NMotion 520R

[chad502ex]

anyone like to guess what the RWHP on a NMotion 520R is?

I have the dyno and I'll be posting, but first I wanted to hear your guesses.

The 520R is a NMotion 520 piston and cylinder kit, port and flow with stock valves, stock carb, HRC cam, and NMotion exhaust.

Think of very IMPRESSIVE #'s, then post your guess.

[RedRacer44]

Nate at NMotion and the guy who runs the Dyno for them told me they were getting 58-60 HP outta the 520R. Really nice quad, really like the color scheme. Maybe a lil' too much black but still cool. I hear they're having problems with going through top ends in it?? Just what I heard though....

[mikes450r]

i will go with 54 since you seem to be a little excited about it..

[mikes450r]

ya i probably wont go any higher than there 500 kit..seems like you just lose to much reliablity futher on..

[450 Racer R]

76? 85 with a pulse charger

[chad502ex]

all great guesses thus far.

Red Racer that was a slightly better setup that John from NMotion referred to.

mike, why do you think the 520r wrhp would excite me? LOL!! hopefully the 550 should be able to get a little more HP than a 520 with no valve work and HRC. wouldn't ya think? :D

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 450 Racer R
76? 85 with a pulse charger

LOL, maybe but not with reduced porting! . reduced porting gives more bottom end than top end power.:D

[mikes450r]

lol...hey chad isnt nmotion working on a 570 kit for the honda...now i know you would like that:D

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by mikes450r
lol...hey chad isnt nmotion working on a 570 kit for the honda...now i know you would like that:D

na, I'm not interested in anything bigger than 550..

;)

[dn1911]

Ron Hamp from thumpertalk.com is workin on a 570. i think 102mm with striked falicon crank

[kazpr]

I was told by the Dyno guy @ nmotion they need to replace the rings in the 520 race bike every 6 or so races.
Was told that sometimes need to be more!

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by dn1911
Ron Hamp from thumpertalk.com is workin on a 570. i think 102mm with striked falicon crank

they already work'n a 585R. what a monster!

[mikes450r]

so when you going to show us those dynos chad..:)

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by mikes450r
so when you going to show us those dynos chad..:)

I have one now, but I'm waiting until tommorrow.

;)

chad502ex.com

[2manycrashes]

Originally posted by chad502ex
I have one now, but I'm waiting until tommorrow.

;)

chad502ex.com

The agony of waiting.... :D

[LS@GtThunder]

Ok - Ill be a sucker. this sounds like fun.

First a few questions.

1. What brand dyno?
2. Single or dual roller?
3. What rear tires for the dyno run?
4. What exhaust?
5. What header diameter - 4 inches from the head?
6. What Carb?
7. What cam?
8. What size valves?
9. What ignition?
10. What fuel?

HHHHMMMMM - since I have a lot of guessing to do -

1. Dyno jet. +/- = ??
2. Duel. +/- = 0
3. American Racer - Medium compound. - = .5
4. ?? +/- = 2.0
5. 1.5 inches I.D. + = .5
6. FCR 40mm + = .2
7. MegaCycle + = 1.5
8. +2 Intake +1 Exhaust + = 1.5
9. CR + = .5
10. VP - = .2

54.5 HP With no correction for exhaust.

[dn1911]

i would guess the valves are probably +2 intake and +3 exhaust if they went all out.

carb - isn't there a 41 FCR? they were also talking about needing something in the mid to high 40's though.

ignition - probably some type of Dyna or Vortex. would be cool if it had the CRF conversion.

i'm guessing some where around the 60 horse mark just because things always seem to get inflated on the internet.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by LS@GtThunder
Ok - Ill be a sucker. this sounds like fun.

First a few questions.

1. What brand dyno?
2. Single or dual roller?
3. What rear tires for the dyno run?
4. What exhaust?
5. What header diameter - 4 inches from the head?
6. What Carb?
7. What cam?
8. What size valves?
9. What ignition?
10. What fuel?

HHHHMMMMM - since I have a lot of guessing to do -

1. Dyno jet. +/- = ??
2. Duel. +/- = 0
3. American Racer - Medium compound. - = .5
4. ?? +/- = 2.0
5. 1.5 inches I.D. + = .5
6. FCR 40mm + = .2
7. MegaCycle + = 1.5
8. +2 Intake +1 Exhaust + = 1.5
9. CR + = .5
10. VP - = .2

54.5 HP With no correction for exhaust.

LS, your funny as shiznit! LOL

1-3 correct.
4-5. NMotion full exhaust as indicated
6. stock carb as indicated
7. HRC cam as indicated
8. stock valves as indicated
9. vertex
10. pump

54.5 is good guess but too low. You've played this before- havn't you
I'll post tommorrow- heh.
:p

[LS@GtThunder]

Originally posted by chad502ex
LS, your funny as shiznit! LOL

4-5. NMotion full exhaust as indicated
6. stock carb as indicated
7. HRC cam as indicated
8. stock valves as indicated
I'll post tommorrow- heh.
:p

Ouch - I just read the first post again - I missed the obvious.

HRC can, Stock Carb, Stock valves, Pump gas - the peak HP numbers might be nice but they will not convey how much torque that thing must have and how strong it feels when you ride it. Let me make another guess - at 4000 RPM that thing must have 75% or more HP then stock.

[dn1911]

ya i missed the fine print also;) but if it is impressive as chad's making it out to be, then think what it would do when they do go all out with valves, carb, PC exhaust:devil: . that thing will be wicked.

[Jersey450R]

the nmotions 520R is on page12 of the new ATV sport magazine.

[chad502ex]

actually, the reason why i'm excited about this dyno is cause I've seen a couple 520R dynos with less HP even with valve work. the 520r dyno that i have ready to post is with stock valves. valve work better cam and stroke should help even more.

[mikes450r]

come on chad your killen us....show us the dynos..:p

[450 Racer R]

THIS is BS. He doesn't have any dyno sheets

[RedRacer44]

I'm telling ya guys, I heard from Nate and the dyno guy from NMotion themselves.....they told me 58-60 HP. Now if things have changed since then, I dont know.

