What should I do first? Engine or Suspension?

[flying400ex]

Should I widen my quad and get some aftermarket shocks or should I get a 440 kit for me 400ex???

[NJ300ex]

Do you race and what kind of riding do you do?

depends on if you wanna drag race or jump
judging from your name I'd say suspension

[flying400ex]

I like to ride tracks and jump and all that but I also like to go fast. I was looking into a CT high output 440 kit or a TC 505. If I got arms and suspension I was looking into Housers arms and maybe some Elka's along with an elka rear shock and wider axel maybe a swingarm to. Whats your opinion?

[Adam496]

if ur going to do track riding get the suspension and such. cause the engin has engouh power to ride the track and hit the jumps. if u get the arms, axle, suspension ur landings will be good and the corners will be not tippy

[Dave400ex]

You want to do the Suspension/Chassis Stuff first. I would go with some Houser +2 A-Arms, Elka Triple Rate SSD Comp. Adjust Front Shocks, Houser +1-1/4 Swingarm, Elka Rear Shock Rebuild, Fastline Break Lines, RPM Axle, and a Axle Nut.

[kabd69667]

If you can't handle the power, whats the use in having it?

[optikid123]

i agree do chassis first because if you cant use your power to its full potential because your chassis wont hadle it you might as well not have a more powerful motor

I too recommend suspension first. I think you will enjoy the handling effects more than the high output effects, if tested side by side. My 2 cents..... Good luck!

[honda400exrider]

i think maybe do a little of both. how much are u willing to spend? i assume alot because you are planning on getting elkas but why dont you get a littlw bit cheaper shocks, then get maybe a 416/440, cam, gaskets, etc. good luck!:D

[ChadEXer]

I was having the same problem deciding. i just went out and robbed a bank so i could do both at the same time:D

[Dave400ex]

You could do a little of Both, but then you wouldn`t Worry about the Suspension as Much. Just go all Out on the Suspension. It is the Most important thing on a Quad. Then Mod the Motor.

[flying400ex]

I am willing to spend around 2500 to 3000 on the suspesion a-arms and everything else. What can I get for this?

[Dave400ex]

A-Arms, Swingarm, Steering Stem, Elka Front Triple Rate SSD Comp. Ajust Front Shocks, Elka Rear Rebuild, and a RPM Dominator Axle. I think that will be around $2400. You could also get a RPM Axle Carrier, and a New Axle Nut.

[flying400ex]

Is that with the long travel arms for 19'' shocks?

[Dave400ex]

No. You would be over $3000 with all that Stuff and the Long Travel Shocks and A-Arms. They would be the Way to Go though.

[400exRacerX]

I wouldn't get a new swingarm until you crack the POS stocker.;)

[flying400ex]

those long travel arms for the 19'' shocks are 800 and shocks are probably in the 800 range so around 1600 for the front and 300 or more for axel and about 700-800 for a rear shock so, about 2600 or 2800 right?

[Dave400ex]

The 19" Long Travel A-Arms are $800. The Long Travel Elka Shocks are around $1100. You will want to get the New Quad Rate Fronts. Ask Jeff from the Quadshop about them. A RPM Axle is $370, and the Rear Shock should be around $750 to $950. That`s a Good Setup.

[flying400ex]

The long travel arms are alot better then the regular +2 arm right? Does works make a long travel shock?

[Dave400ex]

Yeah the Long Travel A-Arms would be a lot better then Normal A-Arms. I guess some of it Depends on how High you Jump. The Long Travel would Soak the Jumps up better. If you have the Money for Long Travel, go for it. I don`t think Works makes Long Travel Shocks. Elka and Axis are the only Companies I know of.

[James70214]

PEP Also MAkes Long Travel Shcks

[Dave400ex]

They do. I didn`t know that.

[NJ300ex]

Works actually does make long travel shocks but not really. The shocks for the DS650 are long travel and works sells triple rates and the pro piggybacks for the DS650. You could get these but they wouldn't be sprung right.

[Dave400ex]

I would just get the New Elka Quad Rates with the Houser Long Travel A-Arms.

[400MXer]

I say...with the proposed budget you have set....don't get the long travel...and use that extra money for a good exhaust pipe...that way you will still have a killer suspension with the elka and houser, and you will also have a little extra power to boot. WIth the money get a TC, Duncan, or Curtis sparks pipe. then you'll have a quad that is improved all around and your still within' your 2500-3000 budget.

