode with were just friends. However if say i was racing against Colby, I am pretty sure he would leave me behind no matter which quad I was riding.

[Florida400EX]

Originally posted by tdsongster
The argument I get alot is that if you do all the same mods to the 450 that you do to the 400, the 450 will still be faster. However, if I want to take the compression of my 400 to 12:1, I can't do that to the yfz since it is alreadly 11.9:1. I think I am going to stick with my 400ex, the handling is always dead on and I am not having problems with the 450s in the woods with a nearly stock engine.

I am also skeptical when I see things like, "I became 3 times the rider when i got a yfz". That is not possible with any quad. That and Gust is winning many competitions on his 400.

I think stock to stock the yfz will kill a 400, but that is because it has a lot of the things already done to it (compression ratio for example). However, it is more expensive then the 400.

I think it comes down to rider. Most of the people that I rode with were just friends. However if say i was racing against Colby, I am pretty sure he would leave me behind no matter which quad I was riding.

First off, Gust has a SICK Z, and in stock for the Z400 has tons more potential then a 400ex. I feel much more comfident riding my yfz then i did on my EX.

[Curless #32]

You have to decide what you want in the long run. I raced MX all summer here in Mich, there were several tricked out 400's that ran very well with the 450's. They even one several races, but you don't want to run against them on tracks with any long staright stretches, the 450's can pull you on the top. I'm not saying that with enough money you can't be competitive but once they guys you are running with start building their 450's your gonna be in trouble.
As far as the Honda vs. Yamaha is concerned take your pick. My teammate rides a Yami and I have a Honda, in a flat out drag race, with 4 different riders on each machine, it was a dead toss up. The Yami has a jet kit, no lid and a fmf pipe... my Honda has the HRC kit and a K&N Filter..... both have the same MXR4 tires. We switched riders to be sure because rider has alot to do with the holeshot, we also went from a roll, they are really close. Make sure that you are comparing apples to apples not apples to oranges.

[tdsongster]

So what you are saying Florida400EX is that Doug's 400 doesn't stand a chance against the 450s???

[harescrambles]

top riders are riding 450's and there must be a reason. i guess if the ex could be built to run with them that's what they would be riding .

[tdsongster]

So harescrambles and Florida400EX both say that Doug doesn't have a chance? He is a top rider and not running one of the new 450s.

[khen]

Originally posted by harescrambles
top riders are riding 450's and there must be a reason. i guess if the ex could be built to run with them that's what they would be riding .
Top pro riders ride the 450's because the 450's are Yamaha and Honda's latest flagship sport quads. Sponsers including engine builders, manufactures and parts suppliers want to showcase their products/services for the latest quads available. Not to mention, no one has denied that if you are into competitive racing it doesn't make economical sense to buy a brand new 400EX and put the money into it to make it compete. But that doesn't mean that you can't build a 400EX to compete.

[ranger400ex1994]

I guess what i am thinking is even when the 400ex came out did you really seen any of the top pros switch from there 250r's. I know the ex won the BAJA right out of the box in 1999 but then why did all the top pros like Farr and Gust go with after market frames with YZF 426's and CRF 450's motors sleved down to meet at the time the 440cc max and Gust with the only DRZ 400 at the time with a after market frame. why didn't they just go out and build a 400ex?

[khen]

Originally posted by ranger400ex1994
I guess what i am thinking is even when the 400ex came out did you really seen any of the top pros switch from there 250r's. I know the ex won the BAJA right out of the box in 1999 but then why did all the top pros like Farr and Gust go with after market frames with YZF 426's and CRF 450's motors sleved down to meet at the time the 440cc max and Gust with the only DRZ 400 at the time with a after market frame. why didn't they just go out and build a 400ex?
I will offer you two reasons, one of which is what I've read and the other is my hypothesis. I'll let you choose.

1- All the riders already had sponsorships with the aftermarket frame companies and the quad manufactures weren't giving them squat so it was cheaper to build a quad from the ground up than to buy/build a quad. And again it's cheaper to detune a CRF/YZF engine than it is to build a 400EX engine(I've never denied that).