Again, I heard that it eats top ends on a regular basis and that its really not as powerful as you think it would feel. But then again, how could 58-60 HP not be powerful :confused:

[chad502ex]

OK, com'on guys- I always tell the truth:devil: Why would you think I wouldn't have something I say.

RedRacer, again 58-60 is a very respectable number. Truthfully, I hope to get 58-60 with my 550r. If I get more, all the better. We'll see shortly on the 550

Anyway,

[kazpr]

Chad what exactly was done to that motor? Was that done on the Nmotion dyno also?
Thanks

[joe1l]

Well that looks pretty impressive to me with stock valves and hrc cam!! If it is reliable enough, I'd definately consider buying it!

[chad502ex]

listen guys, the NMotion kit is nothing but reliable and the proof is in the pudding how the kit performs on a mostly stock setup. This is a awesome example of their technical ability. Two thumbs up!

kapr, read the first post in the thread for motor setup details

[mikes450r]

ahh..i was one and half off on my guess...

[RedRacer44]

55 RWHP ehh? Pretty good number but I was seriously expecting higher out of a 520 big bore on a motor like the TRX motor. I've seen 4 TRX motors with stock bore throw out 52-54 HP easily, and they're outfitted with Sparks parts. We've already had this arguement in another forum, I'm sorry and dont mean to step on anyone's toes. :D

The NMotion quad is really nice though, and I bet that ****er does rip. I'd like to have it at the dunes more than on a MX track.

[mikes450r]

i like the nmotion also..but i would like to see how it does against sparks 500 kit..with the same work done to it..

[XANDADA]

Its alright:ermm: ....for a 4 stroke


I like this 500R better :scary:500R Sabertooth Dyno (http://www.planetsand.com/memberphotos/237596-98HPDYNO.jpg)

just curious, what is the cost for all those engine mods?

[chad502ex]

46% gain with basically port/flow, bore, cam and exhaust. that's an incredible gain without touching the bottom end- imo.

38 ft/lbs of torque is respectable too

[chad502ex]

I can't beleive there is over 700 thread views but only a few comments.

What is everyones opinion here? I'd like to hear it all- go ahead everyone, chime in.

chad502ex.com

[rowlrag]

Originally posted by chad502ex
46% gain with basically port/flow, bore, cam and exhaust. that's an incredible gain without touching the bottom end- imo.

38 ft/lbs of torque is respectable too
Wanna race?:D

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by rowlrag
Wanna race?:D

are you asking me to race or the 520? I should be ready days after xmas with my new 550, I'd line up with ya..

:macho

:D

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by chad502ex
are you asking me to race or the 520? I should be ready days after xmas with my new 550, I'd line up with ya..

:macho

:D

just play'n

:blah:

[jbuck]

hey ill race if you come to california and win hehe

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by jbuck
hey ill race if you come to california and win hehe

well, at least I know your hp potential before I go to California and lose ;) (see 520r dyno).

:eek2:

chad502ex.com

[jbuck]

im only pushing 76 hp out of it

[Pappy]

all i gotta say is you better have a damn good set of brake pads on that puppy:scary:

[jbuck]

thats why i still front bakes other wise i would remove them

[jbuck]

a friend of mine has a banshee with 115hp and he kills me when we drag

[#1speedbump]

I had read and also been told that they(Nmotion) were seeing over 60hp at the rear wheels.

Xanda- If your asking about the price for the Sabertooth everything that Neil says is in the kit is close to 4grand. I know the 520 kit is 900, I dont think that includes the headwork or exhaust. But their cylinder was done by a very well known caster.

It may even have some common ground with the saber:uhoh:

OPk I did some searching a found a bitr of info posted by THE man who builds the Nmotion pipes and also dynoed their motor

"Its good to see you guys are skeptical I know I was lol
I here people claim 60 even 70hp out of mild modded motors and I just roll my eyes haha
Let me assure you this 520 is not a mild moded motor yes it is still low compression and was running pump gas
Let me start out with saying the best yzf I have tested on my dyno is 50hp. That is just a ported, cam mod, pipe air filter the norm nothing exotic
The best trx450 that I had tested up till then was around 47 and that was with porting, web cam, yzf carb, pipe which is good
So when the first pull on the 520 was 58hp I was surprised
I think when nmotion first got it running it made around 45 with a stock head and then cams took it up only 2-3 more it wasn’t till they put big valves and porting and played with cam timing that it came alive I think another 7hp then that’s when I made a custom big bore pipe for it that added 2more throughout the power band
I personally feel there is more in it with ignition changes bigger carb and still bigger valves then what they got then they get to add the stroke! That’s when the fun will start lol
Oh by the way it really didn’t surprise me that it made good numbers ...the cylinder was casted by a well known planet sander I wont mention any names for fear of being associated with four strokes HAHA "

[29FTEX]

I've got nothing bad to say about nmotion. They did my head work, and did one heck of a job. John is really fun to talk to because he gets so excited talking about motors.

As far as the dyno pull, very impressive. Not all dynos are the same and you can make them read what you want. Not a flame, just a fact. I was wondering, how come it didn't rev out to the limiter @ 9800 RPM? It pegged out at 9000 RPM.

[BSTURDIVANT]

If you look at the run the engine had already peaked and ran out of air quickly so the operator chopped the throttle before the rev limiter. Looked like it may have still been making over 50 HP if ran to limiter!

[450ar]

The price for the cyclinder and piston is under a grand, but whats the price for the head work with the bigg valves? Thanks

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 450ar
The price for the cyclinder and piston is under a grand, but whats the price for the head work with the bigg valves? Thanks

I spent $750 for port/flow work and +2mm/+3mm oversized valve

[29FTEX]

It's hard not to be sceptical on these dyno pulls.

When I talked to John he said they were coming close to 60hp. That was the 520cc with 12:1 piston, their megacycle "type" cam (not a drop in & lots of head mods to get it to work), +2/+3 valves, nmotion exhaust, and a Mikuni 44mm carb (also experimenting w/ 48mm Mikuni). These are major additions that the motor that was dynoed didn't have. The nmotion motor John told me about was only 3-4 hp higher than this one we're seeing? Don't spend your money on the extras folks. Proof is in the pudding, as I saw someone write.

