My 416 review........:(

[JhallettEX]

Well I just got back from Little Sahara and I am not to happy with my 416, xr400 cam, and 39mm FCR carb. I thaught you guys were all sayin that a 416 w/ xr400 cam would beat Raptors, DS650's, and piped Banshess..! Well the only thing I could beat there were stock shees with no mods what so ever. I even have the new carb so I was thinkin she was going to kill alot more than just that. Do I have something wrong here or what? I guess she is just going to need a little more money put into her before the season starts. Let me know waht you think. Thanks

[JhallettEX]

Also, just to let you know, I am getting my head ported and polished here in about a month, Also what size sprockets should I be using now. I am running the stockers now!. Thanks

[shook]

You may even want to try a different pipe not taking any thing away froma white bros pipe I run one to but will soon be changing to either the HETRICK, SPARKS X6,or DUNCAN FATBOY4 possibly a tc slip on as you can see I have some deciding to do.I am also getting ready to bore it to a 425.

416 w/ xr400 cam would beat Raptors, DS650's, and piped Banshess..! Well the only thing I could beat there were stock shees with no mods what so ever.

Well JhallettEX I think you see what the problem is when you race with a under cc'd engine and are giving up over 200 cc's.

Was this all straight line drag racing?

If you were beating stock shee's and you were not before the mods then you are on the right path.

What other circumstances were involved (ex. what gear started in, missed gears other driver errors etc.) and how badly were you beaten by the other machines.

You may just be expecting too much from the 416 and believe a lot of the second hand info on here about it. Sounds like you have some good work into that motor and may just need to pump up the cc's some more or go to extremes with compression and cams etc.

Also the XR400 cam is not that big of a deal (I know I am gonna hear some #%@ about this) if you compare the specs I think you were expecting a lot from it.




Also what size sprockets should I be using now

This depends on a lot of things and mostly your preference.

Were you hitting the rev limiter through 4th or 5th gear?? how quicly does first and second rev out (loose power not just hit the limiter)

Next time riding think about: could I use a little higher gearing in first but still be ok when riding in very close quarters or rough hilly terrain.

Keep in mind with gearing changes that the 400EX is not designed for drag races or for top end speed but rather as a extremely well handling machine. Knowing this keep in mind where you will use the power most and in what rpm ranges you will be using/ needing.

Hope that helps.

Oh and look into the big bore kits

[JhallettEX]

This was straight line drag racin.....I would start out in 2nd gear becuase 1st would rev out before you even started, there was no error from any drivers, I would hit the rev limiter in 4th and somtimes I think even 3rd gear, I cant remember. I know that you arent going to expect that much from a xr400 cam but I didnt have the money at the time to go with another cam and also get new rockers etc. What kinda gains should I expect from a port and polish and should I consider getting a different header. My stocker has been modified and I don't think this mod would be needed all that bad. Thanks for your help.

Cam specs borrowed from another post (mostly) and thanks to Matt Fischer.

lift intake lift exhaust
dur intake dur exhaust
__________________________________________________ _________
XR's at .
326 .321
240 244.

WB All around a bit more lift than the XR, but similar duration.
.345", .335",
240deg, 248deg.


Megacycle's 196-x1 runs increased lift and duration over the WB all around
.346 .346
.246 .246 @ .040

Web 450/451- still a great all-around cam. . This is a very popular drop-in cam, as it is also marketed by GT Thunder, and White Bros as their Track cam.

.350 .345
256 256 @ .050

Web 479 cam. Less duration than the Web 450/451 (aka GT Thunder or WBros Track) cam, but with more lift
(.378) (.378)
250 @ .050


On hardfacing: Web makes the 450/451, the same cam as GT Thunder's, and WBros Track. While GTT and WBros say it's a drop in cam, Web says you must hardface the rockers. So who's right?
__________________________________________________ __


As you can see the XR400 cam is just not all that or all that large of a cam. I am not sure which of the ones listed or the many like them not listed would be best for your application but as you can see there are many available cams with more lift and duration than the xr.

Maybe some other here with these other cams can offer some input on their experiences.