2- A lot of people on an online forum trying to justify selling there 400EX's to purchase an overpriced quad told them that a 400EX can't compete. :p

Seriously though, I don't care what the pro's are riding. I compete quite nicely on my 400EX and that's all that matters to me. All I did was offer up my opinion and all the YFZ owners got offended by the idea that a 400EX can compete on any level with the YFZ.

[Curless #32]

I keep hearing all of this talk about Gust... He is an awesome rider, and yes he rides a quad that started life out as a 400 but that is where the 400 part of the story ends. Come on, think about it... He never finishes off of the podium all year, that thing sounds like a freekin top fuel dragster, and the suspension...need we say more??? If anyone out there thinks that you can compare Gust's 400 to a stock one, or one that the average guy can afford to build your on crack! Doug does not call up your average parts place and say I have a Suzi 400 can you make me fast? He also does not put one quad together and ride it for 3 or 4 years, he rides them once and gets a new one, the suspension is rebuilt between rounds, so is the clutch, brakes and what ever else needs to be done. I'm not saying that this is wrong or not the way to win but its alot like a Nascar... use it once and throw it away. It is on the ragged edge of destruction from the word go.

If we ever got a real world cost to build sheet I think most of us would just cry. The average quad is around $6500 out the door, with just a few things done to it you are approaching $10,000. This is the mark that most of us reach:
pipes,carbs,bars,steering, shocks, tires, wheels, axles, ect
Well if the average joe gets to this point and runs at that level, what does a pro have to do? Go beyond it... way beyond it. If they don't, they run the risk of getting beat by the one or two local guys that run really well on their home track. That does not happen, why because they have lots of money to buy parts or have parts made that the little guys (like most of us) can't do. So please, oh please stop arguing about this... it is a dead horse, the top dogs are top dogs because they are awesome riders and because they have the best equipment all of the time.

Like I said before, I am not taking away from any pro's ability here. It is obvious that their skill got them to the level to be fully sponsored. It is just that once you are at that level, you enter a completely different world. I am sure that if any of us got a chance to throw a leg over any top quad, Gust's, Jones',Farr's ect we would just be amazed. O.K. enough preachin' let's go riding!:blah:

[mx8]

Very well said. It is sad but whoever has the most money wins, i think that there could be alot more Tim Farrs, Doug Gust, and so on. Most people don't have the money or time to do it all. I have seen the same top pros in the pro class for ever. It just don't change. After you build your quad, trailer, gas prices, pay to get in the race, pay to race one or two classes, food and everything else the normal guy can't do it. Ten or more times a year. I remember in 1999 i got 1st at Loretta Lynns, in the 400 B class. I didn't expect a million dollars, but i did expect more than a piece of wood that said first place and never had the year or class i ran. We put 12,000 + in a quad, the tracks make a killing off of us and we get 0$$$$$ back. :eek2: I'll stay in the woods and ride for free and still have a good time, with money in my pocket. :D 400ex, 450r, 200x, 185s, atc70 they all pay the same a trophy. JUST RIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MarkyNark]

Well, these posts are very interesting - but a lot of us race casually on the dunes. It’s cheaper, and you still get the satisfaction when you win. Even though we don’t get a trophy, we take pictures and videos. Sometimes we lose too - that’s all good - just more tinkering to be had. I'm not a rich guy, and I don’t pay any track fees, just an annual $30 pass to the dunes. It costs me about $100 in race gas and fuel for the truck for a full weekend - and I split that with my buddies. As far as food, I eat no matter where I go, and a trip to the grocery store is about the same no matter where I ride.

These guys that pro-race on the track are like NASCAR. They would never survive on the sheer winning money alone. It takes a lot of wins to finally get to the point were your advertisers and sponsors will belly up with the funds to keep you going.

If professional racing is your thing, then more power to you - cuz you have to be good in order to make a living at it.

My advice to you guys that may not have all it takes to be a pro rider, do a few mods, get an education, and find a job that pays so you can really enjoy yourself when you ride.

Remember, for most guys, this stuff is supposed to be fun, not a full time job.

[harescrambles]

well its been good to be a part of this discussion/debate. hope you all have a good time riding in the new year;) . latter

[tdsongster]

I wasn't comparing Doug's 400 to a stock one, I was comparing it to all the other pro riders on 450s.Of course that would only make sense. I hope you are able to follow that logic.