[Dave400ex]

You could do that too. That`s a Good Idea. Do you really need Long Travel?

[400MXer]

i have no clue....the only long travel i've ridden was the loboII kit, a guy at the track i ride at has it, but i didn't get to really give it a good test, i didn't want to damage his quad....it did ride nice but i'm not really sure...someone must know exactly.....it must help or all the pro's wouldn't use it.

[Dave400ex]

I guess you are Right, but none of us are Pro`s. I think some Laeger A-Arms would Work Great.

[400MXer]

none of us are pro's YET.....i'm workin' on it:D

This is what I did:

Get +4 Lonestar Axle, then Get Lonestar +2 +1 or +3 +1 A-Arms ( I got +3 +1) then Get PEP Limited Mass Shocks.

Shocks=$750

A-Arms=$735

Axle=$350
--------------------
Total=$1835

Then You have money for your engine.

[Dave400ex]

Yeah I`m going to be the next Bill Ballance.

That is a Good Setup 400exRacer. You have to do something to the Rear Shock though.

Yeah, Im waiting for it to blow so i can take it up to BaldwinMotorsports and have them redo it for my specifications.

[Dave400ex]

You could do that. Are you going to do the Limited Mass Rebuild?

It all depends on one thing, $$$$$.

I already have over 4K invested in it

[Dave400ex]

I think the Limited Mass Rebuild is $280. Do you have any Pictures of your 400? It sounds Nice.

Dont have any pics now but i will tell you what i got.


From the ground up:

18'' MX Razrs on Champion Beadlocks, Grooved Fronts on douglas .190, LSR 3+1 a-arms with red brakelines, PEP limited mass fronts w/ black shockwears f/r , +4 LSR axle, AC Propegs Swingarm Belly skids and Bumper, FMF exhaust, K&N powerkit w/ Stage 2 jets, outerwears airbox cover, Renthal bars and sprockets, oury grip, Red pro desing kill switch, Race cut fenders and with number plates(#9)and tons of stickers. Theres probably other stuff that i forgot. Oh well.

[Dave400ex]

That sounds Nice.

why save for Elkas when you could save for PEP, TCS, or Axis

[Dave400ex]

I think the Elka`s are the Best for the Price. Plus, all the other Brands have a Long Wait. Who knows what the PEP Wait is. We got a Wait from 8 Week to 6 Months. TCS Shocks are more for MX Racing. Axis are way to Expensive. I might as well Buy a Lobo Front End.

what kind of riding do you do.

[Dave400ex]

XC Riding and some day Racing.

Get TCS for 850 at KandKatv

[Dave400ex]

No I want to the Elka`s. I have heard nothing but good stuff about them. If I don`t get Elka, PEP would be Second.

Here you go, Elka's are not good because they are bad. haha

Seriously go w/ PEP.

[Dave400ex]

What? What is Wrong with Elka? They are just as Good as the others. If I didn`t have to Wait forever, I would get PEP`s, but I am not Waiting that Long.

Believe me tey are worth the wait.

[Dave400ex]

I don`t know. Everybody has said get Elka. I think they are the Best for the Money. I would like PEP`s, but I`m only 15. I really don` t have the Money for ZPS Shocks.

[mrusk]

I dont understand why half you guys complain about the pep wait. Its not like you guys are building a quad or putting your together and abouslutly NEED the shocks to put the thing together. If you dont NEED NEED the shocks right away order the peps. You dont pay till your shocks are shipped anyway. So whats the big deal!

matt

[Dave400ex]

Well I would like to Order some PEP Shocks right Now, but my Luck I still wouldn`t have all the Money when they were Done. Actually that won`t Work for me beacuse I would Rebuild the Rear and I still wouldn`t be able to Ride. I could just Buy a New ZPS Rear.

[mrusk]

The rear conversion only takes a couple of weeks.

matt

[trx400ex]

mark baldwin rebuilt my peps the day he got them , and shipped them the next day....... i think pep is the best,, everyone is getting pumped up about elkas, they are surley good, but i think the pep zps still riegns supreme:D

[Texan32]

I think exracer said it best. Go with a good set of a-arms (Houser, Laeger, Lonestar are all good products) and some good shocks. If you do mostly XC type riding, +1 a-arms would be a better choice. +2's may be a little too wide for the tight spots, but its just a personal preference. If your going to be doing all around riding and if you want to save a little bit of $$, i would go with works shocks. Personally, thats my next purchase. (and i plan on doin a little racing too) If you do decide on going with elka's, DON'T get the SSD's. That will lower you suspension an inch or two. With the new front shocks, you also should have your rear shock revalved and resprung. Don't buy a new one, most shock builders will just rebuild your factory one. A new axle couldn't hurt either. Since your bringing the front out, +2 axle would be good. I would go Lonestar or RPM. Hi highly suggest staying away from Dura blew. They have a bad reputation with their cust. service. A new set or rear tires are a good idea. Alot of people rave about the holeshots. I run bandits and love them.

