Atva Rule Changes Youth & Other

[exman]

Okay now is the time to submitt any potential rule class changes to the atva, the congree I beleive meets here like real soon, I hear tomorrow, but not totally sure. But any way, type em, write em, whatever, but get them there. It may seam trival, but at least make your voice heard.

this is especially for 13-15 year old youth production, you need to get one in about the de stroking and de-boring of larger machines to meet the 200cc 2 strk 300cc 4strk. if you don't, next year your going to see destrkoed 400ex, z400's 250R's, and gas gas's when you roll up with that highly modded 300ex or blaster. So your going to be behind the power curve from the get go. it happened at lorrettas this weekend.

gas gas 2 stk 300 destroked to to meet the 200cc requirement, and it won, with no problem at all. Now of course Ricky stair who has been riding his blaster all year and had the title in the class clinched really but the machine to the front. but the difference for other youth entry riders, is the machine is 13,000 dollars race ready. So unless you plan to mod one of the bigger machines and start all over on a machine this winter, $$$$$$$$

write the ATVA Doug Morris, address it to ATVA CONGRESS, AND STATE
NO DEBORING, NO DESTROKING TO MEET YOUTH PRODUCTION CC REQUIREMENT, ATV HAS TO COME FROM MANUFACTURER SHOWROOM FLOOR TO MEET THE CLASS CC REQUIREMENT.

EMAIL ME FOR ANY MORE DETAILS ON THIS

[tprender]

If you read the rulebook, destrocking has been legal and done on the M/C side for many years. It was done with a 250r many years ago so that it could ride in the Blaster class then, but noone followed the ball. There are 2 classes for the 200/300" production and mod. This will be something to think about when we meet in Oct, but any changes had to be sent in by the 1st of Aug. Something can be brought up at the meeting but it is not easy. It takes a 2/3 vote just to bring it up to be talked about at the table.
If you look at the history of that class there has always been some fancy work done to make the quads legal for the class.

[exman]

they announced at Lorreta Lynns that if there are any rule change suggestions that they needed to be submitted asap.

the class we are talking about is a new class

2003 was the first year 14-15 year old 200cc 300cc
then 2004 is the second year.

I believe they had to beg borrow and steal to let 13-15 year olds race bigger quads than 90cc.....so now here we go

[Bill Fuller]

I personally checked out the Gas Gas this weekend and it was badarse.We camped right beside them.I see know reason why this isn't good for the sport.You can race a 200 class this year and next year or the year after bump it back up to 250 or 300cc.How can that not be good?Why would mom or dad want to spend $15,000 every other year,when you can buy an awsome ride right from the factory(more or less).

[exman]

hey B i was right next to the big black trailer of the kid who was racing it for the maker (ricky stair)

the machine not from gas gass but from the guy who built it is 13,000 bucks great machine no doubt, but its worthelss for any other class than the a youth 200 300 class or the air cooled 200 / 300 class.

the parents who have riders in the youth production class are trying to keep the cost down and safety of it up. since it is a transition class from 90cc or entry level class.

the machine (gas gas was not even at its full potential, because it wasn't set up at all by the rider, he did alittle tweeking but that was it.

so if the rules don't get changed then next year the line will be full of destroked quads 250r's, 400ex's 450r's z400's all with 13-14 year old riders on them

[gibson400ex]

so how about if i went out and bought a crf250f motor.


I could de-stroke it to a 200?


If i could i think i might do it?

[gibson400ex]

Originally posted by exman


so if the rules don't get changed then next year the line will be full of destroked quads 250r's, 400ex's 450r's z400's all with 13-14 year old riders on them


I get what your saying.


If so there will be a big disadvantage(sp?)

[exman]

you could drop that ole 250f motor in a frame and run it in the 200/300 aircooled class, i am not familiar with it, but its air cooled it can be done. But you can't in the youth production, becuase frame has to match engine. plus if we start building the mid size quads, the manufactures will not get off there butts and develop anything new for the mid size atv.....oh I am mistaken they did suzuki came out out with that z 250, yep...they did great for developing a pit bike (ozark in disguise) hahahaha,

youth production class is a super class for the gnc, i just wish some how that they couls also incorporate it into the GNCC, but I just don't see at what time they would run, since youths are not suppose to be on the track at the same time as adults..least thats what i was told for GNCC...stinks

[Pappy]

$13,000 is nothing. Hell i have over $5000 in a damn honda 90

Money will always be the issue when it comes to motorsports. I would agree with Bill F. Id rather de stroke a quad and then switch it back the following year for either re sale or to run another class.

[sharkinthepool]

After reading each statement I can see where this is going and the different directions it is taking!

ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS GOOD LUCK!!! It is a battle that can be won if done correctly.


I personally have a destroked 400ex, that except for the power, is exactly like my other 400ex. My girlfriend and I both run motorcross. Where we are at there is a smallbore (250 to 390)and a bigbore (391 to whatever) class for men and women, and we both compete in each of our races.

(On this matter I would like to see another class open up for the larger quads, not that it makes a difference to me but I really get tired of hearing the whinning and complaining that a 450r/450z has such an advantage over the 400's. Which I do not think would be a bad thing to open another class??? They have a class for every size of dirt bike)!

It is just so much easier, :huh from my point of view to run the same set up in each race. That way you are not getting used to a larger or smaller bike and then turning around and running the opposite (truthfully that scenario is a quick way to send someone to the hospital).

She has another 88' 250r that has a 250x (265 legal) engine in it, that has set for a while just for that reason.

I have been around for a while and have not seen to many rule changes that really change anything. I have seen some but not many.
ANYWAY, GOOD LUCK!!!

[daddio]

the best "rule" in the youth production class is that the kids have to fit the bikes. if they do anything, it should be to have a "stock" and "mod" youth production. no "destroking" allowed in stock.
there will always be dad's that will pour buckets of money into their kids quads to make them faster, no matter what the rules say. then there will always be people that complain about other quads being "illegal" because their kid was beat.
My kid has to race his blaster against 250r's, 450's, 400's all the time because there aren't enough blasters to make a class. but he usually wins or finishes in the top 5, because he is a good rider.
unfortunately, the kid that can't ride well, but has a super fast quad, will usually crash or go off course, so the better rider wins anyway.
kids classes should be more on rider skill and fitting the bike, than on what the bike is.
afterall winning is nice, but it isn't everything. for the kids it should be more on developing riding skills, being safe and having fun. this is starting to sound too much like little league baseball, and bragging rights for dads.

[exman]

daddio i agree, maybe a stock and mod class is the way to go, my son will still race the stock class as it is. yes lots of dads have poured bunches of money into the quads. i have watched my son, pour lots of his money and time into the quad, and mine of course. i just want the youth production class to stay easily competitive where a kid from the local area can come off the track with a smile. there is plenty of time for a 13-15 year old to get the big bikes and mod mod mod...but entry level skills and learning are so much more important.

[tprender]

If you read the rule for the mod class, I think that it says that it has to be an ATV engines only. I had this put in the rule /class so that no CRF250f motors could be used in this class.
What is the difference between a person taking and destroking an engine and someone taking a 200/300 engine an putting it into a high dollar frame with all of the goddies?
The only change that I would like to se is that the 13-15 production class be changed to 13 and up production class.

[roostin_dale]

Hey John, any news on this yet? I really dont have enough money to destroke something for next season...

[exman]

no news it will be awhile before we know, i just want the class like the rest of the top 14 in it, to stay the same, with out all the deboring or destroking and all that, one simple addition to the rule crunchs it all and leaves no question.

we are not starting on rebuild until we know, if it doesn't get changed we will probably lay out a year and spend the money on bigger quad for other classes. haten that, becuase it was a blast this year

[daddio]

I just re-read the atva youth production rules. somewhere in the last 2 years the dropped the "air cooled" part of the rules. why? that part is what kept the blaster and 300ex competitive. it seems like someone was forseeing the "destroking" of bigger quads. in a way it does make sense. start with a destroked quad, and when you want to move up, change cyl. then you wont be buying shocks, a-arms, axle, etc, twice. but on the other hand, it is supposed to be "entry level" so why not keep it so the entry level quads can be competitive? It really doesn't matter around here anyway, because nobody follows any rules. but we would like to compete in a couple national events next year and be competitive and legal.

[exman]

i think the air cooled was dropped to allow the mojave to run. I had heard last year that they were thinking about proposing a rule that said no destroking etc.

going out and buying a big quad and destroking is a great idea...and then using it again, BUT i would think that the majority of racers 13-15 can't dropp the 7000 grnad for the bike, shocks, nerfs, etc etc etc then destroki it and all that goes with it.

money teams families no problem. but the majority does not have it, its agradual process.

[daddio]

so true....... the other thing I just thought about is........ even if you did buy a current "fast" bike and destroke it, chances are with the way quads are advancing these days, when you were ready to move up, you would be getting the current fast quad anyway. I agree with keeping the youth class an entry level class and make them learn riding skills before they move up.

[exman]

exactly you don't save money

13 years old destroke a 450, then the money to put it back, by then there will be new quads out .


it just needs to stay entry youth, so youth x slaps some nerfs and kill switch, gets shocks for xmas, pipe on his own, arms for b day and he is ready to go

[Brian Kelsey]

It's a shame that people want so desperately to hold to ancient technology. The blaster is 1970's technology. The Gas Gas is $7995.00 and they have a support program that at level one provides $800.00 and $400.00 in parts credits. To make the 200cc machine, it takes just under $2000 in Gas Gas parts .
I have just been informed that their contingency program has been expanded to cover their Quad's in the GNC MX and GNC TT as well as all AMA dist. MX tracks for 05. Thats 125 for 1st 75 for second and 50 for 3rd. Gas Gas has great interest in the Wild HP 200 and is collecting all the tech. info for me and has plans to manufacture this machine in the future if the customers base is there.
So I highly recommend you contact Doug @ ATVA ( 866-288-2564 ) and support the Gas Gas. We all want to see the sport grow and once the Gas Gas 200 is secured in the youth production class you know we can expect to see 250 water cooled machines from the big 4. Don't kill a great thing just as it gets started.

[exman]

so 7995 plus 2000 9995 for machine, what about all the extras, there are not to many 13-15 year olds that have that money for that, most just pray for some nerfs, and pipe for xmas.

it is a great machine, there is no doubt about, but lets make honda suzuki, yamaha, and gas gas make the bike to cc limit off the showroom floor.

remeber this is an entry level youth class

sit back and imagine your self as 13-14 wanting to race in the GNC MX and what you have is a slightly modded 98 300ex or 98 blaster....then take the view from that perspective

[Pappy]

please dont take this the wrong way and its not directed at anyone at all.

i kinda view this issue as alot of other money vs. no money things in racing....

if you cant compete on a lightly modded quad you probably arent going to compete on a fully modded quad. this crap starts out when the first quad shows up with a bore kit or better suspension and escalates from there. if you cant afford to run in a certain class chose another one. if there isnt a class in the nationals race locals. the crying over the money will not change a thing, like it or not it IS about the money at the national level.

i am all for having an affordable race/classes but truthfully if i pay out the cash to watch an event at a national i dont really feel like watching some 14 year old kid that wont jump 2 feet off the ground or ride a machine that the day before was covered in cow ***** on the back 20. i expect to see a certain level of ride and rider in the nationals.

if you cant make it happen then your local bound like the rest of us.

Opinion off

[Brian Kelsey]

Before becomming a dealer my son competed in the 70 mod class nationaly. The machines that we competed with were $16,000.00 machines. We raced with a $3000.00 machine and placed 6th in 99 and we ranning 4 in 01 and had 3 motor falures then fell to 5 by I beleve 1 point.
No one is twisting any ones arm to put out more than they are willing to spend. There are plenty of options. Your fooling your self if you don't think the top compeditors don't have 8-9000 + in their machines.

[exman]

i do agree they do have the money in the machines, but thats everyting to include the machine...but i believe the topic as gotten way off whack with the money issue..and as we know money is always an issue.

but the botttom line was the class was introduced as an entry level youth class, de stroking 450 400's 250'rs is not an entry level bike. were lucky to even have this class and not have to stuff are 160 lbs sons on a 90 cc production or mod.

it will happen, the destroking and deboring will happen for next year. i don't like it, but will deal with it. i think it could or could have been changed regardless if the factory sponsors or money is involved...they have a stock class in gncc...and its not cheap i bet either, but the stock class is there for a reason.

now if there were a mod class and production class, then there is a choice for youth riders...but there is not

but really the gas gas at lorrettas piloted to the front by the rider not the bike...but in the hands of a fool,,,it can be dangerous

[gibson400ex]

so it means i could or couldnt destroke a crf250f motor?

[roostin_dale]

I'm going to agree with John (exman) with eveyrthing he said. Not all youth riders have the money to build a bike, not to mention spend $10,000 + on going to all the national events.

Something else thats been on my mind. A stock 300ex puts out like 10-15 horse? Probably the same for the blaster? But the gasgas puts out 40+ horse....thats not fair at all. So unless you get extremely good riders on modded 300ex's blaster's, this national class is going to turn into a game of who's daddy has more money....

anyways...when are we gunna find out the rules? I have no idea what im going to do for next season. If they allow destroking, and everyone in the class does it, then like Pappy said im gunna be local bound. I have a hard enough time keeping up on my 250x...:rolleyes: :macho

[roostin_dale]

Originally posted by gibson400ex
so it means i could or couldnt destroke a crf250f motor?

No you cant its "youth 'production'" that means production engines in their production frames....

[jonny70]

The Gas Gas was not de-stroked or sleaved. It is a production Gas Gas cylinder with the necessary Gas Gas production crank. The 300 cylinder was not altered, and the 300 crank was not altered. They were replaced with Production parts!

[exman]

its manufacutured version is 300cc, then you buy parts to reduce it to 200cc, what ever it is its DE - something

[gimp419]

I'm with you exman when I look at the Youth Production class I expect to see tricked out 300ex's and Blasters. I don't think it's right that you can get a destroked quad in that class. This is a transition class.
But don't feel singled out because of everyone else in your class having the money to spend. The new production bikes have made everyones life hell! We felt like we had to sell our old bikes to buy the new ones, and here is the kicker, the old aftermarket bikes were faster!
I'm selling my production bike and riding my R next year, the four stroke is just a money pit. I'd rather have a $12,000 after market bike that I can pound the crap out of then a $12,000 production bike that you have to baby.
So the money is an issue for all of us.

[tprender]

Let me talk about a few things that some of you are getting mixed up. The is a 13-15 youth production class. there is also a 16+ mod class. Each class has different rules. Some of you are getting the rules for each mixed with the other class. The crf250 mototr cannot be used in either class.
If you look at the 70 mod class, where do most of the engines for the mod class come from? There are taking the cr80 and kx80 engines and destroking them. How much money are these kid's/parents putting out to build these quads?
I see this as the same as when a rider who had a Warrier who complained that he had to ride with the 4-strokes. He then wanted the limit for this class raised to 350 so that he could ride in the 200/300 class.

[Rebelrider4OOex]

if ur 16 can u race youth production on a 250x?

[exman]

not if you turn 16 before the season starts

[roostin_dale]

Originally posted by Rebelrider4OOex
if ur 16 can u race youth production on a 250x?

if your 15 when the season starts and turn 16 in the middle then yes you can...

[Rebelrider4OOex]

whens the seson start november rite?

how much does it cost ot get a motor destroked?
do u loose power? acceleration or top speed?

[tprender]

The date that is used is Jan 1st for youth classes. Adult class is the day of the event for your age.

[roostin_dale]

Originally posted by Rebelrider4OOex
whens the seson start november rite?

how much does it cost ot get a motor destroked?
do u loose power? acceleration or top speed?

It cost a good chunk of money! And obviously you will lose some acceleration and power...Best bet is to buy a blaster/300ex/250x/mojave

[rollie]

i hope this destroking rule doesnt happen because i pay for all my parts and i only work during the summer,i dont even have an axle/a-arms yet so my quad wont be competeitive at all with these de-stroked quads:(

[roostin_dale]

the rule went through, they do allow it. Me and a couple people i have talked to all think that not many kids will do it. Maybe one or 2. Shouldn't be a big deal this year.

[exman]

are you positive they didn't change anything for next year

[roostin_dale]

Originally posted by exman
are you positive they didn't change anything for next year

No im not 100% sure, but somebody did tell me that....could have been wrong, we'll wait and see I guess....

[exman]

i don;t think they will change it, i got a lame excuse that gas gas told the atva, that they could easily make a 200 cc for the class off the showroom floor....well i say lets make em step up to the plate and make the dang thing...becuase the machine is overpriced and worthless in any other class. becuase if they step up and put one on the showroom floor (200cc) then just maybe the other manufactures may get the hint and update there intermediate quads...just maybe....

[roostin_dale]

Originally posted by exman
i don;t think they will change it, i got a lame excuse that gas gas told the atva, that they could easily make a 200 cc for the class off the showroom floor....well i say lets make em step up to the plate and make the dang thing...becuase the machine is overpriced and worthless in any other class. becuase if they step up and put one on the showroom floor (200cc) then just maybe the other manufactures may get the hint and update there intermediate quads...just maybe....

yea, but right now I dont really care what gas gas does...Im about 16 and out of the youth class so new quads wont help me much:(

I will rough out next season on the lil ol' 250x :)