This was straight line drag racin.....I would start out in 2nd gear becuase 1st would rev out before you even started, there was no error from any drivers, I would hit the rev limiter in 4th and somtimes I think even 3rd gear, I cant remember. I know that you arent going to expect that much from a xr400 cam but I didnt have the money at the time to go with another cam and also get new rockers etc. What kinda gains should I expect from a port and polish and should I consider getting a different header. My stocker has been modified and I don't think this mod would be needed all that bad. Thanks for your help.

In the drag race (where torque is the deal in the beginning and HP in the top end) were you ahead in the begining?

When hitting the rev limiter in the higher gears was the engine still pulling hard or had it lost some of the power it had in lower rpms?

As far as the cam and "new rockers" I understand where you are on this. I am shopping a cam right now and am considering "chancing " the rockers as they seem pretty hard, the cam lobes are not all that hard and the damn rockers are less$$ than the hard facing. I amy be wrong on this thought so I can not recomend it but I have decided that I am going to chance it and after everything is in and has some run time I will post the results .

Porting will open up the breathing of the engine and should give some very good results. the head on the 400EX has some good restrictions that can be opened up. With the mods you have listed I would expect a decent boost to your mid and top end. Its not like Nitrous but you will feel the difference.

I am running my 440 w/ the stock modified header and do not feel that I am loosing anything in power from it. If you have modded the welds on the pipe you have allready opened it up much more than the ID of the exhaust port on the head. depending on how much of the weld you removed you may even have made it larger than the exhaust gaskets.

I think you should get a new fourwheeler:confused: :devil :( :grr :huh

[JhallettEX]

I think you should go to another site dip****!

[MIKE400EX]

Porting will not make much of a difference until you put a bigger cam in. The XR cam is your current bottle-neck. The XR cam is a great all-around pick-me-up, especially in the mid range. Drag racing usually requires mid-top HP. A GTT(450/451) or similar spec cam would serve you better for drag racing - BUT you will give up some bottom end. It's all a trade off. BTW. if your mods kept up with a stock Shee in a drag race, that says they made a big difference in your EX!

[JhallettEX]

Just to let you all know, I mostly MX race but every once in a while go to the dunes for the drag racin and playin around. What cam is going to be better for me to have? I don't want my bike set up for draggin, I want ti set up for MX but I still want the speed to spank quads when I go to the dunes. Thanks

[Blackguywithouta400]

Well i guess i would say that you should do a couple of things, i am in the same boat as you are. I did have alot better luck at the dunes then you did beating raptors and such. I would go with a full exhaust system, the porting will help make the Carb that much better, the bigger cam will also do the trick.

This should help you out:

HRC Copy cam from Xr's only, This is the cam that profile Honda specs for upgrading the XR400 dirt bike, it runs on stock rockers and will give you all the mid and low end with a lot more top end.
I am ordering this cam myself.

Porting the head really will help to some degree when the bottle neck becomes the valves, the intake valves are already bigger then the exhaust so some head work will be needed all the way around. My head is ported but im only running the stock carb for now, ill soon be going to the FCR and HRC cam this should provide the power you want. In your case you would want a Bigger Cam & Porting this should still let you have the low end you like but also give you enough power to pull 16th front to the max and give you the top end you want out at the dunes.

[CranMan]

I'm surprised you can't beat stock raptors...I gave one a good run for his money before I did my 416. It sounds to me that you should change your gearing, you should have plenty of torque to pull a 16t front sprocket, and you'll pick up alot of top end speed. It also seems like you really don't want to just drag race, so don't be dissapointed yet until you see how she performs at the MX track against those same bikes you dragged. I'ts not often that you can be the best all-around....

[knighttime]

Also did u switch quads between different riders when drag racing. This is not a flame ;) , but there are techniques to drag racing that will improve your chances of winning.:eek:

[Rocket29]

Ive got the TC pipe, MX cam, Porting by MP racing, and a ICM off a Xr250R, JE 10.5:1 piston... I seem to be way ahead of raptors, some 250R's.

if you dont mind losing alittle on bottem end the HRC cam is in my opinion an extremely good cam for top end. my bottom end isnt terrible but i was expecting more bottem than what i ended up with. it is sufficant but i was expecting a "torque monster" and ended up with a 2 stroke like power band. BTW i haven't lost to a stock raptor yet. im running right beside piped ones within 1 or 2 bike lenghts at top speed. which im expecting my bottom end to pick up when i get rid of these huge xc's im running.

