honda 450 vs yamaha 450? pro's and con's

[QCquad83]

ok lets hear it....i have a 250r...but i'm getting a 450 but i want to here everything about each other. now that i just broke my collar bone yesterday at a race i have time to sit down and way out the options....i am a die hard honda fan because any that knows anything about performance atv knows that the honda name has stood the test of time and that they are a living legend in the atv race world......but i also know that the yamaha 450 is a force to be dealt with....i want to know all of the things about each.........personaly i race a high level b class of motocross. i would like to know what are the good and bad things of each stock bike because i wont' have the money to fix everything right away......and also what aftermarket stuff is the best for each bike for my type of riding.......



i am also going to have my R for sale here shortly.........pm if interested.......

[Freestylemxr]

Well i'll start out with the yfz, obviously is has a very strong engine, fast bike, there's nothing you really need to do to the engine to have it be competitive, obviously you will probably want to put some a-arms on it, axle, bars, pipe, nerfs, wheels, tires etc. its a pretty stable bike stock, but if you are going to be racing agressive mx then the wider the beter. The suspension isn't too bad, but if you are going to be going big you may want to upgrade the suspension. People have been saying bad things about the batery but go to http://www.douggust.com/content/Ask...Z%20battery.htm and it will explain everything.

The 450r is less expensive to buy but will need a fiew more mods. To keep it competitive with the yfz's a fiew engine upgrades would greatly help, its a taller less stable bike so a-arms and axle are a must, they suspension on the r is very good, but you will will have to put all your normal racing products on it but you will need to do a little more to get it race ready then you need to with the yfz, all together I know its hard to let go of honda, but I think the yfz is just a beter quad.

You could always go with a crf quad if you want to stay with honda, that will stay up with the yfz and usually are sold mx ready

hope that helped ;)

[theyfctr]

yfz Pros-
faster than honda stock, electric, more for speed than anything else rough
cons-
Something about the a-arm cracking(I don't know how likely this is, I jump mine and have had no problems), hard seat, rough suspension, If your spark plug goes out in a race you are in trouble becouse of its location.

honda pros-more durable, upgrade kits are easy to find

cons-
not as fast as yfz, needs engine work to be truely fast(not bad if you like tearing your engine apart), kickstart, built equal preformance and durability.

I rode a honda and didn't like it much. If I get another bike it would be a yfz. Just test them both stock and buy what you feel more comfortable with. They are both fast but the yfz is my definate choice.

[Freestylemxr]

If you go to http://www.kandkatv.com/ and go to quads for sale they have some awsome yfz and 450r set ups if you want to get an idea of what to get for upgrades.

[YFZ4fiddy]

YFZ :D

[Sm0k3d]

450r!! Why?? I don't think you want MOTOR problems!

I found this on a yamaha forum (bluetraxx)..


Another update: It was $4200 worth of damage . The only part salvagable was the cams/head. The repairman said Yamaha had warranted 30 similar problems since January. They said the wristpin is short and shifts left or right in the piston causing the piston to cant slightly in the cylinder. When mine was torn down the piston was angled/canted in the cylinder and wristpin was shifted to 1 side. I know some "expert" will probably come on here and have something to say about this. I don't know anything about mechanical work. I am just passing along what I was told by the repairman and what he was told by Yamaha. They will cover full repair costs.

SORRY!! but this is TOO much.. i've also heard about THIS..


After splitting the cases, we found the gears broke and in the bottom of the cases. How Bryan got on the podium is beyond me. He had gotten the motor so hot that when he shut it off it split the cylinder, fried a clutch and there were gear box parts inside of the oil pump and all 3 shift forks showed signs of bending. There are several things we can do to the gear box to make it stronger. The first will be to do a cryogenic treatment which is freezing the gears below 300 degrees F. This will increase the longevity of the gears about 20% and strengthen them. As you can see in the gear box pictures, the gears are pitting or flaking apart. We saw the same thing with the 400ex's. The gears are made of some kind of powdered metal that is pressed together and after a while it fatigues. The biggest problem with this machine as was the Raptor is people missing shifts or not getting it all the way into gear. The shift forks are bending and they need extra pads welding onto the shift forks to shift it farther and straighter into gear. The shift forks are flexing and touching the sides in the groove on the gear. After welding pads onto the shift forks, polish them so they run smoothly in the groove in the gear. Polishing the shift fork shafts where they go into the cases will also aid in a smoother shift. Some people will never have any problems with this because they make positive shifts. These are just a few of the things we are finding out in the short time we have run this machine. Hopefully it will give you and idea of what to look

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid122/pff347d6054e963ca1b8296618e5cffa3/f834dc84.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid122/p7f98c19ddb51b61cd9c896f2bd98423d/f834d14d.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid122/p93edad73402d0b811d3ac0626d4f8113/f834b7d2.jpg

The quote on top was from a guy that had 3 weeks on his bike.. DIDNT mx it, it was brand new and not modded.. the bike below with the blown gears and crap was a mx racer. lots of people are having problems with rod bearings too.