[Chef]

Originally posted by MarkyNark
Hare,

Here's the one that beats stock YFZ's. No lie - I do it every weekend and I'm not done building yet ...

http://www.on-dunes.com/forums/fileattachments/DSCN0872.jpg

I'm in the same boat as Mark...Mine not only eats the stock ones, it beats the built ones. I dont care what they do, if its on gas, its mine. Alcohol bikes aren't that far off, either. I've seen people in the pits looking under my bike for nitrous or turbo or whatever after I left the bike. Its funny...they think that just because they go buy the newest stuff and throw $30k at it its going to dominate all. Wrong.

http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/chef/done+for+04.jpg

When that started to get worn out and not do the job...I simply rolled this out of the trailer.

http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/chef/sunny0003+cut.jpg

And if worst came to worst, which it never did, I would just run this one: (Sorry for the asphalt pic, but its a good one :cool: )

http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/chef/napavine+3.jpg

[MarkyNark]

Sweet!

[Metzroth]

Wow reading this thread makes me want to go ride.

[honda450rider]

just buy a 450r ive raced and beat yfzs on hilshoots it handles better than the yfz its cheaper than the yfz and it compression ratio is 10.5: 1 its gonna be the next 400ex there will be so much to do to it in like a year or 2 and i never plan on losing to a yfz im goin to be getting a moose 470 kit with a 13.1:1 commpresion ratio and a sparks pipe jets k&n airfilter and then their wont be a yfz to catch me will at least not by dubois. WERD

[Florida400EX]

alright first off, I didn't say that gust had no chance, I said that his motor work will cost the average person around $2500 I'm guessing, which brings you to the same cost as a stock yfz, and will cost around the same to fully build up like a YFZ. What I did say is that on an MX track, its different then a drag. I rode my little bros piped Z, and lost by only 2 bike lengths to a piped YFZ, point being drag racing is a lot of the start, and a lot perfect shifting, aside from brute power. On an MX track, the power that the Yami makes helps you power through the corners when you need it, or get to a jump that needs more speed, where the EX just doesn't stand a chance. Face it, the 400ex is outdated, and is still an awsome C class racer or weekend fun machine, but come race day at a MX track, you wont beat somebody on a 450 with equal talent.

[Metzroth]

unless like everyone said, you spend 2500 on a 400ex (or you already have one) and then spend what you would have spent besides on the YFZ on the 400ex, then you will have alot more than a chance. Retail on yfz450 $6,899. Price difference: 4,399.
Thats just about every mod you can think of on ur quad. The sparks 440 national kit with everything on the list including x-6 exhaust and 39mm carb, and everything else you would ever want to do to your motor is 2824. 4399-2824. That leaves you 1575 to spend on other stuff. You can get elka rear full adjusability shocks for about 600 so thats 975. A-Arms 600. 375 left. Durablue eliminator axle... 350. So You can get your engine tricked out, your suspension tricked out. Then you can start changing out chassis parts. Still would probably want to get a swingarm. But with the mods that you could afford you would be able to beat a 450 as long as they stay at the 450 limit. Yes the 450 could be built to be better but then were talkin about more money and if you spend money on the 450 just spend on the 400ex to make it even better (450 stroker maybe). So to end the argument, IT IS very possible to build a 400ex to compete with 450's. Especially if u planned on buying the 450 anyways.

[400exr]

The YZF is a awsome bike, but that doesn't mean I'm going to sell my 400ex and go out to buy one. The only real difference I can see between the YZF and the 400 is the fact that the YZF is liqud cooled, compared to the 400s air cooled motor. This post started with the question " can I make a 400ex compete against the new 450's?" I think the answer is yes, bu it's going to take lots of money. My 400 can compete, and I've beaten many 450's to prove it.

[tdsongster]

2-4k is not lots of money, and by then it will be a little more then a stock yfz. Plus all those parts are proven aftermarket pieces. For example, I seriously doubt that the yfz suspension is anywhere near as good as elka.