Lets add it up.
Houser A-arms=550
Works shocks=700
Revalved rear shock=250
Lonestar axle=340
Bandits= 50ea

Totals to about 1950 bucks...giver or take a little here and there.

That still leaves you with a healthy summ for doing some motor work. A real popular setup is the JE 416 kit and XR cam...along with a pipe and jet kit.

The 416 kit with XR cam=300
WB e-series slip on=240 (use you stock header, just grind the welds where the header bolts up to the engine block)
K&N filter and jet kit=100

so grand totaling about 2600 smackers.

All of that together would make one **** of a SWEET ride. Especially for us weekend warriors!

I live 40 minutes from Baldwin. I took my shocks up there on Monday and got them on Friday. I got +3 aarms because mine is strickly racing. I personably dont like elkas. Seen to many of them break or blow same w/ works. Get PEP!

I would Go with Razrs. They are pretty cheap and you could buy some rims or beadlocks.

[Texan32]

if you get rims, do yourself a HUGE favor. Spend a few exra bones and get race rims or bead locks. They have reenforced rings along the bead. If not, you are better off staying with stock wheels. Aftermarket ones (unless you pay for rolled beads) won't hold up like the stock ones will.

[Dave400ex]

How Long would it take to Rebuild the Rear to ZPS? I might have to Call Baldwin some time. I would like PEP. They do Cost more Money though. I will have to see what Gabe thinks of his.

For a Setup Get:
Laeger +1 or +2 A-Arms $578
PEP Limited Mass Front Shocks $750
PEP Limited Mass Rear Rebuild $280
RPM Dominator Axle $370

You will need some Tires depending on what you Ride. If you MX or XC, I would go with Holeshots or Razrs.

For the Engine, I would just Save and go all Out. Do a TC National Motor for $1500. Bye, Bye, Raptors.

[flying400ex]

How much for the ZPS shocks?
How much for the Elka quad rates?

[NJ300ex]

400exracer, please don't give incorrect information or biased opinions. I do not claim to know alot about shocks but I have learned a lot from the year or more I have been on this forum and others.

TCS uses the same shock bodies and materials as Elka. They are the same exact thing except for the valving. If you feel that for the extra money TCS can setup your shocks better than elka then go ahead and get TCS. Ask Gabe about this if you do not believe me.

You seem to like PEP a whole lot. Maybe because you live quite close to them? You own the limited mass shocks and are saying PEP are the best. The limited mass are works with different valving. Your PEP's are as prone to breaking shafts as works. If you had PEP ZPS it would be a different story, but you don't. Elkas are a whole lot less prone to failing than any PEP shock besides the ZPS.

Do you mind telling everyone where you have seen Elka shocks break or blow? I'm having trouble believing that the statements you make are true.

I am not backed by Elka or anything like that, I just feel that Elka is putting out a great product for alot less than the competition and they should be supported rather than companies that are charging alot more. Although i do believe PEP puts out an excellent product.

Sorry about the book guys.

:)

[honda400exrider]

i allready am matt coulter/ steve abbtt/ bill balance/ and will yokley! LOL! But i have a question, does yer bike have to be super PHAT for you to be pro? in other words could bill balance be good on a stock 400ex/250r/300ex/a POS? thanx because some o u guys put $100000000000000000000000 on yer bikes and i don't know if you are any good (no offense to anybody) thanx again!:D

Listen here boy. I have a homemade track with a 70ft tabletop.
I was riding with my buddies. A 400 a Raptor and a Banshee.
The raptor had Elkas and the 400 and Banshee had Works. You all now that i have PEP. So we were riding for awhile and we said "Wow we need to clear that jump." I cleared it after a few tries with no shock problems. The Craptor(w/ Elkas) cleared it but when he looked at his shocks, the left one was bent almost to a 90 degree angle. The other 400 blew a shock when he landed. The banshee didnt even clear it. So PEP are where its at.

[Dave400ex]

I have also Done some Great Shock Research.

