New Dirt / Wheels Shootout [Archive]

Scottie Mac

04-28-2004, 12:56 PM

Ok, about the "Shootout"

If it is a MX set up shoot out, the YFZ is going to win because it is a better MX quad. Sorry, I know I am going to here a bunch of crap, but it is. It has more of a 250R geometry (the holy grail of quad racing) and is much easier to make into a full mx machine, motor wise and set up wise. I personally like both, would be happy with either, but if I had to "choose" one for MX ONLY, it would be the YFZ.

Look at the results from the Nationals. Now, on the circuit, it is all rider (at least that is my opinion) but each rider has a choice to pick which machine is best for the track. And basically, with the exception of the two guys being paid to ride something else, all of the top riders are on YFZs.

Even the trickest Honda in the world (Tim Farr's) is fighting an uphill battle to "get the bugs worked out" And before all of you come on here and use the excuse that it is a new quad, Kory Ellsi and John Natalie both won races on YFZs last year after less than a month of time to get it right. Why? Because it is an easier quad to make MX ready. With the Honda, you have to deal with the rear end (the biggest problem) linkage problem, but Walsh and Elka are working on fixes. As far as the light end, I really don't think that matters, anyoe who races is going to replace swingarms on BOTH quads. Tippiness? When fully decked out,I don't think the Honda is "tippy" it just doesn't handle and stay planted in the turns as well as the YFZ. Take the YFZ out of the equation, and they would say the Honda was the best handling thing in the world.

On the flip side, the YFZs may have some reliability issues. Now, I believe a lot of reliability comes down to proper maintenance, but there have been electrical issues with some. I for one like the kicker ont eh Honda, less electrics and MUCH easier to remove the motor if you wanted to work on it or powdercoat, etc.

Basically, don't let magazines, or forums (they are more biased than mags) decide for you what to ride. Go out, try both (or all three when/if the Suzuki comes out) and make your own decision. What is "perfect" for one person, may not be best for you. Lukester said he was 6'6, he would be an uncomfortable sum biatch on a YFZ, they simply aren't made for big fellas.

Opinions, we all got 'em, just like something else...................

Scott

thump4863

04-28-2004, 01:15 PM

Well said Scottie Mac...I get tired of hearing people fight over which is better...just pick the one that suits you the best and get it....I chose the honda but would have been just as happy with the yamaha. Both in my mind are great quads.

PEPwalshZ440

04-28-2004, 01:24 PM

the light front end is for something, its called manuvering.....think...would honda let the front end be terribly light for no reason? its not even that light.
Mike

Mr_400Ex

04-28-2004, 01:28 PM

slow down there scottie...

Last year ellis and natalie were facing a crowd of z400's. Even when tricked out they would have had a though time producing the power that the Yfz would. Your also talking about pro riders...they can win on almost anything you put them on.

Also the Yfz's front end is NOTHING like the 250r. It has almost 0 deree of rake and the shocks are much shorter than the 250r, 400ex, or the 450r. Just look at the shock length for most of the longtravel arms for the yfz...the shocks are around 18" compaired to 19+ for the honda's. The 450rs front end is the closes thing you'll get to a 250r in a quad that is currently being produced. The one aspect of suspension that the yfz does have in its favor is its rear link setup. Its funny though...everyones beloved 250r had the same setup. The aftermarket introduced the bike style linkages to quads. Don't be supprised to see honda fix this on a future 450r.

Both need mods for MX and with the same mods both will be competitive with each other.

Nate

sparky450AR

04-28-2004, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by RedRacer44
I wouldnt exactly say EVERYONE bought their 450Rs to ride the trails or dunes, I know I didnt....got the quad for MX! I mean, Honda built this bike for competition! They built a factory Honda team around this bike and Tim Farr, who helped with developing the quad. He rode a CRF quad which is what our engines are based off of. I know this is all re-furbished information everyone has ALREADY heard but if everyone is buying a 450R to ride trails or just the dunes....I just got to say.....What A Waste.

No offense intended toward all you trail riders who own 450Rs but I've seen a lot 450R owners in the past few months in my 2 trips to the dunes and 2 trips to the XC trails locally.....and they are mostly novice riders who arent taking full advantage of the quad. Just wanted the new HOT thing on the market to beat their buddies ya know? I know some of you know people like this!

Like I said before, no offense to all the trail riders because I know some BAD *** trail riders who kick *** in the woods but just dont want to race.

Just my 2 cents!

Ride Red!

Most of us do ride trails dunes, and occasional motocross with this bike. Its not a moto440. And its not a waste to ride it in the woods. The 250R is a dominant bike everywhere, and the 450R is already proving to be also, esspecially in gncc <<<two c's there.

hondakiller

04-28-2004, 05:37 PM

Not sure what GNCC your watching? But not one 450r has been on the podium yet. So where is this dominance you speek of?

The_Rooster

04-28-2004, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by hondakiller
Why does EVERY mag say the YFZ is better?

Think about it.

Scottie Mac

04-28-2004, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by Mr_400Ex
slow down there scottie...

Last year ellis and natalie were facing a crowd of z400's. Even when tricked out they would have had a though time producing the power that the Yfz would. Your also talking about pro riders...they can win on almost anything you put them on.

Also the Yfz's front end is NOTHING like the 250r. It has almost 0 deree of rake and the shocks are much shorter than the 250r, 400ex, or the 450r. Just look at the shock length for most of the longtravel arms for the yfz...the shocks are around 18" compaired to 19+ for the honda's. The 450rs front end is the closes thing you'll get to a 250r in a quad that is currently being produced. The one aspect of suspension that the yfz does have in its favor is its rear link setup. Its funny though...everyones beloved 250r had the same setup. The aftermarket introduced the bike style linkages to quads. Don't be supprised to see honda fix this on a future 450r.

Both need mods for MX and with the same mods both will be competitive with each other.

Nate

OK, last year Gust won the Production title on a Z. Ellis and NAtalie were able to be competative from the first time they raced against him. This year Gust is winning again, but the Honda has taken a long time to get up to speed. That alone is proof that the YFZ is a better "platform" as an mx racer. Farr has had his 450R for over 7 months now with more money and R&D behind him than anyone on a YFZ, yet he still hasn't been able to secure a win. Those are the facts.

As for the YFZ and 250R, yes the YFZ uses shorter shocks because it has a newer, more advanced frame design. Even with shorter shocks, they are getting the same amount of travel out of YFZs with aftermarket suspension. While the front end of the 450R may be similar to the old 250R design, it handles NOTHING LIKE the 250R.

And one more thing, that 250R dominance that some of you guys always like to refer to, I leave you with this...

THE 250R was the best racing platform the AFTERMARKET ever made. Go back and look at all the championships won over the years, you would be hard pressed to find ANY that used stock frames, cylinders, swingers, etc. ANd as soon as the modern four strokes came out, the 250R was a has been. This is not a knock on the 250R, I have owned two, one of which was a National ready Joe Byrd bike. It was awesome, but time (although it took over 10 years) finally caught up to it.

For anyone to say that one machine will dominate racing in either GNC or GNCC is just a stupid remark. The AFTERMARKET will even the playing feild and in the end, it ALWAYS comes down to the RACER!

Scott

Crayfish

04-28-2004, 05:56 PM

hondakiller, you do realize that there are more than one class of quads raced at a gncc don't you? Look at the race coverage section, more and more 450r's showing up even winning in a few of the classes. In the top class, you are correct, no 450r has been on the podium, but then again I believe there were only a couple raced by the pros, so it is only a matter of time before the field evens out with equal number on the yfz and trx and Mr. Ballance will still win most everything.

sparky450AR

04-28-2004, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by Scottie Mac
Ok, about the "Shootout"

If it is a MX set up shoot out, the YFZ is going to win because it is a better MX quad. Sorry, I know I am going to here a bunch of crap, but it is. It has more of a 250R geometry (the holy grail of quad racing) and is much easier to make into a full mx machine, motor wise and set up wise. I personally like both, would be happy with either, but if I had to "choose" one for MX ONLY, it would be the YFZ.

Look at the results from the Nationals. Now, on the circuit, it is all rider (at least that is my opinion) but each rider has a choice to pick which machine is best for the track. And basically, with the exception of the two guys being paid to ride something else, all of the top riders are on YFZs.

Even the trickest Honda in the world (Tim Farr's) is fighting an uphill battle to "get the bugs worked out" And before all of you come on here and use the excuse that it is a new quad, Kory Ellsi and John Natalie both won races on YFZs last year after less than a month of time to get it right. Why? Because it is an easier quad to make MX ready. With the Honda, you have to deal with the rear end (the biggest problem) linkage problem, but Walsh and Elka are working on fixes. As far as the light end, I really don't think that matters, anyoe who races is going to replace swingarms on BOTH quads. Tippiness? When fully decked out,I don't think the Honda is "tippy" it just doesn't handle and stay planted in the turns as well as the YFZ. Take the YFZ out of the equation, and they would say the Honda was the best handling thing in the world.

On the flip side, the YFZs may have some reliability issues. Now, I believe a lot of reliability comes down to proper maintenance, but there have been electrical issues with some. I for one like the kicker ont eh Honda, less electrics and MUCH easier to remove the motor if you wanted to work on it or powdercoat, etc.

Basically, don't let magazines, or forums (they are more biased than mags) decide for you what to ride. Go out, try both (or all three when/if the Suzuki comes out) and make your own decision. What is "perfect" for one person, may not be best for you. Lukester said he was 6'6, he would be an uncomfortable sum biatch on a YFZ, they simply aren't made for big fellas.

Opinions, we all got 'em, just like something else...................

Scott

dont you think you are contradicting yourself when you say its all rider, but the reason tim is loosing is because of his honda?

markeg192

04-28-2004, 06:20 PM

Dirtwheels is written to entertain High School kids. Just read a review of the Blaster and see what you think about that.

Scottie Mac

04-28-2004, 06:24 PM

At that level, the top guys Gust, Farr, Ellis, Jones, Natalie are very close in terms of rider ability. You guys seem to be having a hard time understanding what I am trying to say. Here, I will spell it out for you. Farr won two nationals last year, beating Gust, on a z400 based race quad. This year he is further back in the pack with the Honda.

The article in Dumbwheels was comparing a race ready TRX vs a race ready YFZ. I believe they picked the right one. but, like I said before, that is my opinion. If you disagree, more power to you.

Scott

Pappy

04-28-2004, 06:35 PM

whats so hard to understand. Yamaha hit one out of the park and they deserve the praise they are getting. The honda is right there with it but IMO for money spent the YFZ will win most magazine shoot-outs. You have to realize that the majority of the 8 million atv owners dont care about racing, but they do care about climbing on and having fun. And both the new quads deliver that plus some:macho

As far as the blaster, its a great beginner quad, thats what its designed for.

Too many people would like to carve up a quad and say piss on it. I prefer to have a chit eating grin on my face when I ride either the YFZ or TRX. There are very few riders that can give an honest opinion on anything, remeber that when someone spouts off:)

Scottie Mac

04-28-2004, 06:45 PM

Kind of hard to argue with Pappy, he actually has BOTH quads. But, we can all agree that he is the envy of everyone on this forum. Ba$tard!!!!!!!!!!!

J/K Pappy

Scott

protraxrptr17

04-28-2004, 07:13 PM

I was going to stay away from this topic, but I couldn't do it. I was and kinda still am, a die hard Yamaha guy, but now I just kinda see the good in all of 'em. First of all, as far as the Nationals go, if it depended on the bike as much as some people are saying, Gust would be gettin' his *** handed to him. Second, I hope nobody puts much credibility on DW shootouts. The only reason I buy it is because there is nothing else remotely about quads available to read while I sit on the can. The new issue I got yesterday, I read it front to back before I was done with my business. There's nothing in it but ads and letters from 8 year olds. I do agree the YFZ is awesome. The 450R is awesome too. I have ridden both and I don't see a huge advantage either way. I like my Raptor better than both. That is because I have spent every spare dime I can beg, borrow, and steal to make it fit my style. I know shootouts are biased. I own the most downtrodden quad in the history of the world, but I love it. I know what the 450R is going through. I was bashing it myself awhile back. I guess because I needed something to take out my frustration of getting bashed for so long. DW does suck up to the factories, but they suck up to the aftermarket more. They will pick the quad with the most available hop-ups, bolt-ons, and things like that. Look at your back issues. Two years ago the Z400 was their baby. Before that the Raptor got some attention. Before that the 400EX was all that they wrote about. They never said much about Cannondale because it was not popular with the aftermarket. They love the 250R because it sells parts and parts sell ads. Personally I always pick the underdog so I'm switching sides on this one. I guess I'm a little biased because I met a fella at my local track who had a 450R set up sorta like my Raptor and I fell in love with it. If I get something new I'll probably get a 450R just to be different. That's why I've been hangin' out over here lately. If it's allright with ya'll. I'll get flamed on, I'm used to it.

markeg192

04-28-2004, 07:22 PM

Protrx, Thanks for the fresh opinions.the "aftermarket" thing makes alot of sense.

brif

04-28-2004, 07:29 PM

I agree, some quads just don't get any respect from dirt wheels( predator, v-force, ds650, the cannondales). Right now it's real hard to go too wrong with anything. I think if most of us could spend as much time on our quads as we do reading mags and playing on the internet we would be better off and happier.

sparky450AR

04-28-2004, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by Scottie Mac
At that level, the top guys Gust, Farr, Ellis, Jones, Natalie are very close in terms of rider ability. You guys seem to be having a hard time understanding what I am trying to say. Here, I will spell it out for you. Farr won two nationals last year, beating Gust, on a z400 based race quad. This year he is further back in the pack with the Honda.

The article in Dumbwheels was comparing a race ready TRX vs a race ready YFZ. I believe they picked the right one. but, like I said before, that is my opinion. If you disagree, more power to you.

Scott

Yeah, i knew what you were saying all along. After i read your post, i got real pissed off. Because im used to honda always being the top dog no matter what its doing. So i was outside mowing the grass thinking about your post, and off course i thought of some smartass thing to say:cool: . But we are all right here, a lot is opinion, yamaha and honda both made awesome quads. I still think farr is gonna start kickin ***, thats his nature. But it wont be the quad, and gust Z isnt whats making him win either.

To tell you the truth the only reason i bought a honda was yes, some loyalty, but mostly i like hondas power delivery a lot more than yamahas. Thats it, thats the two reasons. And thats an opinion. see you guys later!

r450rr

04-28-2004, 10:21 PM

i read the dirtwheels ad today at work, and they could have sumed the whole thing up with,"the YAMAHA YFZ is the greatest thing ever invented and thought up, and nothing now or ever will come close to this great machine. there is no flawes about it except for vibration,, "

:blah:

its like politics, money talks

Woody_YFZ

04-28-2004, 10:47 PM

I just have to state an observation here. Just out of curiosity, I counted the ads in my June Dirt Wheels from each manufacturer. Honda had one for just Honda and two in conjunction with (had their name on it too) Ohtsu and Moose. Yamaha had zero ads (yes, you read that correctly, 0 ads.). There are tons of pics of Yamis, but they are all advertisements for other products. Suzuki, Bombardier and Polaris also all had one ad a piece, so I don't buy the Yamaha paid them off story.
Now my opinion. I own both the Yamaha and the Honda and I ride mostly mx and I agree with most everything dirtwheels has stated. My Honda sits while I ride my Yami because I like the way it handles better, I just wish I could put the money into both of them like they did on the shootout. Like they stated at the end of their shootout "Honda owners will not be disappointed with their purchase". I agree with that statement fully.

Woody_YFZ

04-28-2004, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by protraxrptr17
I was going to stay away from this topic, but I couldn't do it. I was and kinda still am, a die hard Yamaha guy, but now I just kinda see the good in all of 'em. First of all, as far as the Nationals go, if it depended on the bike as much as some people are saying, Gust would be gettin' his *** handed to him. Second, I hope nobody puts much credibility on DW shootouts. The only reason I buy it is because there is nothing else remotely about quads available to read while I sit on the can. The new issue I got yesterday, I read it front to back before I was done with my business. There's nothing in it but ads and letters from 8 year olds. I do agree the YFZ is awesome. The 450R is awesome too. I have ridden both and I don't see a huge advantage either way. I like my Raptor better than both. That is because I have spent every spare dime I can beg, borrow, and steal to make it fit my style. I know shootouts are biased. I own the most downtrodden quad in the history of the world, but I love it. I know what the 450R is going through. I was bashing it myself awhile back. I guess because I needed something to take out my frustration of getting bashed for so long. DW does suck up to the factories, but they suck up to the aftermarket more. They will pick the quad with the most available hop-ups, bolt-ons, and things like that. Look at your back issues. Two years ago the Z400 was their baby. Before that the Raptor got some attention. Before that the 400EX was all that they wrote about. They never said much about Cannondale because it was not popular with the aftermarket. They love the 250R because it sells parts and parts sell ads. Personally I always pick the underdog so I'm switching sides on this one. I guess I'm a little biased because I met a fella at my local track who had a 450R set up sorta like my Raptor and I fell in love with it. If I get something new I'll probably get a 450R just to be different. That's why I've been hangin' out over here lately. If it's allright with ya'll. I'll get flamed on, I'm used to it.

This is the first time that "money talks" has ever made sense to me. Thanks for the light bulb moment.

300racer

04-29-2004, 02:20 AM

Originally posted by Woody_YFZ
I just have to state an observation here. Just out of curiosity, I counted the ads in my June Dirt Wheels from each manufacturer. Honda had one for just Honda and two in conjunction with (had their name on it too) Ohtsu and Moose. Yamaha had zero ads (yes, you read that correctly, 0 ads.). There are tons of pics of Yamis, but they are all advertisements for other products. Suzuki, Bombardier and Polaris also all had one ad a piece, so I don't buy the Yamaha paid them off story.
Now my opinion. I own both the Yamaha and the Honda and I ride mostly mx and I agree with most everything dirtwheels has stated. My Honda sits while I ride my Yami because I like the way it handles better, I just wish I could put the money into both of them like they did on the shootout. Like they stated at the end of their shootout "Honda owners will not be disappointed with their purchase". I agree with that statement fully.
I might be wrong ecause it had been a while sence I have seen a dw mag but isn't there a yamaha ad on the back of the mag

kazpr

04-29-2004, 05:24 AM

April and may issues have yamaha on one page inside and on the back cover. Believe me a advertising guy the back page of dirtwheels I would guess is close to 3-5X the price as a inside page. Heck maybe more. One add is back page and one is 3.9% financing rate.

psd1

04-29-2004, 07:07 AM

Blah, Blah, Blah! That's all I hear when I read another pissin contest thread! Ford/Chevy, Arctic Cat/Ski-Doo...Ride what you want. If it happens that your ride isnt as quick/fast/good/pretty as the competition...oh well! Live with it.

I hate to say it, but the Honda isnt up to snuff against the YFZ...even if you think the mags (ALL OF THEM) are biased against Honda, it's hard to believe that the mags would risk making Honda mad just for a few bucks. These mags are in it for the long haul, not just this months issue.

Look at it this way, at least if the mags keep harping on the Honda there is a better chance that Honda will address the problems...and yes there are obviously problems...if you want to believe them or not is up to you!

Scottie Mac

04-29-2004, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by psd1
Blah, Blah, Blah! That's all I hear when I read another pissin contest thread! Ford/Chevy, Arctic Cat/Ski-Doo...Ride what you want. If it happens that your ride isnt as quick/fast/good/pretty as the competition...oh well! Live with it.

I hate to say it, but the Honda isnt up to snuff against the YFZ...even if you think the mags (ALL OF THEM) are biased against Honda, it's hard to believe that the mags would risk making Honda mad just for a few bucks. These mags are in it for the long haul, not just this months issue.

Look at it this way, at least if the mags keep harping on the Honda there is a better chance that Honda will address the problems...and yes there are obviously problems...if you want to believe them or not is up to you!

OMG!!!! FINALLY, someone got it right! I have never bought into the mags are paid off BS. Historically, DW and most mags have fallen all over themselves to compliment Honda, because it IS the most popular manufacturer. DW uaually just likes whatever the "new" machine is. First it ws the EX, then it was the Z, and since the YFZ and TRX came out in the same year, they picked which one they thought best. BUT, they still menetion in every article that the Honda is a fine quad. Guys, its a stupid magazine. Who cares?

I think Sparky said it best, he has a HOnda and he loves it, isn't that all that matters? It would be so boring around here is we all liked/owned the same quad, cars, trucks, etc. Ford vs Chevy, Yankess vs Red Sox, rivalries are the spice of the "Man's World"

Scott

joe1l

04-29-2004, 10:09 AM

Fine with me, I have no problem with everyone thinking that we have second rate quads. We know better. How many YFZ are there at the races, dunes, and trails, a SH1!T LOAD. I don't want to be part of the masses. I don't want people to ecpect me to be faster, I want them to think its what I have done to mine, or me riding it.

I agree, I hope the masses buy the yfz's!!! I like being different!!!
Now if you read the article, i can't help but notice a couple things. First 1 bike had Kenda Klaws the other had Maxxis Razrs. Now this wouldn't be a big deal to me, if they weren't trying to write an ubiased article with 2 machines setup exactly the same!! Next, Dirtwheels wrote "However, lap times on both machines were nearly identical once our riders got used to both machines." They also noted that 2 out 3 riders prefered the Yami, while one liked the honda. The Dumbest coment I found by far was this one. "Starting the Honda is becoming more of an annoyance issue. It usually fires up in a kick or 2 but that's a kick more than the Yamaha" HMMMMM i remember a few years ago kickstarts were the perfered method of starting. I guess no one from dirtwheels has ever had a battery fail on them before!!! Just last week my buddy and I went riding 2.5 hours away in PA and his battery went on him. Lucky for him he had a second battery with him (normally I would say carrying a second battery is just silly, but not anymore) anyhow, I have read many a thread about the yfz's battery going dead!!! I can now finally say, I am very very happy I have a kickstart. Even when my buddy and I would stop, I was able to kick my bike over just as fast if not faster than my buddy could hit the button! Ah yes and the last BS comment DW wrote was this one "Now, after Yamaha bumps up the YFZ up to a true 450CC, the YFZ will be that much faster!" Gee I don't the remeber 10cc's making all that much of a difference. Well now if Honda bumps their compression, you are sure to see some more power!! Now I do agree the Yami, is an awesome quad and it does deserve alot of credit, and I'm quite happy Yamaha raised the bar. The only thing that annoys me is that Honda hasn't gotten any just credit, and if does get a compliment, it is overshadowed by something else like No E-start! Oh well I love my R, especially when it comes to the little things, like adjusting the chain, seperate tranny oil, and engine oil, nice comfortable ride!!! I'm happy with my choice, and I don't need dirtwheels to reassure me of that either!!

thomez

04-29-2004, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by joe1l
I agree, I hope the masses buy the yfz's!!! I like being different!!!
Now if you read the article, i can't help but notice a couple things. First 1 bike had Kenda Klaws the other had Maxxis Razrs. Now this wouldn't be a big deal to me, if they weren't trying to write an ubiased article with 2 machines setup exactly the same!! Next, Dirtwheels wrote "However, lap times on both machines were nearly identical once our riders got used to both machines." They also noted that 2 out 3 riders prefered the Yami, while one liked the honda. The Dumbest coment I found by far was this one. "Starting the Honda is becoming more of an annoyance issue. It usually fires up in a kick or 2 but that's a kick more than the Yamaha" HMMMMM i remember a few years ago kickstarts were the perfered method of starting. I guess no one from dirtwheels has ever had a battery fail on them before!!! Just last week my buddy and I went riding 2.5 hours away in PA and his battery went on him. Lucky for him he had a second battery with him (normally I would say carrying a second battery is just silly, but not anymore) anyhow, I have read many a thread about the yfz's battery going dead!!! I can now finally say, I am very very happy I have a kickstart. Even when my buddy and I would stop, I was able to kick my bike over just as fast if not faster than my buddy could hit the button! Ah yes and the last BS comment DW wrote was this one "Now, after Yamaha bumps up the YFZ up to a true 450CC, the YFZ will be that much faster!" Gee I don't the remeber 10cc's making all that much of a difference. Well now if Honda bumps their compression, you are sure to see some more power!! Now I do agree the Yami, is an awesome quad and it does deserve alot of credit, and I'm quite happy Yamaha raised the bar. The only thing that annoys me is that Honda hasn't gotten any just credit, and if does get a compliment, it is overshadowed by something else like No E-start! Oh well I love my R, especially when it comes to the little things, like adjusting the chain, seperate tranny oil, and engine oil, nice comfortable ride!!! I'm happy with my choice, and I don't need dirtwheels to reassure me of that either!!

They said that they switched the tires back and forth between the 2 machines, that didn't impact the test.

Kickstart is great, and the YFZ offers both options. If I owned one I would probably install kicker and leave the E-start... backups have been preferred in the 4x4 world forever! why not on a sport atv...

The battery problem is solved with a larger battery or a new rectifier - 50 bucks.... woo woo.

If they are making 1HP at the flywheel per 10cc, then the 11cc increase will be almost a HP at the rear wheels - not a ton but 1 more HP than they have now.

Honda won't bump compression, IMO, because they don't want to sacrafice reliability. Same for Ti valves.

450r is a great machine but I'm not convinced that in any single way, other than possibly comfort, it is better than the YFZ. But that is my opinion, and it really doesn't matter. I don't own either and will not be purchasing either anytime soon.

southbeach14

04-29-2004, 11:03 AM

the truth hurts honda lost, but i think they will make some changes and the 450r will be better than it is now.

UK450R

04-29-2004, 01:14 PM

Has anyone read the ATVSPORT shootout?

The YFZ won (just!), and probably deserves too (just!)

They seem to carry the same level of adds from all major manufactures, so MAYBE little less bias than Dirtweheels.

There final statement … our test riders consistently turned faster lap times on the Yamaha than the Honda, though the times for both machines were close. But don’t think that the YFZ walked away with a win here – both ATV’s would be an excellent choice for track or trail…

You pays your money, and you takes your choice.

My choice is Red – I ride XC and don’t want stupid niggling problems to ruin my weekend racing or to have to spend weekday evenings constantly fixing the same stupid niggling problems.

Manny55

04-29-2004, 03:06 PM

Did you know by getting rid of the whole e-start on the yfz450 and install the kick start option it knocks off 10 lbs.

sparky450AR

04-29-2004, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by Scottie Mac
OMG!!!! FINALLY, someone got it right! I have never bought into the mags are paid off BS. Historically, DW and most mags have fallen all over themselves to compliment Honda, because it IS the most popular manufacturer. DW uaually just likes whatever the "new" machine is. First it ws the EX, then it was the Z, and since the YFZ and TRX came out in the same year, they picked which one they thought best. BUT, they still menetion in every article that the Honda is a fine quad. Guys, its a stupid magazine. Who cares?

I think Sparky said it best, he has a HOnda and he loves it, isn't that all that matters? It would be so boring around here is we all liked/owned the same quad, cars, trucks, etc. Ford vs Chevy, Yankess vs Red Sox, rivalries are the spice of the "Man's World"

Scott

Your right, that magazine is stupid. I'm not trying to start even more arguing, but bassically what they said in the original 450 shootout issue was:

"If you dont mind having a twist throttle, being uncomfortable, bad brakes, not the most reliable quad, ect ect ect, buy the yamaha. Oh and the yamaha FEELS like it has a stronger motor, but when we dragged they were dead equal." Now some comments on the honda were ,It has the best brakes on the market, its was very comfortable, but didnt corner well in stock form, easy pull on the thumb throttle, reliable. But the motor made noise, and didnt FEEL as powerful as the yamahas (but it was).

I think there are hiddin messages in these shootouts, they said all this, BUT somehow the yamaha beats the hell out of the honda.:huh :huh

just wanted to bring that up, no flame on the yfz was intended

Scottie Mac

04-29-2004, 07:29 PM

Sparky,

Man, wtf? I have all the mags (rags) and have read all the shootouts. Were, in any, does it say the YFZ has "bad breaks" or is "a less reliable motor"? They mention that the Hondas breaks are awesome, and they are, but they never mention the YFZs being "bad". And I can't find any of them saying anything about reliablity issues.

Yes, some people have had battery issues with YFZs. I race regions every weekend and ride with a bunch of YFZs (shocking, I know) and have NEVER seen a single battery failure. There were a few early production YFZs that had a burr on the shift drum, Yamaha covered these.

Now I know of at least three Hondas that cracked the cases near the kicker. I also have read on this forum where a few have had transmission issues because of a miss-splined shift drum. I am SURE Honda will cover these problems. SO lets jst say NEITHER are as reliable as a 400ex. And, to be honest, they shouldn't. We are talking about next generation 4 strokes that rev to the moon and produce near 40 hp stock, not an air cooled mid 20hp machine with a motor whose technology dates back 20 years.

I thought we had gotten by this childish talk bad about one quad to make the other look better stuff.

If the Honda had won all, not one, two or three, but all of the shootouts, you guys would be praising those mags like there was no other.

The YFZ has a lower ride hieght, more travel, a MUCH better rear linkage, electric start (a BIG deal for some people) the ability to have both elec and a kicker as a back up, is quicker and just as fast as the 450R. When you have two machines that are this "close" when one has these advantages, how can you say the other is a shootout winner? There is always a winner in a competition, it doesn't mean that the "winner" is the choioce for you, me or the other guy, that is up to each individual to decide.

Some of you guys act as if you can't sleep at night if Honda doesn't win all the shootouts and is proclaimed the quad of the century. Again, like I said before, does it really matter? Am I the only one who thinks that is just a bit childish?

Scott

PS

What in the world are we gonna do if the Suzuki comes out and just plain washes the floor with the Honda and the Yamaha. I am afraid some of you guys might have heart attacks!

r450rr

04-29-2004, 09:39 PM

i just wish they would say their both good quads. not totally dog the honda. i mean the only thing they said bad about the yamaha in the whole qrticle was, it had some engine vibration, and where in the hell do they get the 450r is twitchy at highspeeds.. isnt everyquad..?:huh

it says the honda has a twitchy front in ,, then the next sentence it says at highspeeds the yamaha had more vibration
:huh

dirtwheels is stupid

psd1

04-29-2004, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by r450rr

dirtwheels is stupid

Then dont get your panties in a bunch about it...press on & ride!

300racer

04-30-2004, 01:43 AM

I kinda like that the honda's are gettin dogged on because in my town only me and my buddy are the only two that has one and I like it that way. there are yamaha's every where. I love the kikstarter it is quicker for the type of racing that I do if it start on the first kick witch it has at every race but one and that ws because I left the key off lol and I love to watch my buddies faces that own the yammis when I start it sittin on the seat with one kick. and honda has awsome atv's for years it about time yamaha's got a quad that is just as good if not better which means that honda is prolly trying to make some changes to the 450r to make it better than the yamaha and if they do yamaha will prolly do the same for the next year so the quads will only get better insted of staying the same like the 400 ex did for 5 years.

yellowrider

04-30-2004, 05:11 AM

has it ever occured to you that the yamaha is a better bike stock?

i mean it does have more power, handles better, doesnt feel like a raptor, electric start? what more could you ask for?

the honda is a great bike is has alot of power just not as much as the yamaha, it handles good but not as good as a yamaha.

the only reason why you all are crying about the shootouts you want a honda because of their relibilty record it wasnt for that you would not even consider the honda now would ya? ..

truth hurts sometimes.. :eek2: :D

MIA450R

04-30-2004, 05:54 AM

My favorite (gay) quote in the article was "...to try and improve the looks of the Honda, we ditched the headlights and installed a Quad Tech hood." LoL...losers.

Look, their precious YFZ is a damn sharp looking quad...no question. But in my opinion, the Honda is an extremely good looking ride with a totally new edge to its looks...styled after the CR dirtbikes. I agree, the headlight assy cant be removed without the front end looking weird, but I don't give a sheite about that. Obviously Dirt Wheels just doesn't like the looks of the 'R. Whatever. To each his own.

Oh, also the last line of the article, "Knowing Honda, a change to the 450R is not on the books." Based on the last 10+ years of Honda R&D for quads, this could be true. But, with their new focus on true racing quads and factory-backed racing, I am SURE they do not want to lose races, and more importantly, sales, if one or two mods would make the difference. I think they will be making mods that count...such as e-start, longer swingarm, revised rear linkage, and possibly putting the HRC cam (not whole kit) in as standard equip.

seatec

04-30-2004, 06:12 AM

I love these threads. Hmm lemme predict the end of this thread.

We are all going o agree that we have two very compatible quads and whichever one you choose is just a personal preference not based on one being much better than the other.

Anybody take odds on this prediction? :D

THe RM Z450F is already being tested and i bet that next year the 2006 Z450 will bring even more uproar. ( PLease, dont put revers on that quad, lol)

Oddly enough these new quads have actually brought the blue and red camps closer to each dont you think.

Blizzard24

04-30-2004, 08:11 AM

I want to add my .02$ here. I have been riding since the 250R was released in 1986. Even in the mags then, one quad always came out on top, just as one is now. Same results: This quad handled better, had better mid range than the other two, sat lower, and was just a better platform for racing.

These shootouts went on like this for 4 years w the same quad winning every time. BUT Just as today it was close, another quad was quicker. And the third quad had a better lowend. So the shootouts were always close.

That was the 250R vs The Quadracer vs the Tecate 4.

Over time, we were brainwashed that the 250R was legendary, well in stock form it was just slightly better than the other 2. Now the yfz has come out and it is on its way to becoming "legendary" while it is only slightly better than its competition.

Honda had its day in the spotlight (almost 20 yrs actually), they also had a chance to regain that spotlight but didnt this time.

Enter the YFZ, it is today what the 250R was in 86. Yamaha had an objective and they accomplished it.

This is not to say that the Honda isnt a great machine, it is, just as the Quadracer and tecate4 were 20 yrs ago, but its just not the YFZ just as they werent the 250R.

For you guys that buy a 450R or already own a 450R... ENJOY IT, you will have your share of beating YFZ's just as some YFZ's will enjoy beating you. they are that close.

History repeats itself, just the names change!

04-30-2004, 08:57 AM

Yamaha rules

BHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Scottie Mac

04-30-2004, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by 300racer
I kinda like that the honda's are gettin dogged on because in my town only me and my buddy are the only two that has one and I like it that way. there are yamaha's every where. I love the kikstarter it is quicker for the type of racing that I do if it start on the first kick witch it has at every race but one and that ws because I left the key off lol and I love to watch my buddies faces that own the yammis when I start it sittin on the seat with one kick. and honda has awsome atv's for years it about time yamaha's got a quad that is just as good if not better which means that honda is prolly trying to make some changes to the 450r to make it better than the yamaha and if they do yamaha will prolly do the same for the next year so the quads will only get better insted of staying the same like the 400 ex did for 5 years.

2 Points:

1) Very good points. If there was only one decent quad out there, the manufacturers would not have any reason to improve, which in turn means that we would not ever get any improvements. (see 400ex)

2) Have you ever heard of a period? Or run on scentence? LOL Just Kididng!

Scott

kgbg

04-30-2004, 09:48 AM

Honda won't bump compression, IMO, because they don't want to sacrafice reliability. Same for Ti valves.

So Thomez, is that saying that the Yamaha is less reliable?
It sounds that way. I would not say that, but you got me thinking..........

thomez

04-30-2004, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by kgbg
So Thomez, is that saying that the Yamaha is less reliable?
It sounds that way. I would not say that, but you got me thinking..........

Only time will tell IMO - but there is no doubt that Ti valves do not last as long as stainless, right?

Compression could probably go either way, but increased compression would have to make more stress on the piston, rings, right?

Like I said, time will tell. I think if looking at 2 spec sheets, when you saw a motor with higher compression and Ti valves vs another with lower compression and steel valves, you would quickly say "I bet machine #2 will run forever" - think 400ex.

Blizzard24

04-30-2004, 09:55 AM

I dont forsee Honda or Yamaha doing much, when they release a quad, they usually dont make any drastic changes for the life of the ATV, they may fine tune them, like giving the 450R a slightly longer swingarm but nothing drastic. The YFZ may or may not bump up to a true 450, it is already a monster and nothing is beating it, so why would yamaha invest a ton of money for retooling their assembly lines, it would only take away from their profit. And it IS all about money!

If the Honda was smoking it, then there would be a reason to reinvest, but not how the current situation is.

With Honda the same should hold true, they wont mess w something that is staying w the YFZ, it too would erode profit, thats why they leave it up to the aftermarket to create these go fast parts.

MIA450R

04-30-2004, 12:14 PM

OCRaptor..

You do make good points, but how old are you? If you are in your 30's (or older) you might know 1st hand that back in the early 80's, Honda, Suzuki and Kawi made regular changes to the 250cc 2-stroke racing quads and trikes to stay ahead of the others. There were many yearly (performance) design changes on the 250R back then, and had our sport not "died" back in 1988, I'm sure the racing quads would have received as much, if not more R&D attention than the moto-x bikes have always seen.

I'm by no means saying you are wrong, but, I wouldn't be so certain that Honda and or Yamaha wont be making moderate changes to these quads, based on the feedback they get from racers, general public and magazines. I say magazines last because PART of the reason DirtWheels dogs Honda so much is to try to get them to push the envelope like Yamaha currently does. Only, it really doesn't work....as the past 15 years shows, Honda does NOT listen to the suggestions of DirtWheels, where they do listen (more and more) to the racers and general public (and the CSPC/US govt).

word.

SuzukiRacr07

04-30-2004, 01:11 PM

I don't mean to make the R sound like crap because I have ridden one and really liked it. I, myself, got a YFZ because I'm a smaller guy (5'2" 110lbs). But, I actually did like the YFZ better. Most of yall with the R seem like yall do not want to accept that Yamaha actually made a quad as good as Honda (finally). Notice, I did not say better, I said as good. Honda has always been on top ever since the 250R and we all know that, but the YFZ is just as good as the R. Again, I feel a lot more comfortable on the YFZ because I'm smaller, but don't say that Dirt Wheels is crap because they actually put the YFZ above the R. I put an exhaust, arms, shocks, everything on my YFZ so it handles very well. I had a choice to get the YFZ or the TRX a while back and am glad I chose the YFZ, but I could have been happy with either. Yamaha is not paying off the magazines. The YFZ does have more power, it does handle better, and it is more of a race oriented machine STOCK which is how most of the magazines test them. They are pretty much even after all the mods though, but most real racers do like the YFZ better. I rode a R w/ a Sparks and my YFZ has a TC and I feel my YFZ definitely has the power advantage, BUT I race MX and it is ALL RIDER. So, what I am trying to say is that the YFZ is just as good as the R so accept it. I am not trying to start anything, but it just seemed like the time to say it.

MX#9

04-30-2004, 03:07 PM

Time to go on a rant I guess. I've been reading this thread and others that are similar,same old BS. THE MAGS[every one]LIKED THE YFZ BETTER, EVERY ONE. Deal with it. It don't mean squat. So some of the Honda guys can't stand losing anything, even insignificant magazine shootouts. Scottie Mac is right, if they had a totally reverse position on the shootout,the Honda guys would be puffing their chests out and saying "see see I told you the Honda is unbeatable. You know the CRF250 won the 125 shootout,but I can guarantee that there will be plenty of KTM's Yamaha's,Suzuki's, Kawasaki's [especially Stewart's], smoking the shootout winning CRF250. Same holds true with the TRX. Riders all over the country will be beating YFZ's with their TRX's all summer long and vise versa. Hell there are still some modded 400ex's smoking the current wave of new iron. Again,don't mean squat. I suspect that if every replier to the thread had the oppurtunity to thrash both machines on their turf for a couple of weeks,they would be embarassed by their currenrt replies,ans at the same time ,humbled. The only guy I know that has both quads and the cash to throw mods at them is that Pappy fellow. He seems to be pretty unbiased,and his posts reflect those of the magazines. What does that tell you? I have a 450r and not once have I wished I had a YFZ. If you are any good at all you would KNOW you could win on either machine. Quit your damn whining and go out and do it!

Scottie Mac

04-30-2004, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by MX#9
Time to go on a rant I guess. I've been reading this thread and others that are similar,same old BS. THE MAGS[every one]LIKED THE YFZ BETTER, EVERY ONE. Deal with it. It don't mean squat. So some of the Honda guys can't stand losing anything, even insignificant magazine shootouts. Scottie Mac is right, if they had a totally reverse position on the shootout,the Honda guys would be puffing their chests out and saying "see see I told you the Honda is unbeatable. You know the CRF250 won the 125 shootout,but I can guarantee that there will be plenty of KTM's Yamaha's,Suzuki's, Kawasaki's [especially Stewart's], smoking the shootout winning CRF250. Same holds true with the TRX. Riders all over the country will be beating YFZ's with their TRX's all summer long and vise versa. Hell there are still some modded 400ex's smoking the current wave of new iron. Again,don't mean squat. I suspect that if every replier to the thread had the oppurtunity to thrash both machines on their turf for a couple of weeks,they would be embarassed by their currenrt replies,ans at the same time ,humbled. The only guy I know that has both quads and the cash to throw mods at them is that Pappy fellow. He seems to be pretty unbiased,and his posts reflect those of the magazines. What does that tell you? I have a 450r and not once have I wished I had a YFZ. If you are any good at all you would KNOW you could win on either machine. Quit your damn whining and go out and do it!

Excellent post! I don't think Pappy is the only one who is unbiased, sounds like you are as well.

Scott

sparky450AR

04-30-2004, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by Scottie Mac
Sparky,

Man, wtf? I have all the mags (rags) and have read all the shootouts. Were, in any, does it say the YFZ has "bad breaks" or is "a less reliable motor"? They mention that the Hondas breaks are awesome, and they are, but they never mention the YFZs being "bad". And I can't find any of them saying anything about reliablity issues.

Yes, some people have had battery issues with YFZs. I race regions every weekend and ride with a bunch of YFZs (shocking, I know) and have NEVER seen a single battery failure. There were a few early production YFZs that had a burr on the shift drum, Yamaha covered these.

Now I know of at least three Hondas that cracked the cases near the kicker. I also have read on this forum where a few have had transmission issues because of a miss-splined shift drum. I am SURE Honda will cover these problems. SO lets jst say NEITHER are as reliable as a 400ex. And, to be honest, they shouldn't. We are talking about next generation 4 strokes that rev to the moon and produce near 40 hp stock, not an air cooled mid 20hp machine with a motor whose technology dates back 20 years.

I thought we had gotten by this childish talk bad about one quad to make the other look better stuff.

If the Honda had won all, not one, two or three, but all of the shootouts, you guys would be praising those mags like there was no other.

The YFZ has a lower ride hieght, more travel, a MUCH better rear linkage, electric start (a BIG deal for some people) the ability to have both elec and a kicker as a back up, is quicker and just as fast as the 450R. When you have two machines that are this "close" when one has these advantages, how can you say the other is a shootout winner? There is always a winner in a competition, it doesn't mean that the "winner" is the choioce for you, me or the other guy, that is up to each individual to decide.

Some of you guys act as if you can't sleep at night if Honda doesn't win all the shootouts and is proclaimed the quad of the century. Again, like I said before, does it really matter? Am I the only one who thinks that is just a bit childish?

Scott

PS

What in the world are we gonna do if the Suzuki comes out and just plain washes the floor with the Honda and the Yamaha. I am afraid some of you guys might have heart attacks!

Once again dude, you kicked my ***. lol, anyway im over it. I did think they said something about yamahas brakes not being as good, not "bad" though. I got carried away, you know. And I remember them mentioning honda reliability, all that stuff. I personally really dont care, but that magazine and its phony words persuade so many people. People get the impression that the quad is junk. That really hurts hondas sales. Its not the yamaha i was mad at, it was DIRTWHEELS.

see you guys later

Scottie Mac

04-30-2004, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by sparky450AR
Once again dude, you kicked my ***. lol, anyway im over it. I did think they said something about yamahas brakes not being as good, not "bad" though. I got carried away, you know. And I remember them mentioning honda reliability, all that stuff. I personally really dont care, but that magazine and its phony words persuade so many people. People get the impression that the quad is junk. That really hurts hondas sales. Its not the yamaha i was mad at, it was DIRTWHEELS.

see you guys later

Ah Sparky, you can't let DW get you down, you and I both know they ain't worth it. Anyway, there is a good chance that neither quad could have any major changes and next year they will say the Honda wins the shootout. Someone else on here put it best, DW is best suit for reading and picture looking at while on the "throan" doing your "business"

LOL

Scott

86atc250r

04-30-2004, 08:21 PM

As for the YFZ and 250R, yes the YFZ uses shorter shocks because it has a newer, more advanced frame design. Even with shorter shocks, they are getting the same amount of travel out of YFZs with aftermarket suspension. While the front end of the 450R may be similar to the old 250R design, it handles NOTHING LIKE the 250R.

ScottyMac ---- I've read many of your posts for a while now, from what I can tell you're a YFZ owner and fan that tries to take the high ground, but still injects in subtle ways that the YFZ is a better machine.

However - in your latest series of posts I've seen a lot of stuff I don't agree with in the least - the above post being a pretty big example.

Please explain to me this "more advanced" YFZ front end that mysteriously gets more travel out of shorter shocks and handles better because of it. I have a pretty firm grip on front end design, leverage ratios, and how things interact, so I'm anxious to hear about what I missed on the YFZ that makes it better. Surely there's more than just a more aggressive front leverage ratio to this "more advanced" chassis.

If you ask me, the YFZ's front end is it's weak point. The YFZ front end is an improvement over past Yamaha designs, but is still based upon the construction they've used for years - which is less than optimal.

Just because it has gimmicky "gull wing" control arms does not mean it's some sort of mystery advantage. The gullwing arms, while looking cool actually offer two disadvantages --- strength and ground clearance. If you want a control arm that doesn't have straight tubes but offers some advantages - look at the ones Bill Ballance runs.

I'm insterested in your thoughts, conclusions and the tech disussion about this advanced design.

One other point you made - at the nationals there are numerous YFZs and few 450Rs - insinuating that it's because the 450R is an inferior machine.

Surely most of us know the real reason behind this is because they had much of last season to prep and practice on those machines - the Honda came out after the start of this season. Now, ask yourself... If you were a national rider and had the choice of two machines that performed very closely to each other. Which would you choose - the one you could purchase, have ready, and have practice time on long before the season began, or the one that came out after the season started.

Better yet, if you had a YFZ would you sell it to get a 450R after the season started?

Now - turn the tables ---- had the 450R came out in July and the YFZ in February, do you think everyone would be flocking to the YFZ and abandoning their 450Rs?

I think most reasonable adult minds know the answer & that is the reason you will see a vast majority of YFZ's at various race circuits this season. Look for things to even up a bit next year - but even then, many racers do not change quads every year so you will continue to see a lot of YFZs out there.

The biggest mistake Honda made with the 450R has nothing to do with it's performance - it was it's release timing. Now, since the uninformed masses see YFZs everywhere, they assume that the YFZ has some sort of huge advantage, not giving any consideration to the discussion above - the release date is still hurting Honda in this regard & the magazines are catering to this for whatever reason.

All in all, all this YFZ hype has been a lot of fun. My racing is cranking up now and the local Yamaha clan has been quietly planning their dominance, banking on what they've read in the magazines. I gave them a little taste of reality a couple weekends ago & they're likely a little more concerned now - especially considering they've got their YFZ's fully configured and I still don't have a pipe yet. This season's going to be fun......

Blizzard24

04-30-2004, 10:41 PM

MIA450R, I do remember the subtle changes the big three made in the late 80's, but they were minor in the grand scheme of things. Some minor motor mods in the 250R and a major mod from 85-87 Quad racers. But from 87 on, the changes there were minimal too. These quads also sold for $2800 brand new, they are pushing the limits as to what people will spend on these machines now and any changes will mean keeping the price nearly the same but costing more to build through retooling and new parts. I still dont believe Honda is putting the R&D in to ATVs that they could for fear of the CPSC and lawsuits. Yamaha is notorious for keeping the same product out for years w minimal changes.

Take a look at Suzuki w the Z400, they improved the frame and changed the chain adjustment, thats it. I just dont see Honda or Yamaha making these changes w all the aftermarket companies out there already perfecting these machines.

As I said in another thread, I would have went w the Honda if it were a little smaller, the YFZ just fealt better... this coming from a guy that owned a 250R from 87- 94 and still misses it.

Both quads are a home run for the ATV world, I just think the YFZ was hit a little further out of the park.

joe1l

04-30-2004, 11:21 PM

I've been reading this thread and others that are similar,same old BS. THE MAGS[every one]LIKED THE YFZ BETTER, EVERY ONE
Thats funny DW, and ATV Sport are both owned by the same company (Hight Torque pub.) Now i subscribe to all 3 magazines and get annoyed month after month when I read the same BS articles in each magazine, just written differently. ATV Sport seems as if it is in bed with DW also as I notice similar articles in ATV sport too. Anyhow, when it comes down to it, Honda's atv costs 400 cheaper than a YFZ, If take that 400 and add a high comp piston and a cam....guess who in front again?? This way, Honda still has a reliable quad for the novice and weekend warrior, and for the true enthusiast, he can spend the $400 on making his quad faster!! People forget about that little price difference!
:eek2:

I can care less which quad is better overall or wins a dw shootout, I just my atv's RED!!!

Pappy please lock this thread before more flames come towards our precious honda. :blah:

thomez

05-01-2004, 01:33 AM

People will continue buying the YFZ as long as it is kicking arse and taking names in every kind of racing at the national level, and it is - no excuses needed from Honda - just go win on Sunday, you will sell on Monday.

300racer

05-01-2004, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by Scottie Mac
2 Points:

1) Very good points. If there was only one decent quad out there, the manufacturers would not have any reason to improve, which in turn means that we would not ever get any improvements. (see 400ex)

2) Have you ever heard of a period? Or run on scentence? LOL Just Kididng!

Scott
of corse I have hard of a period it is what a women get once a month:D

jasontrx450r

05-01-2004, 11:04 AM

i have a 450r...maybe the yfz is better...but i dont think by much....in my opinion they are so close...knowing that they are i dont know why the mags exagerate the yfz being so much better than the 450r

jarsong

05-01-2004, 02:15 PM

Seems to me the ALL mag's dislikes follow the general publics. Light front end, no e-start, to much work to make it fast with the HRC kit, sits a little high so it's more tipsy.

Ironically these are the same complaints/concerns we had BEFORE the bike ever was released at all to the public. The 450R had a BAJA win and everyone freaked. What they forgot is it's hard to loose when you have a helicopter and more riders than anyone else.

But, we could see it was higher, had a shorter wheel base and no e-start. These are all the major complaints. I know I know, lets here it, E-start is for weenies... BUT, your not in there market for selling the thing and you are in the minority, like it or lump it. With a 95% probability I would bet e-start is at the top of the list for people going to the Yamaha. I don't care how easy it starts.

So the Dirt Wheels shootout outcome is predictable, and there shouldn't be any of this who advertises more crap flown around. The same results will show from other mags as well because mathematics are determining the outcome with like riders and swapping riders.

I can tell you though having dragged another YFZ and a pumped Z400 that the average person would NOT be able to tell the difference and I would go as far as saying whoever gets the best hole shot will win. By the way 3rd gear on the YFZ is where the most destruction happens in drags against other bikes so the sooner you can get there the better.
jarsong

sparky450AR

05-01-2004, 02:53 PM

yeah, im sure when quads FINNALY get as big as dirtbikes on the racing level, they will all have electric start.

In my opinion if someone decides on a quad over another one because one doesnt have electric start, they dont need to be on either of them.

And, ive never really understood this "front end light" business. If you put the 450R motor in a 400ex it would be front end light too. You can keep the front end down easily if you want to. I like being able to pop the wheels off the ground ondemand whenever i want. It especially helps in the woods. A lighter front end gives the bike more agility.

If your just sitting there on the bike and you smash the throttle, yes the front end will come up. It has massive torque, where the YFZ motors dont. This is what makes the yfz motor more mx friendly (sometimes).

thomez

05-01-2004, 03:00 PM

More agility? Maybe popping the wheels up over a stump, but any other time you can't really do much good with the front end off the ground - there is no steering capability. Doesn't sound too agile to me.

sparky450AR

05-01-2004, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by thomez
More agility? Maybe popping the wheels up over a stump, but any other time you can't really do much good with the front end off the ground - there is no steering capability. Doesn't sound too agile to me.

If you've ridden one, you should know there is plenty of steering capability.:huh

It comes up if you want it too, and doesnt if you dont want it too.

thomez

05-01-2004, 03:10 PM

If it is easily controlled, then it isn't a problem. You just get the impression that it isn't since so many people, magazines, whatever - have commented on it. You want to be able to mash the throttle, that is why you will see most of them in any serious competition with an extended swingarm, or so it seems so far.

Time will tell :)

sparky450AR

05-01-2004, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by thomez
If it is easily controlled, then it isn't a problem. You just get the impression that it isn't since so many people, magazines, whatever - have commented on it. You want to be able to mash the throttle, that is why you will see most of them in any serious competition with an extended swingarm, or so it seems so far.

Time will tell :)

Your right, if i was going to race MX (which probably less than 25% of the people that buy this quad are gonna do) I would lengthen it a little. But i dont see any quads on the national level with stock suspension setups. Maybe i need to look harder.

btw, did you enjoy your chicken burrito supreme?

thomez

05-01-2004, 03:17 PM

Dude, it was sweeet! I had to walk across the street and get another to compliment it... rush to the border! :devil:

sparky450AR

05-01-2004, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by thomez
Dude, it was sweeet! I had to walk across the street and get another to compliment it... rush to the border! :devil:

lmao, ohio and indiana...were pretty far from mexico

thomez

05-01-2004, 03:38 PM

I'm in New Orleans at school, but it would still be a haul!

Scottie Mac

05-01-2004, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by 86atc250r
As for the YFZ and 250R, yes the YFZ uses shorter shocks because it has a newer, more advanced frame design. Even with shorter shocks, they are getting the same amount of travel out of YFZs with aftermarket suspension. While the front end of the 450R may be similar to the old 250R design, it handles NOTHING LIKE the 250R.

ScottyMac ---- I've read many of your posts for a while now, from what I can tell you're a YFZ owner and fan that tries to take the high ground, but still injects in subtle ways that the YFZ is a better machine.

However - in your latest series of posts I've seen a lot of stuff I don't agree with in the least - the above post being a pretty big example.

Please explain to me this "more advanced" YFZ front end that mysteriously gets more travel out of shorter shocks and handles better because of it. I have a pretty firm grip on front end design, leverage ratios, and how things interact, so I'm anxious to hear about what I missed on the YFZ that makes it better. Surely there's more than just a more aggressive front leverage ratio to this "more advanced" chassis.

If you ask me, the YFZ's front end is it's weak point. The YFZ front end is an improvement over past Yamaha designs, but is still based upon the construction they've used for years - which is less than optimal.

Just because it has gimmicky "gull wing" control arms does not mean it's some sort of mystery advantage. The gullwing arms, while looking cool actually offer two disadvantages --- strength and ground clearance. If you want a control arm that doesn't have straight tubes but offers some advantages - look at the ones Bill Ballance runs.

I'm insterested in your thoughts, conclusions and the tech disussion about this advanced design.

One other point you made - at the nationals there are numerous YFZs and few 450Rs - insinuating that it's because the 450R is an inferior machine.

Surely most of us know the real reason behind this is because they had much of last season to prep and practice on those machines - the Honda came out after the start of this season. Now, ask yourself... If you were a national rider and had the choice of two machines that performed very closely to each other. Which would you choose - the one you could purchase, have ready, and have practice time on long before the season began, or the one that came out after the season started.

Better yet, if you had a YFZ would you sell it to get a 450R after the season started?

Now - turn the tables ---- had the 450R came out in July and the YFZ in February, do you think everyone would be flocking to the YFZ and abandoning their 450Rs?

I think most reasonable adult minds know the answer & that is the reason you will see a vast majority of YFZ's at various race circuits this season. Look for things to even up a bit next year - but even then, many racers do not change quads every year so you will continue to see a lot of YFZs out there.

The biggest mistake Honda made with the 450R has nothing to do with it's performance - it was it's release timing. Now, since the uninformed masses see YFZs everywhere, they assume that the YFZ has some sort of huge advantage, not giving any consideration to the discussion above - the release date is still hurting Honda in this regard & the magazines are catering to this for whatever reason.

All in all, all this YFZ hype has been a lot of fun. My racing is cranking up now and the local Yamaha clan has been quietly planning their dominance, banking on what they've read in the magazines. I gave them a little taste of reality a couple weekends ago & they're likely a little more concerned now - especially considering they've got their YFZ's fully configured and I still don't have a pipe yet. This season's going to be fun......

ATC,

Well, where do I start? As far as the front end, someone on this forum complained that the YFZ did nopt have as good a front end design as, say an old 250r because of rake and the fact that they uses shorter shocks in LT form. I disagree. Yes, the YFZ has vertually no rake. Rake, in my opinion is over rated. If it was so important, why do aftermarket frame companies such as LSR use less rake than the original Honda design? My LSR 426 had less rake than my Lovins framed 250r. The lovins frame was very close to the stock 250r frame. In my opinion, the LSR was a better handling frame, but, like I have said numerous times, everyone has opinions. As far as the shock, the actual travel difference between a yfz front end and a 250r front end is under a half an inch. Even thought he YFZ uses a shorter shock. I find it som funny that people believe that just because a shock is longer, it has more travel. Well, check this out, up until last season, Joe Bryd used standard travel lenth shocks. (PEPs) When I bought his 250R I questioned why he would use those and he explained to me that the difference in actuall travel was very little and LT shocks that were not properly set up will cause the frame to hit the ground. (MOST people don't have Wayne at PEP to set up shocks) I know this to be true. I have bottomed out many times on my LT LSR bike. Now, you can bottom out anything, but if you have so much travel that the wheels will compress above the bottom of the frame, you are going to bottom out harder than if you used standard travel shocks that didn't. I didn't quite understand at first, but makes sence. As for teh travel itself, the YFZ stock shocks are a hair shorter than the stock TRX shocks, BUT, it has more travel, front and rear.

YES, I have a YFZ, I actually have two. If I had the money, I WOULD have a TRX as well, I don't believe there is such a thing as having too many.

As far as the racers go, I understand that the YFZ has been out for a while. If you go back and read, I said this before. What I mentioned was that the TRXs I saw at the two Natonals I attended ran well off the start, but didn't seem to handle as good once the races got going. WHy do you think ELka and Walsh are hard at work fixing the rear linkage design? Now when it comes to racing, it is all rider anyway, but I stand by what I saw with my OWN EYES.

And as far as racers not switching between seasons, did you attend any of the races last year after the YFZ came out? There were PLEBTY of Z riders who switched as soon as they could. Most of the full season racers would switch in a minute. If you can afford to travel all spring/summer and race on the National Tour, I doubt they would let 10 grand keep them from upgrading if they felt it was neccesary. Not all, but more than you would think.

I try to be as unbiased as possible. Yes, I like the Yamaha, I believe it is the best sprot ATV EVR produced. I like the Honda, but when you have two machines, you are always going to like one more than the other. If you cover up the logos, look at the stats, the YFZ is a better machine than the HOnda. First time for everything. Lord knows that it has taken them forever to catch up. But, I will tell you this, if the Suzuki comes out and is that much better, I wouldn'tthink twice about switching.

To each his own, trying to make everyone think just like you is never going to happen. I know it, you know it. It is just nice to be able to argue/debate about these knew generation ATVS

Scott

86atc250r

05-01-2004, 05:37 PM

Scott, you're right, it is good to be able to debate about these two excellent machines --- It's too bad so many are just out to argue mindlessly instead of actually talk about the attributes of each machine in a mature and realistic manner....

Rake --- it's true, some chassis builders do use less rake than the 250R, heck even Honda themselves use less rake on all their more modern machines... I have not gotten an explanation from anyone "in the know" as to why someone would go close to zero like Yamaha. I have talked to people involved in setting up some of the top pro's quads and they have also questioned the reasons some frame builders go close to zero (maybe they're experimenting?) ---- No offense, but as far as aftermarket chassis's go, I wouldn't consider LSR to be one of the cutting edge builders.

To me, a nominal amount of rake is only common sense. Honda uses about 14° on the newer quads. Think about what the suspension is doing when it encounters irregularities in the surface being ridden upon & it will all be clear.

Suspension travel---- here's a long discussion.

First things that needs saying is: shock length has absolutely NOTHING to do with suspension travel.

Now that we've got that out in the open, we must next realize that just because an ATV gets "more" travel out of a shorter shock, it does not mean it's a "more advanced design" --- actually quite the opposite.

Getting more travel from a shorter shock is done by increasing the leverage ratio - this increases the forces placed upon the shock and demands upon the shock - more about this later.

Now - the whole reason behind using longer shocks on an ATV front end (usually termed "long travel") - is not to gain wheel travel, it's to cause the shock to perform more favorably.

The next part of this is the control arm builder setting up the correct leverage ratio & mount locations to set the travel in the correct position in the chassis. A poorly setup front end (regardless of shock length) will allow the frame to bottom before the shocks do.

On the flip side, you also don't want the shock to bottom with too much frame to ground clearance, especially on the rear or poor handling will result.

Now - leverage ratio.... The lower the leverage ratio placed against the shock, the better the shock will perform. This is the real reason many serious riders go to 19" front shocks - although many don't understand the real reasons they work better.

A shock with a lower leverage ratio will be easier to tune, will have more adjustment, will have a wider "sweet spot", will require much less frequent rebuilding, will fade less, and will just generally perform better.

There is not a single advantage one to a higher leverage ratio and a shorter shock.

Linkage --- The linkage on the 450R is not really it's problem, it's the bottommed out frame height on the rear (which can be altered by changing the linkage). It actually is pretty close to right with 18" rear tires and maybe that's what Honda set it up for- to help the MX racer at the expense of the casual rider & XC racers using taller tires, hard to say.

When bringing this up, you have to also consider that both ATVs will have strong points and weak points. The rear end setup of the 450R may be a weak point - but the rest of the chassis and it's front end are it's strong points. The YFZ has some weak points and the chassis integrity seems to be one of them - however, it's got a lot of strong points as well.

Personally, I'd rather change a linkage out than be dealing with having to gusset the frame everywhere.

As far as racers switching, you brought up the point of "Z" racers immediately switching to the YFZ when it came out. That makes perfect sense - the YFZ was a big step up from a Z as a baseline. The TRX is more of a parallel step which is why YFZ owners didn't immediately switch like the exodus you saw when the YFZ came out. Why dump your YFZ when the TRX isn't going to offer any significant advantage?

Like I said before - had the TRX came out first you would have seen the same thing - "Z" owners abandoning them for 450Rs.

Really, I'm not saying that the YFZ is a bad machine, I never have - I'm saying the 450R isn't the inferior machine that it's been made out to be & there have been numerous things about it that have been blown way out of proportion by overzealous magazine writers and YFZ owners.

If you cover up the logos, look at the stats, the YFZ is a better machine than the HOnda

I don't agree - I think both machines have strong and weak points and there is no one clear "better" machine for everyone. Personally, the TRX was better for me. The YFZ may be better for you. "Better" is a very subjective term & when you're dealing with two as close as these are it's not really fair to call one universally better than the other.

In conclusion - I don't really care to try to make anyone think like I do - I just like to put the info out there that people tend to miss or not understand, whether they take the time to read, comprehend, and process it is their choice.

sparky450AR

05-01-2004, 05:51 PM

Scottie and ATC, you two say its nice to be able to debate...i love hearing and reading the smarts of what you guys have to say. ATC, you must be one of the most educated on this forum, hats off buddy. I'm glad the ATV industry has became this deep and competitive.

Thanks a lot, and debate on!

Bretmd94

05-01-2004, 06:13 PM

I dont really care what the magazines say. I love my 450r. I was at the track today and had no troubles with the front end coming up. I adjusted the shocks, put on holeshots, and it handles great. There is a tippy feeling in the corners still that i never had with my 400ex. But after some long travel suspension and zps shocks thats not going to be a problem at all.

I raced one guy on a yzf450 at the track last week. I kicked his ***. We both had the same amount of mods. It really didnt seem like he was cornering any better than me. A 250r at the track today though jsut pwn3d me though. He had a 310 pv i think (i know the motor was very built) and he had lone star long travel arms and Elkas. He was also a bit better of a rider. Im not sure if i want to race tomorrow and get beat by a couple 250r's.

Anyways, yes the YZF is better stock vs stock, but after mods..... You can make any bike do anything. Look at Gust and his Suzuki. He makes that insanly modded z400 just walk over a lot of 450r's and yzf's. In otherwords, for modded, it depends on the aftermarket setup and the rider. As long as the motors have close to the same hp (which they do).

SuzukiRacr07

05-01-2004, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by joe1l
Thats funny DW, and ATV Sport are both owned by the same company (Hight Torque pub.) Now i subscribe to all 3 magazines and get annoyed month after month when I read the same BS articles in each magazine, just written differently. ATV Sport seems as if it is in bed with DW also as I notice similar articles in ATV sport too. Anyhow, when it comes down to it, Honda's atv costs 400 cheaper than a YFZ, If take that 400 and add a high comp piston and a cam....guess who in front again?? This way, Honda still has a reliable quad for the novice and weekend warrior, and for the true enthusiast, he can spend the $400 on making his quad faster!! People forget about that little price difference!
:eek2:

I can care less which quad is better overall or wins a dw shootout, I just my atv's RED!!!

Pappy please lock this thread before more flames come towards our precious honda. :blah: then do the cammod to the YFZ (yes its free).... guess whos in front again??

thomez

05-01-2004, 07:41 PM

In what single way, performance wise, is the 450R a better quad than the YFZ? I just haven't seen a single solid answer to that question, yet.

jarsong

05-01-2004, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by thomez
In what single way, performance wise, is the 450R a better quad than the YFZ? I just haven't seen a single solid answer to that question, yet.

Brakes and a comfy seat. That's about it.
jarsong

jb500ex

05-01-2004, 09:49 PM

i ride with a yfz everytime i ride and i haven't seen where it is faster yet either. atc post was very good and had alot of good points. all the yfz guys keep saying how fast and great their bikes are but i have not seen it yet. and if anyone on here is that group of three yfz guys at rauch creek 2 weeks ago you better not say how great the yfz is. they had everymod under the sun and i went blowing buy the a couple of times with my stock motored and suspension 450r and you would hear them trying too keep up but they couldn't

SuzukiRacr07

05-01-2004, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by jb500ex
i ride with a yfz everytime i ride and i haven't seen where it is faster yet either. atc post was very good and had alot of good points. all the yfz guys keep saying how fast and great their bikes are but i have not seen it yet. and if anyone on here is that group of three yfz guys at rauch creek 2 weeks ago you better not say how great the yfz is. they had everymod under the sun and i went blowing buy the a couple of times with my stock motored and suspension 450r and you would hear them trying too keep up but they couldn't then they suck at riding because the YFZ definitely has more power and most R people actually do admite that, but then they come up w/ sum other stuff to make the R sound better.... i hav a YFZ and it is not doubt better for MX and duning IMO.... I hav ridden a R and like it in the woods better..... but for my applications, the YFZ is the right quad for me

Manny55

05-01-2004, 11:51 PM

Man i went to sand lake today and i wanted to drag a yfz450 so bad. But no yfz450 would drag today for some reason. Its like they were hidding but its all good whatever.

Fuchs42

05-02-2004, 03:22 AM

Basically it comes down to weather you like RED or BLUE

I've owned 2 hondas. They have been very good reliable bikes. This is why im buying a 450R. Im not dissing the YFZ's reliability. Im just saying i sat on both and i like Hondas. Just my opinion

Fuchs42

05-02-2004, 03:22 AM

Scottie Mac

05-02-2004, 06:39 PM

ATC,

I think you are a long lost relative or something. I can debate with you and it can remain adult instead of the generic my quad is better than your quad because............. stuff.

I do have a couple of questions, though. Frame integrity? Where have you seen frame problems? I know Randy Lehr broke his frame, but few people ever ride like that kid. Honda makes good products, but I have seen my share of 400ex frames crack all over the place. I have said all along, ALL stock frames WILL break if you plan on MXing. Heck, a lot of aftermarket frames break. Physics alone is reason enough, if you drop a 350lbs quad frame to the ground after a 60-70 foot jump, over and over, it will break. Thats why we have gussets. Also, like you said, the YFZ has been around for almost a year now, when the Honda has been beaten on that long, we can compare frame issues.

I still don't understand why you are so concerned about rake? The Z, EX, 250R all have similar designed front ends. In fact, you can use a Honda front end on a Zuki with the additon of a couple of washers. I had a Z as well, and handling wise, the zero rake YFZ handles all situations better. (again, opinion, but backed up by a ton of people who turn faster laps on the YFZs than they ever did on the Z)

Back to the original topic. The only thing that bugs me about the way Honda guys complain about thise stupid shoot outs is the excuses. Paid off, favortism, lunar eclypses, etc, etc. Do you guys really think any of the mags should have named a quad that doesn't have as much stock hp, doesn't have as much travel, doesn't use the next generation mx bike style linkages, doesn't have electric start (like I said, a biggie for some folks) doesn't have the OPTION of a kicker, and produces slower lap times by all the testers? I agree with you that just because a mag, or four, names one quad a "almighty shoot out winner" doesn't mean it is for everyone. But mags should name a winner. EVERYONE b1tches when they give the the lame..... "all these quads are winners" bs. Why have a shootout if you don't proclaim a winner. Honda itself proclaimed the TRX450R as a race inspired ATV, geared and designed for the track. SO, when you compare the two quads that make up that segment of the sport, the one that is best for that intended purpose should win. And, in my opinion, it did. Until someone can come up with more advantages other than a softer seat and brakes, I don't see how anyone with an open mind could say otherwise.

Again, not for everyone, but when you have a shootout, contest, back yard basketball game,etc between two combatants, there is always a winner, there is always a second place. Notice I did NOT say loser.

Scott

root

05-02-2004, 07:07 PM

When you guys speak of the frame's rake, what are you refering to. Are you refering to the orientation of the front shocks. When I look at pictures I notice how the front shocks on the trx are angled while the yfz's are more vertical. Is this what you guys are refering too???

twisted threads

05-03-2004, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by Manny55
Man i went to sand lake today and i wanted to drag a yfz450 so bad. But no yfz450 would drag today for some reason. Its like they were hidding but its all good whatever.

Manny55 I went to sand lake today and there were some YFZ at the drag hill. My brother with his trx450r beat every one of them, even my 440 was beating some of them my 440 would also beat the stock trx450r also!! There was only one YFZ that was a little bit faster... they would go back and forth but the kid had cams, 13:1 piston ( im not sure if it was a bigger size) and a full system Yoshi Ti , the kid on the YFZ said he was impressed with the Honda. IM very, very happy with the TRX450r! it handles awsome, has lots of bottom mid and top end power. My wife rode my brothers trx450r most the day and she dont even like the 440 any more....LOL I guess Im going to half to buy a TRX450r:D

Scottie Mac

05-03-2004, 07:48 AM

Oh well, I guess ATC and I will have to find another thread to talk/debate, because this sum-b1tch is about to get locked for sure......

Scott

Pappy

05-03-2004, 08:07 AM

I deleted all the BS about the drugs. Its not needed or wanted here.

Debate on!!

Gabe knows his stuff and i love reading his posts when he gets on a roll! I credit almost everything i've learned (technically) from him and few others.

Too many times a great thread is ruined by people spouting off, keep it real it can stay good!

thomez

05-03-2004, 08:14 AM

Spoken like a true Pappy :devil:

twisted - sounds impressive! I'm hoping to take an R for a spin later this week just to see how it compares to my ride. The owner is impressed with it and assures everyone that rides it they will come off a believer. I think he just forgets what some of us are accustomed to :p

xr50layke

05-03-2004, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by kamikaze_rzrbak
when it comes to dirtwheels shootouts, if the other quad has one tiny problem over the "better" one than the better one is the best on the planet and the bad one is the worst.

exactly, and i think almost every shootout isnt worth peoples time. they do reviews over that they did back in 88 like for the blaster :rolleyes: then after they give a shootout a winner, they got all these newbs praising the yfz and they dont know any better.

benwa450r

05-03-2004, 12:32 PM

From what I can determine, Yammy was built for MX and Honda built a multi-purpose bike with all kinds of riding in mind and not strictly for MX. Both are great bikes and both have plus- & - minus's. I love mine and would not give it up. Alot of times ( in the Dunes) I feel like I have a target on my back riding 450R. I have to admit, I used to line up next to Yammy 450 with 416EX just to see. I've Spanked and surprised alot of people too. Red or Blue, be happy we have them. It can only lead to better and better bikes. Let the debate continue......

__________________________________________________ _
2004 450R, HRC kit, Sparks stainless exhaust, Sparks air filter, 190 main, A/C nerfs, Razr MX, T9 rims, Renthal low-bend.

RMX500

05-03-2004, 01:02 PM

RED? .. BLUE?

I ride Silver. We don't b1tch about brands, we just ride. ;)

Fred55

05-03-2004, 06:35 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by joe1l
Thats funny DW, and ATV Sport are both owned by the same company (Hight Torque pub.) Now i subscribe to all 3 magazines and get annoyed month after month when I read the same BS articles in each magazine, just written differently. ATV Sport seems as if it is in bed with DW also as I notice similar articles in ATV sport too. Anyhow, when it comes down to it, Honda's atv costs 400 cheaper than a YFZ, If take that 400 and add a high comp piston and a cam....guess who in front again?? This way, Honda still has a reliable quad for the novice and weekend warrior, and for the true enthusiast, he can spend the $400 on making his quad faster!! People forget about that little price difference!

I can care less which quad is better overall or wins a dw shootout, I just my atv's RED!!!

Pappy please lock this thread before more flames come towards our precious honda.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ATVSport and DW are NOT published by the same company. ATVSport is SUCH a better magazine its not funny.

mispelledtatoos

10-20-2004, 05:26 PM

if you look in all the pictures the 450r always has the razr's and the yammy always have the klaws.

Ralph

10-20-2004, 05:56 PM

i remember the shoot out between 2 totaly modified 450's. r and yfz in atvsport.

they just ignore little things on the 450r that realy matter,

"WE COMPLETLY TORE DOWN THE YFZ AND COATED ALL THE BOLTS SO THEY DONT SEIZE UP, BUT WE DIDNT HAVE TO DO IT ON THE 450r becuase their already all zinc coated.

they acted like it was a bad thing NOT to have to tear down an entire bike to coat every bolt.

Then they try to compare the handeling of the 450r and yfz with aftermarket parts. "The yfz realy needed the long travel as to the 450r wich the std travel worked fine on." then in the end "THE YFZ OUTHANDLED THE 450r MAKING THE 450r FEEL LIKE A TERD ON WHEELS"

they are just so stupid.

What about the shootout with the yfz,r, and z400 where they spent the same amount of moeny on each quad to make it race ready for an everyday rider. THAT WHOLE ARTICLE WAS A BIG ADVERTISEMNENT. AXIS SHOCKS ON A BUDGET QUAD, THE DEDUCTED 60$'s each on every quad for a K&K graphics kit, bumper and other random unimportant parts, But then they diss the 450r and say it had horrible bump steer when it was the only one they didnt give a steering dampner too...

i think what they do is pretty low but it pays the bills...

chris450R

10-20-2004, 07:47 PM

ok all i have to say is honda is better IMO. this last weekend i rode a friends yfz at the track. it has a full hmf exhaust, filter, nerfs, handlebars, and new tires. my 450R has full sparks exhaust, nerfs, new tires, handlebars, and filter. i didn't like the yfz at all. the power didn't feel no where as good as my 450R. and i did ride it hard and opened it up. it pulled a wheelie really easy not tryin but just didn't feel comfortable on it at all. oh i test rode it in a field not on the track. i would never sacrifice ridin one on the track and hurting my self because it sucks. and i would never let anyone else ride the 450R on the track either. i mean that would like askin me to just die or something. and on the track ever yfz i have raced hasn't really impressed me or really give me a run. my friend sure hasn't. well that is all, just wanted to share my opinion. chris

gottaluvit

10-20-2004, 11:09 PM

heys guys,

i have read lots about the different pipes on this thread. I haven't read much on sound levels. I want to get a pipe that preforms well and that has a quiet insert that will get me by the sound police. I want to be able to ride at such places as Sand Lake. I think the max level is 96. Do any of you know? I tried looking on a few websites at different pipes but they never list the sound level. Any suggestions. Thanks.

10-21-2004, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by markeg192
Dirtwheels is written to entertain High School kids. Just read a review of the Blaster and see what you think about that.

lol good one!!

the Z Man

10-21-2004, 10:48 AM

I heard that a Blaster with a pipe can beat a 450r in a drag race,,,

10-21-2004, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by Scottie Mac
Excellent post! I don't think Pappy is the only one who is unbiased, sounds like you are as well.

Scott

sounds like someone is in love
;)

911

10-21-2004, 05:57 PM

[ I hate to say it, but the Honda isnt up to snuff against the YFZ...even if you think the mags (ALL OF THEM) are biased against Honda, it's hard to believe that the mags would risk making Honda mad just for a few bucks. i hate to say it but.....i raced neatv on a stock trx450r, the only mods are a slip on and holeshots.All ove the yfz's i raced had buko bucks into them and i took the championship:D mater of fact the 2nd place yami was 15,000 deep into his quad:p so what does that tell ya:D :macho

TheFontMaster

10-21-2004, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by 911
[ I hate to say it, but the Honda isnt up to snuff against the YFZ...even if you think the mags (ALL OF THEM) are biased against Honda, it's hard to believe that the mags would risk making Honda mad just for a few bucks. i hate to say it but.....i raced neatv on a stock trx450r, the only mods are a slip on and holeshots.All ove the yfz's i raced had buko bucks into them and i took the championship:D mater of fact the 2nd place yami was 15,000 deep into his quad:p so what does that tell ya:D :macho

That it takes alot of money to get a yammaha up to race specs.

Kennethyfz450

10-21-2004, 07:57 PM

scottie mac do you ever go to yfzcentral??

The yfz has more usable power than the r....

example 1. the 400ex doesnt have as much power as the yfz. (we can all agree on that) why is it that i can floor my yfz and it wont come up on small hills, and as soon as i floored my ex it would come up??

did i notice that when i owned my 400ex.. (nope i thought it was the best thing since sliced bread and their was no way i was going to buy any 450!) i thought it was the best hill climbing stock bike i could buy right off the showroom floor without doing anything to it.. people used to tell me it had light front end and i disagreed calling them stupid or they just cant ride good enough.. come to find out they was right !! i got on my old 400ex after being on my new yfz for 6 months the 400ex would come up easier on the hills and was a little tippy going through the trails... i couldnt believe it... i guess i had my 400ex so long i just got used to sitting where i was supposed to set.. i made myself comfortable in a sitting postion while going up hills that i couldnt find now if my life depend on it... i tried to go up a few steep banks that i went up on my yfz with ease , and it either wanted to lug out or wheelie....

the whole point of the example is (it shows how easy it is to get used to something and how you over look small things like that)

so i really do believe when honda450r owners say their front end isnt light because they are not used to riding the yfz on a daily bases and are not use to the luxuary of not worring about the front end going skyward on you...

i hope that made since lol

dont get me wrong i still love my old 400ex .. i just sorta lost my touch on it a little after i got my yfz..the yfz spoiled me a little on the hill climbs .. :D

Kennethyfz450

10-21-2004, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by chris450R
ok all i have to say is honda is better IMO. this last weekend i rode a friends yfz at the track. it has a full hmf exhaust, filter, nerfs, handlebars, and new tires. my 450R has full sparks exhaust, nerfs, new tires, handlebars, and filter. i didn't like the yfz at all. the power didn't feel no where as good as my 450R. and i did ride it hard and opened it up. it pulled a wheelie really easy not tryin but just didn't feel comfortable on it at all. oh i test rode it in a field not on the track. i would never sacrifice ridin one on the track and hurting my self because it sucks. and i would never let anyone else ride the 450R on the track either. i mean that would like askin me to just die or something. and on the track ever yfz i have raced hasn't really impressed me or really give me a run. my friend sure hasn't. well that is all, just wanted to share my opinion. chris

that was the biggest line of bs i ever heard lol

either the guys yfz was sick or it wasnt jetted right.. because the power should be about the same besides his should be harder hittin and not as smooth as the honda..

every guy that has riden my yfz that owns a 450r told me mine hit harder but the thought theirs stayed on the powerband longer. i donnt know cause i didnt ride the honda .. i was feeling sick at my stomach and i was watching them jump around and climb some hills on my bike.. lol

chris450R

10-21-2004, 10:07 PM

and you would know that i was spittin bs because you rode mine and his right? no. yes his is jetted right and mine is too. he has no lid with a fatter jet and have a modded lid(not like hrc lid, alot different, not as open) and i have a samller jet. yes mine feels like it stays in the powerband loner and smoother, but it still feels faster than his yfz. i just didn't like the power deliver. yes it hit hard and pulled strong but i still thanks my 450R pulls harder. i mean i am not just makin $hit up, it is what i feel and think about it. and where i said that no yfz i have raced has really impressed me is because there hasn't been one that has had really anything done to it besides a pipe. now i have seen a couple of guys around here with some that just absolutely rip! but i also think that a 450R with the same mods would be right there with them. i have also seen one 450R line up against 3 other yfz's with about all the same amount of work done and the 450R pulled the holeshot on them every time. maybe because his skill maybe not. and yeah i am really tired of the mags downin the 450R and praisin the yfz because they all just seems to be such biatches about it that i don't even like reading it anymore. c-ya, chris

Scottie Mac

10-22-2004, 05:38 PM

Some of you guys REALLY spend too much time worrying about what the mags say. I think it is funny. WHO CARES. If you like your (insert particular quad here) then does it really matter if the mags or someone you DON'T know on the internet doesn't?

IMO the YFZ is a WAY better quad for what I do (well, did) MX. But, that is my opinion. I KNOW there are guys who believe the exact opposite, more power to them. IMO the Honda is a better trail machine, again, there are guys out there who would disagree with this also, WHO CARES?

Grow up, enjoy your ride and whine less. This is not meant for any one person, just a way of life I think more people should live by.

Peace,
Scott

OneFast450R

10-22-2004, 09:07 PM

hey scottie mac did u use to work at extreme powersports at lake anna?

300extreme#8

10-23-2004, 10:50 AM

ok if they say the yfz is so much better y are they the ones not winning races these days,all i see are 450rs winnin around here unless there r only all yfzs in 1 race, and i didn't see many yfzs win in nationals either, just 450rs and suzukis,,yfzs r good quads and fast but theres just more too it then what dirtwheels say

woodside83

10-23-2004, 01:11 PM

i have both 04 honda and 04 yamaha, i think that the yamaha is better it is very stable and it seems to me to me lower center of gavity, it hooks up better it dose not wheelie as easy. when you when i have taken both the a practice track in tn at the starting gate the yfz you could just give it a hand full of gas and the frount end did not whant to raise at all the honda wanted to rase a lot more and wanted to tip a lot more than the yama. But i am not bashing honda at all i use my 450r in xc and with the light front it is easy very easy to lift the frount over a tree limb or any thing else for that mater. as far as jumping i like the yfz it dose have more shock travel, but it helps in big jumps, and flies smooth. in my opinon it just depends on what you like or ride i think on the mx track the yfz is better and on the xc the honda is good.

iceracer65

10-23-2004, 01:23 PM

i raced 4 gnc tt's with my VERY stock 450r...it was easily the most stock/least expensive quad in both classes that I ran. my best finish was 3rd place in the 4 stroke A class in greenbriar arkansas.

both machines are weapons, but you still have to be able to ride!!:muscle:

I probobly wouldve done that well on either machine...it was in my hands.

Scottie Mac

10-23-2004, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by iceracer65

both machines are weapons, but you still have to be able to ride!!:muscle:

I probobly wouldve done that well on either machine...it was in my hands.

Awesome post, finally someone who understands that the greatest quad in the world is no more than an expensive yard ornament without a good rider...........

Onefast450r-

yes, unfortunately, I used to be the manager at the Lake Anna store of Extreme Powersports. I have moved on from that debackle.

Scott

hondaracer305

10-24-2004, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by ATC83
They liked the power, handling and geometry better on the Yamaha. They really didn't like the light front end on the Honda for motocross. I would have to agree with them on that. I've only ridden 450R a couple of times but I noticed that the front end was light. It really bothered me on the track because I was always thinking about it and having to compensate for it. A good motocross bike should have a neutral geometry. You shouldn't have to adjust your riding style to compensate. I'm sure it can be fixed with a longer swing arm. Tim Farr runs a longer swing arm, I think it is a plus 1-1/8". What bothers me is that Honda should have got the geometry right before they started selling these bikes. There is no excuse for a company as big as Honda. With all the money they have for R&D to not get the geometry right is ridiculous. Why should you have to go out and spend $1500 on a swing arm and shock in order to have the correct geometry.

You act like its the end of the world that the front end is light, that hardly has anything to do with its geometry, mine soars through the air better than ANYTHING ive ridden, and who says you have to go buy a swingarm, i can deal with it just fine, you just gotta SHIFT YOUR WEIGHT a little more which is what MX is all about, give me any 450r and i can sink that front end onto a landing ramp like nothing, dirtwheels just picks the smallest thing to complain about and makes it seem like honda half-*****ed it which is totally incorrect.