my front end rides like CHIT...

[Tommy 17]

well i just got off riding the 406... heres the deal...


a stock blown out shock on a stk front end rode better then this junk...:o



heres my problem as you can see in this picture here is the ride height of the quad after i push down on it compared to a stk... this is just pushin down with my hands... i've compressed 3 of the 4 springs almost...

[Tommy 17]

heres how much shock shaft is left...

[Tommy 17]

heres it is extended out...

[Tommy 17]

heres where the preload is set... this is where it was sent from elka... i measured the bottom of the frame at 8.5 inches...

[Tommy 17]

now heres the main problem... when i hit ANYTHING it bottoms the front shocks out... u can stand on the front bumper jump and it will bottom out...

the shocks are set for 160-170 gncc i'm 152lbs... 155 with gear... my friend is 165 and he really bottoms these things out BAD...


any jump you hit... any bump you hit... they bottom...


now when it does bottom it feels like theres no rebound to the shocks at all... feels like they want to stay bottomed out and it Sucks bad...


my std travel elka burgard front end would run circles around this and if this is how 1700$ feels WOW is it junk...

[Bill Fuller]

Add more preload.That will raise the ride height and give you better travel.Have you tried stiffer springs?

[Tommy 17]

pappy just told me crack the preload down a full inch...


i did and it was still the same... it gets stuck in the same spot as last time...


its almost like either the shock geometry is way off or arens screwed up makin the geometry of the a-arms... it feels like they don't want to rebound at all... they just wanna stay pretty much compressed...

[Ralph]

junkadunk

[batgeek]

:(

how much more preload do have available? try smacking it down even more.

when it stops does it feel like its binding, thus making it stop? then yeah, geometry problem on the arms :(

[Ralph]

Originally posted by Tommy 17
pappy just told me crack the preload down a full inch...


i did and it was still the same... it gets stuck in the same spot as last time...


its almost like either the shock geometry is way off or arens screwed up makin the geometry of the a-arms... it feels like they don't want to rebound at all... they just wanna stay pretty much compressed...

this kinda stuff happens when you are the first person to mount a set even over arens, i doubt he has got his arens set yet thats why he couldnt test it yet......

[300exOH]

Did you measure the ride height WITH rider or the quad by itself? You should be measuring it while you're on the quad.

[Tommy 17]

me on the quad in full riding gear...


i cranked the preload down again another inch... and it fixed the problem some but heres what i'm thinking...


when pappys YFZ had a bind in his rear shock with the linkage hitting the rear skid plate the shocks felt exactly the same... the further u go threw the travel the more it felt like it wanted to stay there and the more it didn't want to work smooth...


now as i cranked the pred load down it raised the shock travel up... now i'm gettin more of the shock where there is not a bind and thats why its smooth at 1st but after a certain point its like hitting a brick wall... after i get to a certain point in the travel the shock pretty much goes to a jar and wants to stop... then it won't come back up and all the sudden it seems like it releases and comes back perfect... if i don't take a super hard hit and fly down a trail it runs PERFECT like i'm on air... then after i take a hard hit it seems like its fine til that certain point again...


i know what a correct set feels like i had std travel elkas for over a year and they were nothing like this... i've rode many front ends and i've never felt ANYTHING like this b4... stock is seriously better...

[Guy400]

This is odd because wasn't John working with Elka directly on this front end?

[Tommy 17]

i heard they were but it ain't worth anything...


i know they changed the shock length last min from 19 1/4 to 18 3/4... i dunno if thast why it wont work right or not but its horrible...

what about lowering the circlips to raise the ride height?

if theres no clips then screw the top preload nut down a inch on each front shock to raise the height.

sounds like the springs/valving is off

[Tommy 17]

beerock i screwed the preload down almost 1 1/2 - 2 inches... still not better

[INFANTRY RACING]

you got the comp turned all the way up.

mines set for 225 and i can bottom it jumping on the bumper and can compress it alot by pushing down

[bradley300]

tommy, in case you didnt know, elka sends all of thier shocks out on the slowest rebound settings and softest compression and pre load. i just got the rear shock for the blaster and it has everything full soft/slow

[Tommy 17]

i don't have rebound...


i went up to 7 clicks compression NOTHING worked...


i also added tons of preload... nothing is helping...

[INFANTRY RACING]

you got 21..keep going

[Tommy 17]

but what i'm sayin is if the 1st 7 didn't change i don't think 21 will...


its not even close to being right... and me being 10lbs under i shouldn't have to add any compression to stiffen the shock... the shock is already 2 hard when it binds... thats teh problem its 2 ruff...