In the quote #1speedbump gave us, the motor builder's talk of the motor mods came out to about 57hp when "added" together. That quote had more mods than the one dynoed, and only about 2hp more? John told me to expect around 4-6 hp with the head work.

Some people don't understand that dynos can be "manipulated" to get a desired result. No doubt, there probably have been several people calling nmotion to get this 520 kit, and expecting the same results, just from an internet post. So, don't be let down if you don't see the same as what you did here. It's probably a great kit to buy. Dynos should be used for tuning and comparison when adding mods to see the changes, not to see who has the biggest number. Even though, that's what makes sales.

Let the flames begin.

[LS@GtThunder]

Originally posted by 29FTEX
It's hard not to be sceptical on these dyno pulls.



Some people don't understand that dynos can be "manipulated" to get a desired result.


Dynos should be used for tuning and comparison when adding mods to see the changes, not to see who has the biggest number. Even though, that's what makes sales.

Let the flames begin.

You are correct - however a good dyno operator will never manipulate the results and will take what appear to some as extreem measures to produce very accurate runs.

I did not buy my currant dyno for profit - I bought it out of frustration at the lack of repeatable results I was getting from the shops where I went for dyno testing - we had 3 dynos within an hours drive when I bought mine.

An even bigger problem then intentinal manipulation is the problem I see with poor operation causing scewed and inaccurate results - however this normally does not give higher reading but lower and very inaccurate.

Things that effect dyno readings include -

Tires - I always use the same ones.
Tire pressure - I always run the same pressure.
Weight on the tire - I always run the dyno - a heavier or lighter rider will effect the tire flex on the drum.
Chains and sprockets - I run what the customer brings in and explain the problem to them if there is any wear. I always use new sprockets and chain for R&D
Rear Brake drag - I always back of the rear brakes before I dyno.
Gear that you dyno in - This is very critical and also very missunderstood on an acceleration dyno like the Dyno Jet - for pure HP R&D I may make very long runs to build a lot of heat for testing - I always try to run at the same acceleration rate that the engine will be used at. A sand dune motor - I never dyno in 3 or 4th gear. A mini bike like a KX80 I may run in 3 gear to achieve a 4 second dyno pull. A flat track motor - I run at full throtle in high gear, pull down the engine with the brake at least twice and then start the measurement when the coolant temp has reached the normal operating temp - this while I have 40 MPH air blowing over the radiator.

[44oEX]

I don't know if this was posted or not I didn't read the complete post.

But didn't you say your 502ex had 75 ft/lb of torque. So whats up with the low 30 on the 520R

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 44oEX
I don't know if this was posted or not I didn't read the complete post.

But didn't you say your 502ex had 75 ft/lb of torque. So whats up with the low 30 on the 520R

true. the mid 30 ft/lbs of torque is on a 520r. I don't have a 520, I have, or will have very soon, a 550r.

One difference is I built my 502 for torque, this 550r will be for HP. Best of both worlds. BTW, Torque is a derivative of hp and can be calculated from a hp curve. Why bother though if the computer can do it for you, right?

[44oEX]

so your saying that the 502 will have more torque them the 550 :huh just less HP

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by #1speedbump
Oh by the way it really didn’t surprise me that it made good numbers ...the cylinder was casted by a well known planet sander I wont mention any names for fear of being associated with four strokes HAHA "

I'm curious as to whom you speak of, is it cheetah who casted the new jugs? just curious.:confused:

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 44oEX
so your saying that the 502 will have more torque them the 550 :huh just less HP

the 502 is with a 77mm stroke compared to 70.4mm. The stock stroke of a 400ex is 70mm. Understand that the stroke isn't the only thing that makes up torque; bore, rpm and cfm throughput also has a lot to do with it too. I would think that if a rope was tied to each grab bar and tug-a-war was played between the 502 and the 550r, the 502 would drag my R backwards (assuming each had max traction and all). This is why the head cfm throughput is clearly different from my 502 to my 550r. The 502 has smaller ports and uses a velocity stack to increase bottom end flow. The 550r has ports wide open and relies on top rpm vaccuum to assist in flow. clearly oposite ends of the spectrum.

[2manycrashes]

Chad502ex,

Thanks for posting the dyno. It is the first dyno that I've seen of the 520R. I actually visited nmotion's shop while I was in Wichita, KS and spoke with Kevin.

I spoke with Nate on the phone while I was at the shop. He advised that it would really be better to wait until I could get all the monies together to do the full motor install. This way I would get the max performance out of the motor rebuild. I really appreciated the guy's honesty and will keep them in mind for future rebuilds.

According to Nmotion, several manufacturers including a very well know engine builder are purchasing a large quantity of the cylinder kits. If this is true, then it speaks volumes for the 520 kit.

I'm assuming the name of the engine builder that is buying 50 kits is open information, but I'll leave that to Nmotion if they want to discuss who it is. I don't want to mess up a business deal for another person.

[#1speedbump]

No it wasnt. I wont say who it was because I do not know if he wants everyone knowing he did the casting. Sorry. But it is not my place. Maybe Nmotion will tell you.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 2manycrashes
Chad502ex,

Thanks for posting the dyno. It is the first dyno that I've seen of the 520R. I actually visited nmotion's shop while I was in Wichita, KS and spoke with Kevin.

I spoke with Nate on the phone while I was at the shop. He advised that it would really be better to wait until I could get all the monies together to do the full motor install. This way I would get the max performance out of the motor rebuild. I really appreciated the guy's honesty and will keep them in mind for future rebuilds.

According to Nmotion, several manufacturers including a very well know engine builder are purchasing a large quantity of the cylinder kits. If this is true, then it speaks volumes for the 520 kit.

I'm assuming the name of the engine builder that is buying 50 kits is open information, but I'll leave that to Nmotion if they want to discuss who it is. I don't want to mess up a business deal for another person.

2many, thanks for your input. very informative.

#1, I can appreciate that. no worries.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 2manycrashes
Chad502ex,

Thanks for posting the dyno. It is the first dyno that I've seen of the 520R. I actually visited nmotion's shop while I was in Wichita, KS and spoke with Kevin.


your welcome.

