Well what is it...rider or quad

[Pappy]

I will start that i probably have said it myself....that the top riders can win on just about anything.


but with the gnc season in full swing ive seen excuses starting to pop up. if the above statement is really true then why are some of people coughing up excuses as to why some of the top riders arent doing as well as years past.


is it a combination of a good quad and great rider....

or a great quad and a good rider.....

tell me what ya think:p

[racerx573]

Great quad + great rider = championships.

I.E. 250R + Jeremiah Jones = #1 Plate

and although Ballance has been winning like no other, he wouldn't need to be pulling these come from behind wins if he was on his R..

(bet you can't guess what I ride... lmao)


In all honesty it's mostly rider, but with Jones and Ballance in particular...since they were riding R's for pretty much all their careers, then had to make the switch, of course they're going to need to fine tune their skills; whereas much of the competition had switched to a 4 stroke prior to this year; those riders have an obvious advantage.

But, if you're fast, you're fast no matter what you're riding... I guarantee the pros would smoke all the C & B riders on a Blaster....


Just my thoughts...

[quadrcr161]

Originally posted by Pappy
I will start that i probably have said it myself....that the top riders can win on just about anything.


but with the gnc season in full swing ive seen excuses starting to pop up. if the above statement is really true then why are some of people coughing up excuses as to why some of the top riders arent doing as well as years past.


is it a combination of a good quad and great rider....

or a great quad and a good rider.....

tell me what ya think:p

its a combination of both. a great rider can make up for it on a slower quad b/c of experience. but a sucky rider will not qualify on Gust z400 or timmys 450R. you have to have an ok quad to start off but noone will do any good on a POS.

[Ryan]

Some guys like Gust are adapting very well to the 4-strokes. I guess others (Jones) arn't :o . Then again Gust has had a year of practice with his thumper.


I'd say wait untill the end of the season and hopefully everyone will be in full swing! I think these guys just need more practice and get their bikes setup right!

JMO

[lt250r91]

It's the rider.

This year is a little different though with the switch to production based machines. Because of this I feel this year the answer would be neither the rider or the quad, but I falls on the builder/ setup guy. With most of the pros switching to different machines it's a learning curve to find out what works with what quad.

A good example would be Chris Borich in the GNCC. I is an up and coming young pro rider who is extremely fast and is on one of the top quad this season (yfz450) but the have found out that the suspension craters heavier riders (175+) with him being lighter he and his mechanic has struggle to get the suspension dailed into his liking.

So this season the championship in the atv world I feel will be one by the best rider/mechanic/quad combo. And this will be deteremined by who gets the machine dailed in the quickest.

Again look at the GNCC's the pros that are out front in the points (Bill Ballance, Yokely, Duvall) all spent time last season switching to the new quads and testing set-ups. This has paid off big time and they are ahead of the rest because of this. Look on the GNC side. Samething there Gust is out front and he has more R & D on that Suzuki than the competition.

If a pro was to switch back to the 250r he would dominate, not because of the quad, but because the quad and racer have years of experience setting the machine up to each track.

[XANDADA]

My guess goes to at the Pro level of riding 80% rider & 20% quad.

[seatec]

Don't mean to hi-jack the thread but i don't understand the comment about the YFZ suspension favoring the heavier rider?
Isn't it true that most, if not all, pro riders replace all stock suspension components like shocks, Arms and swinger?
re you referring to where the suspension mounting points are?

[KY Woods Rider]

If you're talking only about the pro riders and their race quads, the quads are all set-up very well even if they aren't perfect, so I'd say it's about 90% rider and 10% quad in that scenerio.

In general though, I'd say it's about 60% rider and 40% quad. Think about this to see what I mean. If you put Jeremiah Jones or Bill Ballance on a bone stock 300EX, how fast are they going to be able to go? Now of course they're still going to be fast and they can push the quad well past what it was designed for, but can they still win on it? In the lower classes maybe, but definitely not the pro class, they'd be at so much of a disadvantage there's no way rider ability can overcome that.

Now, if you put Jones or Ballance on the 300EX and you give a novice their pro race quads, then Jones and Ballance are going to be much faster even though the novice is on a much better machine, so rider ability is more important.


Okay, here goes my ranting:o ...
I've seen the quad make a difference from firsthand experience. As some of you may know, I'm still in college and I'm darn near broke, so if I'm going to ride at all, I just have to ride something that is way below the type of machine I would be on if I could afford it right now. While that's the choice I made in hopes of being able to afford better quads in the future, for the last few years it has been a major annoyance for me.