[VegasEx'r]

Hey guys, good info so far. I justy want to add my .02. I installed my 416 (see sig below) about 6 weeks ago and am quite happy with it. My favorite type of riding is at the dunes, and there I have tried a 14, 15 & 16t sprocket. I have found that a 14t works best, starting in 2nd. Yeah, the top end is lower, but how often do you get a chance to run 5th gear full throttle? The other thing I've found is that weight makes a HUGE difference. I have a friend w/ a stock Raptor, and when we raced up comp hill (at Dumont), he beats me by 3-4 bikes. He also weighs 100 lbs. less than I do. When we swiched quads, he beat me by 8-9 bike lenghts. We put a third guy (who weighs 20 lbs. more than me) on the Raptor & I beat him by about 8 bikes. I have also tested the speed/weight thing on a flat straightaway. With me on my 400 & my light friend on his Raptor, we ran almost identical (this wasn't really a race, but a 3 mile straight-line run). We switched quads, and on the 3 mile strip, he probably beat me by 1/4 to 1/3 of a mile. So I am happy because I know that when all things are equal (including rider weight), my 400 hauls the mail. And yes, I am on a pretty hardcore diet now. :)

[kabd69667]

Ok, well i really dont' think a $300 drop in cam (hrc) is the answer. I say if your going to spend that much money, you shoudl just go all out and get the most aggressive cam you can buy with new springs and rockers. That will cost you about $500 give or take. I'd say you would get a lot more results than the hrc. Try the lrd cam for top end if you go this route.

[JhallettEX]

How good is the Web full race cam? Thanks

[ChadEXer]

I agree with kabd69667 about the cam. you definately dont want to spend that much on a HRC cam. Get a more aggressive one. i also agree with Vegas,,,for drag racing the 14t up front is the best unless you have a damned good motor then a 15t up front is good. DO NOT run a 16t front drag racing,,,,unless your drag racing a mile or something!!!
As most of you know drag racing is my thing. I was beating stock Banshees when mine was just piped and jetted. When i went with the 416 i was spanking stock Banshees and Raptors and even hanging damned good with the midly modded ones. I dont know what is wrong here Josh but it seems like something is to me because i had much better results. try the 14t up front next time you drag and you will like it better. I tried the 16t one time drag racing after I did the 416 and i would have to give it he!! to beat just a piped 400. I put the 15t back on and it was easy sailing!!
I had my port work done the same time as everything else so i dont really know how much of a difference it made but maybe thats where you are holding back! If you cant find anybody to port it for you then send it to me. Ill have it done for $120 however you want it done(mild, full race)
Chad

who said anthing about 300 bucks for a cam? the HRC copy is about the same price as everyone elses cams and its a drop in. as far as getting one more aggressive Chad aren't you the guy who ran the same setup 416 with XRcam and was smokin all the full blown race 440s?

[JhallettEX]

OK, I found this guy that will sell me his old cam and other items I will need what do you think, let me know. Here is his email about the cam.....

Hi Josh,
The cam is a webb grind 463/9i, 385/370 lift, 272/270
duration. It is the biggest cam webb has offered for
the 400ex. I used it with a 440 kit, 39 fcr carb,
porting and lrd exhaust. You need shortened guides
because of the lift and stronger springs. I used the
cam in my ice racer for two seasons, about 10 races.
It was the fastest 400 around my area. The cam is in
excellent condition. You do not need to pay for a
core. I also have the set of springs/ titanium
retainers which I would throw in for $40. (120 new)
If youre interested, let me know.
Thanks, Jim

[shook]

What will he sell the carb for I need a FCR looking for a good used one though.

