Srarks Timing Key

[J.A.B. Racing]

Hey everybody whats up :D I just got one of those timing advance keys and I love it :) One thing I was wondering was has anyone heard of them backing off and vibrating the crank?
I sure can feel the difference :devil: the front tires come up so easy now:blah:

[04'400ex'er]

Just exactly how much easier do the fronts come up?

[outofsight]

Im thinking about getting a sparks key. Did it make the engine have more responce?

[UglyMotha™]

gives the motor a more crisper low-end throttle response

[J.A.B. Racing]

Ya the response is much better:D I dont think that it gave me horsepower but I dont bogg third gear on big dunes anymore:cool: and its easy to carry the front end from whoop to whoop:macho Im still wondering if anyone has had any problems with it loosening up:confused: Thanks:cool:

[UglyMotha™]

Originally posted by J.A.B. Racing
Ya the response is much better:D I dont think that it gave me horsepower but I dont bogg third gear on big dunes anymore:cool: and its easy to carry the front end from whoop to whoop:macho Im still wondering if anyone has had any problems with it loosening up:confused: Thanks:cool:



i ran mine hard for a full season and never had a single issue out of it if you properly torque the flywheel down it's no different than stock

[zlam27]

are there ANY negative effects of a timing key? some say it helped out quite a bit, others say it didnt really do a whole lot. all i want to know if if there are any downsides to it (theoretical problems)...

i.e. - reduced reliability, harder starting, that sort of thing.

zach

[440ex dragger]

It will overheat easier but it will take it a while to do it. I had one in my 440 and I drag raced and it never really got too hot.

[nikejoe]

Has anyone used one with a 416. I know spark's says not to because it will get too hot. Has anyone tried it. I am rebuilding my motor right now and have the key installed. I am trying to decide if I should leave it in or pull it out now that I will be at higher compression. Any thoughts or advice????:blah:

[UglyMotha™]

mines 416 11:1 compression single layer head gasket and it ran hot on 92 and i got a little bit of pre det. so i mix 70% race to 30% 92 and she runs cooler than a stock 4hundy

[J.A.B. Racing]

Ya my buddy and I used a impact gun so I think its ok:cool: I havent ran race yet but im going to next time I ride so we will see how it does:p

[brianC400X]

I have a 416ex with a stage 1 hotcam. So that is allo I can comment on from personal experience. Anyhow the sparks key was the best bang for buck performance add on ive ever had. My throttle response was GREATLY improved. With a stage 1 hotcam, 14 tooth front sprocket and this key I reccomend getting a rev box. It makes first and second gear very short in a drag race. My next upgrade is a rev box.

[Ryan]

Im confused..... Can anyone explain to me how the Sparks timing key causes the engine to run hotter or even overheat?

In that matter, im not very sure what it exactly does :confused: .

[quadmxracer]

Because it advances your engine timing and there for the engine works faster and heats up more quickly.

[UglyMotha™]

Originally posted by quadmxracer
Because it advances your engine timing and there for the engine works faster and heats up more quickly.



whaaa...... the engine works faster :confused:


don't want to burst your bubble or anything but the engine doesn't go any faster than it did with the stock key and it only advances the ignition timing not the actual engine timing thats all!!!

the engine runs hotter because the spark is advanced 6* which means the piston is closer to tdc when she fires :huh

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by Ryan
Im confused..... Can anyone explain to me how the Sparks timing key causes the engine to run hotter or even overheat?

In that matter, im not very sure what it exactly does :confused: .

The timing of the spark is an important part of the power characteristics of your engine. Think about HOW it happens. I'm sure you know the theory, the piston is moving upwards compressing the fuel/air mixture, the spark fires, the fuel explodes, and it pushes the piston downwards.

Now, think about slowly, in full detail. Nothing happens instananeously. Imagine that the spark occurs right at Top Dead Center. The spark fires, and the fuel around the spark plug begins to ignite. Meanwhile, the piston has already started to travel downwards. Because the fuel has not fully ignited, and the piston is traveling downwards, the pressure is actually DROPPING inside the cylinder, instead of increasing like it should. The higher the pressure, the better the fuel/air burns, but your cylinder pressure is actually dropping. So the flame front moves outwards away from the spark plug, igniting more fuel/air as it goes, but it's moving slowly because the pressure is dropping and the fuel/air doesn't ignite as easily. Eventually, enough fuel/air will ignite that cylinder pressures increase and push the piston downwards, but you don't get a really efficient burn and not much power out of it.

Now, imagine that you install the advance timing key, so the spark fires 6 degrees BEFORE top dead center. The flame front travels outwards much faster because your cylinder pressures aren't dropping. The piston can still travel upwards because you haven't ignited all that much fuel yet, so cylinder pressures aren't too high. But the important thing is that your flame is traveling much faster. The piston reaches top dead center and starts moving downwards, but cylinder pressures don't drop. Why? Because you are already igniting fuel, you already have a high flame speed, to the cylinder pressures continue to rise and already begin to push on the piston, creating output power right away, instead of 10 degrees after TDC. You get a clean, efficient burn, and much more power output.