Just to let everyone know, I called NMotion before I posted the dyno to make sure it was ok with them. Just trying to post the facts and let you all make the decision about the information presented. hope it helped somehow.

[kgbg]

That is pretty impressive.

The casting is done by CP industries, the same company who did the Sabertooth 500R. This is not priveledged info, you just have to know where to find it.

The big jug, requires a little case machining, does Nmotion still tell you about duct tape, Shop Vacs, and no splitting the case? Thats the reason I did not go with it. I did not want to tear the bottom end apart, and I did not want to do it the Shop Vac and duct tape way:ermm: .
Nmotion has been very good to talk to. I would really like to see one of these jugs. If they look anything liketh Sabertooth, they are a very impressive piece.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by kgbg
That is pretty impressive.

The casting is done by CP industries, the same company who did the Sabertooth 500R. This is not priveledged info, you just have to know where to find it.

The big jug, requires a little case machining, does Nmotion still tell you about duct tape, Shop Vacs, and no splitting the case? Thats the reason I did not go with it. I did not want to tear the bottom end apart, and I did not want to do it the Shop Vac and duct tape way:ermm: .
Nmotion has been very good to talk to. I would really like to see one of these jugs. If they look anything liketh Sabertooth, they are a very impressive piece.


any kits for me to "sample" on the dyno? It could be like an independent testing of your kit to get you going, if it's any good. Then, I'll post the results on this site for everyone. interested?


let me know, I'll get 'er independently tested for ya.;)

[kgbg]

I appreciate the offer to help, but I do not see how it could work with your engine. The stroke of your crank, and or the wrist pin height will not jive. I have them in the hands of 10 independant testers as we speak.
But so you know the, Dyno I have is as independant as you can get. One party supplied piston, another supplied head work, a third supplied a cam, and a 4th did the dyno, and none of the above parties are owners of the quad. I am only the suppier of the piston.
I will have mine on a Dyno as soon as my head is back (Monday), and I have my new pipe to test with it.
To repeat: Dyno's are subjective to many things as Laz mentioned. So take it all with a grain of salt, unless you know all the info Laz is speaking of.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by kgbg
I appreciate the offer to help, but I do not see how it could work with your engine. The stroke of your crank, and or the wrist pin height will not jive. I have them in the hands of 10 independant testers as we speak.
But so you know the, Dyno I have is as independant as you can get. One party supplied piston, another supplied head work, a third supplied a cam, and a 4th did the dyno, and none of the above parties are owners of the quad. I am only the suppier of the piston.
I will have mine on a Dyno as soon as my head is back (Monday), and I have my new pipe to test with it.
To repeat: Dyno's are subjective to many things as Laz mentioned. So take it all with a grain of salt, unless you know all the info Laz is speaking of.

ok. I never said that I would use your kit. I know that your kit wouldn't work in my setup. I indicated that I could have it independently tested for ya- that's all. I was just offering. good luck to you.

[kgbg]

Ahh, I misunderstood you. Sorry.
Thanks for the words of luck, I appreciate it.
I would have taken you up on that, but I got it done already!
I will post some Dyno's on here later.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by kgbg
I appreciate the offer to help, but I do not see how it could work with your engine. The stroke of your crank, and or the wrist pin height will not jive. I have them in the hands of 10 independant testers as we speak.
But so you know the, Dyno I have is as independant as you can get. One party supplied piston, another supplied head work, a third supplied a cam, and a 4th did the dyno, and none of the above parties are owners of the quad. I am only the suppier of the piston.
I will have mine on a Dyno as soon as my head is back (Monday), and I have my new pipe to test with it.
To repeat: Dyno's are subjective to many things as Laz mentioned. So take it all with a grain of salt, unless you know all the info Laz is speaking of.

o yea, I remember the "piston order". I think I know who your testers are too.
:ermm:

[#1speedbump]

Yes, kgb is correct. Calvin Potter of CP industries designed the cylinder. I also believe he had a hand in the port layout on the new head but may be wrong.

Dang kgb I see your on all the sites I go to. How will I ever have anything you dont;) Oh well at least I know where you get some of your info. And yes the Sabertooth is one wicked motor. Now if I could just decide......build the 250r or the 450r.

[kgbg]

Chad, I am not sure what your little emoticon is elluding to, but the "testers' paid for those pistons. I gave nothing out, and I asked for nothing but honest reviews.

Here is one with lesser cam, pipe, and bore,
http://www.trx450r.org/forum/uploads/post-696-1100647648.jpg

[chad502ex]

your look'in into it way too much. I'm really not interested in your kit in any way (at this time). This thread was about the NMotion 520r. You are the one who turned the thread into your profiting. Don't get me wrong, I asked for comments and input from everyone, but I was expecting comments on the 520R kit. Understand, that I'm not trying to cause any friction making these statements, I'm just trying to explain further without causing a blow up. I don't want that! I can see that your intention might not be for pure profit and that you may be just providing additional info to the readers (which is kewl), but it does seem to me that your trying to place your kit in front of NMotions and slamming in the process.

Personally, I'd rather pay the extra money knowing that I'd get a bigger cylinder to accomodate the larger displacement- for cooling purposes. Especially, if I'm going from stock to 99mm without any meat left over for cooling after boring.

Seriously, I'm not interested in starting an issue so believe me it's probally better that we discuss an issues off-line in PM.

Thanks for everyones input.:D

chad502ex

[lukester720]

What was the setup on that one KGB?

[Chef]

Originally posted by chad502ex
are you asking me to race or the 520? I should be ready days after xmas with my new 550, I'd line up with ya..

:macho

:D

I'd line up and just a measly 500cc...maybe even 425 if I want to lose a couple strokes.:chinese:

[kgbg]

First, I am glad this was opended up, I felt Chad made me look bad on his last pot, then locked the thread, not allowing me to explain.
I did not turn this thread for my profit, I made comments, and offered an alternative. If I was "turning" this to my profits, I would be charging more money and starting my own threads.
I was not "slamming" Nmotion to put my set up in front of theirs. I complimented their numbers, and their casting company. I only stated a fact, that they suggest using duct tape, a shop vac, and a dremel, as opposed to opening up the case (at least to me they did). I am not comfortable with this, its entirely possible that this is fine and good, but it goes against my thoughts of how you keep an engine free of contaminants.
I would have a Nmotion 520 if it would have been available sooner. I very well could still be getting one in the future.