[INFANTRY RACING]

most elkas have a hard hit in the stroke. ceck all the cross overs to make sure they are right and transfering right

[Tommy 17]

i'll ask jeff tomorrow which way they all should be and make sure they are correct...

Should look like the shock on the left in this pic...

[Lethalhonda2]

I hope the problem is in your shocks cause one more problem with these a-arms and I'm going to get :mad: I bought Elka shocks when they first came out and they were set up totally wrong. I'm still waiting on my Axis shocks, hopefully mine will be ok with the A-arms. Of course I had to send them the specs John gave me so who knows what I'll get!

http://ricoracing.netfirms.com/Smilies/ugone2far.gif


Tammy why the hell didn't you go with a setup that already has been tested and works.. You and lethal sounds like some guniea pigs but at your own expense..http://ricoracing.netfirms.com/Smilies/rotz.gif

Good luck but it sounds like the shocks are setup wrong to me. Not blaming elka but if you ordered say Houser LT all woulda been perfect by now and you woulda had it all setup a month ago.

Originally posted by Rico
http://ricoracing.netfirms.com/Smilies/ugone2far.gif


Tammy why the hell didn't you go with a setup that already has been tested and works.. You and lethal sounds like some guniea pigs but at your own expense..http://ricoracing.netfirms.com/Smilies/rotz.gif

Good luck but it sounds like the shocks are setup wrong to me. Not blaming elka but if you ordered say Houser LT all woulda been perfect by now and you woulda had it all setup a month ago.

come on rico, how many times has elka sent shocks out set up wrong???

tommy sounds like the springs are too soft and the valving well, for now, id put stiffer springs in the shocks and once the bke stops sagging to much then work on the valving.

Arens is the last person i would worry about when it comes to a-arms.then again everyone can screw up.

[Tommy 17]

lethal don't get ur hopes up... i think my front end will be goin back after today... i hope i can get my money back there is barly any time on the a-arms


the only chip is where the john made the spindels hit and thats his fault...:o


rico the reason i bought arens was the reputation he had on his frames... u ever hear of a bad 250r frame frome him or one crack???? i never have and that was pretty much it... plus the price was right...

something has to be majorly wrong here... i wish dave or lethal would get theirs running soon so they can tell me if theirs is like mine so i can eliminate the a-arms or shocks from it...

[boogiechile]

It is possible that your compressed length of the shock does not match your suspension. You said your frame height is 8.5 inches. That is about perfect if that is with you sitting on it. If so preload adjustment is set ok. That only leaves two things that would cause bottoming: too soft of springs or too short compressed length. I know everyone is gonna say valving but if the springs are right it should not bottom very hard even on a soft compression setting. If you want help in determing the proper compressed length to compare to your actual shock length let me know.

[Tommy 17]

Originally posted by boogiechile
If you want help in determing the proper compressed length to compare to your actual shock length let me know.


i'd appreciate ANY help to get this fixed... i'm dieing to ride and find out what the problem is...

Originally posted by BeeeRock!
come on rico, how many times has elka sent shocks out set up wrong???



Making shocks work with A-arms that are not even on the market would be a tuff thing to do. I'm guessing Elka had to guess at everything unless John has sent these exact same arms to them for testing. If he hasn't then elka did all they could do with the shocks. GUESS at everything...

[redrunner]

OK just a little comment and by no means do I claim any knowledge on suspension but just a question to you tommy because I am waiting for my elkas as we speak (type). did you do a build sheet for elka or were you just given dimensions by arens? I know you guys know this stuff measuring all the pivot points and extended and compressed a arm mounting points, but is would seem one of the most critical would be the pivot to lower shock mount. If all that was done with arms mounted on the bike how could they screw up like that.:confused:

[Tommy 17]

well i talked to jeff... he said set the ride height at 8.5 and try playin with the compression...so i backed the preload off to 8.5 i ran it at 5 compression 8.5 for a couple mins and it felt a lil better but its still not right...


he told me to pull the shocks off and move the a-arms to see if theirs a bind... i'll be goin up to do that soon and see if i can find anything...


if i can't find a bind hes gonna send me stiffer springs to see if that will help stop the bottoming...

[boogiechile]

ok, here is what i suggest doing just to make sure the setup is right.