This is the basic theory. In reality, the spark doesn't actually occur at top dead center, but you get the idea and how it works.

The spark timing is controlled by a little trigger on the outside of the flywheel. By physically advancing the flywheel with the Sparks Key, you advance the timing.

Now, because the fuel is igniting quicker, and more efficiently, it will also create more heat. If you are running high compression to begin with, you could have detonation issues.

[UglyMotha™]

http://ricoracing.netfirms.com/Smilies/pullin%20out%20hair.gif

[Ryan]

Thanks for clearing that up, wilkin250r.

Im curious though, Could you run a 400ex with a 10.8:1 piston and with the sparks advanced timing key without having to use race gas? I relize that the sparks key give the motor more compression.

And what about an oversized oil cooling tank? Do you think that would make a large difference if it was predentionating?

Thanks.

[UglyMotha™]

it's kind of a play on words the key doesn't actually give you anymore compression than what you already have it just fires when the fuel/air mixture is at a more compressed state


i really don't see the oil cooler actually helping with the key i'm sure it would help some but the problem with the key and a h.c. piston is you run into the face of the piston running too hot and you risk buring a hole in the top of your piston race fuel will actually cool the face of the piston as it burns i can't see the cooler oil helping much in this situation

[Ryan]

The reason I asked is because im interested in purchasing a 400ex soon and want to get as much power out of it as possible without having to run race gas.

[wilkin250r]

First off, you have to determine if you truly ARE running 10.8:1 compression. And like Ugly said, the key doesn't give you more compression, it just increases the likelyhood of detonation.

And there really are too many variables to tell you "yes" or "no" for your situation. The problem is that you are walking a really fine line. If your 10.8:1 really turns out to be 10:1, you would probably be ok. But will you still be ok if it is truly 10.8:1? It's a fine line. Maybe, maybe not...

[my03-400ex]

wilkin, that was an awesome explanation.... cleared up a bunch of questions for me, thanks

[Ryan]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
First off, you have to determine if you truly ARE running 10.8:1 compression. And like Ugly said, the key doesn't give you more compression, it just increases the likelyhood of detonation.

And there really are too many variables to tell you "yes" or "no" for your situation. The problem is that you are walking a really fine line. If your 10.8:1 really turns out to be 10:1, you would probably be ok. But will you still be ok if it is truly 10.8:1? It's a fine line. Maybe, maybe not...

Whats your opinion about the over sized oil tanks? Do they make a difference in any type of overheating issues?


Heres one from pingy.

[wilkin250r]

I think the oil tanks are misleading. I think they are a good idea, but not for the reasons they will advertise.

A larger oil cooler, or larger oil tank, will not really help keep your engine cool. They help keep the OIL cool, but the oil really only makes a difference of a few degrees in cooling your engine. They don't really help an overheating issue.

Now, even with that said, I still think a larger oil cooler or an oversized oil tank is still a good idea, because it does do exactly as they say. They help keep the oil cool.

Overheating causes several problems. Head warpage and melting the piston are the most obvious and dangerous, but burnt oil can also be problematic. If the oil gets too hot, it breaks down and looses it's lubricating properties. If that happens, it no longer protects like it's supposed to. If it doesn't lubricate and protect, it's like running without any oil at all, which will cause rapid damage throughout your motor. This is why I like oil coolers and oversized oil tanks. They don't really help keep your engine cool, but they DO eliminate one of the risk factors associated with overheating.

[nikejoe]

Hey ugly,
Did you ever try mixing 50/50 race gas to 92 octane? Just curious? Also when you say race gas are talking about the 110 octane, like turbo blue or what? Also one last stupid question, how will I be able to tell if I have predetination or if it is getting too hot? Will it ping or what? I don't want to get this thing back together and then tear something up just because I'm an idiot! Any advice?

[UglyMotha™]

oh yah, you can definantly run 50 50 and not worry bout predet. i got very little of it on just straight 92 but the motor ran hot the only reason i run a 70 30 mix is cause i'm in love with the smell of burning race fuel in fact if they bottled it and sold it as cologne i'd be the first in line it's just a little to diluted if i do 50 50 but if i do 70 30 i get the full effect plus it cuts cost just a little

as for fuel i run (76) 112 leaded i get from a local fuel depot but any race fuel of 110 or more will be fine

as for predet. it'll be very noticable it make a pinging sound right at the head of the motor

[brianC400X]

I run 50% 92 octane and 50% 110 octane in my scooter. My buddy built a motor with 10.8: JE forged pistion, stage 2 hotcam, OEM head gasket, and the sparks racing key. He ran 92 octane. It never ran right until his ring land broke. I built the same motor(I opted for the stage 1 and a cometic gasket that is half the compressed thickness of an OEM one) and havnt had any problems at all. I wind the piss out of my bike with no regards to heat or rpm's.(knock on wood) Its kind of expensive but it aint cheap to make a dinosaur like a 400ex run with the slew of newer, faster, technologically superior bikes anyhow. Also even 50% diluted race fuel has that OH so sweet smell.