When riding or racing, I'm stuck on a machine with a basically stock motor and stock suspension, while I sometimes have to ride or race against fully modded quads. The difference becomes apparent when riding. I can pull serious time on the lesser skilled riders when we get into the woods, but then I watch all that lead shrink quickly as we get into open areas and where there's big jumps. I'm riding my quad for all it's worth, but it simply can't do any more, while the riders who are of lesser skill but are on better quads reel me in every time it's a place where horsepower or suspension becomes important. While my better riding skills show up in the woods, their faster and better suspended quads make up for most of their lack of skill they when we come to an open section. When riding against someone of equal skill, I'm just hopeless if they're on a fully modded quad, because the only place I can stay pretty close is in tight woods, then I look like I'm backing up when we have to cross fields.

While it may not be the right thing to do, I've all but quit racing in the past year or so, because I don't even have a chance in the classes I should be riding based on riding ability, and I don't like signing up for C or D class just to be able to get a half-way decent finish. I was going to switch out some stuff and get my EX legal for stock class, but I'm just so fed up with not being able to ride the classes that I want to, I decided to just skip that idea too and wait until I can afford to build a decent quad.

[crayfz]

The setups seem to be alot differant from the r to the yfz. If you run the the front end with the same tow as a R, it will dart all over. It also seems like you have to muscle the yfz more then the R, Borich being so thin hasn't been able to muscle it around, although he seems to be putting on alittle bulk.
So 70% rider 30% set-up.

[Lil - Braff]

I personally think that it is mostly the rider b/c like someone else said if you took a slower rider and put them on a faster quad they are still gonna ride at their own speed. If you took a faster rider and put them on a slower quad they are going to ride and their speed and just push the quad to try to get it to go faster.
In the big open areas is where the "fast" part of the bike comes in b/c that don't take THAT much from the rider. Yes a faster quad might help a person to get faster, and once you get used to a quad then you are prolly faster also.
What is this about the YFZ being better for the "heavier" riders? I have not heard anything about this. Traci Cecco is not a "heavy" rider and she seems to be doing just fine on her YFZ. I don't know... JMO

[lt250r91]

#2 Chris Borich switch from his 250R to the YFZ hasn't been as smooth as it was for Bill Ballance, but alot of this has too do with his light weight. The YFZ suspension seems to work much beter for riders that weigh over 160lbs and the lighter riders like Chris. He has continually made changes to get it closier to his liking, and he is becoming more and more comfortable, so it will only be a matter of time

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This was posted on the coverage of round 6 GNCC at Lorretta's. I think Harlen or Chris could better explain the reasoning behind it.


As for the suspension and setup of these machines. Yes they all have aftermarket a-arms and shocks. But that doesn't make them the same from one to the other. Each rider has different styles of riding so the suspension settings are different for each and do to diffferent frame geometry and characteristics they can used the setup they have been using in the past. So every pro has to test and make adjustments by trial and error to get there machine the way the like it to allow them to ride WTFO. Until they have the machine to this point they are fighting the quad to go fast. Remember the faster the rider the more precise the machine settings have to be for it to work perfect. Yes the rider will play a big part in this season, but the setup is what will make or break this season.

Another example was Yokely as SC (Round 5) poor shock setup cause him to fight with his machine the entire race which he had to settle for a 7th place overall.

[redroost85]

I think all these guys are pretty right. It is mostly rider, but you have to have a decent machine in which to gage the rider with other riders.

Just an example....I race my average modified (not a lot, but some) 400 against yfz's, strokers of every kind, and some full on race quads. I believe myself to be a little better rider than some of those guys and have beaten them on the track. Pretty much, I push my 400 to the limits and it feels great beating the bigger quads and decent riders. Now that I am done tooting my horn...I'm done, lol!:p

[team_450_88]

You can only go as fast as the quad lets you and the quad can only go as fast as you make it !! :D

[SECCRS]

Yes I agree its alot to do with the rider, BUT perfect example of winning rider not winning races and I think due to the machine is William Yokley. This guy lives on a quad and his training in the off season I think there year has surpassed several others. But it really comes down to his Suzuki. He's underpowered,( yes I know some will say they dont need it) then if thats the case then why are all the top riders on 450's?? And why did they all give up the 250( yes I know not legal now) and the 400's?? I was really hoping Suzuki would come out with there 450 it was rumored that he had hopped on one. I sure hope to see this before the end of the season and see how competes with similar machine.

Doug Parker
Douglasparker@hotmail.com

[Scottie Mac]

From the gate to the first turn it is 80% quad 20%rider. After that it is basically the opposite.

No quad ever won a race without a rider.

Scott

[rowlrag]

Who wants to bet Brad Page wins an overall real soon! He's a good example of rider more than machine, sure he's been ridin and testin on th 450R, but he's only been in 2 races so far with 5th overall in both, and was 1min 3secs behind Ballance at Lorettas. :muscle:

[markk]

i think that most if it is the rider, just like someone else said 80%rider, and 20%bike, Just look how fast those guys go in stock class!!!

[batgeek]

ohhhh wouldn't a quad IROC style race be cool to watch?

at the pro level, the quads are pretty much at the same level. it's all about the rider, barring mechanicals and such.

[Johnny & Monica]

If you look at the c classes an b classes anything cann win 400ex`s an 250r`s are still hanging in there.I argree with the post on borich 2# was alot smoother on his 250r an any of the top 10 could still kick ars on there 250r`s if the where still aloud to ride them.That was yesterday...........

[400exdad]

90% Rider 5% Quad and 5% Luck..... :D The quad is actually more like 10%!

Here's why I think this.

Fitness - an out of shape rider cannot win when he is against a rider who is in good shape and conditioned. Weighting = 30%

Experience - just like the fitness thing, an inexperienced rider will not be able to utilize a quad to its fullest. As a matter of fact, a inexperienced rider will be faster on a less powerful quad. Weighting = 30%

Courage - this could be confused with stupidity, however, I believe that I was faster on my 300 than my 400. Why? A fractured tibia and the ache I feel every day or most days, makes me think twice before I push the envelope. Weighting = 30%

Quad - No matter how powerful or fast it is, a bad rider will still get beat by slower quads. This is especially true in the non professional classes. Weighting = 10%

Proof - Although I wasn't there, several of my friends are friends with Joe Byrd. They rode with him at LBL. He was on a bone stock 400EX and they were on 250R's, 416's and a 440. He would purposely let them pass him and then pick them off one by one all the way to the front. The ones who challenged him, usually regretted it. All of my friends who were there were good to very good riders with 4 to 10 years of quad riding experience, but were not pros. Joe, well he never broke a sweat! :D

[bradley300]

i think that any given quad can only be ridden so fast, and it takes a good rider to run any given machine to its full potential

[yamblaster200]

I race a bone stock 400ex in district 6 open c class. Now in that class i can on a good day finish in the top 10 out of 30+ guys. No one...and i mean no one is in that class that i have seen so far on a stock 400ex. That is the 80% rider factor allowing me to do that. My quad is capable of winning that class if i can get my riding better...mainly the fitness, which i believe makes up about half of the 80% rider ability. However, when i move up in class, like mabe the b class, there is no way the stock ex is going to be able to run with those guys. No matter how good i am, you can only go so fast on a stock 400ex. The only thing i don't understand is in one of the races i pulled 3rd off the start with like 25 quads in the field. I know mine was the slowest bike on the line, (400ex is the slowest in a drag against other machines in its category) And like someone posted earlier, the start is 80% quad. Also my buddy who races with me on an identical quad pulled 2nd off the start, but there were only 5 quads on the line, but still there was a cannondale, piped raptor and a blaster with a lot of work done to it behind him. I dont know what the percentages are...but i know if i had a faster, better handling quad it would make ME faster and make ME finish better in the races and thats what i care about.

[400exdad]

I was thinking about what I wrote last night... and decided to add something else. If you look at the pics I posted from the GNCC last night, check out the one of William Yokely where he is pushing the "envelope".... in other words hauling ***. :D I've been down that hill many times and it can be a little itimidating making the turn at the same time as the water breaks put you into the air.... What I am saying is CONFIDENCE. The good rider knows they can pull something off.

[Imapro]

400ex dad has it right on.

Rider=Conditioning.


i did some practice mx motos against a frind on a 440 ex and i was on my YFZ this past weekend. Similar riders, but i had a little more bike. I lead for 4 laps...then my 27 yr oldconditioning (sitting at a desk 5 days a week) kickedin and i got passed.

Even with my experience he stilllitme up because he's 16 and made of rubber and can run forever.

in the same way- my 16 yr old friend wasfinishing top 10 in his GNCC events on a stock 400 only because of his contioning.

[Ryan]

Its easier to be competitive on a slower machine (Then what everyone else is riding) in an XC race, but no so much in a MX race.

In motocross, Its all rider..... But the right machine and power plays a huge part!

[Out_Sider]

i'd have to say its even 50% rider, 50% quad. no matter how good you are, you can't win with a pos quad.

[brazilian rider]

It's all about the rider, years of years of racing I realized that