- Take all the shocks off (rear also)
- put a 2x4 under the frame laying flat and going across at each end (one under the peg area and one at frt just before the frame rakes up)
- let the quad down til it rest on the boards (if it wont go down that far without binding the ball joints your arms are messed up, send them back)
- with it sitting on the boards measure the distance between shock mount holes center to center
- now push the shocks rubber bottom out snubber up a little and measure the distance from the bottom of the body to the part of the shock that would hit the shock body if it were compressed completely without the snubber being there. That is the flat area inside the red spring seat on an Elka. (you are trying to get the compressed metal to metal distance here) Subtract that measurement from the extended center eye to center eye length of the shock. You now have the compressed length of the shock.
_ compare the measurement from the quad to the compressed length of the shock ( should be very close to the same) If the shock is shorter remove the boards and let the quad down until the shock mounts are equal distance apart to the compressed length of the shock. How high is the frame at this point? does it hit the ground? if it is close to the ground you will bottom very easily. 1.5 inches is about perfect but you may be ok with an inch here.


while you are at it you should go ahead and determine your motion ratio. You can then give this to the shock builder to find out the right spring and see if that is what you have. to do this you will have to:

- leave the shocks off
- raise the quad and sit it up on something level that is high enough to keep the wheels off the ground when they are hanging down. make sure the frame is secure and not going to rock back and forth.
- raise one frt tire untill the distance between the shock mounts is the same as the extended length of the shock and hold it there somehow. pick a point like the bottom edge of the rim at 6 oclock and measure from there to the floor. record measurement.
- raise the tire until the distance between the shock mounts is the same as the compressed length of the shock and hold it there. measure the distance from the rim to the floor at the same place on the rim.
- now for the math

rim distance from floor (up) - rim distance from floor (down) / shock extended length - shock compressed length = motion ratio

All this make sense or just confusing you. Let me know.

[Tommy 17]

Originally posted by redrunner
OK just a little comment and by no means do I claim any knowledge on suspension but just a question to you tommy because I am waiting for my elkas as we speak (type). did you do a build sheet for elka or were you just given dimensions by arens? I know you guys know this stuff measuring all the pivot points and extended and compressed a arm mounting points, but is would seem one of the most critical would be the pivot to lower shock mount. If all that was done with arms mounted on the bike how could they screw up like that.:confused:


i didn't get any measurements at all... the only thing i gave jeff was my riding style... my weight with gear on... +1 arens a-arms...


john sends his info on the shocks to elka and when jeff calls in the shocks he tells them arens +1 160-170 gncc riding... arens talked to elka and they decided on what the best set up for the shocks would be i guess...

on the box where it has the valving and all that stuff with the shocks it says ARENS +1 160 - 170 GNCC elka quadrate compression and preload...

[Tommy 17]

Originally posted by boogiechile


All this make sense or just confusing you. Let me know.


all of this makes perfect sense to me and i'll do it all here in a lil bit... i'm here alone right now and i think i'll need a hand from my dad when he gets home at 2... i'll do those measurements and check it all out... i understand what ur saying perfectly very good info!!!


thanks boogiechile!!!!!!

[Ralph]

maybe elka is still waiting on the specs of his a-arms? i wouldnt be suprised

[Guy400]

It's past 2:00, did you look at the things boogiechile suggested yet?

[Tommy 17]

i'll be goin up in about 10 mins to work on it...


i was waiting for my dad to get done with his reloading for his match saturday...

[Tommy 17]

i have the shocks off it and sitting on the gorund and i relized this... and i dunno if it should be doing it...


when the a-arms go up they give the quad toe in... its a noticeable amount mayb a full inch or so... could this be the problem??? i'll go get a exact measurement of how much toe in if i have 2 but its quiet a bit...


could this be the reason its ruff late in the travel??? its stopping the quad bc the wheels are / \ if u look at it from above???


i didn't do any other measurements yet bc if this is the problem i'm not doin them all for nothing...

[boogiechile]

The toe will change by as much as 2 inches on many quads. You probably do not have a problem there. That is the bump steer in your quad. Go ahead and make the measurements. The design of a steering stem with tie rods close together and a arms that are further apart is going to cause toe to change through the travel. be leary of any claims to zero bumpsteer if the setup remains even close to the same. The only way to significantly reduce it is to narrow the frame like a Roll with the single bottom rail or add in some idler linkage like a Polaris Predator has.

By the way, if your Dad is good enough to help you with all this be sure and thank him. Tell him you know you are fortunate to have a great dad and you love and appreciate him. may sound corny but it is very important and it sounds like you have a great dad. Count your blessings.