The TCS are using the Elka Shafts with some different Parts. The main difference is the Valving. I think TCS are more for mX Racing.

The Limited Mass do have a 5/8th Shaft.

As for Bending a Shaft, they need to learn how to land right. I have never heard of Bending a 5/8th Shaft. If Top Pro`s don`t Bend their Elka Shafts, you Guys shouldn`t.

I think the Elka Shocks are the Best all around Shock you can Buy. They use better Parts then Works, TCS, PEP, and even Axis. If Elka gets their Valving figured out, watch out PEP Guys.

[NJ300ex]

Originally posted by 400exracer
Listen here boy. I have a homemade track with a 70ft tabletop.
I was riding with my buddies. A 400 a Raptor and a Banshee.
The raptor had Elkas and the 400 and Banshee had Works. You all now that i have PEP. So we were riding for awhile and we said "Wow we need to clear that jump." I cleared it after a few tries with no shock problems. The Craptor(w/ Elkas) cleared it but when he looked at his shocks, the left one was bent almost to a 90 degree angle. The other 400 blew a shock when he landed. The banshee didnt even clear it. So PEP are where its at.

OK boy, listen up. Do you have any pictures of this? I don't see how a shock with a 5/8 inch shaft would bend before shocks with half inch shafts. The only way i see it bending is if the guy endoed on this jump and landed front wheels first amazingly hard. I would expect works to break because they are cheap. As far as other people not making it ever think it might be the rider? But yet again this whole story might be bullshi* and we will never know because it is over the internet.

[Dave400ex]

Listen, You get your PEP Shocks, and I will get Elka. Who cares what is Better? In the End it comes down to what we like better.

[NJ300ex]

Warriorman were you talking to me?

Nice way to put it. Its all about the price and your preference.
You dont have to believe my story a few threads ago but believing it would be the smart thing to do because it is true.
Saw it with my own eyes. And why would i have a camera with me on the 400.

[Dave400ex]

I was talking to all the Guys Fighting. It is Coming down to Price for me. Plus none of us need PEP ZPS.

[Honda Guy]

Are the elka quad rates really that much better than elka triple rates? WHY?

Nobody needs the ZPS thats why i bought the Limited mass

[trx400ex]

Originally posted by 400exracer
Nobody needs the ZPS thats why i bought the Limited mass

why do you say that? in that case no one needs the pep limited mass:confused:

it comes down to whatever fits your budget, and what you like period

[Dave400ex]

The Limited Mass Shocks will Work better for us then the ZPS anyways. The ZPS are made to make the Quad Ride Lower, but they also have to Hit Big Jumps to let the Shocks Fully Extend. If the Shocks are going over a bunch of little Jumps they are going to Suck because they can`t Fully Extend. That`s why Baldwin told my Brother to get Limited Mass. Baldwin said for the Local Tracks that have little Jumps you don`t need ZPS. He said the Limited Mass will Work better. That`s why I don`t understand Guys Buying them.

[mrusk]

I am sure if a C class rider had his zps set up for C class they would perform fine for him.

matt

[James70214]

TO fully extend you need to go like 8 inches off the ground. They will work awesome as long as you tell them you race c clas, not say you do 80 ft freestyle jumps just to sound cool.

[shook]

Suspension will make your bike fster around a track than a motor will,Houser a arms with custom axis suspension houser swing arm, and an RPM axle.then your set go sky it.

[flying400ex]

"Are the elka quad rates really that much better than elka triple rates? WHY?"


How much diffrence will you feel?

I would never pay that much for shocks and have to wait six months for any shocks. People talk about how pep are so great then why does the best mxer in the world uses custom axis. Thats right jeremiah jones uses custom axis. Yes pep are good shocks but there are many just as good. I think pep needs to get a bigger plant to make the shocks at becouse alot of people by others becouse of the wait.

[Dave400ex]

Well if the Shocks are Dialed in for the Certain Rider, they will be Awesome. I`m just saying what Baldwin told me. He said Limited Mass is ok until you get into doing the Nationals.

[mrusk]

dave400- I think Jones is one of the only top pros running axis. I think the difference between axis and pep is just personal peference. Pep is rolling in the $ even with the 6 month wait. Pep is cheaper than axis and has twice as long of a wait, and still more people run them. What does this tell you??? Think about it!

matt

[Dave400ex]

Mrusk Hit the Nail on the Head. When PEP has a Six Month Wait and Guys still want them over Axis, you know they are Great Shocks.