[electricstart]

The yfz is very comparable to the 250R, thats why I like it. It feels alot like a 2 stroke when you ride it. It also handles and jumps like a modded R. I have had mine for over six months, ride it pretty hard and have had no problems at all. I do take good care of it though.
Goodluck

[theyfctr]

Originally posted by Sm0k3d
450r!! Why?? I don't think you want MOTOR problems!

I found this on a yamaha forum (bluetraxx)..



SORRY!! but this is TOO much.. i've also heard about THIS..



http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid122/pff347d6054e963ca1b8296618e5cffa3/f834dc84.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid122/p7f98c19ddb51b61cd9c896f2bd98423d/f834d14d.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid122/p93edad73402d0b811d3ac0626d4f8113/f834b7d2.jpg

The quote on top was from a guy that had 3 weeks on his bike.. DIDNT mx it, it was brand new and not modded.. the bike below with the blown gears and crap was a mx racer. lots of people are having problems with rod bearings too.



Did he use the clutch, i think i have heard of something like this happening becouse people don't use the clutch.

Any way, I haven't talked to anyone with problems with their yfz yet. The honda 450 was a big let down in power

[Splatter Matter]

those pic came from Mickey Dunlap his rider lost the water pump and when he tore it down he found the tranny problem.Bryan Cook GNCC pro class it his motor.here is the hole story.
http://www.bluetraxx.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=54145

[Sm0k3d]

Exactly.. I don't think the yfz450 is so special.. just a wr450 dirt bike motor stuck into a quad frame with electric start. Atleast honda upgraded the insides of their motor and modified it to handle the extra abuse of a quad, yamaha didn't.

[Dodge 1 Ton]

I would say that if you looked hard enough you can find stories about the Honda 450r similar to the one in this thread about the YFZ. I bought an YFZ because I rode a 450r and was not impressed. Mine has been great so far. I know several people who have them and also know the mechanic at the local dealer Yamaha dealer here and he has not told me of any real problems with them.

[Sm0k3d]

Of course you will find stories about the 450r also, i've heard of people breaking frames, bending axles, and thats all.. but each person said it was under high stress (such as MX racing) Or crashing in 4th gear. I have not ONCE heard of a problem with the 450r that is from Normal owner riding conditions (such as playing in the back yard or in the sand) Yet many every day owners with yfz's breaking things, Not bashing the bike because it is fast, and there are some people that have NO problems with them.. Guess they just got lucky! But I don't want the chance of trying to be one of them.

[CTmxyfz]

Originally posted by Sm0k3d
450r!! Why?? I don't think you want MOTOR problems!

I found this on a yamaha forum (bluetraxx)..



SORRY!! but this is TOO much.. i've also heard about THIS..



http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid122/pff347d6054e963ca1b8296618e5cffa3/f834dc84.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid122/p7f98c19ddb51b61cd9c896f2bd98423d/f834d14d.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid122/p93edad73402d0b811d3ac0626d4f8113/f834b7d2.jpg

The quote on top was from a guy that had 3 weeks on his bike.. DIDNT mx it, it was brand new and not modded.. the bike below with the blown gears and crap was a mx racer. lots of people are having problems with rod bearings too.


That was Bryan Cook's race motor built by Four Stroke Tech. There are no problems with my motor at all and i have had it for a year and a month so far. Ride it every weekend, and i hammer it when racing. Motor Problems??

[Splatter Matter]

Originally posted by Splatter Matter
those pic came from Mickey Dunlap his rider lost the water pump and when he tore it down he found the tranny problem.Bryan Cook GNCC pro class it his motor.here is the hole story.
http://www.bluetraxx.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=54145


his motor was a 470 not stock.

[Scottie Mac]

Originally posted by Sm0k3d
Exactly.. I don't think the yfz450 is so special.. just a wr450 dirt bike motor stuck into a quad frame with electric start. Atleast honda upgraded the insides of their motor and modified it to handle the extra abuse of a quad, yamaha didn't.