Luke,
It has HRC cam, stock carb, +2+3 valves, portwork, and a HMF pipe.
I apoligize.

[lukester720]

Thanks KGB!:)

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by chad502ex
Personally, I'd rather pay the extra money knowing that I'd get a bigger cylinder to accomodate the larger displacement- for cooling purposes. Especially, if I'm going from stock to 99mm without any meat left over for cooling after boring.
chad502ex

anyone care to shed any light on this learning experience?

[Bad Habit]

Originally posted by chad502ex
anyone care to shed any light on this learning experience?

What has been learned on this?

How many 99mm cylinders has Mickey Dunlap sold? How many problems has he experienced with taking the stock cylinder to 99mm?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Bad Habit
What has been learned on this?

How many 99mm cylinders has Mickey Dunlap sold? How many problems has he experienced with taking the stock cylinder to 99mm?

Oh, I wasn't even talking about Mickey or anyone specific at all. But doesn't he sell a bigger cyclinder with his piston kit? i'm not for sure on what he offers, but i've heard of issues with big bore without bigger cyclinders

[Bad Habit]

Originally posted by chad502ex
Oh, I wasn't even talking about Mickey or anyone specific at all. But doesn't he sell a bigger cyclinder with his piston kit? i'm not for sure on what he offers, but i've heard of issues with big bore without bigger cyclinders
Mickey uses an oem cylinder and opens up the bore to 99mm. To date, he has not had any issues directly resulting from the stock bore being opened up.

What issues have you heard of with the stock cylinders?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Bad Habit
Mickey uses an oem cylinder and opens up the bore to 99mm. To date, he has not had any issues directly resulting from the stock bore being opened up.

What issues have you heard of with the stock cylinders?

them cracking. surely, you've heard the same BH, haven't you?

[Bad Habit]

Originally posted by chad502ex
them cracking. surely, you've heard the same BH, haven't you?
I've "heard" of two cylinders cracking. One was due to a bad casting flaw inside a water jacket, and the other is still undetermined.



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by chad502ex
Personally, I'd rather pay the extra money knowing that I'd get a bigger cylinder to accomodate the larger displacement- for cooling purposes. Especially, if I'm going from stock to 99mm without any meat left over for cooling after boring.
chad502ex
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



anyone care to shed any light on this learning experience?
If you are trying to use these two isolated incidents as a springboard to tout the oem cylinder as inappropriate, you might be jumping the gun just a little. Once is an accident, twice is a coincedence, if we have a third then we can say there is a trend. With the number of FST 99mm oem cylinders out there, I think we've seen that it is viable.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Bad Habit
I've "heard" of two cylinders cracking. One was due to a bad casting flaw inside a water jacket, and the other is still undetermined.



If you are trying to use these two isolated incidents as a springboard to tout the oem cylinder as inappropriate, you might be jumping the gun just a little. Once is an accident, twice is a coincedence, if we have a third then we can say there is a trend. With the number of FST 99mm oem cylinders out there, I think we've seen that it is viable.

i agree with the trend, but no denying that the stock cyclinder bored to 99 is extremely thin to water jackets. The only point i wanting to make to everyone is that when you consider a big bore without added cooling or better sleeving, a pattern might develop. this could be just the start of us seeing more than a few "isolated incidents".

Thanks for your input BH.
:)

[Bad Habit]

Originally posted by chad502ex
i agree with the trend, but no denying that the stock cyclinder bored to 99 is extremely thin to water jackets. The only point i wanting to make to everyone is that when you consider a big bore without added cooling or better sleeving, a pattern might develop. this could be just the start of us seeing more than a few "isolated incidents".

Thanks for your input BH.
:)
Sure, I'll agree with you that we are pushing things to the ragged edge, what's the fun in playing things safe all the time? I know, it's a sickness, or a bad habit as the name implies.;) These motors are still new and there is much uncharted water with them. We have to push the limits, and sometimes exceed the limits, that's the only way any of us will find out where they are.

I think we can say that 99mm and 12:1 is safe as shown by FST. 99mm and 13.5:1 is still being investigated. Sometimes finding the limits is painfull, but it's a price some of us are willing to pay to help further things for everyone.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Bad Habit
Sure, I'll agree with you that we are pushing things to the ragged edge, what's the fun in playing things safe all the time? I know, it's a sickness, or a bad habit as the name implies.;) These motors are still new and there is much uncharted water with them. We have to push the limits, and sometimes exceed the limits, that's the only way any of us will find out where they are.

I think we can say that 99mm and 12:1 is safe as shown by FST. 99mm and 13.5:1 is still being investigated. Sometimes finding the limits is painfull, but it's a price some of us are willing to pay to help further things for everyone.

yea, I'm in that extreme boat too. I've also taken things to the limit and beyond and have come close to paying ($) the piper too. This is why I wanted to start sharing our experiences with the readers so everyone that reads these forums don't have to follow suit to these "isolated" incidences.

So, from what your saying is that FST's 12:1 99mm piston there hasn't been any claimed issues, but with the 13.5:1 99mm piston there are issues (namely 2). Well, doesn't that implies that the limit would be 12:1 if a trend of 13.5:1 failures start occuring more frequently?

[Bad Habit]

Originally posted by chad502ex
yea, I'm in that extreme boat too. I've also taken things to the limit and beyond and have come close to paying ($) the piper too. This is why I wanted to start sharing our experiences with the readers so everyone that reads these forums don't have to follow suit to these "isolated" incidences.

So, from what your saying is that FST's 12:1 99mm piston there hasn't been any claimed issues, but with the 13.5:1 99mm piston there are issues (namely 2). Well, doesn't that implies that the limit would be 12:1 if a trend of 13.5:1 failures start occuring more frequently?

