Was race gas to blame?

[MIA450R]

Guys-
I tried running some 100 Octane race gas in my R this weekend. I put MAYBE 1/3 of a tankful of it in, mixed with 2/3 premium gas (93 octane). My R is stock aside from the HRC kit.

After riding for maybe 15 minutes, and driving the quads to another pit (engine completely cold), it took me almost 50 kicks to get my R started! Once running, it ran fine, although there seemed to be a slight bog with the race gas. Anyways, with the engine hot, the quad fired up with one kick. Then, we drove home. At home (engine cold again), I could NOT start the quad. Me and my friend kicked it like 75 times, no start. I tried with choke (starter enrichment) and with hot start (leans)....no go, not even close. With the tank now less than half full, I topped off the tank with 93 octane, to dilute the race gas. I noticed the exhaust pipe reaked of the race gas...which is green and smells by the way.

I took the plug out, and it was wet, and maybe a little dark, but not black. I dried the plug off, and cleaned the contacts a little with a piece of paper, and used compressed air to 'dry out' the combustion chamber. Put the plug back in, and it started after about 10 kicks. Let it idle, ran it for a while, shut it off and it started right back up.

Today, it started after 2 kicks, and the exhaust no longer reeks of that smell.

Was the race gas causing me to be too rich? Did it foul the plug, making cold starts extremely difficult? Is cleaning the plug good enough, or should I replace it? Is the 10.5:1 compression too low for this mix of race gas?

Just wondering why the race gas did this. Tx.

[kazpr]

Glad I did not buy some last time @ the dunes then!! Just in case.

[outacontrol31]

ive ran race gas in mine and it ran fine but the gas is sort of old:confused:

[TRX45OR]

I RAN 110 THE BLUE STUFF ALL WEEKEND RUNS EVEN BETTER LESS PINING AT LOW SPEEDS AND EVEN FASTER 3 BIKE S IN THE SAME DRAG BY THE WAY IM ALL STOCK THE ONLY TIME MINE HAS TROUBLE STARTING IS WHEN I WEELIE TOO FAR AND DROP IT BACK IT SEEMS TO FLOOD TOOK 20 TO 30 KICKS HAS HAPPENED A COUPLE OF TIMES. I HAVE ONE ? I STILL HAVE NEVER HERD MY FAN COME ON WHATS THE DEAL?

[thomez]

75 kicks

10 kicks

20 kicks


Sounds like I would be ready for an E start.

[Blown 331]

Originally posted by thomez
75 kicks

10 kicks

20 kicks


Sounds like I would be ready for an E start.


Yes because if you have a starter the bike would fire right up with the plug fouled out. Duh.

[thomez]

Either way, my leg wouldn't ache.

[roughrider01]

The higher the octane the more your engine with think its running rich. Did you try playing around with your fuel screw to see if that helped at the time?

[Blown 331]

Originally posted by roughrider01
The higher the octane the more your engine with think its running rich. Did you try playing around with your fuel screw to see if that helped at the time?

Explain this, it doesn't make sense to me.

[thomez]

Actually you need a lot bigger jets to run things like alchy or methanol so ... I would think it is quite the opposite.

[Shawn H]

I mixed VP RED with 92 octane and never have a problem with starting.

[SSRedRider]

I use 113 klotz in mine and I don't have a problem. Maybe you got ahold of some bad gas.

[roughrider01]

This is just what ive heard, ive read a post on it before. If i can find it ill write down the link. I also remember the guy stating that you should always tune your engine to the fuel your running.

Hearing that he had a slight bog and problems starting seems like a rich condition to me.

Ive used methanol on my DS i used to have and call tell you my tank would be empty twice as fast as normal gas. I cant tell you why it would be opposite for race gas, maybe someone can, maybe it has something to do with timing, not sure.