OK, if you are going to come on here and talk about a particular quad, whether it is positive or negative, at least get your facts straight. The YFZ450 is not a "wr450f motor in a quad frame". The YFZ has a different bore, upgraded clutch, differnet cam timing (which can be upgraded for free) and a different compression piston. The pics you posted are of a 470 RACE GNCC quad, WOW, it broke, I have never heard of a race quad breaking a motor. Tim Farr poped a couple of motors this year getting his set up ready for the tour. Does that mean the TRX is an unreliable machine? No. His motor is about as far from stock as you can get.

All quads have little "issues" here and there. The reason the 400ex is so reliable is becuase it makes @26 hp stock. The next genereation high output motors are not going to have the "run forever" reliability of the no power motors of old. But, even so, 99% of reliability is PROPER MAINTAINENCE! If you don't clean your air filter, change your oil/filter often, constantly shift without using your clutch, you will have motor issues.

There are more and more reports of TRXs having frame issues, there have been a few isolated cases of TRXs cracking cases, but neither is a common problem.

I think you could say the same for the YFZ. There ARE people who have had electrical problems. On Doug Gust's website there is a very nice, easy to understand explaination as to why this happens. There have been a few transmission problems. But, the quad has been out for a half year longer than the Honda. No quad is perfect, be happy we have the nice machines we have.

I have said it a million times, if ANYONE is interested in either of the quads, try to test ride both. That way the only person who matters in the decision, will make the decision.

Good luck,
Scott

[Johnson]

I got my yfz in October of last year and have got 16 races on it in A,pro class alot of play riding I almost never use the clutch and not any motor problems at all I did have to get a new stator.

[Sm0k3d]

you must be one of the lucky ones :D

[Johnson]

I have got four bubby's that got yfz's in January they race and all ride just as hard as me and no motor problems at all. also I'm really happy with the yfz's frame it handles get and is every strong last year I broke my 2003 honda 400ex frame in six different places and second gear went out in the middle of the year.

[Woody_YFZ]

All I have to say on this subject, is please buy my 450R from me, as it just sits here and needs someone to ride it. You ain't touching my YFZ. Sorry guys!!

[660bigdaddy]

i think i would trust woody's opinion the most, since he owns both... and one is forsale.

[freakystone]

Perhaps I should keep my nose out of this thread since I dont own a 450R.

However... I liken the YFZ to a Cannondale Speed. IMO. Fast and heck and great handling. But the YFZ is small. I am 6'2" and 230 lbs. I feel like I am riding a Blaster.

I am about to get new bars and raise them a little. I also hope to find a way to lower the pegs.

I have ridden a 450R. Nice ride. Really nice. Smoother power delivery, plusher ride, great ergos. The lack of push button starting kept me from taking a serious look at it.

All in all though, I love the YFZ.

[35charlie]

Originally posted by Scottie Mac
I have said it a million times, if ANYONE is interested in either of the quads, try to test ride both. That way the only person who matters in the decision, will make the decision.

Taking quads for a test ride only helps to make half the decision. Test rides do not allow you to discover the long-term reliability that only others' opinions and frequency of complaints show. Some of problems the YFZ has do seem quite common regardless of how many people "have never had that problem". I'm sorry, but with something as simple as an electrical system, there's no excuse for as many starting & charging problems as I've seen posted. I have a '99 400ex that has never seen a battery charger, or a failed anything for that matter.

YFZcentral has a thread stickied about notchy shifting trannys. Coupled with Yamaha's past with the '01 Raptor and notchy trannys on the Warrior and Banshee and I'm not surprised. Or how about Yamaha's choice of a rubber plug to block off the hole left by the decompressor shaft? Is a minor casting change really that tough? IMHO, that isn't the sign of a company with quality as a priority. I agree the R isn't up to par with the YFZ on the spec sheet, but I'll have a hard time believing the YFZ's quality is that of the Honda. I think time will show a much longer list of upgraded part numbers for the YFZ. I didn't want to be a Yamaha field tester with my hard earned cash.

I don't mean this to be a flame. I just think when people post threads asking about pros and cons, they want honest answers that they can research for themselves. These are just my opinions. Scottie, to add to what you said: Test ride both quads, and browse their forums. See what people are writing about their machines. You can then make a better choice that isn't just seat of the pants feel. In the end, everyone makes a choice where their priorities are. Mine happens to be reliability and ergos first, performance and power second. I think the Honda was a good choice for me.


On a separate topic: Two different people with '05 YFZ's I talked with at the dunes recently said the seat still sucks and they planned on getting them redone.

[Scottie Mac]

Charlie,

I actually agree with you on most of your post. Long term reliability can not be obtained until a product has been available to the public for a decent amount of time. The YFZ has been available to the public for 7 months longer than the TRX. A better comparison would be to see how well the Honda is holding up 6 months from now.