Greenestreak Racing Projects (http://www.picturetrail.com/mojaveaddict)

[Tommy 17]

aight boogie thanks!!! i'll go take the measurements soon as i get done eating...


yeah i know i'm lucky to have a dad that does help me work on my quad and supports me riding... he knows i appreciate it! me and my dad have a good relationship...

[Ralph]

Originally posted by boogiechile
Greenestreak Racing Projects (http://www.picturetrail.com/mojaveaddict)

WOW, i am extremely amazed by what you have done to that mojavi, thats just nuts and looks extremely nice. How does she handle and how much did she run you? that is awesome and i give you mad props and you realy know your stuff...

[Tommy 17]

here boogie child i did exactly what u said and heres what i've come up with...

sitting on board center to center is 13 5/8

shock metal to metal 5 1/2

shock eye to eye 18 3/4

compressed length of the shock is 13 1/4

to get 13 1/4 on the quad from shock mount to a-arm mount we had to sorta hold it and measure with 2 people it was hard but we came up with right around 3 inches to 3.25 off the ground from the frame at the motor mounts to the ground...

a-arms extended from the bottom of the tire 6 o clock to the ground is 9 inches...

a-arms compressed to 13 1/4 (compressed shock) is 19 1/4

thats 10 inches of wheel travel...


19.25-9.25 / 18.75-13.25 =
10 / 5.5 =1.8181818181...

so my motion ratio is 1.81818181????

[boogiechile]

Tommy, I forgot to tell you to let ALL the air out of the frt tires when you check the compressed length of the mounts. If they have stiff side walls and do not sag down a little with the air out then push them down a little to simulate tire flex on a landing when you measure.

Ralph, thanks for the nice compliments. I do not have that much in them since I make a arms, swing arms, steering steems, frame mods and about everything else myself. The #6 runs and handles well but I am just finishing the super Mo. Time will tell on it. Check out this thread about how it runs and handles, read "out siders" post on page two.

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=103148&perpage=15&highlight=ditch%20mojave&pagenumber=1

[Tommy 17]

boogie are u talkin about when the quad is sitting on the board without any shocks????


if so its 13 3/8 now or 13.375

[redroost85]

Sorry to hear about all the problems with your new setup Tommy. I know how long you waited for all your stuff.....now ya got it and chit ain't right!:grr:

Frustrating, I know man, we've all been there dude. Hopefully someone on here can hook you up.:)

[boogiechile]

yes squish the tires down a little when it is sitting on the boards and then make the measurement.

13 3/8 is close to what it should be. How about the shock measurement, what did you get there? It is probably around 13 inches compressed but I need to know exactly what you got on the measurements.

[Lethalhonda2]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid121/pf3700ef1332751f465a5b531facbaf0c/f85217ec.jpg
Tommy17 I would love to help but I have more problems of my own. The front motor mount are off by a long shot!! I cant even get a socket on one of the lower mounts, so I have to use a open ended wrench.

[Lethalhonda2]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid121/pcd1efaf610cb1e2e5059f3ae431719b0/f852051b.jpg


I got 3 of the 4 bolts to go in the subframe but the 4th is giving me problems.Once again parts not fitting:mad:

[Greg Z]

you sure you put the a-arms on right? and tierods and all?

[Tommy 17]

boogie i'll get that measurement for u in a min i thought u only needed the one i'm sry...


lethal THAT SUCKS but its a problem with almost every aftermarket frame... do u have in the other 2 motor mounts and the swing arm pivot???


gregz there is only one way everything can go... bottoms u need the bolt out front and the top a-arms can ony go on one way to match up with the spindels;)

[Tommy 17]

boogie shock compressed it 13.25 still:confused:

[Tommy 17]

heres a email i just recieved from john...

Hello again Tommy:

I was reading through the post and thinking quite a bit about the information provided by a person called "boogiechillie". He is quite knowledgeable about a-arms, and his post got very technical, and I think demonstrates all the variables that go into A-arms. I think it might be a good idea to offer a little more info beyond the pure numbers to tell you what those number mean, and why things happen the way they do.