[JhallettEX]

Does anyone have any info on this cam that I can buy, I need to know if it is a good cam. Let me know ASAP....Thanks guys

[RAPTORAZ]

Originally posted by JhallettEX
Well I just got back from Little Sahara and I am not to happy with my 416, xr400 cam, and 39mm FCR carb. I thaught you guys were all sayin that a 416 w/ xr400 cam would beat Raptors, DS650's, and piped Banshess..! Well the only thing I could beat there were stock shees with no mods what so ever. I even have the new carb so I was thinkin she was going to kill alot more than just that. Do I have something wrong here or what? I guess she is just going to need a little more money put into her before the season starts. Let me know waht you think. Thanks

Don't feel bad. I raced my buddies 440 at Glamis this weekend. And beat him pretty good. About 3 bike lengths up OLDS hill. He has an I.M.S. 440 kit with a ported and polished head, GT Thunder cam, 39mm FCR carb, and a Curtis Sparks X-6 pipe. All I have is my Pro Circuit slip-on equipped Raptor. Other than jetting, the pipe, and airbox mods, it is stock. Needless to say he was a little dissapointed. Of course so was my buddy with a FMF SST piped Banshee after I took him out as well. I however, had a great day!:D

[400exRacerX]

That looks like a nice Mach 1 in the backround if I am correct?

[MIKE400EX]

JHALLETT, with that cam in a 10.8:1 416 you'll need a down hill to start off and mid range will feel like soggy corn flakes. Great cam for all and only top end. Look at the cams for your EX like you would a small block chevy/ford(whatever). Check the duration numbers - they dictate (for the most part) what RPM range the motor will run best in. 220*-230* (stock) = good low rpm torque/power w/decent mid and not much top. Around 240* (XR territory) = a little less bottom end (not much less) but much better mid and will hang on w/o dropping off too much on top. 250*-260* (GTT/HRC/WEB 450/451/WB Track...) = more noticeable loss in bottom, big hit in midrange and strong top pull. >265* (WEB 463/9i) no bottom, soggy mid but big top. To all of these, add more cubes and the useable RPM starts lower, with more in all areas. Add more compression and you get more power all over. Porting can be focused to improve any area. "Play porting" usually adds some mid and a little top. "Full race"porting usually takes away some bottom, adds some mid but mostly all top benefit. The biggest cam I would suggest for a 416 would be in the GTT/HRC range. It's all a balancing act, and of course assuming you have a good pipe, jet correctly etc... There's many more influences such as ignition and cam timing, gas quality... I'll quit before I bore you too much but maybe you'll have a better grasp on your needs. Probably the best suggestion is for anyone to be completely honest with their regular use instead of just wanting to brag about numbers.

[RAPTORAZ]

Yeah, my bad. I accidentally put in a picture of my Cobra first. I didn't think anyone had seen it yet. And yes, that was my Mach in the background. Oops.

[MIKE400EX]

Damn, I missed the Mach I while typing!

[optikid123]

i was just wondering cause nobody said this but dosent tire size matte in this situation how big are your tires?? and if the people you race have bigger ones that could be part of your problem

[XxXx~FLY~xXxX]

on a 440 kit do u just order the 440 kit from a mag, get some one to throw it in and then BAM instant power increse? or do u have to use a certain piston and all that stuff. i want to put a 440 kit in! do i just order it, and put it in?? i'm thinking of trinity or duncan racing 440 kit? which one is better?? thanx ahed of time.

chris

on a 440 kit do u just order the 440 kit from a mag, get some one to throw it in and then BAM instant power increse?

Well no.

Just look at this post and you can see it takes a good combination of the right mods to work right.

I have been trying to get the 440 to work harder or better since I got it.

There is some great info avail here and thru other sources but expect some trial and error.

And with the 440 kit I would suggest checking out another thread - have you decked the cylinder as there is some great info there.

Hope that helps

[XxXx~FLY~xXxX]

so what do i need to do?? i'm gonna race mx and what combination do i need(piston, carb,etc.) what will i get from just putting in the trinity or duncan 440 kit? anything?? please help i just got into the performance quad industry late last year, so i'm really lost about most of these things.thanx.



chris

JhallettEX, I don't know how long you spent dialing in your bike after these mods, but perhaps you should consider putting in some more trial and error time. Change/adjust things (jets, air screw, carb needle/clip, sprockets, tire sizes, etc.) ONE AT A TIME. It takes forever, and it feels like you are making little to no progress, but once it's all said and done compare times on your first run and the end result and you'll be surprised how much you can gain just from spending the time to dial it all in. It's cheaper too!