[joe1l]

First off if your plug was real wet and was taking many many kicks to get your bike going, it sounds like you were running RICH. Running higher octane in a motor that is only designed for pump gas will not give the motor more power, it will do the opposite actually!!! It may feel like its running cleaner but in reality you make your most power right before detonation, and you not going to be close to detonation if you are running a much higher octane fuel than you need. All signs show that you are running too rich, hence the difficulty starting. I ran VP ultimate 4 (93 octane) and actually my bike fired up faster than it usually does running the sunuco pump supreme 94octane. I would drain your tank and replace your gas with super and see if it fixes your problem. It is unusuall that this occured, it is quite possible the gas was bad and this is causing a problem. What jetting are you running? And did you try replacing your plug?
Joe

thomez
Funny thing happened when I went riding a few weeks ago, my buddy had a C-dale and his battery went bad!!!! We almost had to turn around and go home 2 hours because of a freakin battery!!! Lucky for us he happened to have a second batery!!!When you have kickstart....there is never an issue:D

[thomez]

Originally posted by joe1l

thomez
Funny thing happened when I went riding a few weeks ago, my buddy had a C-dale and his battery went bad!!!! We almost had to turn around and go home 2 hours because of a freakin battery!!! Lucky for us he happened to have a second batery!!!When you have kickstart....there is never an issue:D

Batteries are maintenence items :p

You can always pushstart :devil:

[MIA450R]

Originally posted by joe1l
First off if your plug was real wet and was taking many many kicks to get your bike going, it sounds like you were running RICH. Running higher octane in a motor that is only designed for pump gas will not give the motor more power, it will do the opposite actually!!! It may feel like its running cleaner but in reality you make your most power right before detonation, and you not going to be close to detonation if you are running a much higher octane fuel than you need. All signs show that you are running too rich, hence the difficulty starting. I ran VP ultimate 4 (93 octane) and actually my bike fired up faster than it usually does running the sunuco pump supreme 94octane. I would drain your tank and replace your gas with super and see if it fixes your problem. It is unusuall that this occured, it is quite possible the gas was bad and this is causing a problem. What jetting are you running? And did you try replacing your plug?
Joe



Thanks Joe-
Your words confirm my thoughts on this. I topped off the tank with 93octane, so the 100 octane is all but diluted out now. I dried the plug and combustion chamber, and cleaned the plug off, and now it starts 1st or 2nd kick as it always did...and like i said, the exhaust doesnt reek of the race gas smell anymore. i am running HRC kit needle and jet (185).

[joe1l]

Good to see your bike is running good again. If you want to run race fuel, try the Ultimate 4 by VP that I mentioned ;)


Batteries are maintenence items
Yeah KICKSTARTERS are not!!!

At first I couldn't understand why people complained about the kickstart, but then I let my girlfriend try my bike out, and she complained that she liked electric start better.....and then it all made sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek2:

[86atc250r]

Actually, Thomez - on a Cannondale you can not push start if your batter is dead - been there, tried that.

If your battery is low -- yes -- dead, no.

Bottom line is the kick is maintenance free and is more reliable if the machine is in tune. If the machine is not in tune, it may or may not start even with an e-starter --- if it's a C-dale, it will foul the plug and you have to disassemble half the quad to get it out, then hope you have an extra or a bead blaster because you won't be finding that plug at the local parts store.

Is the only reason you hang out here is to gloat if someone mentions a starting issue? Must be a pretty lame way to live....

Personally, if the 450R had an option of an e-start or kick start, I'd still have the kick start quad.

Heck, if my life depended on my quad starting, I certainly would rather be on a 450R than a Cannondale - with the CD, it was always a crap shoot if the quad sat for more than a day (and sometimes even if you'd just killed it for a few minutes) --- not to mention the fact that if you were running the headlights and low enough speeds to run the cooling fan you might have a little surprise the next time you shut it off and tried to start it... (I could go on and on with the issues, but that's a whole 'nother thread...)

Bottom line: Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones --- get it?


Anyhow.... Now that that rant is over.

Higher octane has nothing to do with jetting. It doesn't necessarily require more rich or more lean jetting - the important thing is specific gravity, this dictates jetting.

Higher specific gravity means the fuel is more dense and requires leaner jetting.