As you know, on all quads the a-arms are attached at the frame, and at the steering knuckle. In an earlier post you had noticed the tires going through a "lean-in motion" as they progressed through the travel. This is because the a-arms are of different length, but on the EX this is even more pronounced since the Steering Axis Inclination (the relation ship of the upper and lower joint at the pivot) is 4 degrees more than on most performance quads. Honda apparently wanted the EX to be a little more forgiving and slower turning, so they set the upper ball joint pivot inward more than any other model. After all, it wasn't designed to be a racer, but more of a trail quad, and they wanted it to be forgiving. The result is it also makes the upper a-arm even shorter. As you know, since the a-arms are attached at the frame and again the spacing on the upper is significantly different than the lower, they swing on different arcs. This means that as the arms go through the stroke, when they go above and below the centerline, the a-arms effectively get shorter or longer, and this pulls the wheel inward or outward. I know you have noticed this, but here is how it really comes into play on the longer shocks.

The long shocks favored by many riders today are a little misleading in some ways... In most cases they can offer a little more wheel travel, but almost all of that travel is really in the downward stroke, or droop to full extension. They can't really go up since your frame would bottom out, so they make it up the only place they can, which is down. Unfortunately, this is the worst possible position from the standpoint of the upper a-arms. They are already starting to be too short and drawing the upper portion of the steering knuckle in, (and as a result the tire) and more droop geometrically compounds the problem, as you noticed. TO make matters worse, the shorter the a-arm, the worse the problem becomes. On short a-arms the motion really gets exaggerated and is much more noticeable. A big part of this is the steering knuckle itself. Ideally the ball joint would be at the center of the wheel. Unfortunately, because they have to put a nut on the ball joint, it has to be offset from the center of the wheel. This a big reason why the Leager T-Pin setup works so great.. It gets the longest possible a-arm, on the longest possible arc, and gets the actual pivot to the center of the tire. That really reduces the lean-in-and-out effect you see so much on short arms and short steering knuckles like the EX. In your case, now it is possible to see how you got contact between the inside edge of the forging and the tube at full extension (or full droop) with the relatively short +1 a-arms and a long shock. The upper a-arm was drawing the upper steering knuckle inward at a much faster rate than the lower would allow.

Boogiechillie also mentioned "motion ratio". That is a big factor to consider, and I think as he explained it ( shock stroke used vs.: wheel motion) was very good. From your numbers I believe you calculated a motion ratio of appx 1.81 : 1. That is probably correct at 1 point on the stroke, but be aware that as the wheel travels up and down that ratio changes a little as well. It's actually on a curved scale. Most shock guys calculate it from an average, and although it's not really the complete story, it's about the best they can do. Here's an interesting note for you on long shocks and travel.... Did you know that on the YFZ 450 it is actually possible to use the stock shock, and stock mounting position, and actually get more wheel travel than some of the "long shock" setups? This is all due to the motion/leverage ratio numbers. Here's why... In almost every case and on most quads, to get the extremely long shocks to fit, the builder must slide the mount toward the outside of the wheel. This really changes the ratios, and in fact even though you have an extremely long shock with lots of stroke, because the shock is mounted close to the wheel, as the wheel moves, the shock shaft only travels a short distance. That is why I prefer to stay closer to the 2:1 ration in most cases.

There is also 1 other big factor in a-arms that makes them do the things they do... The steering tie rods. Ideally all the a-arms and tie rods would be parallel and would travel at the same rate through the stroke. Since they are also mounted in a different location and are a different length than the arms, the tie rods themselves also go through their own motion, and where they are mounted on the stem and on the steering knuckle also comes into play. In fact, since they are really a small ball joint setup, they have a limited range of motion before they hit their maximum "angle of misalignment". That is when the stud contacts the sides of the housing, and stops travel. With some of the shocks today it is possible to exceed those travel numbers. On the stems we make I actually put a little more crown into the stem to accommodate a little more range of motion. There is nothing anyone can do at the steering knuckle however. Whatever anyone does, it still is going to swing through it's motion on a different path than the a-arms, and will cause the wheel to travel in a toe-in / toe-out condition and effect the dreaded bump steer. Once again, the combination of a shorter arm and longer shock makes this motion more exaggerated. It's a tough relationship to work with. Any time you have a shorter arc from the a-arms, tie rods, etc, those motions are more pronounced. That is why the longer a-arm setups don't see this nearly as much. As you may have guessed, there is really no ideal and perfect setup. It's all a geometric relationship between all the numbers, and I'm sure every builder does the best they can, and hopefully they improve over time as most products do. If it was possible to make an ideal setup, everyone would have it, and there would be no reason for it ever to change, and for the factories to ever release a new quad, truck or any other product.

Hope that helps explain things a little bit better for you Tommy. In fact, you may want to post this since other guys may find it informative as well.

Talk to you later!