[flying400ex]

How much diffrence will you feel with quad rates instead of triple rate elka's?

[Dave400ex]

PM Jeff@QuadShop and Ask. You can tell you for Sure.

[flying400ex]

Do the +2Wide and +0Forward need the 19'' shocks or do they use the 16''? Would a +2W +1F or 1/2F be better or is it better just to go 0 F?

[shook]

I believe that the 3 best shocks out there are:
CUSTOM AXIS

TCS

ELKA Ive heard good and bad about PEP have several friends that race they have tried PEP and said they were not real happy with them.HOW EVER IM NOT SAYING THEY ARE BAD SHOCKS JUST NOT AS GOOD AS THE OTHERS BUT BETTER THAN WORKS BY FAR.

[Dave400ex]

Now I agree with Axis and Elka, but not TCS. TCS are good Shocks, but I don`t see to many at the Race Track. I think PEP is a lot better then TCS. Again, that is my Opinion.

[flying400ex]

Do the +2Wide and +0Forward need the 19'' shocks or do they use the 16''? Would a +2W +1F or 1/2F be better or is it better just to go 0 F?

i think that it depends on ur riding but i would do the 440 kit because i am not to big of a jumper

[400MXer]

PEP isn't in your top three....your friends either don't know what they are talking about, or they didn't have them set up well...because PEP should be 1st or 2nd on that list. If PEP is so bad...why do most pro's run them. Tell me one pro that runs TCS in national MX racing.

[Dave400ex]

I think PEP is better then Axis. Not many Pro`s run Axis. I would say PEP, Axis, Elka, and then TCS.

[James70214]

Warrorman
You should try out those 3 kinds of shocksbefore youi make your little list of which one is better? Why would you say PEP is better than Axis, other than Most pros run pep

[Chef]

I would do the suspension before the engine...I've already done it the other way. We ended having to spend more money because we made the motor to much for the stock suspension...

[mrusk]

I agree with James. Warriorman how many of those shocks have you acctually rode. How many racers have you acctually talked to about shocks? You can not just base your decision on what is best by what you read hear on this website. If a guy buys a pair of Brand A shocks becuase he hears they are the best and then rides his girlfriends husbands brother in laws quad with Brand B and likes brand B better do you think he is going to tell people brand B is better than A? I dont.

Give people advice on your personal expernise not internet hearsay.

I am friends with several local racers, many of them have rode all the brands on shocks and when it comes down to it PEP and Axis are the best. Which one is better? Neither. The difference is different for everyone. Some people prefer pep and some prefer axis.

matt

[Dave400ex]

I just think PEP is better then Axis. I have talked to many Racers about Shocks. My Brother and I stood and talked to the Nac`s Riders and Crew Guys at Red Bud last year. They all said Axis and PEP. I don`t care what anybody says, but if the Shocks weren`t Good, the Top Pro`s wouldn`t Run them. Sorry for what I said.

[400MXer]

Don't be sorry...your just giving your opinion.

I've riden PEP limited mass shocks, a 400 with the LoboII front end, a raptor with TCS, and a quad with ohlins....of those three, i likes the limited mass PEP's the best....the only reason i'm not picking LOBOII was because i never really tested them out...the guy just got them, and i didn't want to go out and beat the F**K out of his quad before he has. the TCS were not bad, they guy had them way to stiff. and the ohlins weren't bad either. I haven't ridden PEP ZPS yet...but i will in a few days.

[Dave400ex]

Thanks 400MXer. Maybe I should Ride your 400 so I know how the PEP ZPS are. LOL.

[James70214]

That is the worst way to test shocks. That is on differeent quads.

[Dave400ex]

What are you talking about James?

[James70214]

Warriorman
He tryed 4 different kinds of socks on 3 different quads. It would be ebtter if he tryed 4 different shocks onn the same quad.

[Dave400ex]

Well I agree with you there. Riding any Quad would give a Good Idea on how the Shocks work though. Which Shocks have you Rode on?

[400MXer]

all the shocks were on 400's except for the TCS shocks.....and i sure as **** ain't gonna buy all the shocks and test them....do you think i'm made of money. jk:D

[Dave400ex]

I know this is Crazy, but Gabe has Bought and Tested every Shock on his 400ex. He didn`t Buy Axis, but he Tested a Friends Set.

[James70214]

Well I have tested Axis on 2 quads including mine. A set of PEPS and a 250r with elkas and a 400 with legacy shocks.

[Dave400ex]

How did they Compare James?