[bansheex]

400EX= Trail Quad
YFZ=Race Quad
The Ex isn't at all in the same league as Yfz. The EX is a great trail cruiser but it is too outdated to be considered a "race quad" unless you'r talking woods racing. I own an Ex so don't think I am knocking it, I am just stating that it will NEVER be in the same catagory as a 450R or Yfz.

[tdsongster]

bansheex,

That is exactly what I asked you not to post. My YFZ is better because it rocks, or my yfz is just in a higher league. You don't even post one reason why. If it is so much better I would expect to see a whole list of things. Now granted stock for stock it would be faster, but is also more expensive. My 400EX is no where near stock. So what you are really saying, for example, is that the YFZ's suspension is better then my elkas. I think the real scenario is that you have forked out the cash for a more expensive quad and that alone will make you faster. The other problem that I have with your reply, is that if you ask anyone on this forum. Racing is 90% rider, 10% quad. that being said, your whole league point is completely bogus.

[bansheex]

If you build a 400Ex to run with a 450 how long do you think it will run? A motor that came from a XR400 vs. YZF450 which do you think is better? Unless you are talking about trail riding there is no contest. Is there any XR400's running in motocross or supercross? Why isn't there one Ex in the Pro production class? Don't say that the mfg's want all the pros on the latest thing because only a handful are "factory riders" Sorry but the 400Ex is outdated live with it. Air cooled vs Liquid is a big thing, also the head design is far superior on the Yfz, an Ex head could never outflow a Yfz. Fourstrokes need a good flowing head to make power period!! Also jack up the compression on the EX and what happens? Blown head gaskets, studs ripping out, etc. If you really want to make the EX "run with the new 450's" I hope you win the powerball and good luck.

[harescrambles]

Verry well said bansheex . i rode this weekend with a frend of mine he has a 416 ex elka LT front end axis rear an all mx aftermarket quad,axel frame,tires,wheels,stem etc... i have a yfz stock shocks, 4+1 front tires, extended rear axel pipe, jeted,free cam mod. i paid 6299 new for quad + anouther 700 in tires and axel,nerfs. he has 12000+ in his.at the mx track he couldent even keep up. then i let him rid the yfz he cam back shaking. i allso rode his at the same time the ride was plush and jumps were smooth but you need a long runway to make the jumps. were the yfz needs very little space. at any time on the yfz i could trottel it and pass him.oyea i am 30lbs heavier than him, we are the same age, we race all the time. we both have a wall of trophies so we are experienced riders. he used to always come in ahead of me now he sees the back of my yfz:D . there is no comprison on the track with a yfz. tdsongster you should ride a yfz and see for your self. dont believe BS you hear ,find out for your self..later

[khen]

Originally posted by bansheex
If you build a 400Ex to run with a 450 how long do you think it will run? A motor that came from a XR400 vs. YZF450 which do you think is better?If you built it correctly, as long as a YFZ engine or longer.


Unless you are talking about trail riding there is no contest. Is there any XR400's running in motocross or supercross? Why isn't there one Ex in the Pro production class? Don't say that the mfg's want all the pros on the latest thing because only a handful are "factory riders"Yes, but they are sponsered by other parts manufactures/suppliers who are interested in marketing their parts for the latest flagship sport quads. You are missing the point though.. If someone was in the market for a quad and didn't own one currently they COULD be better off starting with a 450.. But the question is should someone sell a partially built 400EX for pennies on the dollar only to start over building a 450. I would say no.


Sorry but the 400Ex is outdated live with it. Air cooled vs Liquid is a big thing, also the head design is far superior on the Yfz, an Ex head could never outflow a Yfz. Fourstrokes need a good flowing head to make power period!! Also jack up the compression on the EX and what happens? Blown head gaskets, studs ripping out, etc. This is all unsubstantiated dribble you read on these forums.. Certainly these things have happened, but only if the EX isn't built correctly.


If you really want to make the EX "run with the new 450's" I hope you win the powerball and good luck. I only have about $600 into my engine and it will run with the stock 450's easily, and will give my buddies YFZ with the Pro-Flo kit/baffle removed and jetted a run for the money in a short drag and I have no problems running with him on the MX track.