JA

[Ralph]

i didnt read through it all but is he just giving u reasons why ur setup sucks?

[bradley300]

i didnt take it as an excuse, more a warning that being a brand new set up, it will take time to get it right.

on a brand new set of a-arms and being the first to have them, i would have expect to send the shocks back a time or two b/c no one can be certain about thier set up until they have tried it different ways.

it also sounds like elka and aarens are both doing a great job at helping tommy, wich is good in my book

[Ralph]

Originally posted by bradley300
i didnt take it as an excuse, more a warning that being a brand new set up, it will take time to get it right.

on a brand new set of a-arms and being the first to have them, i would have expect to send the shocks back a time or two b/c no one can be certain about thier set up until they have tried it different ways.

it also sounds like elka and aarens are both doing a great job at helping tommy, wich is good in my book

seems more like an a-arm problem, and i didnt read one line about what tommy can do. since when do companys release something that isnt even good yet? tommys said its worse than his old setup. its not even up to par with anything else. and they were advertised as the best. :o

[Dave400ex]

Ralph you just have it in your head that it's got to be the a-arms. I'm not even sure why you care about Arens, you don't have any of his products. These a-arms have been used before, not totally new.

Tommy and I have talked a lot, and he said the a-arms are not binding, so that pretty much leaves it to be the shocks. If it is bottoming so easy on little jumps, the shocks must be way to soft. If the arms were binding, you would think they would be harder to move, and might also make it harder to bottom out. As Bradley said, it might take a few times of sending the shocks to Elka to get the front end dialed in perfect. This might take more riding time away, but in the end the setup will be awesome. It's not like the Roll setups and Houser setups were perfect the first time they came out. Also Tommy's old setup was just a standard tried and true setup that has been out for years. With the Elka's dialed in, I'm sure this will be much better.

[300exOH]

It sounds like Arens and Elka are trying to offer help which is good. I have a custom setup on my 300ex with Burgard +2's and a shockmount bracket with Elkas(similar to Dave McCarols 300ex) and I had no trouble at all with them. I guess I got lucky. Anyways I'm sure if you keep working with Elka they will get them right. Good luck with it Tommy.

BTW the email you posted was very informative.

[boogiechile]

tommy, If your at 13.25 on the shock and 13.375 between mounts sitting on the board with no air in the tires that is close enough. it would actually go a little lower than the boards but not that much. You should be good there. That basically leaves only the springs to reduce bad bottoming. If it bottoms out really easy like you say you need stiffer springs brcause now you know your compressed length is not bad.

As for Johns reply:
I have posted on threads he was on before and have agreed with almost everything he has said. I have never done bussiness with him and know nothing about him personally. I will say that his responce to you on how the frt end works and the barriers and problems to overcome is all correct. So he is very knowledgeable about the subject. I have never used his components so have no esperience with fit or quality.

The problem of a short top arm that he talks about is very real. it does cause the bind you have at longer travel. However it can be compensated for by raising the ball joint height on the top arm in relation to the steering knuckle. I solve the problem by using heims on the top ball joint and making a long king pin. This makes the distance between the balljoints more than the distance between the a arm mounts and the top arm is not as deep in the arc at full droop so it does not pull the top af the knuckle in as much. You get less camber change and much less toe change. this can not be done with a standard type ball joint though. However, there is always a trade off, and that is that depending on the geometry you could get less camber gain when the wheel is traveling up than normal so you loose a little of the negative camber you need in the turns. Roll frames do this same thing by lowering the top a arm at the frame instead of raising it at the knuckle. Ever notice how a Roll frame has long extensions that hang down where the top a arms connect to the frame, that is how they do it. But a Roll frame has a single bottom rail making the bottom arms even longer in relation to the top ones making the problem worse.

Anyway you probably don't care about all this tech stuff and now you know your shocks match your setup as to length so you just need the valving and springs setup right. Just thought I would reinforce what John said so that people know he is not making an "excuse", what he said is true. Now the time to get parts and whether or not they fit is another story that I have no experience with and can not comment on.

Greenestreak Racing Projects (http://www.picturetrail.com/mojaveaddict)

[Tommy 17]

i'll be callin to get stiffer springs in a couple mins...


i just went threw hell at the doctors office gettin a physical for college... 6 needles in my left arm:eek2:

[Tommy 17]

well i just got off the phone with elka... they have to check a few things out and will be calling me back...




i'll say one thing they are VERY aweosme at costumer service... best i've EVER had... i will never buy anything but elka...