Methanol has a lower specific gravity which is why you must literally double your jet size to get it right.

[kgbg]

Joe, thats the best post I have read yet.
MIA, I am thinking, after reading about this, and doing a little research, I think you got bad gas....
Thomez, whats the matter? All the cannondaleriders.com boys sold their stuff, so you have to come over here and interject your moronic posts, trying desperatly to make yourself feel better that you have a out of production, plumbers nightmare, a WAY too heavy for aluminum framed, UGLY, failed business venture, Koreandinlidale?
;)
I am kidding, of course. But, still dont come at me with Cannondale this or that, I had one, a moto, I sold as soon as I could.

[SSRedRider]

At the last two GNCC races, I have had some friends that couldn't finish the race because of a dead battery. I won't get into what kind of quad they had to keep the ******ing down. I have finished all of the races I started with my 450r, no matter how many times I killed it.

Thinking about getting some T shirts made that says "Real men kick it". Ha Ha Ha Ha
lmao

[thomez]

You can have fun attacking the Cdale, if it bothered me I would have already sold it. LOL

I simply say I would rather have a button than try to kick something 70 times, and people get offended, attack me and what I ride, and overall make themselves look like the people that have a problem. I sure don't, if you didn't catch that from the smilies and joking. But whatever, have your fun!

The fact is, people sure get angry when Yamaha gets something right - E-start, option to make it kicker if you want, keep them both so you have kicker as a backup. Ahh.... what a great idea. I would love to have that setup - the best of both worlds.


PS: Sounds like you couldn't tune that Cannondale to me - mine has never failed to start, even after sitting over a month at a time, in the sub-zero weather. I know you understand the EFI better than I do, but if you would let it continue to have that much trouble, something sure wasn't right. Get your D&M out. Some people have hundreds of hours on their quads and have never fouled a plug - they can and do work great when properly maintained.

[honda250xrider]

race gas actually burns slower than regular pump gas, So with the race gas burning slower your jetting will also change, I think a size down on the main jet would of been the way to go while running the race gas.

[trick450r]

Originally posted by thomez
Either way, my leg wouldn't ache.

Dumb ****!!

[Scottie Mac]

All the new generation 4 strokes kick start easy...................... when they are new. The problem (with CRFs, YZ450Fs, etc) is that as you put time on the motors they become harder and harder to start. With valve clearences flexing, rings wearing, etc the motor simply is not as good as it was when it was new. And, it shouldn't. They become more of a pain in the arse to start, especially when hot.

Even still, if you take care of your motor and keep the engine maintenance up, it will be relatively reliable.

The biggest problem I have with the kick start is this. I ride MX, and only MX. When you stall a kick start only quad in a race, you are screwed. Now, it is not the quad's fault you stalled it, but still, if you do in a MX race by the time you get the kicker out, and kick it over, you have lost positions. Even worse if your clutch is slightly worne and you have to find neutral. Ever be in a race and stall and try to find neutral with you heart racing a mile a minute and with arm pump? Not fun.

I wouldn't let the kicker keep me from buying a TRX, but I sure would be a lot happier if it came with e start and a kicker back up. To me, that is the logical choice. Yamaha was close, but should have put the kicker on from the factory.

Scott

[joe1l]

All the new generation 4 strokes kick start easy...................... when they are new. The problem (with CRFs, YZ450Fs, etc) is that as you put time on the motors they become harder and harder to start. With valve clearences flexing, rings wearing, etc the motor simply is not as good as it was when it was new. And, it shouldn't. They become more of a pain in the arse to start, especially when hot.

Even still, if you take care of your motor and keep the engine maintenance up, it will be relatively reliable.

The biggest problem I have with the kick start is this. I ride MX, and only MX. When you stall a kick start only quad in a race, you are screwed. Now, it is not the quad's fault you stalled it, but still, if you do in a MX race by the time you get the kicker out, and kick it over, you have lost positions. Even worse if your clutch is slightly worne and you have to find neutral. Ever be in a race and stall and try to find neutral with you heart racing a mile a minute and with arm pump? Not fun.