[Metzroth]

I rode a YFZ450 over the weekend and I have to admit the power was outstanding. It had a Dr.D slip on a pro flow kit and the cam mod thing where the cam is retarded 1 degree. But when me and him raced in a drag I stayed ahead until i shifted to 5th. Also when we raced around the track (just a little flat track) I could keep up and at times did better. Through the corners I was much faster but as soon as he came to the straightaway he pulled back up to my bumper just in time to turn again. IMO the 400ex is a much more comfortable ride. The stock yfz bars are too narrow for me and too low. But if you were to put a set of aftermarket handle bars and some extended a-arms there would be no comparison between the EX and the yfz. I would like to get a YFZ but I really can't afford it so I will just have to stay on the EX till I'm old enuf to get a loan. Until then I will just upgrade my EX while I don't have other things to pay for. Hopefully after I get my HMF put on, my K&N on and get my valves adjusted I will have quite a bit more power. Anyways all quads are fun and have there strong points. So don't go out on a limb to make someone feel like their quad is junk. I like my quad and I know it isn't the best :).

[bansheex]

Originally posted by khen
If you built it correctly, as long as a YFZ engine or longer.


I only have about $600 into my engine and it will run with the stock 450's easily, and will give my buddies YFZ with the Pro-Flo kit/baffle removed and jetted a run for the money in a short drag and I have no problems running with him on the MX track.
You said it STOCK. With a pipe and the exhaust cam retarded 1 tooth the Yfz is a whole new beast, you would be hard pressed to find a EX that would be even close in power.I love the EX, like I said I own one (stock) and it is a reliable fun machine to ride, but if performance is your ultimate goal, then why handicap yourself from the start? I don't mean any disrespect to any 400ex owners, as long as your having fun thats all that matters!!

[Chef]

After almost 5 years of a 400ex motor that was EXTREMELY built, almost 14:1 compression, I have never:

Lost a headgasket.
Ruined Head Studs
Broke a Rod
Dropped a valve
Broke a piston
Been Beat by a stock YFZ
Been beat by a Piped YFZ
Been beat by a Piped, Cam Modded, YFZ (It was a lighter rider on this one, too)
Been beat by a Z400
Been beat by a piped Raptor
Been beat by a carbed, piped, ported, pistoned Raptor
Been beat by a stock Banshee
Been beat by a piped Banshee
Lost a bet

Any questions?

[tdsongster]

Funny that yfzcentral.com has a 416 beating a yzf. The other thing that is pure crap is that the yzf smoked a modified 400ex on the mx track. That is the rider, you put Doug on that 400ex and I dont think you would have a prayer keeping up. Most of the stuff about which one is faster is a pure drag race. Well that takes very little skill just to run through the gears. I was hoping for some real facts but all I get is hype.

[bansheex]

Put it on thats incrediable! It needs a spot there for sure!!!

[tdsongster]

Bansheex, you are saying that you would beat Doug on a 400 with your yzf?

[bansheex]

Equal riders on the 2 quads and the Yfz wins everytime.

[tdsongster]

Only stock for stock, and I like how you avoided ansering my question, just proves my point...

[tdsongster]

Chef,

Post a pic of your 400 pls...

[bansheex]

The only point you are proving is that you own a 400Ex and are very bias toward it. No way I could not come close to Gust on anything but thiat is a stupid comparison. What if Gust was riding a 400Ex and Natalie had a Yfz? What would happen then? Why don't you buy a 450R then argue it is better than a Yfz? At least then you might have a valid point.

[tdsongster]

You still can't answer my question, and your comment about equal riders means it is the rider's skill not the machine. That is waht I am biased towards. You are biased to all the hype...

[bansheex]

If the riders have the same skill, than the rider with the Yfz wins. Question answered, why is that hard to understand? Skill is a big part but if it is equil the Yfz will win period.This is a useless argument because in your mind the 400Ex is king. Maybe some day you will ride a Yfz(honestly) then its off to the Yami dealer to see what they will give on trade in!!:blah:

[Chef]

Here ya go td. Edit: Wrong pic.

[tdsongster]

Man can you spew the hype...

[tdsongster]

That is a sweet quad chef! To bad it can't hold a candle to Bansheex's YFZ, are you off to the Yami dealer to trade it in???

NOT...