[DangerousDean]

Originally posted by Tommy 17
well i just got off the phone with elka... they have to check a few things out and will be calling me back...




i'll say one thing they are VERY aweosme at costumer service... best i've EVER had... i will never buy anything but elka...

thats canadians for you :)

[QuadTrix6]

were they valved for offsets?

[Tommy 17]

Originally posted by QuadTrix6
were they valved for offsets?


don't even start haven't u learned from the past

[Ralph]

dave didnt read ur whole post, what could be the problem is the wrong shocks for the geometry of the a-arms. and since arens sent out the geo its not realy elkas fault.

[Ralph]

oh and this set pretty much is the first set

[Rip_Tear]

Wow, I learned so much from this thread... Now I wonder if I will ever get to use it... I am hoping that I won't have to actually. But it definately should be put in the FaQ's or somewhere when its all done. Good luck with the set up Tommy! ;)

[Tommy 17]

heres a picture of the other kids spindels boogie... mine are very close to this if not more and still rub...



btw this is a std travel 16 inch front end thats why there is alot more clearance then mine... it doesn't have the extra down stroke of a long travel...

[Tommy 17]

heres a picture of the 16 inch shocks on it so people can see the std travel front end also... btw this is the 400 that arens put together himself the kid (jackie) told me...

[boogiechile]

Tommy, You can grind a good bit more off the spindle than what is done in that pic and still have little to no effect on the strength. I have ground mine more than that on the top and bottom. Go to my link at the bottom and go in the "new super Mojave project" album and look at the 4th and 5th to the last pics in it. It is not real close up but look at the top of the spindle and you can see how much I have cut it down. You can cut it this much with no problems on the bottom. I did all this before I made the longer king pins or I would not have needed to grind it as much. I was using Janssen Racing king pins but when I needed longer ones Roll was the only one who had long ones. I was not sure they were as long as what I wanted and they charge like 85 bucks apiece for them so I just had a local machine shop make me some to my specs. They are not in any of the pics but will be soon.

Also notice how my spindles are ground all the way around the sides. The one in the pic you showed is only ground in the middle. You need to grind them all the way around so that your wheels can turn (steer) back and forth when you are in the air or wheelying without binding on the arm.

Greenestreak Racing Projects (http://picturetrail.com/mojaveaddict)

[boogiechile]

Tommy, another fix for your problem would be a longer king pin in that spherical bearing on the bottom arm. You do not want to go too long on it because it has much more stress on it than the top one so most times the top is lengthend. But if your king pin on the bottom was just a little longer it would give extra clearance on that arm. It would also have the same effect at stopping the spindle from leaning in at the top as making the top space greater with a long pin there. You could probably add a 1/4 inch in the bottom without a strength problem and you may have the geometry problem fixed. Maybe John would make a 1/4 inch longer pin for you under the circumstances you have to fix the problem. If not, You could have a local machine shop make a couple. just take them one and tell the to make it just the same except to make the shaft part between the taper and the bearing section a 1/4 inch longer. Tell them what it is for and that it is under stress so use a good steel to make it.

Doing this would also help with the problem you have of having to compress the shock some to get it in. It would give you about an 1/8 inch more length in there to fit the shock in.

It will make your frame slightly lower when the shocks bottom out but not enough to matter.

all these problems have nothing to do with your bottoming but they are problems you are having. you will eventually have to get stiffer springs for the bottoming.

[Guy400]

Originally posted by Tommy 17
btw this is the 400 that arens put together himself the kid (jackie) told me... Tommy, Jackie is a woman--she bought my 400EX :eek: :D

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by Guy400
Tommy, Jackie is a woman



I don't think he knows the difference...:blah:

[Tommy 17]

k boogie... i'll grind it down some more then...



guy kid is plural for guy or girl:p even thou shes probably not a kid...


jerry stfu or i'm gonna go to jail for a hate crime:( :D :macho

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by Tommy 17


jerry stfu or i'm gonna go to jail for a hate crime:( :D :macho

http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/atvmxrider/bolt.gif

[Tommy 17]

well after countless hours of beating my head off the wall... many phone calls to elka heres where i stand...


elka told me to set my ride heights at 8.5 front and 8.25 rear... tried it and it was still the same... so i had one last idea that i thought COULD possibly be the problem...


on the frame mounts of the lower a-arms i really had to force the bottom a-arms into the frame... theres rubber seals that are SUPER thick and i got a razor out and shaved a lil bit off till the slid right into the frame... i took it for a ride and it rode 100XXXX better then b4 that... it still needs a lil bit of dial in but i think the problem is goin to finally be fixed... why the rubber would do that i have no clue but i think it wasn't lettin the shocks rebound...

in this pic i circled the area i shaved the rubber from...


now for the next problem... i saw some oil on the shaft of my rear shock:(

[300exOH]

Good to hear you're getting it figured out. Mine were tight at the mounts too but they loosened up after a little riding.