I do not think that it necessarily implies that 12:1 is the limit, it will mean that the limit is somewhere under 13.5 IF, and I stress if, we have more 13.5:1 99mm failures in a similar fashion. If we do have more then yes, I think we can say that 13.5 99mm is beyond operating limits of the stock cylinder. I feel the jury is still out on them, I am still going to call these two isolated. We don't have enough samplings yet to determine anything yet.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Bad Habit
I do not think that it necessarily implies that 12:1 is the limit, it will mean that the limit is somewhere under 13.5 IF, and I stress if, we have more 13.5:1 99mm failures in a similar fashion. If we do have more then yes, I think we can say that 13.5 99mm is beyond operating limits of the stock cylinder. I feel the jury is still out on them, I am still going to call these two isolated. We don't have enough samplings yet to determine anything yet.


ok- keep sampling and in the mean time we'll watch (heh). I'll stick with my larger custom cyclinder and 12:1 compression.

[kgbg]

I have two other cylinders besides my one that cracked. The other cylinders are fine, and would not be a problem. the casting flaw that caused mine to crack was a few mm (not thousands, mm) thinner in the exact same spot behind the crack.
I think a good inspection would satisfy me in the future.
I can say that I have had a crank with a "casting flaw" and now a cylinder. I realize the cylinder was probably fine in stock configuration, but in realuty it only had a hour on it stock, SO maybe it would have cracked even being stock, who knows. I know that Honda and casting flaws are not usually mentioned in the same sentance, and I can mention it twice, on critical parts.
I really think its a cylinder flaw, not anythng else. But the risk is not worth it for me to offer it as a kit. Many might take another stance looking for the last amount of power.
Your right and I was wrong. I am going to buy a 230 main jet right now.
I will be running a 500 13.5 in my other cylinder, it was ultra sound checked and is alot thicker throughout.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by kgbg
I have two other cylinders besides my one that cracked. The other cylinders are fine, and would not be a problem. the casting flaw that caused mine to crack was a few mm (not thousands, mm) thinner in the exact same spot behind the crack.
I think a good inspection would satisfy me in the future.
I can say that I have had a crank with a "casting flaw" and now a cylinder. I realize the cylinder was probably fine in stock configuration, but in realuty it only had a hour on it stock, SO maybe it would have cracked even being stock, who knows. I know that Honda and casting flaws are not usually mentioned in the same sentance, and I can mention it twice, on critical parts.
I really think its a cylinder flaw, not anythng else. But the risk is not worth it for me to offer it as a kit. Many might take another stance looking for the last amount of power.
Your right and I was wrong. I am going to buy a 230 main jet right now.
I will be running a 500 13.5 in my other cylinder, it was ultra sound checked and is alot thicker throughout.

Look, Kam- don't sit there and try to slam me for making an old signature indicate that I was going to use a 230 main on my 550. That was what I was told at that time of purchase that I would have to start from on my stroker. I've always known from the start that I would have to dial my motor in on the dyno to properly jet, but my error in my signature didn't cause ppl to waste their money buying something that wasn't research thoroughly or done any testing with. Back off man. Don't take any of your aggression out on me. What you could of offered to everyone instead of trying to attack me and divert the attention from you is to offer why these 99mm 13.5:1 piston kits that you are selling are failing- but you hadn't done that as of yet other than the possiblity of some HONDA flaw. Think outside the box, or more bluntly beneath the jug! hint.

[Bad Habit]

Chad, I'm not trying to step in the middle of you and Kam here, but I feel like I need to make some interjections.


Look, Kam- don't sit there and try to slam me for making an old signature indicate that I was going to use a 230 main on my 550. That was what I was told at that time of purchase that I would have to start from on my stroker. I've always known from the start that I would have to dial my motor in on the dyno to properly jet, but my error in my signature didn't cause ppl to waste their money buying something that wasn't research thoroughly or done any testing with.
First, the part about the 230 main in your signature. Come on Chad, how many times did that subject come up and you stated that a 230 main showed perfect (13) on an afr meter? Don't try to back away and make it sound like you merely had a typo in your signature. You say that your signature didn't cause anyone to buy something that was not tested. Well, how much testing did you do with that jetting???? You presented it as fact, many times and it was never even attempted. Face up to this one and take your lumps, dont' try to back pedal.



What you could of offered to everyone instead of trying to attack me and divert the attention from you is to offer why these 99mm 13.5:1 piston kits that you are selling are failing- but you hadn't done that as of yet other than the possiblity of some HONDA flaw.
What do you want to hear Chad? Kam's piston sucks? They are made by a piston company that many people hold as the best in the business. You don't think that HONDA could have had a flaw in a casting? So I guess the dozen or so crank failures that happened were user error? Your are absolutely busting at the seams to pronounce your build as better (even tho it is untested as well) and you insinuate that this other option is flawed. Now you are wondering why you feel you are being attacked? Don't dance around and say that you are trying to inform everyone. You brought up and quoted and old post of yours to basically say "I told you so, I'm right, you're wrong". Don't deny it.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Bad Habit
Chad, I'm not trying to step in the middle of you and Kam here, but I feel like I need to make some interjections.


First, the part about the 230 main in your signature. Come on Chad, how many times did that subject come up and you stated that a 230 main showed perfect (13) on an afr meter? Don't try to back away and make it sound like you merely had a typo in your signature. You say that your signature didn't cause anyone to buy something that was not tested. Well, how much testing did you do with that jetting???? You presented it as fact, many times and it was never even attempted. Face up to this one and take your lumps, dont' try to back pedal.



What do you want to hear Chad? Kam's piston sucks? They are made by a piston company that many people hold as the best in the business. You don't think that HONDA could have had a flaw in a casting? So I guess the dozen or so crank failures that happened were user error? Your are absolutely busting at the seams to pronounce your build as better (even tho it is untested as well) and you insinuate that this other option is flawed. Now you are wondering why you feel you are being attacked? Don't dance around and say that you are trying to inform everyone. You brought up and quoted and old post of yours to basically say "I told you so, I'm right, you're wrong". Don't deny it.

How could I ever claim that the 230 main was fact if I don't even have my motor together? You clearly misunderstood. I've never tested with 230. How could I claim that if everyone here knows that I havn't even assembled my freeg'n motor yet?

Never said those pistons suck. JE pistons are the best! However, let me reiterate- I've always thought that a 13.5:1 99mm piston bore to much on stock jug. You must have one of these piston too, right?