Now, to go over these problems.

The Electrics: I think it is best described by the only independent tester of date - Gouggust.com. Seeing that they are a factory Suzuki team, I tend to believe them over the average web rat. They clearly explain that the problems people have been having with the YFZ elecs is caused by overcharging of a 13 volt battery, which was an ignorant choice by Yamaha. VERY few people have or have even heard of a 13 volt charger. But, they were trying to save weight. Seeing that neither of my, nor any of the guys I ride/race with have had to charge a battery, we have had zero electrical problems.

The Transmission: Yamaha built a racing transmission for the YFZ. It is not as smooth as the Z I had, but I believe it is a better transmission for the track. Seeing that WAY more YFZs are actually making it to the track, where a machine is pushed to the limits, I am not surprised to see a few failures. Most races powershift, I know I do, and tend to go thru cluthces twice as fast as your average Joe. As your clutch wears out, it puts more and more stress on the transmission. I also think that maintenance has ALOT to do with transmission reliability. If you don't regularly change your oil, you WILL have transmission problems. These aren't 400exs, air cooled 25hp machines, they are next generation 40 plus hp high output motors. Therefore, they need more maintenance than the engines of old.

Decompression plug: well, there really is no excuse. That is why the 05s have this fix alreayd built in.

Seat: The 05 seat is softer than the 04, but it still isn't a Z seat. I actually think the 05 seat feels similar to the TRX seat. On the track, I prefer the 04 seat, but if I were a trail rider, I would upgrade.

Long term reliability is a double edged sword. It can be your friend one model and your enemy the next. Seeing that there are a ton more YFZs out there than TRXs, and the fact that they have been around for half a year longer, I feel confident in the YFZ. Every day I see more and more people with problems with the TRX. Frames breaking, transmission problems, and lets not forget about the few cases cracking. Again, many TRXs are finding there way to the track, where they are abused, so problems are going to come up. I do not think these problems are a precurser for a bad design, just isolated problems that arise from a first year machine. I know of a ton of 400ex riders who have had to change frames over the years because of breakage. Most of them were racers, WOW, what a surprise. Like I said, these are next generation 4 strokes designed to be pushed to the limits with simple mods. I truely beleive that the days of the "live forever" 4 stroke are gone. I would rather have a 40 plus hp quad that I have to properly maintain than an antiquated 25hp, air cooled machine I beat the crap out of and never take care of it. That is my opinion, my choice.

I personally would be happy with either. I am strickly a MX guy, and for the course, I believe I got the right quad. If money were no object, I would build a TRX as well, I don't think a person can have enough nice quads. Who knows, this may all be a mout point next June when the new Suzuki comes out.

Scott

[35charlie]

Thanks for your response, Scottie. I pretty much agree with what you said there and would also agree you made the right choice. You have a talent for stating your opinions well without really beating up the "other" side.

I just wanted to point out that the jury is still out on which machine is better when more things are considered than just performance. This probably doesn't matter to the race guys as much as the trail riders and duners.

I guess my opininion is that so far the Honda hasn't really shown any of those "no excuse" problems inherent in the design. (Yes, choosing 13V was a design problem when you consider a good design is also one that is more tollerant and easier to maintain). Was the failing stator related to this too? Just curious.

I'm sure the TRX will end up with its share of problems once more of them hit the track. It'll be interesting to compare which one holds up better for us non-racer guys. As you said, these machines do require a bit more maintenance, but mostly just more frequent oil changes for us recreational riders. I think the lower compression will help the Honda hold up a little longer.

I would have to say that frame cracking is an old issue for Honda. The 1985 350X has issues on the tube by your left leg. Coincidentally the 1986 had different gusseting. The two '85's I knew that cracked (one broke completely) did so when they were 10+ years old. Somehow Honda must have abuse tested and found the problem before 1986.

I do agree with what I've seen posted a number of times: It's great that we have choices in real modern ATV's from all compainies.

Anyway, enough talk... get out there and ride!!!

[MY450R]

i really cant believe you guys on here
ive ridden plenty of yfz's
one of my friends i ride with lets me ride his and he rides mine all the time
and not one is faster than the other
they are both the same.
both have the same mods and both are exactly the same we drag all the time and every time we are the same even if we switch.if you race around a track then its all rider not the quad

[kruzofman]

yea..thats what all the mags are saying.. i dont own a yfz of honda R but all the mags were just saying there are same

[#1speedbump]

As Scottie has said and many other knowledgable people on this site, they are very close and what is better is YOUR decision. I also looked heavily at the YFZ but after sitting on them for a lengthy period I knew it wasnt for me. Did the same with a TRX and bought it. Do I regret it NO. I ride strictley dunes and love the handling of my quad, it is not "tippy' as some have said, at least not for me. The power is there, could it use some more, what couldnt? Personally I sold my 250R to buy the 450R. I was not let down by any aspect of the 450. In stock form it is better IMO than all years on 250R's. They are two different animals.

