416 already seized..

[hondarider2006]

Well about a month ago during a MX race I stalled my quad, and when I went to start it again there was nothing but blue smoke rolling out of the exhaust. I let it sit for a while and it fired back up, and ran 100%, up until last night......I was on my way home and the motor locked up. It just started to die, so I pulled in the clutch and I could hear the motor come to a dead stop, thinking I might have been out of gas I slightly let the clutch out, and when the wheels didn't spin, I knew it had seized. I am just going to go up to a 426 if nothing else is shot. Right now I am running a 416 JE piston, 10.8:1 compression, hot cams stage 2, cosmetic base gasket and stock head gasket. With the 426, what will I need to upgrade??

[BOONE450R]

you might find out why it did before you up and go bigger,to lean?oil?

[hondarider2006]

Originally posted by BOONE450R
you might find out why it did before you up and go bigger,to lean?oil?

It has oil. I don't think lean is an issue...somthing to do with rings I think.

[K_Fulk]

Maybe your oil pump is bad? Your motor shouldnt take a dump that quick there is probly something causing it to go bad.

[hondarider2006]

Originally posted by K_Fulk
Maybe your oil pump is bad? Your motor shouldnt take a dump that quick there is probly something causing it to go bad.

5 years old, that is possible. Is there a way I can check it, or should I just replace it??

[K_Fulk]

You can rebuild them there might be a seal or gear bad in there or some thing.

Have you tore the motor apart yet? To see if you can tell where it started.

[hondarider2006]

Well I got the top end apart, piston isn't that bad, but it did seize up. I was VERY low on oil, I guess I learned the hard way. The piston is like welded onto the rod....And I cannot get the pin out to take the piston off. I will probably end up buying a new rod. Should I go with a stock rod with the 426? I plan on going as low as compression as possible with the Ross 426 piston, just in case that matters. God this sucks.....about two months and I am already re-building:(

[cals400ex]

i would definately figure out why it failed. low oil could have been the problem like you mentioned. just remember, the ross 426 only comes in 11:1. you would need to get a special cut piston to lower the compression. also, make sure you use 20-50 or at least 15-50. these 426's run than stock, or mine does even with race gas.

those pins in the piston/rod usually are hard to get out. take a deepwell socket about the size of that pin and punch it out with a hammer holding the rod so your not beating the heck out of it.

that stinks your already rebuilding.

[TSRACING]

I had a 426 built by Engine Tech a company out of ohio (they built the foot pegs, seat latch, and skid plates for the 400 project bike)

Wiseco piston 11.0:1 Compression
Hot Cam stage 1
H.D. Cam chain
3 angle valve job
and KICK *** PORTING JOB

Very fast and reliable

http://WWW.ENGINETECHATV.COM

[ny300exrider]

man good luck with the rebuild it seems like motors lose so much reliablilty after being bored and stuff. maybe its just theres alot of things that can go wrong if you dont maintain it good. goods luck with the 426 i heard thats a pretty good setup

this is a good reason why i like stock engines

[Florida400EX]

You messed up installing it somewhere, I run the piss out of my 416, with constant WOT, and it has yet to show signs of wear yet. It also may not be seized, there could be a siezed bearing somewhere, 5 year old engine could use a full rebuild, not just the topend.

[hondarider2006]

well it looks like I will be doing a complete rebuild....the piston like is welded to the rod. I think it has somthing to do with running out of oil...I didn't even get like half a quart out when I drained it. Just what I was afraid of:(

[K_Fulk]

If you never plan on going to high on compression just get a stock rod or a hot rod.

If you do get a corillo or stroke it with a heavy duty rod.

[TCracin440ex]

if its your oil dude then you need to find out if its leaking or not...because it leaking oil like that will mess up a motor with the quickness

[F-16Guy]

I'm not 100% sure I'm right, but I think the piston and wrist pin are lubricated by an oil bath; that is to say there is no direct pressure from the pump going to these components. They're lubricated and cooled by oil splashing up on them from the movement of the crank. If you were low on oil and running it hard (or even moderately hard), you would have some serious heating and lube problems. If you didn't have major scoring from the piston or rings, you can probably rule out piston clearance and ring end gap. Sounds like things just got too hot. If you're going to do the rod, spend the extra $100 for the Carrillo rod. You never have to worry if it's going to come apart if you rev too high or run high compression.

[TCracin440ex]

i think what it is why he was low on oil is because....the oil rezzy only holds like a quart of oil....well he proally filled the canister up and forgot to crank the bike and let it run for a few secs to get the oil out of the canister into the motor....and thats why it was low on earl. my 400ex holds 2 and a half quarts


i dunno

[hondarider2006]

Originally posted by TCracin440ex
if its your oil dude then you need to find out if its leaking or not...because it leaking oil like that will mess up a motor with the quickness

It was leaking out of the valvle cover....Looks like I will be replacing the rod, piston, getting it bored out, and probably some new crank bearings. yay, how fun:(

[hondarider2006]

Alright I just got off the phone with my dealer...he can get me a hotrod crank and rod, complete with bearings for around $380. Sound like an ok deal, or should I call up C&D on monday?