I never proclaimed that my stroker is better either. Just where did I state that?

None of what you say above is true at all.....

But now that you mentioned it, I am busting at the seams now that you both are the ones having these problems.:devil:

[Bad Habit]

Originally posted by chad502ex
None of what you say above is true at all.....

But now that you mentioned it, I am busting at the seams now that you both are the ones having these problems.:devil:

None of that is true? You know I can quote you if needed, you don't want to go there.

Oh, and by the way, no problems here. How's yours running?

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Bad Habit
None of that is true? You know I can quote you if needed, you don't want to go there.

Oh, and by the way, no problems here. How's yours running?

I'll let ya know next week, better yet, I won't have to cause you'll be here from .org reading our post as usual.

[86atc250r]

How could I ever claim that the 230 main was fact if I don't even have my motor together?

Chad ---- I'm going to be frank here.

You ever wonder why arguments follow you around?

Here's a quote:

You posted this in response to someone questioning you running a 230 main in your quad:


question if you want, but a dyno sniffer test that indicates a "13" air/fuel mixture running a 230 main should clear up any of your confusion on my jetting. Shoot, even the stock 42mm carb is too small for my thumper, which is why I plan to eventually install a 48mm

That sounds like a clear indication that you had hard data from your yet unbuilt, untested 550R.

You also posted a few other things that indicated that you had (and may still have) no idea how jetting and carburetors REALLY work. I can post your quotes if you like, but if I had typed that stuff up, I'd be too embarrassed to call me out on it.

My suggestion to you is to quit being so cocky. There are several very knowlegeable folks that can rip your misguided statements apart, piece by piece --- and have...

Several of us have held back over the course of the last couple years, but your attitude, your posturing, your badmouthing, and your gall are really growing quite old at this point.

You've got a lot to learn. The fact that you put togther a 502cc 400EX and are building a 550cc 450R does NOT necessarily make you an expert at anything but spending cash...

Keep that in mind and you'll end up in a lot fewer arguments and you will make yourself look bad far less often.

As far as your reference to .org --- are you upset? Does it bother you that you were banned from the best ATV tech site on the net? Have you stopped to think WHY you were banned from that site (there are a lot of level headed folks over there and none stood up to defend you when the process went down)? Have you thought about how petty it makes you look when you badmouth that site considering what has transpired?

Merry Christmas :rolleyes: The new year is upon us -- time to turn over a new leaf ---- you know what they say --- "The empty can rattles the most", maybe it's time to stop rattling so much.

[kgbg]

Chad,
Where do I start with you......
I will not get into name calling.
This is the original post when I ordered pistons. So don't tell me I made people waste their money , or I misrepresented it.


I am not making any money on this deal. I am strictly doing this so I can get the piston I want and not have to order 5 for my self. I will not assume any responsibility for these pistons either. This will reduce ring life, will increase head pressure, will require race gas (110), and will not last as long as stock. I take no responsibility for your engine, just because you bought a piston through me.

I could have said nothing and just figured that the other guys would be ok. I had some money for more of these. I lost money by having to cancel the order. I have been sending PM's like crazy trying to make sure everyone is understanding completely what is happening. I was planning on switching gears to selling them, becasue it worked so well, but there was another plan for me. I have been completely honest from the get go on this. I have hid nothing.

I do not have agression, and definetly was not taking it out on you. I simply was sending back a little bit of your dry humor (heh) :ermm: . If you want to see agression, I would be happy to show you some. You and I both know what you posted about the AFR .Until Bad Habit called you out and said, I thought you were still building it, you were sticking to your guns that the AFR meter said 230. You look foolish trying to change the story now, espicially since I went and reread your posts.

I know you think the cylinder is not flawed, but it is, and that was the reason for the failure. No one was gong to get their money back anyway, I told them that from the beginning, so what do I have to gain by saying it was something it was not?



Merry Christmas to all.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by 86atc250r
Merry Christmas :rolleyes: The new year is upon us -- time to turn over a new leaf ---- you know what they say --- "The empty can rattles the most", maybe it's time to stop rattling so much.

First off, in the pulled quote; I was saying that a 13 a/f dyno reading would clear up any confusion about a 230 being needed. I did say "my" because, once again, that was what i was being told at that time of purchase what main the 550 would require. Obviously, I won't be taking any word for it- I'll have to dyno it to find out what it really needs. Are you suggesting that NMotion doesn't know what works on their setup? Cause this mainjet is what they suggested to use on their big valve 520 kit which is close to my 550. We will find out eventually- and that really is no big deal to me what the motor jetting needs to use. If that's the only way you can hit on what i say- well that's ok with me.

It's funny, the ppl who have something to say about my attitude and/or posturing are the same ones who are trying to build a motor better than mine. Anytime I post anything its usually the same individuals who post a reply attacking my every word. This thread is an example. Ppl my words are far from gospel, you ought to take lessons from the ppl who are using epoxy on thier intake to increase velocity. Velocity doesn't help hp, it helps torque. there's always someone trying to knock ya off the podium. If spending cash is all I know, then why can you not build a better one? At least I know what cash to spend and what works. my 502 is probally the oldest 400 you'll see and it'll still whip ya up.

Gabe, why are you the one coming from .org to defend them? If anything they have lessons to learn about boring a stock cylinder to 99mm without even thinking about the side load from the rod angle that a 13.5:1 piston would have on thin walls. That is why these cylinders are cracking- especially up at 10 grand rpm. But you knew this already.

Look, I have no problem with anyone including you, but I won't just sit back and listen to ppl "hitting" on my every word without me reacting to it. Other than .org "censoring" me from having and posting an opinion, have I ever reacted negatively to your posts or threads for you to show your colors to me? I'd hope you'd answer that honestly- no I havn't. But I really don't care about the banning especially since there are other ppl posting dumb things and they are not being banned. Just goes to show me that someone fears what I say.

Merry Christmas to you too!:rolleyes:

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by kgbg
Chad,
Where do I start with you......
I will not get into name calling.
This is the original post when I ordered pistons. So don't tell me I made people waste their money , or I misrepresented it.