I wouldn't let the kicker keep me from buying a TRX, but I sure would be a lot happier if it came with e start and a kicker back up. To me, that is the logical choice. Yamaha was close, but should have put the kicker on from the factory.

Scott

You Yami guys will do anything to put down the Honda!!! My 250r is over 16 years old!!! It has been sitting all winter long, I put the choke on, a gave it 1 solid kick and it started!!! What makes the 450r soo easy to start is the compression release. My buddies 350x is 16years old and still starts with one or 2 kicks cold. If you maintain your bike its going to start! I haven't had a problem yet starting this bike! The freakin kickstart option on the YFZ is over $400!! I'm sure for that price someone will make an estart option in the future for my girlfriends who have problems starting the 450R. :macho

[thomez]

Have you ever rebuilt the top end on the R?

[300racer]

when my quad is cold it would take alot of kicks to get it started and when it started I had to keep the choke on until it was warm and it would ride fine the rest of the day but then a buddy of mine told me to try pumping the throtle two times and kick it and it work with the choke off and I have done that every since and haven't had a prob.

[RideRedEX]

i run ultimate 4 with 93octane at 50-50 and havent had a problem. The only times i had problems with it starting is when i flooded it. You just open up the throttle all the way and give it a few kicks to clean it out and it fires right up.

[joe1l]

Have you ever rebuilt the top end on the R?
Which R?
On the 250R, the answer is yes of course I have! You see, I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty or kick a quad over!!

:D

[TCracin440ex]

i know i had a 1992 250x and boy that mofo was a pain in the arse to kick over simply because it was old, an the compression release cable was worn out and wouldnt open the valves correctly.....the 450r is proally the best 4 stroke kicker set up ive ever seen....i dont know if this is true or not....so dont flame...but ive been told by many people not to put the kicker on the yfz 450 because its a pain in the *** to kick because it dont have an auto compression release...and that is why many of the yz450fs are harder to kick also...i dont know if its true...

[Blown 331]

I have a 1984 XR500R and a 1976 Yamaha TT500. They both start within 2 kicks when cold. To my knowledge neither one has been rebuilt. A 28 year old bike starts like it's new, I don't think age has anything to do with ease of starting. As long as the bike is in good tune and in good mechaically condition it will fire right up regardless of age.

[thomez]

Originally posted by TCracin440ex
i know i had a 1992 250x and boy that mofo was a pain in the arse to kick over simply because it was old, an the compression release cable was worn out and wouldnt open the valves correctly.....the 450r is proally the best 4 stroke kicker set up ive ever seen....i dont know if this is true or not....so dont flame...but ive been told by many people not to put the kicker on the yfz 450 because its a pain in the *** to kick because it dont have an auto compression release...and that is why many of the yz450fs are harder to kick also...i dont know if its true...

A lot of guys are running the YFZ kicker only, no decompression mechanism, and I haven't heard of a complaint yet.

[joe1l]

A lot of guys are running the YFZ kicker only, no decompression mechanism, and I haven't heard of a complaint yet.
I was under the impression the YFZ had a decompression mechanism...if it didn't I wouldn't try kicking it. No decompression device on the Yami and trying to kickstart it, is a bit too intense for anyone's leg, on bad kick and booom, it will kick you back to next week!!! Anyhow I think the YFZ comes with an autodecompression like the TRX...if not then man someone is going to get HURT!!!
Joe

[86atc250r]

Well, since *you* haven't heard any complaints then apparently there aren't any...

Actually, I spent a little time talking to a YFZ owner that has the kickstart setup a while back - he didn't have good things to say about it. Don't remember what all he said, but I do remember he didn't like it. He also asked me several questions about the 450R's starting and was anxious to try one out.

The thing with the 450R that people who haven't ridden them don't realize is how much effort Honda put into making this quad easy to kick and start quickly.

As far as aging and becoming harder to start --- it's all about maintenancing your equipment. If you let your engine get down on compression, develop valve sealing issues, and just generally roach it out, you probably deserve a machine that doesn't start easily.