[F-16Guy]

Originally posted by hondarider2006
Alright I just got off the phone with my dealer...he can get me a hotrod crank and rod, complete with bearings for around $380. Sound like an ok deal, or should I call up C&D on monday?
He can get you the parts, but if that's not the installed price, it doesn't do you much good; you probably don't need the crank anyway. I don't even want to think about how much a dealer would charge to tear apart the bottom end. You're better off buying the crank bearings and a complete gasket set from Service Honda, a rod directly from Carrillo Industries, the piston kit from C&D, and having a good local shop (possibly C&D if you're close) do the work. After all is said and done, you'll have a fresh, strong motor for a good price. There's really no "cheap" way out of something like that, but if you buy the parts seperately from the cheapest places and have a local place put it together, you can save a lot of money considering what was done. Personally, I think it's much easier just to check the oil before every ride.:devil:

[K_Fulk]

Originally posted by hondarider2006
Alright I just got off the phone with my dealer...he can get me a hotrod crank and rod, complete with bearings for around $380. Sound like an ok deal, or should I call up C&D on monday?

For another 150 you could send your crank to powroll and get it stroked and there heavy duty rod. Those hot rods arent much stronger than stock.

[cals400ex]

whats involved with installing the crank? is that something you can do yourself or do you need special tools/equipment?

[Rootar]

this makes me want to check my oil every ride instead of evry couple

[quadkrazy400ex]

^^^^ me too.. :D

[K_Fulk]

Originally posted by cals400ex
whats involved with installing the crank? is that something you can do yourself or do you need special tools/equipment?

I think you need a press. Ive never seen anyone do it in person always sent it out.

[cals400ex]

Originally posted by K_Fulk
I think you need a press. Ive never seen anyone do it in person always sent it out.

that is what i was wondering. some say you need one, others don't. i wasn't sure.

[hondarider2006]

Do the hot rod cranks come with the rod already pressed onto them?? I was thinking about going with the hot rod crank and rod, Wiseco 440 kit, that comes complete with the piston, sleve, gaskets, and all of taht good stuff for about $600 total, maybe a little less. Than just have my local motor shop re-sleve the cylinder. Why would I need them to rebuild it for me??? I don't think you would need a press if the rod already comes pressed onto the crank??

[Toadz400]

Originally posted by hondarider2006
Do the hot rod cranks come with the rod already pressed onto them?? I was thinking about going with the hot rod crank and rod, Wiseco 440 kit, that comes complete with the piston, sleve, gaskets, and all of taht good stuff for about $600 total, maybe a little less. Than just have my local motor shop re-sleve the cylinder. Why would I need them to rebuild it for me??? I don't think you would need a press if the rod already comes pressed onto the crank??

I believe with the HotRod cranks the rod comes pressed, I have a HotRod crank in my Banshee right now and I don't believe we had to do anything before we put it in. Still runs good?:D

[hondarider2006]

Alright than I think I am going to go with that set-up, and get the whole new crank just to be safe. I mean it has 5 years of hard riding, so I don't see it doing anything bad, and if I am going to punch it up to a 440, than the extra reliability will be nice. If anyone has any input on this set up, I would like to hear it. How reliable is it going to be(and yes I am going to check my oil every ride from now on...)

Here is what I plan on buying, and installing:

Hot Rod crank & Rod
Wiseco 440 11:1 piston kit w/ cosmetic base and head gaskets

I already have a hot cam stage II with the stiffer valve springs, and a rev box. With the 440, will I need to be worrying about anything, like what do I need to watch the closest? Thanks guys again for everything!

[TCracin440ex]

if your going 440 then do 12.5:1 ratio or a 13:1 ratio because that heavy duty rod wont break like a stocker

[hondarider2006]

Originally posted by TCracin440ex
if your going 440 then do 12.5:1 ratio or a 13:1 ratio because that heavy duty rod wont break like a stocker


I still want to run pump gas;)

[TCracin440ex]

12.5:1 u can run pump gas but it wont run as good as it will with 110 octane. u can always run a 110/93 mix...but the 12.5:1 with a heavy duty rod u wont have anything to worrie about

[oste]

Wow... Who quoted you the price for a Hot rod kit at $380.00? They must be sniffing too much glue or something!! You should be able to get the Carrillo rod for around $180-200, if you want that and a 4mm stroke, then it should be in the $300-400 range. Hot rod's are way cheaper in price than Carrillo's. I'd deffinetly go the Carrillo stroker combo though, you won't be disappointed! :cool:

[Toadz400]

Originally posted by hondarider2006
With the 440, will I need to be worrying about anything, like what do I need to watch the closest? Thanks guys again for everything!

Upgrade the studs, with some 440's they pull right out or snap because of the increase in torque. Do a search, I know they've talked about who makes good head studs.