Small example; I let my friend jump on my bike last weekend and he raced some he!!-bent souped up warrior (yes, they exist). Well, he got his ***** kicked (really torqued my pride to be honest). I'm a BIG guy and I got new suspension dialed in just for me. I told my friend to hang his nuts off the back fender and get as much weight on the back tires as possible. Next run and every one after that he SMOKED that guy like a rastafarian after a 1-week ganja vacation. Turns out he was just spinnin the tires most of the time and getting no bite. A simple change of rider position made a world of difference.

Take your time, make your adjustments one at a time until each is most efficient, then go through them again, you will continue to see little benefits until about the third time through everything. Then you'll know yer getting all she's got. It takes time, but thats most of the fun!

Enjoy!

[ChadEXer]

Fatboy Racing is right. Drag racing takes a lot more skill and know how than most people think!
About the 440 kit. I would say Duncan has proved themselves more than Trinity but both are good. For a "good" setup,, expect to spend about $1500-$2000. Thats with "everything" done right and letting an engine builder build it.
Yes I was the one with the 416 with an XR cam beating everybody but I still though I should have went with a more aggressive cam. Like I had said earlier, I was beating my friend with a 440 kit, 11:1 piston, porting, Big Gun, HRC cam,,,,Pretty closr to the same thing as me but he had the 440 piston and the HRC cam,,,His bike wasnt any faster than mine!!! Whoever got the jump won the race,,,,we raced over and over!

[RED121572]

Get rid of that XR 400 cam. It doesnt breath well at high rpms.

[breaks-alot]

I can't believe it! How can u guys mention all these cams w/out talking about the TC? I have rode-watched many 440's and by far the TC cam is the best. 4 Stroke Pro-am and A rider (Jason March who works at Baldwin Motorsports) Has a TC cam in his 440 and he can over shoot 67ft jumps in seconded gear (watched it happened he broke his collar bone) Now that is probably the fastest MX440 at a ATV National. And if it’s good enough for Mark Baldwin then its good enough for me! If you want to compete then you should have a motor builder do there work, they do so many tricky little things that give bike little more power to whoop *** on the people who buy a 440 kit outa a box and does a few other simple mods. I think that should definitely be your next mod!

[RED121572]

TC cam? Ive seen that one mentioned quite a few times on here. Other than that, I have not a clue what that cam is for. (low, mid or top??)

I mostly give suggestions based on my own experiences, not based what Ive read on here. There are too many opinions on here. lol

:)

[flying400ex]

To the guy who started this tread.....JhallettEX


Hey you guys have it a bit wrong. Although you all are right to an extent. what you did was give your engine a boost in power but what you proabaly failed to do was add 1 or maybe 2 teeth on the countershaft sproket. With the stuff you did to your engine, it should be able to pull a taller gearing which equals more speed, Although your bottom end will be about the same the top end should be a little faster.

:)

[RED121572]

Thats a pretty good point there bud. Can you go to a larger c/s sprocket without an aftermarket case saver?

[JhallettEX]

So then what size are you saying a should go with 16/?. Thanks

[flying400ex]

YES! That would be worth a try, I am sure it will staisfy you. You will need to get an aftermarket case saver though. They arn't to much money and the look lots better then stock and are stronger to. Save up a few bucks and give it a try I promise it will work.

[250rmike]

I thought the 416 was more of a mx kit not speed?

[flying400ex]

Well you could make a 416 kit do anything you wnated, you could race MX or GNCC or anything you want.

[ChadEXer]

You DO NOT want to go to a 16t front! Too high even for a good 416, You can try it if you want but you will be wastin time(and a couple of $$) this is for drag racing anyway like you said you were doing. Take it from me man. I am a drag racer to tha bone! most of these guys have never even drag raced except for a freind out in the yard. i race competition drag races. you should keep the 15t on or even try a 14t for drag racing. on a 300 or even 500ft drag strip you dont need top speed,,,its whoever gets there first!!!!!

the 15/36 gearing Is what I went to,,and has worked great,,for mx racing and trail riding,,I think it was the perfect mod with the 416 kit..