I could have said nothing and just figured that the other guys would be ok. I had some money for more of these. I lost money by having to cancel the order. I have been sending PM's like crazy trying to make sure everyone is understanding completely what is happening. I was planning on switching gears to selling them, becasue it worked so well, but there was another plan for me. I have been completely honest from the get go on this. I have hid nothing.

I do not have agression, and definetly was not taking it out on you. I simply was sending back a little bit of your dry humor (heh) :ermm: . If you want to see agression, I would be happy to show you some. You and I both know what you posted about the AFR .Until Bad Habit called you out and said, I thought you were still building it, you were sticking to your guns that the AFR meter said 230. You look foolish trying to change the story now, espicially since I went and reread your posts.

I know you think the cylinder is not flawed, but it is, and that was the reason for the failure. No one was gong to get their money back anyway, I told them that from the beginning, so what do I have to gain by saying it was something it was not?



Merry Christmas to all.

I sincerly "commend you for being stand up fella" on this Kam. Not many would- you are the exception. I'd also like to say that I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. I could see your excitement. I also share a similiar excitement and cross my fingers too.

BTW, what was the date on that post I made about the 230? Wasn't like like months ago when the 550r was in development. I have the parts now, and since you are a disbeliever I'll post pics for you tonite.

I apologize if you misconstrued my posts. If you look back in this post i never intentially tried to point you out, but I have to admit that everytime I see folks from .org here attacking my every word I get somewhat defensive and make "hidden" remarks. I know who the .org members are too. I plan on not doing this as much if I get a recipical response.

But Kam, the reason why these cylinders are cracking with 13.5:1 99mm pistons in stock cylinder is due to the rod angle placing huge loads on thin walled cylinders which causes the cylinder to flex and crack. Sorry man, but your wrong with your casting flaw theory. Unfortunately, I'm the bad guy cause I'm the only person telling you this. Even your so called .org experts don't have this theory or are not nice enough to tell you.

[86atc250r]

It's funny, the ppl who have something to say about my attitude and/or posturing are the same ones who are trying to build a motor better than mine.

Don't be disillusioned... I have no interest "building a better ENGINE (motors are electric) than you".

I built my engine long before you announced to the world your intentions - my intent wasn't to try to impress anyone with big numbers, only to add performance to an already good platform.


Velocity doesn't help hp, it helps torque

And what exactly is HP? If you increase torque at a given RPM, what happens to HP?

You're comparing the equivalent of amperage to watts - an illogical and irrelevent comparison.


If spending cash is all I know, then why can you not build a better one?

Addressed above. What gives you the idea I'm in some sort of race with you on who can build the "Best" engine --- also ---- define "Better".

What gives you the idea that your yet unbuilt engine will be "better" than my engine that's been running for months (and only had a few hours of downtime while I pulled the cylinder off and reinstalled it?).

My engine is pretty tame, just the way I want it. All bolt on parts, no head work at all, pump gas. Hasn't been opened for months. It's still got tons of potential if I choose to release it.

Best part is, I rode mine all spring, summer, and fall -- it wasn't apart and sitting on a bench --- (like some bikes and their owners, talking about racing and engines)

I'd dare to say my engine was better back in September, October, November too -- heck, I'll even go as far as to say my RUNNING engine is even "better" TODAY.

There's no way you could even pay me to stroke this engine to worsen it's rod ratio & to lower it's RPM potential ---- one of the great things about this engine is the breadth of it's power. This engine is already "stroked" by CRF standards and look at the width of it's powerband compared to the CRF if you don't know where I'm going. Heck, look at the width of it's power compared to a mildly modified YFZ.


Gabe, why are you the one coming from .org to defend them? If anything they have lessons to learn about boring a stock cylinder to 99mm without even thinking about the side load from the rod angle that a 13.5:1 piston would have on thin walls. That is why these cylinders are cracking- especially up at 10 grand rpm. But you knew this already

I've posted here for years. I was the very first member of this messageboard back when Leo started it. I visit messageboards all over the web. I'm not "coming from" anywhere.

I'm not defending anyone, but your comments as of late required a response - you reap what you sew.

There you go making assumptions.

Guess what you're stroker's going to do to the rod angle and side load. How big are you boring again? How much does your piston weigh? How long is the rod you'll be using?

I know of several 500's that are doing fine, even with aftermarket 11.5krpm rev-limiters.

Do you know what side of the cylinder KGB & 29''s cracked on? Do you know why where it cracked makes a difference in part of the analysis process? Do you know why your theory is flawed? I've given several hints...


Sorry man, but your wrong with your casting flaw theory.

You don't have even remotely enough information to be making any kind of analysis of what happened --- yet alone telling the person with the cylinder in his hands that he is definitively and without doubt, wrong.

Some other wild guesses we could speculate on: it could have been due to additional clearance in the cylinder due to the original plating, which was spec'd out for FST's piston.

Heck, it could have even been detonation...


Other than .org "censoring" me from having and posting an opinion, have I ever reacted negatively to your posts or threads for you to show your colors to me?

I'm just sick of the way you're presenting yourself.

The reason you were banned from .org is because you were warned numerous times for being argumentive among other things ---- argumentive because you weren't included in the pipe giveaway (you turned real sour directly after it was made public that you weren't included - so don't even go there...). Not one single person stood up for you - that says a lot about how you presented yourself.

.org prides itself on stopping flame wars and the types of pointless posting that drives away it's most technically inclined members. If that means "censoring" (aka, removing argumentive posts --- noting that argumentive does not mean counter points with technically solid info to back them up) then so be it. Also keep in mind that you are the only person that has had to be banned that I'm aware of - not something to be proud of.

I'm not showing colors at all --- I'm expressing my dislike for the way you have conducted yourself over the last few months - that's all.

I don't hold grudges against people -- I have years of history on several messageboards to prove it. I hope that you would chill out with the attitude and we could talk in a civil manner ---- take this not as criticism or a flaming, but a wake up call, that's how it was intended. Sometimes it takes a strong post to get someone's attention.

[Admin]

I think everyone has stated their point of view, and I feel it is best that this thread be closed before it gets too far out of hand.

Also, I asked those that disagree with each others view point whether right or wrong to move forward and let things rest.