Problems arise with all quads, fact of life. How you maintain your equipment will determine life expectancy. No quad in history has come out of the factory without issues. Engineering is not flawless. And we as riders are more abusive to our machines than Engineers give us credit for.

I know several people with both machines and like different stuff about each of them. Try to talk to people who dont start their conversation by saying " I Heard" or " The TRX/YFZ is garbage. People like this are either ignorant or brand loyal.

Good luck with your decision, it is one to think about. Either way I think you'll be happy. Also remember that it's your $$$ and you have to live with your decision, no on else.

[Scottie Mac]

Excellent reply!

Scott

[Pappy]

Originally posted by #1speedbump
As Scottie has said and many other knowledgable people on this site,

are you insane..noone here will ever tell you an honest thing :p

[jlhughes750]

I have a YFZ stock motor with a Sparks pipe and K&N...........

I got it last year @ Oct.

I have raced:
15 District 6 harescrambles = 23 hours
1 GNCC (Rausch)= 2 hours
6 Hours of Rausch= 5 hours (long story)
Practice 1 hour a week since March= 25 hours

Roughly 55-60 hours on the YFZ with NO problems!!!!!!!
Original piston, rings etc. its never been apart!!!! Original clutch !!

I raced R's for 10 years before I got the Yammi.... Mark Carman(close friend) just last week sold his Roll R (Smileys old race bike) after several happy years with it... He took the $ straight to the Honda dealer and brought home the 450R.(BLACK)...............he don't miss that Roll one bit!!!!!!


After several hours of comparing with several riders, we found the R to be more of a midrange top ender......the YFZ was more of the ground pounding torque monster.....I can easily pull outta bowl turns in 2nd and 3rd with the YFZ.....The R stalled midturn in second, like i was in 4th or something...... kinda the opposite of what "everyone" is saying..... The ride of the R was more plush and trail oriented, but sits way too high. Stock for stock, the YFZ is certainly more race ready, with its stiff MX like suspension and lower ride height.......

I like the R's kickstart, starts everytime!!!

[MY450R]

its all in how you ride you get used toi certain things and compensate for them
personally i found that the yfz is exactly the same (same mods as i have)i can wheelie out of corners with both etc etc
with the same maods there is not enough a difference to say that one is better faster than the other
the trx is not top heavy at all in fact the trx seat has more cushion so yes there is a difference but when your sitting on it no way
the only reason people think that it sits higher is because when you ride the yfz the handlebars are closer to your body while the trx's are more spread out
when you7 have more room on a quad peoples perception is that its higher up when it really is not

[MY450R]

ride height
trx 32.6
yfz 31.5
cushion thats all
1 inch and people say its top heavy
were not talking raptor here

[Scottie Mac]

Originally posted by Pappy
are you insane..noone here will ever tell you an honest thing :p

:D 'cept you

[35charlie]

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1091177/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1

http://www.bluetraxx.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=54931

http://www.yfzcentral.com/invision/index.php?act=ST&f=8&t=8808&st=0


The repairman said Yamaha had warranted 30 similar problems since January. They said the wristpin is short and shifts left or right in the piston causing the piston to cant slightly in the cylinder. When mine was torn down the piston was angled/canted in the cylinder and wristpin was shifted to 1 side.

Granted 30 problems out of thousands of machines isn't much, but ouch on the repair cost. A few guys on those threads were outside warranty too.

It's true that engineering isn't flawless, but there's definitely good and poor engineering.

[Sm0k3d]

Sorry buddy, but that is enough cases for me about motor problems, every one of those problems is because of lack of oil to the rod/cam/piston pin bearings. I think the main problem to this is because some one said that the yfz450 rod bearings are smaller than the wr450f bearings. Truely I think the double cam might be a better setup.. but I think the internals are not a good setup for some one who wants their bike to last, may be good for the extreme MX racer who rebuilds their bikes a lot.

[nhyfzrider]

they are all great until they break down. yes, even hondas break down.

[trick450r]

they have about 7-10 of the same yfz stories on trx450r.org ....what can i say the yfz is a loser

[trick450r]

they have about 7-10 of the same yfz stories on trx450r.org ....what can i say the yfz is a loser