How about some pics of the finished product:devil:

[Ralph]

Originally posted by Tommy 17
well after countless hours of beating my head off the wall... many phone calls to elka heres where i stand...


elka told me to set my ride heights at 8.5 front and 8.25 rear... tried it and it was still the same... so i had one last idea that i thought COULD possibly be the problem...


on the frame mounts of the lower a-arms i really had to force the bottom a-arms into the frame... theres rubber seals that are SUPER thick and i got a razor out and shaved a lil bit off till the slid right into the frame... i took it for a ride and it rode 100XXXX better then b4 that... it still needs a lil bit of dial in but i think the problem is goin to finally be fixed... why the rubber would do that i have no clue but i think it wasn't lettin the shocks rebound...

in this pic i circled the area i shaved the rubber from...


now for the next problem... i saw some oil on the shaft of my rear shock:(

its fresh isnt it? could be from assembely

[Tommy 17]

Originally posted by 300exOH

How about some pics of the finished product:devil:


i'm goin to save the good finished product pics for when i go down to pappys and get my axle and everything on... plus his camera is 100X better then mine...

[300exOH]

Cool. I'll keep an eye out for 'em.

[Jackie]

Originally posted by Guy400
Tommy, Jackie is a woman--she bought my 400EX :eek: :D

Thanks Guy.
Didnt bother me.
I actualy felt younger for a moment.
also Guy how about the weekend of july 4th for you to head our way and ride Silver Lake. You can ride the Yellow 400ex and your wife ride the 250ex. The trail riders need to experence the dunes at least once.

Tommy 17, glad to hear things are working now.:D :)

[boogiechile]

Good news Tommy, glad to here its better. If that bushing was really tight it could cause a slower rebound, and you could get a kind of packing going on that would bottom it out. However if it bottoms easy on the first hit I would think the bushing had nothing to do with that, it would probably add resistance and help out on the first hit. But the next ones could be trouble.

[Guy400]

Originally posted by Jackie
Thanks Guy.
Didnt bother me.
I actualy felt younger for a moment.
also Guy how about the weekend of july 4th for you to head our way and ride Silver Lake. You can ride the Yellow 400ex and your wife ride the 250ex. The trail riders need to experence the dunes at least once.

Tommy 17, glad to hear things are working now.:D :) What are we going to do with my one month old daughter :eek2:

Thanks for the invite, though. I was just up in Grand Rapids, Holland, Grandville and Charlotte a couple weeks ago for work. I didn't realize I was so close to Silver Lake!

[Jackie]

CONGRATS!!!!!
We could have them hold up at my house, (lots of ammenites) or teach her young. ride baby ride LOL My folks have a motor home we could take everyone to the dunes.
I cant belive you were up this way and didnt pm me. NEXT time, my son would realy like to meet you and take you out riding.
babys are so cool but they do grow up to be riders.....:D
If I remember correctly wifes name is Heather? Whats babys? guy400extra?

[cdalejef]

Tommy, another thing to be careful of is overtightening the arm bolts at the frame pivot. If the metal sleeves that are inside the bushings are even just a tad short, this will cause them to be tight when you crank down on the nut.

[Tommy 17]

Originally posted by Jeff@QuadShop
Tommy, another thing to be careful of is overtightening the arm bolts at the frame pivot. If the metal sleeves that are inside the bushings are even just a tad short, this will cause them to be tight when you crank down on the nut.


jeff i torque everything to the manual...

[Guy400]

Originally posted by Tommy 17
jeff i torque everything to the manual... Do you follow the manual when you polish your knob :huh


















:devil:

[Tommy 17]

you askin for it guy

[Lethalhonda2]

on the frame mounts of the lower a-arms i really had to force the bottom a-arms into the frame... theres rubber seals that are SUPER thick and i got a razor out and shaved a lil bit off till the slid right into the frame...
I did the same with mine plus I took a little more of that aluminum sleeve so it wouldnt bind on the frame when the A-arms where tight. Glad to see your getting things worked out:D I'm still waiting on shocks and a few other things with John