[F-16Guy]

Originally posted by oste
Wow... Who quoted you the price for a Hot rod kit at $380.00? They must be sniffing too much glue or something!! You should be able to get the Carrillo rod for around $180-200, if you want that and a 4mm stroke, then it should be in the $300-400 range. Hot rod's are way cheaper in price than Carrillo's. I'd deffinetly go the Carrillo stroker combo though, you won't be disappointed! :cool:
Carrillo doesn't make a shorter rod for the 400ex (required for a stroker). If you want a stroker, have Powroll do it. They take the stock rod and compress it to the correct length, which also strengthens it considerably. I don't think a stroker is really the way to go on this engine for two reasons: 1) This engine makes great torque in the first place, stroking it would only limit RPMs and add torque to an already torquey engine. 2) Most riders don't know how to use an engine with that much torque. Almost everyone I know rides a four stroke like a two stroke, so to limit RPMs by stroking the engine seems counter-productive. If I were you, I'd just buy a Carrillo rod direct from Carrillo for $175 and have it installed on your old crank. Why pay for a crank when you don't need one? For the piston, I would get the next overbore if possible (I don't know if you have the 88.5mm piston or not), or get a new sleeve from NW Sleeve and have it installed and bored and finish-honed for your new piston.

[hondarider2006]

So going with the Hot Rod is pretty much a waste? My dealer got me the price on it...but I figured my dad was paying for it, so why not;) I am pretty set on the 440 kit from wiseco...so I am heading in that direction. As far as the crank and rod goes...not 100% sure on that. Is there anything bad about the hot rods? Or are they a pretty descent company? Btw here are some pics of the piston and quad.

[hondarider2006]

The piston is like welded in this position...God this sucks:mad:

[hondarider2006]

This thing looks so pitafull without her heart and soal:(

[F-16Guy]

Dude, you have some nasty cracks there. You might want to address that before you dump a bunch of money into a rebuild.

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/attachment.php?s=&postid=1252307

[F-16Guy]

Honestly, you may be better off buying a good used engine off of eBay, or here if you can find one. I would rather start fresh than worry about how long my cracked, basket case engine was going to last (no offense). You'd be better off starting with a stock bore and going to a 416 or 426, IMO, and if you ever had to, you could go up to a 440 later. If you're going to stick with this engine, get some new crank bearings and a Carrillo rod instead of replacing a part you don't need (the crank). A word to the wise: stay away from dealers!! They do average work at above average prices.

[Toadz400]

I agree with F-16, it's only a matter of time until those cracks catch up to you, probably split your case right in half. Find a nice used engine off of eBay or on this site and start over new.

Btw, this also gives you some time to clean up your frame and paint it;) .

[QuadJunkies]

that really sucks. Weve been there with two of our Quads :( I have had nothing but great results with my 426.Best of luck to you :)

[hondarider2006]

Well mom and dad decided to make me pay for half...looks like she will be down for a good 2-3 months or so....I think I made a mistake in dumping almost 4k into it this summer:mad:

[TCracin440ex]

this might be worth a try...get your parents to buy you the motor and get the motor work done and you make payments back to them instead of having to pay it all in 1 big lump sum. just an idea....

[hondarider2006]

Originally posted by TCracin440ex
this might be worth a try...get your parents to buy you the motor and get the motor work done and you make payments back to them instead of having to pay it all in 1 big lump sum. just an idea....

Man I tried that, but they arn't wanting to go for that. So you guys think I should go and buy a new/used motor?? Also what cracks are you talking about?? I am gonna go take a look at it right now...I will probably end up just buying a used one, MAYBE I will be lucky and come across an already built 416 or 440 or somthing;)

[Aceman]

The cracks are up and to the right of the crank in the first picture you posted. It probably would be cheaper to find a used motor instead of replacing a case half and bunch of other parts to get this one running again. Your picture doesn't show it but I wonder if your other case half has cracks in it like the one in the picture does?

[hondarider2006]

I went and looked at the cases and saw the cracks. I see what you guys are talking about. I believe I will be looking for a new/used motor:cool:

[K_Fulk]

I may be looking to sell mine in 2 to 3 months.

[TCracin440ex]

check ebay for a cheap used motor that stilll runs...might not be able to rebuilt now, but it will keep you ridding until you rack up enuff green again to get motor work redone

i think if i was you id do the stock motor option and be able to ride instead of having no motor at all and not bein able to ride...

i would also go with like a 426ex kit instead of the 440...get you a cam, some port and polish work done, and your set dude

[hondarider2006]

Alright guys, well a guy has a TC425(Pappys old motor;) for $800, my dad gave me the cash for it last night, now i just gotta get a price on shipping!!

[EPDP99]

I have a corrillo rod in my quad and its a stroker. if you go with that option get the rod. on the stroker they change the pin location of the rod on the crank, thats why i got a corrillo rod and stroker kit. Mine is on the big side though. Race gas is what the ad says but trinity racing told me av gas was plenty. I broke it in on race but now run av and still got all the power.

[hondarider2006]

Originally posted by EPDP99
I have a corrillo rod in my quad and its a stroker. if you go with that option get the rod. on the stroker they change the pin location of the rod on the crank, thats why i got a corrillo rod and stroker kit. Mine is on the big side though. Race gas is what the ad says but trinity racing told me av gas was plenty. I broke it in on race but now run av and still got all the power.

Thanks for in the info man, but I don't think I will be rebuilding that motor. I am in the needs of a built motor for sale:cool: