gusseting 101

[REDARMYRACER]

has anyone gusseted a 450r frame???

lets see pics if you got'm

i may gusset mine & have pappy powdercoat it yellow

[kyex40047]

poeple are not guessting the 450r frame because it is already very stong from the factory.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by kyex40047
poeple are not guessting the 450r frame because it is already very stong from the factory.

incorrect

its a new quad and not many have been torn down. they are no stronger IMO then the 400ex and may prove to be weaker in an area or two

[kazpr]

Walsh has a gusset kit. I may send them my frame this winter and have them gusset and powder coat it.

[86atc250r]

they are no stronger IMO then the 400ex and may prove to be weaker in an area or two

That's quite a claim Pappy.

The 450R uses better construction and materials than a 400EX - in fact, if you compare the two, the 400EX frame looks cheezy in comparison with it's butt welding and small diameter tubing.

One thing that must be considered is that there will be FAR more racers trusting completely stock 450R frames than would ever trust un-worked over 400EX frames - so by default you will see some failures - and maybe even some problem areas develop.

The 450R is also capable of far greater performance than a 400EX as well, which will allow more riders to push them harder and stress the chassis's more.

As a general rule - if someone were keeping track, I'm quite certain you'd see fewer stock 450R failures than YFZ, 400EX, or especially LTZs.

Even Walsh has said that the 450R is the least likely of the new quads to require gusset work.

[Pappy]

all i base my opinion on is what ive seen so far. i have seen cracks in areas i havent seen in 400ex frames. ive seen frames bend that in all honestly shouldnt have. ive seen subframes snapped. etc. i have my own issues with my frame and i damn well know i dont ride hard.

[REDARMYRACER]

wow much heated debate......

the frames will be gusseted on many machines in the near future, if you jump alot and ride hard, people will gusset for extra insurance.

why waste money on repairs when it can be better spent on go fast goodies!!!!!!!!!!

hahahahhahhahhaaa:devil:

[Admin]

I must say that I have heard and seen more 450R frames breaking and bending than I saw 400EX frames bend or crack this early since their release.

I will be tearing mine down to gusset it in the near future once I found out what other spots are showing to be weak.

[chad502ex]

Fortunately, I haven't seen any issues on my frame- as of yet, checked today! I'll keep my fingers crossed. My concern is what will happen when I put some serious HP/Torque (80-90) under the tank and under load the frame starts twisting. Hmm, thats whats scary, HEH!

Chad502ex.com

[86atc250r]

Where are these that you're seeing bending?

Breaking?

I just find it very, very odd that you guys are saying that you're seeing more problems with the 450R frame than the 400EX when the 450R frame is obviously superior in design and materials - even to the layperson. Especially considering they're so close in construction that it's easy to see where they fixed problems the 400EX had.

Lets establish some patterns & analyze what's going on.

Who's bending/breaking them. Slow guys, fast guys - guys that typically are very hard on equip, etc? In the 400EX world, I often noticed it was the slower guys that broke the most stuff - I have my own thoughts on that - but that's out of the scope of this posting.

Are the breaks due to impact, vibration, fatigue?

Bends - this one really intrigues me - unless you're just talking about the aluminum subframes/grab bars/bumpers and/or tie rods, wheels, etc.

Aluminum goodies are nice, but many times to make a chassis piece from aluminum as strong or stronger than it's steel counterpart, the end result ends up negating any weight savings from the material - see Cannondale frame.

No problems here - not seen any problems.

I've thrashed about every ATV and bike I've ever owned - broken numerous frames, swingarms, control arms - you name it. I've also done a lot of repair work and gussetting - I feel I have a pretty good working knowledge behind me when I look at a chassis's construction...

So far, my 450 is holding up very well & it was one of the very first ones out. I must have gotten lucky or something.

In all honesty, after a detailed inspection, measuring, comparison, etc - I determined it wouldn't be worth my time gusseting this quad at this point - if I had to buy another 400EX, gussetting it would be one of the first priorities...

I'm not being combative here - I'd just like to hear more detail and everyone seems less than willing to share anything other than "Yup, I've seen a bunch of them bending/breaking".

[Admin]

The frames that I have seen cracked have been by A Class and Pro Class riders, but only after about 10 races. I don't have photographs and I am not going to list names because that isn't apporiate for me to share. They are cracking on the top engine tube near the engine mount,so whether you want to believe this superior frame is breaking or not is up to you.

I assure you 100% that I will be gusseting my frame before it certainly cracks.

I don't care about tubing strength, material, or analyze. I have seen enough to know mine will be gusseted. The bad thing is that they aren't breaking at a weld, but instead along the tubing, which makes it more difficult to gusset than a normal weld cracking issue. Also, I believe that their is already a post about this in the 450R forum, and I am not including that one in my count.

I guess you have just been lucky, but give it time, and I am sure you will find out for yourself. No frame is crack/break proof, and I am an expert at breaking them in half.

Maybe you need to start riding harder, so you can find out first hand.

[cinigen9]

Originally posted by EXriders Admin
The bad thing is that they aren't breaking at a weld, but instead along the tubing, which makes it more difficult to gusset than a normal weld cracking issue.

Admin - How are you going to gusset to prevent the tubes from cracking? On the frames you have seen - are there multiple places that are weak? Can you share some of the areas to keep an eye on?

Good or bad, I have one of these quads, so I am here to share info with other owners so we all have a better experience with our quads.

Carson

[86atc250r]

Easy there Harlen -

The sarcastic tone & attacking my riding skills for asking a simple question is a tad inappropriate for someone that's supposed to be setting an example to others.

I'd certainly expect more from someone like yourself. You're not dealing with a mouthy pre-teen making statements from a position of pure ignorance.

Stock frames are surviving 10 races at the National Pro level before developing any kind of problem? Not too bad - I've seen LTZs have serious failures at the "local boy A class" level in as little as one race.

You're right though - given time and abuse anything can/will fail --- that doesn't mean though that all things are equal as far as chassis's go.

Anyhow, that's an easy enough problem to work with. From the way you and Kenny were talking it sounded like there was a much more broad range of problems - this one is easily solved by using a technique Honda used in several other places on this frame --- simply overlaying the area with additional material. Maybe also by placing an additional tube spanning the top tube to the rear down tube, depending on what's causing the stress & the actual location of the break.

For someone that races an LTZ - I wouldn't think this would be any big deal to correct nor an issue to be to terribly concerned over considering the failures it's been subject to & the blatant disregard to integrity it was built with.

Now the greater question --- what's causing it? Engine vibration causing fatigue? Twisting fatigue? That's an odd area to crack spontaneously without reason.

[Pappy]

well that is the problem, noone has been able to define what the cause is. the yfz has broken in the same area so ill leave it up to the experts as to why...i just hate broken stuff:p

the new subframes are being proven to be weak which sucks.


i dont work for honda. suki, yamaha etc, and im really not all that brand loyal. and i dont make money from gusset work so its of no concern to me if you gusset or not.

i remeber being bashed when i posted that the Z400 frame was junk 2 weeks after its release...same with the YFZ when i made the mistake of posting proof that they can break. (yes yes, everything can break thats not the point)

so be happy, gusset or not, just figure out WHY and be sure to inform me:D

[Admin]

Originally posted by 86atc250r
Easy there Harlen -

The sarcastic tone & attacking my riding skills for asking a simple question is a tad inappropriate for someone that's supposed to be setting an example to others.

I'd certainly expect more from someone like yourself. You're not dealing with a mouthy pre-teen making statements from a position of pure ignorance.


Gabe, I am sorry you see my post as sarcastic and attacking because it was neither. I think you are looking too deep into, and I doubt others will see it the way you perceive. The statement “Maybe you need to start riding harder, so you can find out first hand.” was only to clarify my point that several A & Pro Riders have already cracked their frames, which you seemed to disbelieve was factual information.

I completely understand that you have a wealth of ATV knowledge and are also a good rider from your past excellent performances at the 12 hours of America:macho, but sometimes you get caught up in your own ideas and thoughts and don't won't to hear another view point that disproves your own scientific or logical findings :(. I am sorry that my response offended you, but I was only stating my opinion on the situation:D

You gusseting ideas are exactly the way that I intend to go about having the frame gusseted, but I am still concerned that it may just break further down the tubing, which wouldn’t have solved anything.

Also, XC racers are the only people that I have heard of cracking their frames, so it may be a result of the vibration from the rocky and rough terrain that is causing the problem? The frame seems to be able to hold up to the stress of MX riding, which I think the Honda engineers focused on when designing the frame. Again, the 450R has only been available just about 6 months, so I think we will start to see more of a trend once a year has passed.

BSTURDIVANT already started a post about the breakage on his frame which was the same place that I have seen them cracked on other 450R frames. Most of the guys are welding half cut tubing onto the existing frame tube to reinforce the area after the breakage.

Check out his post for more information:
Frame Breaking Post (http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=116023)

An example of where they are breaking.

[Shawn H]

i remeber being bashed when i posted that the Z400 frame was junk 2 weeks after its release...same with the YFZ when i made the mistake of posting proof that they can break.

Lmao I remember that :( I have no signs of cracks in my frame yet after 7 races But I can assure you I will be tearing it down and gusseted my frame in the winter. Possibly before the 12hrs of america for a piece of mind and one less thing to worry about!

[Matt102]

Yeah, I race MX in the local A class and beat my stuff pretty hard. I checked mine the other day and saw no problems. Also, were that arrow is pointed, there is a weld. Another thing, I gusseted my steering stem. You can see were the top part was pressed into the bottom. just cut a 1/4" tube thats about 4 inches long and weld it back over that area. I haven't bet my stem yet, and I've had some pretty hard crashes(with fatbars).

i would rather bend my steering stem then my frame

[PEPwalshZ440]

I've had my R for a few months and i race MX and have cased some pretty big jumps in my day and took a spill or two and nothing has happend to my frame at all...

[Admin]

As I mentioned before, it seems that only the XC and woods riders are breaking the frames??? I personally haven't heard of any MX racers having problems with the frame.

[450rRIPPER]

I am no metal fabamacator but how about welding one long plasma cut strip on its edge 1/8'' thick by 3/4 or so from behind the top motor mount down to say right above the swing arm bolt?

[norrisboat]

odd that only xc racers are seeing this problem. I checked mine, the paint is still intact, but my 450r hasnt had much ride time.

im going to print this thread out & bring it to my dealer to see if they will do something with my frame

[s2k1]

You guys need to realize that adding gussets to the chassis in any location will change the rigidity balance and change the overall handling. Some riders will and some won't be able to tell the difference and some machines are modified so much that the factory chassis tuning is wasted any ways. Many of you probably don't care about this issue but you should at least be aware of it, even if you haven't experienced it. Adding, removing, or modifying even a single gusset, bracket, or tube will change the suspension character, the ride comfort, the handling, etc.
Curious to see what kind of forum feedback this will cause...guess we'll see.

[CdaleXtreme]

Thats odd that XC Racers are cracking their frames more so than MX. Maybe like somone said about the frame being designed to hold up to MX more.

On MX tracks, usually all the wheels hit bumps evenly, like both front wheels will hit a bump at the same time. Like whoops or a landing off of a jump. Resulting in a much more predictable load on the chassis, and easier to reinforce the frame accordingly.

XC racers hit bumps coming from all angles all the time. things are hardly predictable. Maybe all of these different angled attacks on the frame are taking their toll? I would imagine the MX frames will evnetually show the same story. But possibly over a longer period of time. Heck if I go through one frame a season Id be happy with that, sure beats the old 250R frame cracking every single race !!! :eek2:

im just gonna drop $2g's or whatever on a lonestar frame & not have to worry about it anymore :blah:

[Shawn H]

I wonder how many are clipping trees/rocks etc.. and then realizing after the race that the frame is cracked or stressed.

I bet the PRO'S snag there fair share of tree's as well as us normal guys>