[Chef]

Originally posted by tdsongster
That is a sweet quad chef! To bad it can't hold a candle to Bansheex's YFZ, are you off to the Yami dealer to trade it in???

NOT...

No...I'll just ride this one instead.

[bansheex]

Where did you see that I own a Yfz? You sure love to argue, someday you will make someone a good wife.

[tdsongster]

GEEZ,

You are the one throwing around the lame insults...
I was in JR High the last time I heard that one...

[tdsongster]

Chef,

How much $$$ do you have wrapped up in your quads? Do you race GNCC with any of these?

[Chef]

I dont know...somewhere around 100k probably if its all added up. And nope, no GNCC. This is as close as I get to a GNCC setup:

[harescrambles]

gust rides a 400 built to a 450 its not stock at all. it is a one race motor.Hmm-seems iv'e read some tall tails on this forum .you know im not bashing the ex its a great quad i raced it for years, but then i had to do the same thing in 04,it was should i build a badass ex ,or get the new yfz450. i chose to build my ex . by the way(i have pics of the ex if you would like to see them) but the ex just dident have what it takes no matter what i did to it...i bought a 05 yfz and its amazing like night and day between the two and it dont take much $ to get the yfz race ready.... like the pro's told me "bro your just beating a dead horse" move over to the dark side my frend:D . i did...... good luck

[harescrambles]

chef... is that a crf 450 motor ..im shure its not stock
very nice,,,, gulp im guesing it will eatup my poor ole yfz:(

[tdsongster]

So now you can beat anyone on any 400EX?

[Chef]

Originally posted by harescrambles
chef... is that a crf 450 motor ..im shure its not stock
very nice,,,, gulp im guesing it will eatup my poor ole yfz:(

Yes...your right, and yes...haha

[mx8]

What do you win for having the fastest quad? MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM a piece of wood with the place you finshed on it. And no money in your bank account:( Wow that makes me want to go buy some OVER PRICED after market products. :confused:

[harescrambles]

Originally posted by tdsongster
So now you can beat anyone on any 400EX?

did i miss somthing?

[harescrambles]

Originally posted by mx8
What do you win for having the fastest quad? MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM a piece of wood with the place you finshed on it. And no money in your bank account:( Wow that makes me want to go buy some OVER PRICED after market products. :confused:

yes indeed a peice of wood with your name on it.looks good on the wall . it represents accomplishment and achievement, there is a lot of competition to place in the top 3 is not easy, so the plak is nice to look at
yes you get paid for racing. but dont plan on getting rich:(
i agree aftermarket products are over priced, but what can yu do?:) gota have it unless you want make your own .

[Metzroth]

would you like the aim of the guy whose YFZ i rode?

[pnut420]

Originally posted by harescrambles
I had a ex with just about every mod posible ,acually i had 2 of them.and there is no easy way to tell you what you may not want to hear. but your beating a dead horse. with all my mods including axis LT frontend to the the ported,web cam,henson,edelbrock,wiesco, 416 or the 440 motors etc..the yfz was and is one of the best atv i have ever had the honors of riding. i rode the trx 450 it was ok and is a exelent xc atv but the when i test rode a yfz i was completly shocked at the hard hitting power it has, light weaght, reves like a 2 stroke.to make a long story short i sold both the ex's for what i coud get and bought a new yfz. a SE 450 yfz $6299 out the door. please no flaming i still like the ex iv had a few and have riden them for years, but to stay copeditive with the mx riders today faster and lighter is the way to go.

Best feeliing quad Ive riden even the yz426 I got from you :devil:. There are faqster quads but like you said they are very light and delivery the power good, I also like the yfz's rear link. For the $ Ex's are still awesome, my buddies 416 ex thatwas 11:1 etc... eas about even was my stock ones, but thingsd will change as Ive piped mine etc....

[cals400ex]

my bike has a fair share of mods but nothing to the max of its capabilities. i have raced 4 yfz's. we all raced on a road so we could see whose bikes were faster, not who could drive better. neither of the stock yfz's could take me. they were closest to me in 4th gear. however, i had a edge throughout. the piped and jetted ones beat me easier than i beat the stock ones. by the way, they both only had slip ons too. even those slip ons must make a difference on that bike.